[Closed] A question for Brexiteers to answer ( valid point or not)

Brexit was a way to get out of being europe’s cuck. mass immigration of low skilled , low educated , non english speaking cultures being dumped in the uk for the free health and meal ticket. get a cheque every week and rent paid for, get that back problem cared for, which would never have been attended to from whence they came.Sound like a racist bigot? i can assure you i’m not at all, i’m just stating what the majority of the people see with their own eyes daily but like myself say or do nothing about it. bit to clear coated for you all? btw i didn’t vote

Yes, if you're poor, uneducated and have a low standard of living and you see that then it's probably a good reason to vote for something different. Life's a bit shit anyway so why not risk a change? That's the problem with dumb people, they are generally heart over head type people who vote based on emotive reasons like immigrants, scroungers and the NHS. I sound like a right snobbish **** but it's the truth.

Curto, CG & Cougar have got to the essence of this.

Binary vote was singularly inappropriate for such a complex issue.

The absence of verifiable facts - on both sides - prior to the vote resulted in voters using what facts they gleaned for themselves allied to their 'gut' feel. How many voters 'gleaned the facts' from their preferred media outlet - Torygraph, DM etc.

The structure of the vote was too simplistic and, in my view, wrong. Such a hugely important subject should have required something like:

- minimum 75% voter turnout for vote to be valid

and

- minimum of 66% in favour for vote to be carried

This would result in a requirement for 50% of the eligible electorate voting in favour.

Cameron's attempted 'negotiations' were based on a sense of entitlement - I'm an old etonian, what could possibly go wrong?; failing to recognise that 27 v 1 was never going to work out well.

Better to be inside the tent ping out than outside the tent ping in.

In other words, stay in the EU and work to achieve much needed reform; outside of the EU, the UK has no chance of achieving any EU reform.

The UK's level of trade dependence on the EU cannot and should not be over-estimated.

We should also be careful about assuming that trade deals with non-EU countries are 'relatively' easy to conclude and can be concluded quickly.

May isn't upto the job; any sane tory would run a mile from the poisoned chalice. Corbyn is incompetent - and too old.

As Mohamed Al-Fayed would have said - what a fuggin' mess.

Are people still saying “remoaners”?

I just read this as ad hom these days.  To wit, if all you've got left is insults then it's a clear sign that you've run out of arguments.

That’s the problem with dumb people

With reference to my previous sentence: I don't it's a problem with "dumb" people, I think it's a problem with people who have been systematically lied to, deliberately mislead and are desperate for something better.

Cameron’s attempted ‘negotiations’ were based on a sense of entitlement

Cameron's position was based 100% on the notion that he thought he couldn't lose, and the referendum was an "easy" way to quash the Tory dissenters and the rise of UKIP.  He didn't anticipate so many people ticking the "I'm voting this way because Cameron is a ****" box.

Then he walked away despite promising to see it through, proving all the leavers right.

I think it’s a problem with people who have been systematically lied to, deliberately mislead and are desperate for something better

Yeh, you're probably right. I mentioned it in a previous post; it's easy to get a skewed perspective from social media (facebook pages). I don't claim to be Einstein (far from it!) but ****ing hell, some people don't engage their brains, they just end up stuck at immigrants. What's beyond that? What else is worth considering? They've never got there.

In Poland they have this thing called Narodowy Fundusz Zdrowia or National Health Fund, it sounds like a crazy idea where people pay some kind of national insurance and get healthcare. You'll never believe the next bit though! Children, old people and pregnant women get it free!

OP - if you don’t understand, then simply adjust your terms of reference. For example ask

1. Why did we/do we still find it so hard to present a coherent argument on why membership of the EU is a positive thing? Why are remain arguments dominated by why it may be worse if we leave instead of why it will be so much better if we stay?

2. Why does the EU find it so hard to present a coherent argument on why membership is a positive thing? Why is their position focused primarily on ensuring that we must be made to be worse off if we leave?

3. What would need to happen for 1 and 2 to be reversed  - or will the fear tactic prevail In perpetuity?

It was suggested above that the use of the term “remoaner” indicates that leavers have lost the argument. Ignoring the fact that they clearly haven’t lost the argument, otherwise we wouldn’t be leaving, you have to recognise that it’s use is very apt. The remain aside has no new argument other that it’s not fair and it’s going to be shit if we leave etc That argument didn’t win in the past, isn’t winning now and probably won’t win in the future

So instead of constant moaning about lies, buses, the media and the stupidity of voters, the remain camp should look in the mirror and ask themselves why did WE fail and why are WE responsible? At the end of the day we lost. We screwed up. We failed to present a coherent case for membership of the EU and we now face the consequences of that failure

Time to stop the cliched blame game and to start taking some responsibility for losing - but as the two threads have shown that is unlikely, extremely unlikely

Fail to learn the lessons of history....

Well there's another example of the simple-mindedness of those who still think Brexit is a good idea. "Let's neatly separate the debate into winning and losing". That makes no sense. However you voted, it you're a citizen of the UK you've lost and so have your children.

Why are remain arguments dominated by why it may be worse if we leave instead of why it will be so much better if we stay?

They’re one and the same. If it’s worse if we leave then QED it’s better if we stay, e.g. leaving means there will be a significant hit to the uk’s economy vs not leaving means there won’t be.

I suppose remain could have argued that there’d be free unicorns for everyone and a moon on a stick in every street...

1) Your protest vote is handing absolute power to the very people you’re protesting against.

Yep this is the pure irony of that taking that position.

thm you ask a good question.  Why did 'we' lose.  One of the differences is that I believe 'we' means all of us.  I really despise the 'us vs them' dialogue.

I'm a fairly simple-minded sort when it comes to the 'word on the street', and from my perspective the populist media 'won' the day on behalf of the people that they scared stupid.  I also believe that Britain has always been Euroskeptic.   There is a long-standing reciprocal relationship between the populist press and the Little Englander mainstay of our National identity.    The Remain (Stronger In) campaign was a comparatively short, dry and half-hearted affair.  Cameron could only have done worse if he'd deliberately sabotaged his own campaign.  I'm not convinced that he didn't.  Corbyn only helped the RW populists by being a bearded old Euroskeptic who publically admits to liking immigrants.  And have we mentioned Islamist terrorism?  As far as most of the Leave campaign was concerned, staying in the EU simply meant letting more rats on a sinking ship.  No amount of economic pro-arguments would sway voters from that fear.  What kind of passionate pro-EU argument would you have recommended to counter the fear and hatred that the EU is 'soft' on terrorists, and, worse still, happy to 'let (sic) them all in'? Sing 'Kumbaya' in Esperante?  Free croissant for a stay vote?  A multimedia walkthru holo-dome populated by friendly holo-foreigners willing to share their sausage fora bite of your crumpet?

Why did the remain campaign fail?  I'm not in a position to have the  time to type it all out.  Do you have any reason not to believe Daniel Korski, then deputy director of the policy unit in Cameron's Government?  Here is his take on it: https://www.politico.eu/article/why-we-lost-the-brexit-vote-former-uk-prime-minister-david-cameron/

In the end, of course, it didn’t work. We won the economic argument so comprehensively and so early that it was seen as a given, rather than core to the decision. And so when the campaign began in earnest, we had no new ammunition or at least no new missiles that the media and especially the newspapers would report.

I think we were right to focus the campaign on the economic case. Where we went wrong was in our inability to connect the economic costs and benefits of the decision to ordinary people’s lives. The European single market was too esoteric a concept.

Meanwhile, Vote Leave happily ignored the facts and distorted the figures. Voters didn’t believe us when we told them that we had calculated that leaving the EU would make the average household some £4,300 worse off. But Leave’s argument that Britain was “sending” £350 million a week to Brussels was believed.

When people ask me whether I think Project Fear lost us the referendum, I answer that Project Fear did in fact win. Just not ours. Our problem is that the other side was much better at fear-mongering. Their threats — of mass immigration, Turkey’s membership, and a European army — were far scarier to the British voters than our warnings of an economic slowdown.

As this has now (already!) descended in to being exactly the same thread all over again, can a mod please kill it off?

Here’s a tip flashfart, why not just, y’know, not open it? Title’s a pretty big clue I would have thought. 💡

Oooooh! I’ve found some travelling paperclip salesman pron: 📎🖇📎🖇📎🖇📎📌📏📐

" mass immigration of low skilled , low educated , non english speaking cultures being dumped in the uk for the free health and meal ticket. get a cheque every week and rent paid for, get that back problem cared for, which would never have been attended to from whence they came."

this is a classic example of what I mean.  None of this is true in any way

I think macattack is just trying to argue that the brexit vote was fuelled by knuckle-dragging bigotry, ignorance and racism. Which it surely was, in part.

None of this is true in any way

Facts matter?  In this current culture?  Not so much.   What is popular/unpopular is what matters.   Whoever/whatever influences and/or controls that dialogue has access to the ears, the pockets and the votes.

<p style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 12px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; line-height: 1.2em; color: #444444; margin: 1rem 0px !important;">Why did leave win? – a 20 year anti EU propaganda campaign by the barclay brothers, the dirty Digger and Desmond the sleezebag.  these people own a majority of the print press and the TV news takes its ” impartiality” from a mid point of the print media.</p>
<p style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 12px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; line-height: 1.2em; color: #444444; margin: 1rem 0px !important;">Thus even smart people end up believing the anti EU propaganda has some basis in fact when actually it does not.</p>

It's IMHO sadly less than political conspiracy.

Frankly it was more about what sells more papers/media than caring one way or another if we were part or not of the EU.

That anti-EU hack Johnson is a perfect micrcosm ... he made money for years writing lots of non-facts he knew were incorrect but that didn't matter so long as he made money from it.

People wanted to buy papers with misleading anti EU rants about straight cucumbers or bunches of bananas.

Whether the Barclay's brothers really wanted out or just wanted to sell more media is lost and IMHO to an extent irrelevant... Boris had his climb to fame but I personally don't think he expected or even wanted to win...

The EU is in a mess... erm yep but not because it's the EU but because it's Europe and the time of world dominance simply by being part of Europe or "The West" is waning... the expectation of I was born in the UK/Europe "so the world owes me a standard of living" can't be met longer term but rather than accept and make the best people want someone to blame.

The arguments of if the vote was binary or not... IMHO are irrelevant as the question made no sense.  A better question might have been "Our standard of living will drop over the next decades do you A) want to try and make the best of it as art of a bigger and more powerful trading block or B) stick your head in the sand and pretend we are the British Empire"

"mass immigration of low skilled , low educated , non english speaking cultures being dumped in the uk for the free health" . Part of that is true TJ. When my wife worked on the kids ward in Leeds General Infirmary, translators were regular visitors as lots of patients relations spoke no, or very little, English.
(I'm not saying they were scrounging as lots may (or may not?) have been supported by their families)

"CaptainFlashheart

Member
As this has now (already!) descended in to being exactly the same thread all over again, can a mod please kill it off?"

Why? Very odd remark.

essel - they do not get access to the NHS without meeting qualification criteria for it or be EU citizens.  You cannot come into the UK simply for healthcare.

<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">[IMG] [/IMG]</span>

Whilst i'm not going to bother reading all that above...i'm fairly certain both sides lied. Project Fear? They continue to lie. Its what politicians do. Constantly. Dont believe a word any of them say and look at things objectively through your own eyes. Then try to look between the bullshit and see what suits you best.

Translators were regular visitors

But what has that got to do with the EU?

Based on the translations in my NHS only some of them are EU languages... and equally the EU is not insisting we provide translators...(and you sure as heck wouldn't get one in France)

The whole chicken and egg is inverted... we are a country that provides translators and many other benefits ... people come and use them (both EU and not) and then we moan.

Some of this is EU.... but most of this isn't... and NHS tourism is an excellent example.

The UK can claim back all the EU health bills ... we just have to bother "filling out the form"..  but we don't bother.

"You cannot come into the UK simply for healthcare."

I know, I was just pointing out that lots of immigrants speak no English. Well at least around Leeds & Bradford. (Funny how since she's been at Harrogate District Hospital she's never even seen or heard a translator)

"But what has that got to do with the EU?"

I was quoting something TJ said.

Whilst i’m not going to bother reading all that above…

And unwittingly, you’ve highlghted one of the root causes of the whole sorry mess.

I know, I was just pointing out that lots of immigrants speak no English.

Sure, what’s your point, caller? Lots of British immigrants to the Costa del Retirement don’t speak Spanish.

For that matter, I frequently see patients waiting with interpreters at hospital in Australia, one of the countries lauded by the brexshiteers for its immigration policies.

Dont believe a word any of them say and look at things objectively through your own eyes. Then try to look between the bullshit and see what suits you best.

Facts 'suit' me best.  Any pointers as to where they are?  How do we look 'between' these two competing claims (for instance):   https://fullfact.org/europe/kettles-are-still-not-about-be-banned-eu

"Sure, what’s your point, caller? Lots of British immigrants to the Costa del Retirement don’t speak Spanish."

I'm aware of that also. I knew of a British bloke who lived in Alfaz del Pi near Benidorm. He owned 10 renty villas & didn't/wouldn't learn to speak a word of Spanish, which I found despicable & basically 'rude' towards his host country. (there'll be a word for what I mean but I can't think of it)
(& before you ask how he managed over there without speaking Spanish, his wife was Finnish but spoke Spanish so she did all the translating)

I know, I was just pointing out that lots of immigrants speak no English. Well at least around Leeds & Bradford.

When was the last time anyone on this forum met an EU citizen living and working in the UK (or in Leeds or Bradford specifically) that didn't speak any English? That's what I thought…

Like everyone else, I voted for what I thought was the best thing at the time. I was politically ignorant.

I'm still ignorant. I do not have a Scooby what our government intends to try and replace membership of the EU with… and so obviously can't support the plan they haven't yet agreed or formed.

why did we lose? it's a question you regularly posit in response to the other thread thm. how do you imagine you win an argument with a section of the electorate who aren't even having the same argument?

'To conclude, my Brexiteer stance IS NOT DUE TO RACISM BUT A PROTEST VOTE FOR THE SHAMBLES THAT PASSES AS POLITICS IN THE UK WHEREBY THE POPULATION ARE TREATED AS STUPID.'

i hate to say it but if your response to 'should the uk leave or remain members of the EU' is to vote leave because you want to give politicians a bloody nose, i wouldn't describe you as stupid or racist, but i might suggest that thinking of the possible consequences might have been worthwhile before you exercised your democratic right to f everything right up for all of us.

I'm going to let my tyres down as a protest against that **** Chris grayling.

That'll learn him.

<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 16px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">To conclude, my Brexiteer stance IS NOT DUE TO RACISM BUT A PROTEST VOTE FOR THE SHAMBLES THAT PASSES AS POLITICS IN THE UK WHEREBY THE POPULATION ARE TREATED AS STUPID.</span>

My own Brexiteer stance was a vote to protest the changing of Marathon to Snickers.

I can't wait to see the looks on all the racist faces when all the white and light skinned immigrants from the EU are replaced with the brown and dark skinned non-EU ones instead.

Just sit back and let the Brexiteers crack On, Rees Mogg Boris Fox do not have the courage of their convictions to take the reins. They simply want to complain it's not going in the right direction - sorry but they are a spineless bunch of *s.

Power grab politics at its worst - hold the moral high ground and winge like * no matter what happens.

Dogma at its worst...  while the great unwashed want £15 an hour minimum wage and all the immigrants chucked out Rees Mogg will stand up and say "we could have delivred this if only..."

Talentless, sackless, ****wits to a man, they don't even have the balls to oust May.

<p style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 16px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; line-height: 1.2em; color: #444444; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 1rem 0px !important;">Binary vote was singularly inappropriate for such a complex issue.</p>
<p style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 16px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; line-height: 1.2em; color: #444444; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 1rem 0px !important;">The absence of verifiable facts – on both sides – prior to the vote resulted in voters using what facts they gleaned for themselves allied to their ‘gut’ feel. How many voters ‘gleaned the facts’ from their preferred media outlet – Torygraph, DM etc.</p>
<p style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 16px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; line-height: 1.2em; color: #444444; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 1rem 0px !important;">The structure of the vote was too simplistic and, in my view, wrong. Such a hugely important subject should have required something like:</p>
<p style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 16px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; line-height: 1.2em; color: #444444; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 1rem 0px !important;">– minimum 75% voter turnout for vote to be valid</p>
<p style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 16px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; line-height: 1.2em; color: #444444; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 1rem 0px !important;">and</p>
<p style="padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-size: 16px; vertical-align: baseline; background-color: transparent; line-height: 1.2em; color: #444444; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; margin: 1rem 0px !important;">– minimum of 66% in favour for vote to be carried</p>

@frank I am good with all of that being required for such momentus decisions such as 1) Join EEC/EU, 2) ANY EU treaty such as Maastricht or Lisbon

What a steaming pile of crap is the new forum

Singletrackworld forum en masse for the past fifteen years:

"The status quo is broken, we need change"

Singletrackworld forum en masse for the past eighteen months

"Oh my god, the status quo is brilliant, how on earth could anyone vote to change it?"

Jambalaya

What a steaming pile of crap is the new forum

You took a while, been house hunting for the retirement home on the continent ? 🙂

Can’t believe that they haven’t prepared for the new forum.

Haha, I like it zippy. 🙂

"I can’t wait to see the looks on all the racist faces when all the white and light skinned immigrants from the EU are replaced with the brown and dark skinned non-EU ones instead."

What, like the Goans & Keralans that looked after my Mrs in Harrogate Hospital Intensive Therapy Unit last year?
The ones that have been here for ages anyway?
(utterly fantastic people BTW)

Us stw lefties wanted to end the right wing shitshow that's hammering the poorest and dividing the country ever further.....

Brexshit is just that on steroids, the very opposite of fixing those problems

Remain campaign told at least as many if not more “lies” as part of Project Fear / Armageddon than did Leave.

Bullshit.

I’ve always found it amusing that leave voters have the audacity to refer to the remain campaign as fear mongering when it’s abundantly clear that fear was a primary tool of the leave campaign.

[quote="jambalaya"] Remain campaign told at least as many if not more “lies” as part of Project Fear / Armageddon than did Leave.

Really - name one.  A lie not an opinion you disagree with but a lie to go alongside 350 million for thre NHS

Now that is truely weird - I typed in the square brakets and put Jamablaya and its change to Andy by the forum

[ quote="jambalaya" ]  bla bla bla [ /quote] minus the spaces is what I typed

Poop the forum is so crap I am using it probably 25% of the amount I did before. TBH if my subscription came up for renewal in the near term I’d probably just skip paying the £50 in protest

Cougar that’s a fact I posted. Remain fell over themselves telling lies, 500,000 extra unemployed within 12 months of a Leave vote for starters. A recession deeper than 2008

£363m is the gross amount we send to the EU budget over which we have no control as to how its spent. The whole “Brext Bill” nonsense has shown very starkly that  the real cost of being an EU member has been MUCH MUCH higher

TJ I am happy with Andy

Kimbers I won’t post yet again the map of the UK showing Brexit voting areas but twas the Nirth and the Labour heartlands which won it for Leave, plus of course all the voted we picked up in Scotland

The forum is so crap I am using it probably 25% of the amount I did before.

Every cloud and all that.

Jambalaya,

Genuine question for you. The post I made above was from some causal skimming of posts on the Ref thread a while back.

Are you intending to retire to somewhere within the EU ?

"Are you intending to retire to somewhere within the EU ?"

*I am not Jambalaya*

I know of 3 couples who either have or are retiring to Spain, 2 that have already & one that has bought place to go to next November.
None of them are the least bit arsed about Brexit or the effects on them in Spain.
*I've had a drink & have NO idea what the relevance is but am proud that I can still type* (but pissed off that I still can't put a winkey face on here!)

Cougar that’s a fact I posted.

£363m is the gross amount we send to the EU budget over which we have no control as to how its spent.

The rebate is applied straight away, so the UK never contributes this much.

None of them are the least bit arsed about Brexit or the effects on them in Spain

esselgruntfuttock

I know of 3 couples who either have or are retiring to Spain, 2 that have already & one that has bought place to go to next November.
None of them are the least bit arsed about Brexit or the effects on them in Spain.

No,I bet they aren't as they are probably allowed to stay there even after Brexit.

Now I had some vague idea of doing similar one day. Perhaps even encouraging my lad to move over there at some point.

That option has now been removed from me and my son's life.

Thank God the 3 couples you mention aren't worried by Brexit though, eh? Like many expats they probably had the hypocrisy to vote Leave too.

There’s just no point arguing with Jamby on this topic.

It’s just page after page of lies, deliberate mis-interpretation of data, sprinkled with a hefty garnish of outright bullshit. He rarely pasts anything truthful, and when he does actually provide some figures (like that graph on the other thread), it becomes very apparent that the only argument they support is the one he’s trying to counter. Either that, or they stop before the time about which he’s trying to make an argument.

It’s just page after page of lies, deliberate mis-interpretation of data, sprinkled with a hefty garnish of outright bullshit. He rarely pasts anything truthful, and when he does actually provide some figures (like that graph on the other thread), it becomes very apparent that the only argument they support is the one he’s trying to counter. Either that, or they stop before the time about which he’s trying to make an argument.

this post Brexshit world is a weird place. Sounds like Jambas has joined the remoaners*. What’s next?

* at least they should be more welcoming now - one of their own

Those retirees to spain are going to be affected when they lose their free healthcare ad discover that insurance s very expensive

Jamba is just someone many of us disagree with, and who really doesn't put much real effort into backing up his position. Just counter his points and move on… don't get so personal. Also… ignore any other posters who just enjoy shitstirrring.

"Thank God the 3 couples you mention aren’t worried by Brexit though, eh? Like many expats they probably had the hypocrisy to vote Leave too."

One couple didn't even vote! They bought somewhere in late 2016 to retire to. (Now renting the house over here that they used to own, until they go in November)
When I said, 'I hope you voted remain', Steph said, 'didn't even vote, makes no difference what happens, wer'e still ****ing going'!
All 3 couples aren't stupid & have done their homework (Junky may think they are stupid cos theyr'e all prison staff!)

essel - so what are they going to do when the healthcare reciprocal arrangements end and they have to get health insurance?

"Jamba is just someone many of us disagree with, and who really doesn’t put much real effort into backing up his position. Just counter his points and move on… don’t get so personal. Also… ignore any other posters who just enjoy shitstirrring"

Having also communicated with him off forum I believe that he really believes the nonsense and he is not provocative.  Unlike THM whos only intention is to belittle and infuriate and ninfan who just wants to pick an fight

"essel – so what are they going to do when the healthcare reciprocal arrangements end and they have to get health insurance?"

They've already taken health insurance out, or so Steph said last time I saw her which was admittedly last Autumn. Dunno if anything's changed since then.
Also I'm not sure if they bought the house just before or just after the referendum (if it makes any difference) but it was around that time.
I'll see if I can catch up with her on FB chat & delve a bit.

[interesting to note on both threads which parties combine posting lies on relevant facts and on individuals who point that out at the same time. My last point on this thread. Leave it to the abusers and those making stuff up]

essel, there are alternative views on healthcare in the EU after Brexshit.

“don’t get so personal.”

It was his posts I was savaging

THM: try harder, that was pathetic even for you

I campaigned for, donated to and voted Leave. In the press’s parlance I am a Brexiteer and favour WTO exit in 2019. We pay nothing to the EU for any transition nonsense.

But that then ?

Most specifically what are you personally going to do with WTO trade?

What is your detailed business plan?

I mean you personally... because lots of rhetoric is bandied about that WE (the UK) can do all sorts of wonderful stuff but this is all about possibilities than someone can ... not anything that could pass a an actual business case.

In a way it's like fantasy shopping with someone else's money...  unless we/you actually have form plans about how his is better.

“and he is not provocative.”

Oh sure, he’s not as overt in that regard as the other timewasters you mention. But by the same measure, completely ignoring any point he’s pulled up on then posting even more delusional tripe can get a bit wearing after a while.

Also… ignore any other posters who just enjoy shitstirrring.

Once we start taking back control and booting out a few mainland people , even if you can stay in Spain how friendly will the welcome be?

<span style="color: #444444; font-size: 16px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;">They’ve already taken health insurance out, or so Steph said last time I saw her which was admittedly last Autumn. Dunno if anything’s changed since then.</span>

They'll be back here leaching on the tax payers as soon as something serious happens that their insurance doesn't cover.

THM why not do the decent thing and defend Jambys posts as factually accurate then. I note you never defend his "facts" ever as you know they are BS

Do you agree with his figure on what we send to the EU?- were anyone else posting such economic falsehoods you would be all over them for the lie. You know and so do we

Unless you wish to factually defend his posts [ even the troll wont try] Shhh the sensible people are talking.

This is why we cant have nice things.   This is often how division occurs and how blatantly dishonest newspapers and media channels flourish and direct our futures. An ego at large wishes to be 'right' as opposed to 'wrong', and so will customarily disregarding 'factual' altogether.  To support itself it will also mangle context.   In short, the ego won't feel either the need or shame to seek independent verification for fear that it 'loses'/is seen by others as a 'loser'.

To further complicate and compound matters, narcissists (group or singular) care less-to-zero about anything other than 'winning'.

care less-to-zero about anything other than ‘winning’

Did you hear this, on Radio 4 this morning?

[b][i]"Winning - isn't it great?" asks AL Kennedy.

But she argues that our "winner takes all" mentality is suffocating democracy.[/i][/b]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09ppz9p

"They’ll be back here leaching on the tax payers as soon as something serious happens that their insurance doesn’t cover."

Doubt if they'd even get seen, not the way the NHS is heading.

Hindsight is always helpful.  Following a healthy dose of the stuff, it would have been much better to have arranged for a second referendum once all the negotiations and butt ****ing had been completed. Then, armed with the appropriate information and facts, the great British public could make their final choice and decision.

My suspicion is that the establishment, Westminster, the City and Murdoch have other nefarious plans that require us to not be regulated by the EU.

+1 for Cameron to be hung drawn quartered and flayed. He's a ****.

>THM why not do the decent thing and defend Jambys posts as factually accurate then. I note you never defend his “facts” ever as you know they are BS<

@junky: a sub is only £15, you’d need an Eastern European to do that kind of work for such shit pay.... 🤣

My suspicion is that the establishment, Westminster, the City and Murdoch have other nefarious plans that require us to not be regulated by the EU.

I share that suspicion.  It's all about power.  The Tories want to "take back control," but for themselves not the UK.  Murdoch is on record as saying that when he goes to Westminster they do what he says and when he goes to the EU they tell him to bugger off.  As for the "establishment," well.   https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy