[Closed] 'absence from work' markers

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It could be lots of things, fair or unfair, maybe they are having a crack down on absenteeism.

Wait for the letter to arrive, see if what's written agrees with what has been said so far.

Make a decision from there, in the mean time try not to let it bug you both too much.

That'll be Bradford formula for you.

It was originally designed for use as part of the overall investigation and management of absenteeism. In contrast, if used as part of a very limited approach to address absence or by setting unrealistically low trigger scores it was considered short-sighted, unlikely to be successful and could lead to staff disaffection and grievances. The use of the Bradford Factor often provokes heated debate.[1]

shouldn't you be relieved that the company your wife works for has a policy on sickness, understands it, and applies it? Rather than the alternative of random decisions made by people with no guidance and less understanding?

each occasion being a couple of days with a cold or something like.

There's your problem, taking time off without being ill !

Comparing yourself to others with regards to sickness and absence length isn't always the best idea.
I used to have a member of staff who was fighting serious chronic illness but showed little outward sign. He would need periods off work for various related reasons, treatments etc. Meant he was off almost as much as present for about 10 months. He'd let me know at the beginning thoug and kept me in the loop at all times, even copying me into medical correspondence I had no right or need to see (I taught him what the word 'redacted' means!)
Anyway, he tried his best otherwise to not let his illness be known and didn't really talk to his workmates at first, which did lead to some resentment of him always being off sick, never disciplined etc....
Thing is, I could manage his illness and the impact it had on my department. The ones that caused issues were those who would be off for a day or so here or there, at very short notice. Normal sick people, if you will. Not saying they weren't always sick but an indicator for us of those who might be abusing the sick pay system to get a few days extra holiday a year was the amount of single day absence.
Everyone got an interview, everyone got a verbal warning at the appropriate marker. The irony of the warning is that those who had genuine illness tend to get upset by it but the ones you really want to warn, the sickness/holiday lot, didn't tend to give a monkeys. Nevertheless you'd have followed the process and were then able to hit them with the next disciplinary stage, etc...
Managing sickness and absence is a crap job. It is not uncommon for people to resent being told they shouldn't be off as often (even just 3 times in 12/12) but she shouldn't necessarily take it personally. The hr person, manager or whatever is simply doing their job.

Next time she has something nasty, she just has to make sure she goes in and passes it onto the boss/hr team. Revenge is a dish best served with a side-helping of norovirus.

My first boss said it was always better to be ill with something you can't spell and give florid details.

Guy I work with received a warning for his absences. He had no lessons on a Wednesday afternoon and would head home to work on development of courses. He also got flu and then post viral thing. So when signing out would say he felt awful and was going home to work. This went down as off due to illness. Called to hq for formal warning etc.

The point of the marker is supposed be that it's a flag, saying "discussion needed to find out cause of absence". If that discussion leads the manager to conclude that the sickness absence is being abused, a warning follows, but if the employee has been genuinely sick it shouldn't. In either case, the discussion should include what either party can do to minimise problems. An automatic warning defeats the whole point.

As Martin says above, take a nice bout of flu' to work. Once 80% of the team are off I suspect someone may rethink the policy. (I have experience of this where being off for niggling colds etc was frowned upon, there was a radical rethink when we were down to 2 operatives for 10 days. Being off for illness was then encouraged).

Ask them for clarification. Is she expected to come in or stay home when sick. If it's stay home then appeal any warning.

Next time she's visibly ill, preferably with something really contagious such as flu or one of those stomach bugs that mean you throw up while shitting on the pan, take her in yourself. Don't hang around or speak to anyone but be seen to have helped her to get to work.

On a more serious note, running an HR policy that effectively compels people with contagious illness to force themselves into work is not a good way to run a pharmacy. Staff will be in contact with vulnerable, frail and immune-suppressed patients on a regular basis.

It's pretty normal. We have this at work. After you hit a "trigger" point we get sent to our Occupational Therapist who says, "I don't know why your manager has sent you to me - I can see you've been off for a couple of colds and the shits and there are no underlying issues"

Wife's work is a bit more stringent and does send out written warnings etc and even dismisses people but I guess it's company policy and you have to have the same rules for everyone. The few that do take the piss seem to spoil it for the many.

OK. If its the pharmacy I think it is then on the 3rd absence it it a formal chat to see if there are any underlying issues etc. The colleague is then reminded of the absence policy and if there are any further absences then it may lead to further action ie oral recorded then written then final written etc. So yes you can be dismissed for 7 or 8 absences in under a year. It is not about wheather you are really sick or not. It is about not being fit enough to do the job you are employed to do. Continual repeated absence adds pressure to all your colleagues and no one wants someone with 7 absences in as many months working with them. But don't worry too much as it's in a 12 month rolling period so usually the earlier absences drop off before you are genuinely sick again so no further action is taken. Should be happy the employer looks after absence cos it can be a pain in the arse for everyone. How does your wife know others are treated differently ....What people say and the reality often differ. As said don't compare to others as you don't know what's going on with them.

You should have a day off if you cant work, having a cold may not mean you cant work. Most people push a mouse around and look at a PC.

If anyone I knew at my work place had a day off due to a cold Id be pissed off. They will only go home and expend the same energy browsing the internet, or using the TV remote.

I do think we have all turned into softies who believe we are owed way too much more than we actually deserve.

Wish they did this in my work. Too many free loaders constantly off sick. Some have had more sick days this year than I have had in all my working life (I'm 36 yrs old)and I'm talking a day here and a day there rather than a long period of sickness. Always seem to be towards end of the week too. Another giveaway for one guy is uploading a 80km ride the day after calling in sick. If you're that sick to need a day off threes no chance you'd be well enough to do that the next day.

Was it a verbal warning or a discussion of the her sickness, the policy and the next stage. Absence is absence whether you're ill or not, it causes huge issues to employers. A cold for a couple of days is not the flu. Wait to see what the letter says as I bet it's not as bad as you're excpecting.

I hit the trigger at our place last summer - 3 periods in 12 months. One was a viral problem that made me faint at work, one was when I put my back out getting milk out the fridge at work, so lots of witnesses, and then I had a month of with anxiety and depression. All either witnessed or signed off by the GP/mental health team.

It was just a chat as it was all legit. I've now been off for 3 months with further anxiety and depression issues, and I had another meeting with my boss last week along the lines of " if the GP and occupational health"can't come up with some reasonable adjustments to get me back to work, then eventually their patience will wear out"

Tough call if she is having time off for colds. These policies drive people to attend work when they have something relatively minor but contagious. In a pharmacy, where by definition you deal with a lot of elderly and poorly people, giving them the staff cold as well may have serious consequences.

We have the same policy where I work. All that's happened is that people come to work when they are sick and pass it around.

Just waiting for the pandemic that wipes out half the compnay..........

A written warning seems a bit harsh in the circumstances the OP describes, as others have said I would make a point in future of going in with a cold and spreading it around.

I saw my Bradford score the other day, and it wasn't good - into the action required bracket or something. That's a result of a bout of shingles, a few days (one incident) of D&V and one missed shift from head butting a tree falling off my bike and going to hospital for a CT scan of my head and neck. Fortunately my line managers apply common sense and do not give a monkeys about the score in light of the reasons for it. So it probably comes down to the line manager or HR people and whether they've got a brain in their head or not.

A written warning seems a bit harsh in the circumstances the OP describes, as others have said I would make a point in future of going in with a cold and spreading it around.

Good job it wasn't then.

Greatape that's the idea of the interview with it'll be easy to close of the one involving a CT scan but it's not for going off with a cold.

its a verbal warning. and when i say a cold, im maybe doing her a bit of a disservice as she does try and get in even when shes feeling 'grotty', these were occasions where she was tucked up in bed shivering etc but not flu. id say thats still not fit for work.

An automatic warning defeats the whole point.

i did think of dragging her into work when obviously poorly, sneezing away, and telling her bosses shes scared of more time off, i think thats the way id be acting if it were me, to bring the failings of automatic warnings to the fore.
got nothing against that system per se, just think common sense should apply when flagged up and i feel sorry for her fretting about getting ill. shes worked for them for 20 years-ish with an unblemished history and now she'll have this on her disciplinary record.

thanks for your views, interesting to read.

Suggest she needs some time off because of stress caused by the written warning.

A verbal won't be on her disciplinary record it'll be noted in the letter of reference but that's it.

A cold ? To one person thats flu to another thats skiving ?

I suggest;

she puts her view in writing as to why she was absent and comment that she is surprised by in her opinion unjustified reaction,
take some vitamin C so she doesn't get colds,
look for another job - this company sounds like one to move on from

Welcome to the future.

[img] [/img]

EDIT "take some vitamin C so she doesn't get colds"

*takes notes, not good ones*

Tricky, absence management.

IME Good employers have normal levels of human fatigue. Bad employers need brutal policies to overcome the shit environment they have created.

Three absences in twelve months is quite a lot though? Seems reasonable that the company would want to discuss it. As for how they treat other staff, there could be a lot more to it than your wife knows.

Take it all with a nod and a smile, let the dust settle then drop an anonymous tip of to the local newspaper that such and such pharmacy have people coming to work with flu and diarrhea due to absenteeism policy.

Three absences in twelve months is quite a lot though? Seems reasonable that the company would want to discuss it. As for how they treat other staff, there could be a lot more to it than your wife knows.

Still sounds to me that it wasn't a warning as such just a reminder of the policy that over 3 absences causes the next trigger point.

My ex-BIL was like myself never ill, but use to take off a week or so every year and say he was ill as the company had implemented a 3-strikes 'rule' and other folk were all taking their usual time off and then coming in ill until the end of the period...

When I started with the NHS the team I inherited had a really high level of sickness (even by the NHS's standards). I halved it with the year. I don't get ill and if you build a good team they won't just take days off (when they don't fancy coming in) as they won't want to let their colleagues down.

And I also pretty much ignored the 'numbers' from HR, as once I got it under control you knew when folk were actually ill.

When I started with the NHS the team I inherited had a really high level of sickness (even by the NHS's standards).

What is the standard NHS sickness level? You're post all makes sense except for this comment.

I don't see the problem here. The Bradford Score is a useful tool to manage absenteeism in a uniform way and so minimise risk of reprisal if sickness/absence is used as part of a disciplinary/dismissal process. If everyone is treated the same, and there's a clear multi stage process for managing all sickness/absence, it's a good thing.

On the other side of the coin, surely it's better if the company can use the score to get rid of someone taking the piss with fake sickness, rather than not having a process and so being stuck with an employee who isn't pulling their weight?

What is the standard NHS sickness level? You're post all makes sense except for this comment.

The NHS historically has higher-than-average levels of staff sickness absence compared with the workforce generally. I think he's saying his team were worse than the comparable average.

http://www.hscic.gov.uk/catalogue/PUB17903

http://www.personneltoday.com/hr/sickness-absence-rates-and-costs-revealed-in-uks-largest-survey/

Ambulance trusts have the worst figures, for some unfathomable reason.. 🙂

UK Labour force survey
[img] [/img]

Source ONS
http://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/labourproductivity/articles/sicknessabsenceinthelabourmarket/2014-02-25

[img] [/img]
Source HSCIC
http://www.hscic.gov.uk/catalogue/PUB17903

Figures for the latest quarter show:

• Between January and March 2015 the average sickness absence rate for the NHS in England was 4.44 per cent, an increase from the same period in 2014.

• The North East HEE region had the highest average sickness absence rate for January – March 2015 at 5.15 per cent. North Central and East London HEE region had the lowest average at 3.61 per cent.

• Ambulance Staff were the staff group with the highest average sickness absence rate for January – March 2015 with an average of 6.78 per cent. Nursing, Midwifery and Health Visiting Learners had the lowest average at 1.22 per cent.

• Amongst types of organisation, Ambulance Trusts had the highest average sickness absence rate for January – March 2015 with an average of 6.44 per cent. Clinical Commissioning Groups had the lowest average for this period, with a rate of 2.78 per cent. Figures for the annual summary show:

• The national annual sickness absence rate has fallen each year between 2009-10 to 2011-12. It fell from 4.40 per cent in 2009-10 to 4.16 per cent in 2010-11 to 4.12 per cent in 2011-12. It rose to 4.24 per cent in 2012-13 and then fell to 4.06 per cent in 2013-14. It rose to 4.25 per cent in 2014-15.

Higher quality post with graphs and excerpts slowed you right down there.

The NHS historically has higher-than-average levels of staff sickness absence compared with the workforce generally.

Maybe because private companies sack people too easily?

Ambulance trusts have the worst figures, for some unfathomable reason..

I can't possibly think why.

took me an extra 40s to remember how to screen shot on the chromebook to extra the graph from a pdf. I'm a pro. 🙂

I can't possibly think why.

you've answered your own question - it's because the malingerers can't be sacked as easily, obviously!

Or does your argument only work in one direction?

Thanks Stoner, so in reality not really that much higher than the UK average.

No why would it work one way? We very much support staff through sickness offering them various treatments and options at a cost to assist them back to work. Also due to the nature of the job there is many absences which means they can't be at work, with limited alternative duties staff have little choice at times.

I can't possibly think why.

Coffee and doughnut toxicity.

Thanks Stoner, so in reality not really that much higher than the UK average.

Quite a bit, really. I'm seeing a UK average of 2%ish, and an NHS average of around 4%. There's obviously good reasons for it - stressful, exposure to pathogens, and staff are generally clever enough not to come in when they've got the raging shits.

errrmmmm.

For the same period (2013) that is covered by the two charts, NHS absence averages, say, 3.9%.

UK Labour force absence rate (assuming 50:50 male/female employment, which we know it isnt, but it tends the sum to your favour) averages say 2.1%.

So NHS absence is 85% higher than the national average.

Wrong service.

The national annual sickness absence rate has fallen each year between 2009-10 to 2011-12. It fell from 4.40 per cent in 2009-10 to 4.16 per cent in 2010-11 to 4.12 per cent in 2011-12. It rose to 4.24 per cent in 2012-13 and then fell to 4.06 per cent in 2013-14. It rose to 4.25 per cent in 2014-15.

So at 3.9% it was lower that national which says 4.06%?

Hmm possible reasons why the NHS might have higher than average sickness rates. It can't possibly be anything to do with the fact that the staff come into contact with more ill people than the general public. It also can't possibly be anything to do with making sure that when they are ill that they don't pass things round the other patients thereby making them worse.

Nope it can't be anything like that they must all be skivers and malingerers!

The "National" in that context I think means "Nationally" across all NHS trusts and sectors. Not entire national workforce.

Nope it can't be anything like that they must all be skivers and malingerers!

youre just no fun gonefishin.

Yeeeesssss, martin and I are teasing Drac. Noooooooo, we dont genuinely believe the NHS are full of skivers and malingerers. Yesssssssss, there are real data illustrating a substantial variation between NHS absence and the rest of the UK workforce. Sooooooooo let's look at reasons for the variation rather than knee-jerk "must protect the NHS from criticism" auto-response.

Although I have to go and look for a new mower right now.

I've had 5 days in the last 2 weeks. 2 last week and 3 this week. Horrible constipation, bloody agony FWIW. Possibly due to Champix tablets?

"National" in that context I think means "Nationally" across all NHS trusts and sectors. Not entire national workforce.

Ohhhhhh! 😳

must protect the NHS from criticism" auto-response.

Or stop the pointless mentioning of the NHS in a critical manner? 😀

It makes sense to me NHS workers are off sick more. They deal with sick people, so come in to contact with disease, so have more chance of contacting illness.
And they're under massive stress while being overworked.

Or stop the pointless mentioning of the NHS in a critical manner?

l8r.

Peace out!

[img] [/img]

I used to work for the NHS. In management, so my absence rate was puny compared with you frontline skivers. 😀

<Cue pantomime villain hissing at NHS Managers>

It's OK though, my role was a waste of space and resources, so I, errr, managed myself out.

UK Labour force survey

It's s shame there isn't a corresponding set of data for actual illness rates, as it could just be falling because employers are getting tougher on legitimate absenteeism, or because people are skiving less, or because people are less ill...

@sadexpunk. The trouble with managers applying common sense is it upsets people. Why should one illness be OK yet another not OK. Managers are not qualified doctors so often have to go with a one size fits all approach or else they get accused of discriminating against xy or z. Whether you are off sick because of a cold or a triple heart by pass you are still off work. What type of absences should be OK and what should not...hard to judge.

[i]It makes sense to me NHS workers are off sick more. They deal with sick people, so come in to contact with disease, so have more chance of contacting illness.
And they're under massive stress while being overworked. [/i]

Nope, we were an admin function.

tbh 5h1t management is my normal answer, and a seemingly bizarre approach where everyone knows that how they are working/managing is wrong but they just carry on doing it 'cos everyone else does.

At an individual level the best way to deal with this sort of bureaucratic idiocy is to vote with your feet and find a job elsewhere.

Something really weird happened to me... I was off enough times to start The Process, and my boss sat me down and said "Are you alright? Anything we can do? You don't look too good tbh, I think you came back too soon, bugger off home". What's [i]that[/i] all about?

I have fond memories of the bank of scotland process, where I got told I should do more to avoid illness, after I fractured my hip. Then I went back a bit too early, hurt it, had to take more time off, got pulled up again for "too many incidences of illness". Everyone in the company knew how to work the numbers- never be off for one day, avoid patterns, basically all ways to ensure that even legitimately ill people end up skiving because the system will punish them if they don't.

Something really weird happened to me... I was off enough times to start The Process, and my boss sat me down and said "Are you alright? Anything we can do? You don't look too good tbh, I think you came back too soon, bugger off home". What's that all about?

That's how it's supposed to work.

Suggest she needs some time off because of stress caused by the written warning.

Which didn't happen.

Does that make it a psychosomatic illness?

[i]At an individual level the best way to deal with this sort of bureaucratic idiocy is to vote with your feet and find a job elsewhere. [/i]

Yep, didn't accept a contract extension. 🙂

OP she should look for another job, she can be fired with little option for come back with less than 2 years service

FWIW in Singapore some locals treat sick days as extra holiday, one of my team told me in advance which days she was going to be sick and always produced a doctors note when she came back 😯

In legal terms a 'verbal' warning is nothing - it's your boss saying 'I've had to have this conversation with you, this is what happens if I have to do it again'.

It's either in your HR file or it isn't. If it is then it's written.

just an update now that the letter has arrived......

blahdyblah absence is higher than the standard we expect at the Society, issuing you with an Absence Improvement Warning.....remain on file for 6 months.....within next 6 months onitor attendance....if future absence levels are more than one occasion a further warning could be issued for frequent absence.... you have right to appeal.....

so....my feelings are that she should appeal. shes always said throughout the years how people take the p1ss there with nothing said, weeks off at a time, 2 days back, weeks off again, playing the system. there is obviously the chance that others are being spoken to behind the scenes and she doesnt know, but as a manager came into the shop to interview her there, then she thinks she would have known if this happened to others.

yeah, first world problems and all that, especially today, but i still feel a sense of injustice for her and think she should appeal on the grounds of inequality of treatment.

interested in others opinions

thanks

Go off with stress caused by the letter. That'll teach em.

FunkyDunc - Member

each occasion being a couple of days with a cold or something like.

There's your problem, taking time off without being ill !

I had one of these once and replied asking for written guidance of what I should do if I do fall ill and where to draw the line in terms of symptoms, etc. Basically worded it as if I was awfully keen to avoid tripping any more sanctions but was powerless to prevent getting ill. Eventually got an apology from HR for being too heavy handed with the policy.

Don't fancy your chances of appeal on your reasons. Reason for appeal is usually a process not followed or punishment is unduly harsh not that you don't like the outcome. The onus would be on your wife to prove she is treated different and they will just say 'she is not, where's your proof. We cannot discuss others due to confidentiality'. Don't worry about others, if your wife has passed the marker just accept it and move on.

@Bruneep. Going off with stress is not the answer. All that may do is rack up another absence and lead to an escalation of the warning. Not clever or helpful to the OP.

i would imagine it was tongue in cheek mate 🙂

also not expecting anything from an appeal, just a show of 'not laying down and accepting a warning just cos shes an easy target' type of thing.

I had one of these once and replied asking for written guidance of what I should do if I do fall ill and where to draw the line in terms of symptoms, etc. Basically worded it as if I was awfully keen to avoid tripping any more sanctions but was powerless to prevent getting ill. Eventually got an apology from HR for being too heavy handed with the policy.

thanks

Trouble is these days companies have to treat everyone the same - the pisstakers, the grafters whoever.

They have to follow the script and in all likelihood if your wife is a good employee it'll be a case of 'well we had to call this interview but off you go'. They can't take a common sense approach becuase if they want to come down on a pisstaker and that person finds out your wife (for example) never even had a formal interview they can kick up a fuss.

FWIW Mrs Danny has a Bradford trigger of 60 and is currently scoring at somewhere in the region of 770 - she has just had her stage one interview and been told not to worry, just going through the motions etc.

Stevious' solution is the way to go.

Work for a American Biotech company, they get really really unbelievably hacked off if you come in with so much as a sniffle. I got lectured for coming in once!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presenteeism

A pharmacy should know better, you are potentially coming into contact with immune compromised patients.

Tom not every absence is due to a contagious disease. And maybe she works on the perfume counter in the pharmacy.........or should absenteeism be encouraged just because you work in a pharmacy. It's the fact you are out that is the issue. Not the reason. Things are not black and white.

A pharmacy should know better, you are potentially coming into contact with immune compromised patients.

and what a great place to pass on viruses and sickness, then sell the customer an expensive over the counter medicine and get their freinds in and infect them, a good way of increasing profits for a pharmacy.

If your wifes sick shes sick, just ignore them and appeal and as above ask what thier definaition of being sick is.