[Closed] Aargh, Farage returns...

What does any of it achieve? It’s much easier to appeal to people’s monkey-brain instincts of fear, jealousy, anger etc than it is to persuade people to be rational and nice. The internet is a giant division/hate machine that is proving this beyond doubt. We can be compassionate and reasonable all we like, it won’t achieve anything.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that insulting people entrenches them in their position. If you can't be civil, you're better off not talking to them at all.

I do think we shouldn’t be pigeon holing and digging at whole groups of people who hold different views and lumping them in with Mr F or calling people stupid on issues like masks and attitudes to lockdown.

I agree with this.

I have left-wing views, can't stand Farage and don't think COVID is a hoax.

But I do have serious concerns about the general long term impact that lockdowns and restrictions may have on society.

Looking at the problem in the round and balancing the health considerations against the impact on people's everyday lives - on jobs and mental health/well being.

I don't think these are irrational concerns to have. And yet, the only people I've seen who are broaching these topics are right wing commentators, the likes of Farage and co.

I understand what they're doing and why they're doing it. They benefit from this being a binary debate.

What does that achieve?

Catharsis?

There's a couple of comments here about not grouping... well, basically not stereotyping people, and not calling them names, and trying to reach them by less divisive means. We've seen this argument time and again since 2016, it's a laudable standpoint but there's one "elephant in the room" problem with it:

It doesn't work.

Because, I've tried. God knows have I tried. On STW, on Facebook, in 'real life,' from the referendum until we left, on pretty much a daily basis. And I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of leavers I've engaged with who didn't turn out to be either "I'm not racist but" or an abject shit-for-brains.

I've asserted on here multiple times that it's inaccurate and unfair to say that they're all idiots and I expect the reality is that the majority of leave voters voted on the day and then promptly forgot all about it to get on with their lives, but in the subset of brexies sufficiently driven to still be talking about it months or years later, by god do they have the monopoly.

It got to a point where I was playing 'Guess The Facebook Profile' Bingo. White, obvs; over 50; probably over 60; male; bald either by genetics or shaven; overweight; wearing a replica football shirt despite last kicking a ball when they were 16; went to the "school of hard knocks" before graduating from the "university of life"; banner picture is the Union Flag; public feed full of racist propaganda, "ABDUL WAS GIVEN A FREE GOLD HOUSE AND £100000000000000 IN BENEFITS PENISONERS GET 47 PENCE A YEAR SHARE IF YOU THINK THIS IS A DISC RACE"; the stereotype is real.

You can't have a reasonable conversation with these people because, ipso facto, they aren't reasonable. They come out with some random bobbins about using a lot of soy sauce on GBBO and how great it is that it'll be cheaper when we leave because something about EU taxes and Japan, you reply "well actually I think you'll find that the EU rate on soy sauce from Japan is zero but it will be higher under WTO and in any case the most popular soy sauce in the UK is made in Holland which is part of the EU27," they're not going to go "golly old chap, thank you for the correction, I had no idea," they just hear Mr Logic from Viz. And invariably they will then either get angry and abusive, change the subject or drop to radio silence. I've seen it time and time and time again.

They're not interested in education or learning, they just want to win. And the sad fact is that there are no winners here, we all lose collectively.

So what else have we got left other than going "well, you're clearly a ****ing moron" in exasperation and linking to the 'playing chess with a pigeon' meme?

What if that really is what it’s all about?

Think that one was lost on most Percy lol

Most, but not all; well done perchy!

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that insulting people entrenches them in their position.

They're already entrenched. They were entrenched back in the 1970s when Alf Garnett was their hero and we were trying to explain to them in words of one syllable that referring to someone as a nig-nog perhaps wasn't a very nice thing to do. Being called names is the least of their worries.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that insulting people entrenches them in their position. If you can’t be civil, you’re better off not talking to them at all.

That's why I left Facebook.

Thing is, my mum and step dad went out campaigning frequently in favour of Remain in our local area during the referendum. They were studiously polite and calm and rational, and used evidence to support their arguments, and were often met with ill informed aggression and abuse.

You can be nice and rational all you like, but in the face of emotional arguments that trigger people's unpleasant base instincts, instincts those people are either unaware of or don't care to challenge in themselves, it's a total waste of time.

So yeah insults achieve nothing but being reasonable only achieves making you feel better about yourself. Go for it.

I’m going to go out on a limb and say that insulting people entrenches them in their position. If you can’t be civil, you’re better off not talking to them at all.

Lowering yourself to their low standards is not helping anyone. I get that many of us have failed to persuade the unpersuadable, but insulting people just because they won't agree with you is counter-productive.

It's not just that they 'won't agree with you' though is it. I think that's pretty dismissive of the genuine hurt and upset and fear that's created by mass numbers of people being racist, mean-spirited, wilfully ignorant etc

Their world view is causing direct harm such as the massive rise in racist abuse/violence since the Leave vote. And you want to say 'hey guys let's all be nice to each other'. Nah, that just lets people get away with legitimising what used to be considered extreme far right views. I don't have the answers but being nice and rational has patently failed.

Their world view is causing direct harm such as the massive rise in racist abuse/violence since the Leave vote. And you want to say ‘hey guys let’s all be nice to each other’.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I have no problem telling people their views are wrong, repugnant and ignorant. But I won't give in to the temptation to tell them that they are absolute ****ing ****s, because that gives them the reaction they are looking for, expecting and wanting.

When it comes to farage's followers they want you to listen to their point of view - which is usually a recitation of farage's emissions - but are pathologically unable to listen to a different opinion, particularly when supported by verifiable facts.
A few minutes of one-to-one discussion is usually enough to tell you if there is any point continuing.
When faced with that level of wilful ignorance and blind loyalty to good old nige there is no point attempting to continue any discussion.
They have absolutely no interest in being informed - by others or educating themselves - to enable them to take educated and reasoned decisions.
I refuse to sink to their level - as MCTD said above, that is the reaction they want.
It's completely accurate to describe them as being hard of thinking.

Catharsis?

Insulting people makes you feel better? OK then...

I have definitely seen people shift position on Brexit and similar "binary" positions. No one will convince me it isn't possible. Mere months ago, a crushing majority was delivered to the Tories. How secure is that looking now? If you spend the next 4 years calling all Tories pig ****ing philandering shitheads, do you think it more, or less likely, that the Tories will be re-elected?

Mind you, I did enjoy typing pig ****ing philandering shithead Tories. Dammit 😢

Insulting people makes you feel better? OK then…

(-:

I have no problem telling people their views are wrong, repugnant and ignorant. But I won’t give in to the temptation to tell them that they are absolute * *, because that gives them the reaction they are looking for, expecting and wanting.

As I said, laudable.

But what's your alternative approach?

https://twitter.com/TheNewEuropean/status/1323549556467007491?s=19

He's cut from the same cloth as Johnson. Look at what the populist view of the day is, run to the front and shout "follow me!"

Then disappear sharpish when there's any possibility of being called to account.