[Closed] A9 average speed camera preparatory work starts today

geoffj
They'll make a lot of my driving a bit [s]different[/s] slower.

They'll make a lot of my driving a bit different [s]slower[/s]safer.

They'll make a lot of my driving [s]a bit different.[/s] safe for construction workers allowing them to go home to their families.

geoffj
They'll make a lot of my driving a bit [s]different[/s] [s]slower[/s] [s]safer[/s] more like molgrips.

I drive like a granny anyway - its more the associated roadworks (yes I know there's plenty more to come) and the affect the cameras will have on the other drivers which is a bit of an unknown.

Edit: 😀 @ DD

This is a great idea. Will we see this on motorways across the UK? Seems to work in France.

the affect the cameras will have on the other drivers which is a bit of an unknown

I think the effect is known. Which is why the cameras are being introduced.

and if they stop reckless overtaking then it might work...
[img] [/img]
http://www.inverness-courier.co.uk/News/Man-seriously-injured-after-A9-crash-17102013.htm
The only speed that was the issue was the fact that the car was moving when it hit the truck on the other side of the road. The truck driver was off to pick up some sheep for my dad at the time, said the car just pulled out in front of him.

I think we need to start viewing driving as a means to get somewhere rather than a fun activity. I was asking this of myself the other day when going up the motorway, why do I accerlate up to like 90 at points when toddling along at 75 is perfectly fine and the former is likely to get me there only 5 minutes early on a 2hr journey at best, it really is pointless. BUT as soon as we get behind the car we just seem to want to go faster.

molgrips - Member
This is a great idea. Will we see this on motorways across the UK? Seems to work in France.

and if they stop reckless overtaking then it might work...

That's the big question. I've obviously not studied the cause of accidents on the A9 but having driven it, ime most of the bad over taking is caused by lorries, caravans etc rather than excess speed.

ime most of the bad over taking is caused by lorries, caravans etc rather than excess speed.

I think the effect is known. Which is why the cameras are being introduced.

It's not quite as simple as that on the A9.

The problem with the A9 isn't so much speeding as it is the overall road structure (the frequeny switches from dual carriageway to single carriageway) on a road that gets a lot of tourist traffic as well as lots of people driving for work reasons etc.

In the summer a fair number of serious accidents are due to tourists getting confused and driving the wrong way or overtaking when they think they're on dual and are not. Other times it's drivers getting frustrated and overtaking inappropriately. I used to drive on the A9 a lot and I've seen some shocking driving on it.

ime most of the bad over taking is caused by lorries, caravans etc rather than excess speed.

I don't remember many lorries and caravans overtaking people.

'[b]Caused by[/b]' - As in massive queues of slow moving traffic due to lorry etc that then causes other drivers to chance over takes in less than suitable areas.

That, combined with the road structure as epicsteve points out, is what I would guess is causes the most accidents.

It's not quite as simple as that on the A9.

It won't reduce speed ? Well I suspect that Transport Scotland are convinced that it will, otherwise they wouldn't be introducing it as a permanent feature. Average speed cameras are all about reducing speed. And in my experience that is exactly what they do.

I don't remember many lorries and caravans overtaking people.

No but they have to adhere to different speed limits. You can hardly blame an artic driver for sticking to the 40mph limit (the law) for some fanjo overtaking him uphill onto a blind bend straight into a family of four.

'Caused by' - As in massive queues of slow moving traffic due to lorry etc that then causes other drivers to chance over takes in less than suitable areas.

Average speed cameras are all about reducing speed. And in my experience that is exactly what they do.

As in massive queues of slow moving traffic due to lorry etc that then causes other drivers to chance over takes in less than suitable areas.

It won't reduce speed ?

It may reduce average speeds on the 7 single carriageway sections where the cameras will be, but may increase speeding on dual carriageway bits between as folk try to make up time or speed up to squeeze past the last lorry before the dual section ends. Only time will tell.

with so many long slow speed convoys ave cameras are likely to make that problem worse.

Well if the solution is to encourage drivers to exceed the maximum allowed speed limit then yes, I can see that average speed cameras might might the problem worse. But the effect of average speed cameras is predictable - they reduce speed.

It won't reduce speed ? Well I suspect that Transport Scotland are convinced that it will, otherwise they wouldn't be introducing it as a permanent feature. Average speed cameras are all about reducing speed. And in my experience that is exactly what they do.

..but they don't prevent poor overtaking caused by [s]frustration after being held up by some tourist gawping at the scenery or by a lorry sticking to the hgv speed limit,[/s] [b]being a prick[/b] which probably (based on what I've seen) causes more accidents than speeding on this road.

for balance, it's up to the driver to overtake safely.

If only everyone would make progress. 🙂

But the effect of average speed cameras is predictable - they reduce speed.

If only everyone would make progress

I took the caravan up the A9 yesterday. A steady 50 on the single carriageway sections and I slowed down and pulled further in in the places where folk could get around who wanted to make progress.

.but they don't prevent poor overtaking caused by [s]frustration after being held up by some tourist gawping at the scenery or by a lorry sticking to the hgv speed limit,[/s] being a prick which probably (based on what I've seen) causes more accidents than speeding on this road.

My point is the cause of the frustration is poor driver behaviour and a lack of understanding that you are not the most important person in the world not the person travelling at a speed that they may be legally obliged too.

How does an average speed camera catch either the short burst of speed or the potentially dangerous over take?

Well that's the whole point, they allow you to accelerate and overtake if necessary. They are not there to make a judgment call on whether it's safe to overtake or not though.

I've driven up and down the A9 for longer than I care to remember. I've done the trip when it was still single carriageway with about, oh, 3 overtake spots on the whole length..

The switch between single and dual is possibly a factor. The impatience with folk barging past, intent on getting past the next car, van or HGV that's "holding them up" is, from my observation, the single biggest factor.

Is it locals that "know the road better than the tourists"; is it folk that have a deadline to meet? is it folk that have realised it's a lot longer than they thought and they /have/ to be in Aviemore by 5pm? Don't know. But I've seen quite a few after-effects of poor driving to want to repeat the experience..

kcal - In the previous thread I linked to a site which had lots of info about the main risk factors in accidents. I think there's a mix of more traffic, cars which are more capable of speed comfortably than they were 20 years ago, less training in how to overtake properly and general impatience. All stuck behind trucks that used to do close to the same speed as cars but are now restricted.

Well that's the whole point, they allow you to accelerate and overtake if necessary. They are not there to make a judgment call on whether it's safe to overtake or not though.

There's a large number of people who just don't seem to be able to overtake at all

Needs to be dual the whole way.

Trucks/Caravans don't cause the problems. Impatient car drivers so.

It isn't a road which suffers much from high speed driving

I dunno, the dual sections are ridiculous wacky races, everyone speeds up to 90-100 and then rejoins the single carrieageway in the same pissed-off group of cars, just in a slightly different order. Even on the single everyone speeds if they can, the fixed cameras have been in the same positions for years.

Needs to be dualled AND average speed cameras.

I'd love to have judge dredd powers and just 'remove' every idiot overtaker on that road.

the cause of the frustration is poor driver behaviour

Also needs the white crosses by the road to mark each fatality like they do in Australia, pretty sobering when you drive along and there would be a lot on the A9...

So pretty useless on the A9 then?

Not if you wish to reduce the average speed drivers drive at, which is clearly the intention of Transport Scotland, they will achieve that.

Either I'm making the point badly or your missing it. Becoming frustrated by being held up is poor driver behaviour. The poster that says your not stuck in traffic you are traffic sums it up.

Roads in general would benefit from better drivers.

The white crosses are just for serious accidents the black ones are for deaths. It doesn't make any difference.

I dunno, the dual sections are ridiculous wacky races

So true! It would be hilarious if it wasn't for the fact that these are 1-2 tonnes of metal travelling at 90mph, guided by fools.

It's the guys who you can see in your mirror, still tanking it down the overtaking lane at full tilt, with only a couple of hundred yards of road left, desperately trying to get in front of as many cars as possible...then hammering the brakes when they nip back in, stuck in the same 20 car convoy as the rest of us 🙂

The other one I find amusing and terrifying in equal measures, are the guys (it's always guys) who sit 3ft behind an HGV, continually sticking their nose out for a look then having to swing back in and go on the brakes, repeating every 15 seconds until they finally stick their nose out and there are no cars coming....JUST SIT MORE THAN 3FT BACK SO YOU CAN SEE WHETHER THE BLOODY ROAD IS CLEAR OR NOT!!!!! 😈

doing 40 behind a truck doing 40 is making progress.
IME the trucks do a little more than 40 anyway. steady 45 on my GPS when "stuck" behind them.

doing 30 or 25 whilst on a sunday afternoon drive might be classified as not making progress.

As always, it's not (as a lot of people here seem to think) a binary issue. There's lots of causes, but I find it hard to believe anyone who wouldn't get a bit annoyed at taking 2 1/2 hours to get from Perth to Inverness rather than 1 3/4 hours which is the kind of difference 45ish to 60ish would make.

If we boil everything down to the fact that human is driving then most accidents will be the caused by poor driving in form. But is it easier to fix the attitude of millions of motorists or to fix the road layout, speed restrictions etc to remove the factors which causes the humans to make the mistakes they make.

It's a real shame that they are going to try and use speed cameras to stop dangerous overtaking and bad Road layout and do nothing about bad driving.

It's a real shame that they are going to try and use speed cameras to stop dangerous overtaking and bad Road layout and do nothing about bad driving.

What would you suggest they do?

Police, separated lanes, overtaking lanes, enforcement of rules not just sending out speeding tickets, media work, advertising hgv stopping areas, pushing more freight onto rail would be a few things.

What would you suggest they do?

In an ideal world regular patrols, zero tolerance of speeding and bad driving with huge penalties/ban, naming and shaming, public hanging, ...

Needs to be dual the whole way.

No, people just need to allow a bit longer for their journey.

It's the guys who you can see in your mirror, still tanking it down the overtaking lane at full tilt, with only a couple of hundred yards of road left, desperately trying to get in front of as many cars as possible...then hammering the brakes when they nip back in, stuck in the same 20 car convoy as the rest of us

Yeah and so many times you arrive in the queue at Inverness or Perth roundabouts a few cars back from them.

No, people just need to allow a bit longer for their journey.

now you are just dreaming 🙂

There's a large number of people who just don't seem to be able to overtake at all.

Yeah and so many times you arrive in the queue at Inverness or Perth roundabouts a few cars back from them.

About a month ago, early on a dull grey morning, traffic was light. I saw dull-coloured cars trusting that their sidelights were enough to makes them visible to drivers coming towards them. It was scary, with snow on some of the tops catching the dawn sunlight, the Pass itself gloomy and dark.

More cops in more cars with cameras, more time to stop folk and show them what they're doing wrong please: not average speed cameras.

Police, separated lanes, overtaking lanes, enforcement of rules not just sending out speeding tickets, media work, advertising hgv stopping areas, pushing more freight onto rail would be a few things.

So a bit more than just trying to change drivers attitudes. Tbh, I agree with you that it's ultimately the drivers who are at fault most of the time, but I'm realistic enough to know that changing attitudes is really really ****ing hard. It'll take more than just police enforcement to stop bad over taking.

Dualing the whole road and removing as many temptations to bad driving as possible would have, imo, a biggest effect on accident rates than enforcement alone.

Though, obviously in an ideal world a nationwide campaign and re-education of those of us who drive would be best.

It would help if slow moving vehicles used the laybys to allow traffic to flow.
It would also help if lorries didn't tailgate each other, making it impossible at times to safely overtake.
I fully agree with the earlier point about vehicles doing 90mph on the dual sections. The fight to then pull into one lane is horrendous at times.
I'm all for average speed cameras. And roll on the upgrade to dual.

I don't know the road but if it's dual/single/dual all the way maybe these people "unable to overtake" are happy to wait for the next dual section?

Since average speed cameras where installed on the A616 Stockbridge bypass north of sheffield KSI accidents have reduced by 82%. The speed limit has also been reduced to 50mph

I don't know the A9 but on the face of it the road is similar, short sections of dual with the rest winding single A road with a high volume of lorries.

There are other examples of this appoarch being effective.

One theory why average speed cameras can be effective in reducing accidents where speed wasn't the primary cause could be that the presence of the cameras changes peoples mindset on the road.

People switch from thinking that 60mph is the target and when allowed will speed up to 70-80. At these speeds the difference between the 40mph and their ambition is large. They assume the can save a lot of time by overtaking.

Average speed cameras are viewed as effective by drivers, see what happens on motorway road works with or without them for proof. So if you reduce the drivers expectation of being able to go 70-80 down to a max of 60 or ideally 50 then the risky overtake suddely has much less benefit. So people don't bother, the settle in for a long drive at the speed limit and then a time at 10mph below their max is neither here nor there.

Of course you will still get some knobs but there will be less of them.

Cheaper than changing the road and still very effective.

Since average speed cameras where installed on the A616 Stockbridge bypass north of sheffield KSI accidents have reduced by 82%. The speed limit has also been reduced to 50mph

now you are just dreaming

I suspect that persuasion will come in the form of a statutory demand for payment in a buff-coloured envelope...

What would you suggest they do?

Average speed cameras, but make the whole lot 40mph. Sorted 🙂

Anyway - it's someone's job to figure out the best thing they can do to reduce accidents, and these people have presumably looked at data to figure out what's the most cost effective way to do this. More police would of course be nice, but it's rather expensive. I expect average speed cameras would be cheaper. Also remember that the Police are there at every accident, day in day out, looking at the scene and analysing what happened. They probably have a better idea than you what causes most of the accidents.

Not if you wish to reduce the average speed drivers drive at, which is clearly the intention of Transport Scotland, they will achieve that.

Anyway - it's someone's job to figure out the best thing they can do to reduce accidents, and these people have presumably looked at data to figure out what's the [s]most cost effective[/s] cheapest way to do this.

So has anyone seen the work done to establish the possible impact of average speed cameras vs other measures?

And as for your comment about doing things cheaply - this is public money after all.

..and why do they want to reduce speeds on this road?
As a matter of interest, how often do you drive the A9 north of Perth, ernie?

They obviously want to reduce the existing average speed limits to ensure that everyone complies with the maximum legally allowed speed limit.

I have never driven on the A9 north of Perth. Why ? Does everyone north of Perth drive faster when average speed cameras are installed ?

They obviously want to reduce the existing average speed limits to ensure that everyone complies with the maximum legally allowed speed limit.

They may wish to do that, however as many have mentioned it doesn't appear like high average speeds are a major accident factor on that road - dodgy overtakes being far more of a safety issue, plus the effect of tourists getting confused with all the dual/single carriageway changes.

They only way to really sort the A9 out is going to be when it's dual-carriageway all the way. That'll have a massive effect on the accident rate - but it's expensive so being done slowly.

it doesn't appear like high average speeds are a major accident factor on that road

.. to someone who hasn't studied it...

.. to someone who hasn't studied it...

How do you know I haven't studied it?

For those who want to study it!

[url= http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/road/safety/Speed-limit-review/A9-NW-Perth-Thurso ]Road between Perth and Thurso[/url]

Mean speed on sections listed is already below 60mph.

Those stats north of Tain are shocking.

They may wish to do that, however as many have mentioned it doesn't appear like high average speeds are a major accident factor on that road - dodgy overtakes being far more of a safety issue, plus the effect of tourists getting confused with all the dual/single carriageway changes.

Yes they obviously do "wish to do that", and I have no doubt that they will succeed.

The fact that "it doesn't appear like high average speeds are a major accident factor on that road" is irrelevant to whether they will succeed in reducing the average speed or not.

I'm not sure why there should be an argument presented here which claims that people should be permitted to ignore maximum speed limits. If the maximum speed limit has been set incorrectly then the solution is to change it, not to allow people to ignore it.

.. to someone who hasn't studied it...

How do you know I haven't studied it?

I don't, I was talking about the hypothetical person. If you have, it'd be great to share with the thread.

I'm not a traffic planner nor do I have any expertise in this area. Also I don't actually use the road in question much although I have driven it a few times.

However this is the internet so here goes.

I would being willing to place a large bet that the average speed on the A9 is below 60mph on the single carriageway sections. So high average speed is not the issue.

Average speed camera do however have a major effect on driver behaviour. Drivers know they can't "beat" the average speed camera so tend to stick rigidly to the speed limit. This has the effect of reducing the difference in speed between fast and slow traffic. This is generally a good thing

The only issue is how much of an effect large volumes of HGVs that now have to stick to 40mph are going to have

Whoah.. wait!

For those who want to study it!

Road between Perth and Thurso

Mean speed on sections listed is already below 60mph.

Most of these are rural single carriageways. Those are average speeds approaching 60mph. You have to be going pretty quickly to average 55mph on a country road yourself, so when you consider that a lot of people won't be going fast that seems to indicate that a lot of peopel are really giving it the beans.

Are similar stats for other roads available?

This has the effect of reducing the difference in speed between fast and slow traffic.

And as a consequence opens up huge spaces between vehicles IME.

Most of these are rural single carriageways. Those are average speeds approaching 60mph. You have to be going pretty quickly to average 55mph on a country road yourself,

How often have you driven it mols?

I'm sure there are plenty on here who have driven it a lot more than me but from what I remember there is not a single bend between Perth and Inverness that you couldn't negotiate easily at the speed limit, for the most part at least as far as Scottish A-roads are concerned its very wide and very straight.

Never, but I've driven lots of rural single carriageways. Why's this so different? I assumed it was like the A40 over the Cotswolds, which it sounds like.

If you keep your speedo pinned at 60, you'll only be averaging 54mph. On such rural roads that's what I do, and I come across lots of slower traffic. Bearing in mind that those figures are the MEAN speed for everyone (a quick flick-through doens't indicate if that included lorries or caravans etc) then some people are going a fair bit faster than 60mph.

It also says this:

Following our review of the speed limits, we consulted with the 8 police forces to seek their local knowledge and to gain support of our proposed recommendations. In some cases the police did not support our recommendation and we have amended our outcomes in line with the recommendations of the police.

So it does seem to include the thoughts of people with a good deal of experience, rather than being pulled out of the arse of some brainless bureaucrats. Note use of the word 'seem'.

If you keep your speedo pinned at 60, you'll only be averaging 54mph

How do you work that one out? My car's speedo is pretty accurate (according to my GPS anyway) so if I keep it pinned at 60mph I'll be averaging 60mph.

Goodness me, it's nothing like that molgrips! It's more like the A1 than a country road. It's a fast road in pretty much anything, and it's very easy to do 60mph for the full length of it. Also, stretches are dual carriageway at 70mph so actually that average speed is a touch slow, if anything.

Agree about cameras being the wrong thing for the A9, the whole road structure needs redoing. However, given the terrain it goes through, I'm not sure how likely that is.

(and, as above, my speedo in a cheap car is more accurate than that- 62mph=60mph)

I think it is planned to dual the whole of the A9 between Perth and Inverness but it'll take decades due to the cost.

Never, but I've driven lots of rural single carriageways. Why's this so different?

As munrobiker said, it's more like Route 66 than the A40.

If the road was empty you could sit at 90mph without worrying about corners.