[Closed] A philosophical question - about going to the moon.

I don't know

Valid question.

I reckon I've got more chance of getting to the moon than into Liz Hurley's pants, so yes, I do think that the human race is setting its sights too low.

Plus, I'd probably rather spend two weeks round at Liz's house than collecting rocks on what looks like the most boring place in the galaxy.

Surrounded By Zulus - Member
[s]Is[/s]Was humans putting men on the moon and getting them to return safely really that great an achievement,

A target for the first half of the 21st century would surely be continuous occupation of Mars - but that's assuming we don't have problems closer to home in need of funding and research.

I think it's very impressive given the level of technology in the 60s, and slightly sad that we can't do it nowadays. But I think it's illustrative of how screwed up our priorities are that we put men on the moon and continue to send people into space when there are so many people living in utter poverty. Thinking about the space race makes me glad I'm British, though: the Americans built NASA, we built the NHS, and I know which I'd rather have (or should that be "have had"?).

There you go, something in that lot should set someone off. 🙂

I find it incredible that man has been to the moon and back in one piece.
It's further than it looks you know. I do wonder when manned space exploration will next be attempted though as getting anywhere else is going to be mega expensive and we dont have spare cash these days.

Fantastic achievement. really really unparalleled - maybe columbus or Cooks voyages would be of similar standing

what looks like the most boring place in the galaxy.

You've never been to Swindon then?

TandemJeremy - Member
Fantastic achievement. really really unparalleled - maybe columbus or Cooks voyages would be of similar standing

I think it's illustrative of how screwed up our priorities are that we put men on the moon and continue to send people into space when there are so many people living in utter poverty.

You could say that about almost anything - we have museums, theatre, sports, subsidised transport, massively subsidised roads, loads of things where the money could have been spent on more basic needs.

Humans need more than their basic needs met. Going to the moon was a way of sticking it to the Russians, but it was also one of the most astounding things that humans have ever done. Millions of years from now, when we're all gone and all trace of humanity has been wiped from the surface of the Earth, there will still be some bits of metal on the moon saying "we were here". That's worth the money.

There was a nice item on the 99% Invisible podcast about going to mars and how distant a prospect it would be as at present you couldn't get someone there with enough vehicle and fuel to come back again. As a result its reckoned a manned mission is unlikely in our lifetimes.

Someone (I forget who) is suggesting instead that we forget about coming back - send someone now, knowing full well that they couldn't come back, a suicide mission.

NASA's position is that a one way mission is unthinkable- the goal is to get to mars when we can get back from mars, even if that puts the mission beyond the life and careers of anyone working on the project just now.

However I wonder whether that shows that it isn't worth doing now or at any time.

As for the moon - I think if you told any of the Apollo astronauts, while they were standing on the moon, that in the 40 years to follow that nobody would do it again, or plan to, well I think they'd be a bit miffed.

Agreed that at the time it was an amazing achievement. However, with advances in technology, I see no need to send humans back. Its costly and there's no real need except oneupmanship between countries...send the robots to do the work/exploring.

there will still be some bits of metal on the moon saying "we were here". That's worth the money.

"Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair?"

Landing on the was an amazing achievement, but there are other events that have had a more important impact on humanity, like eradicating smallpox, which is an amazing example of what humans can achieve if they work together.

"Look on my works ye mighty, and despair?"

Possibly. Or maybe a sign that, despite it all, we achieved something more than trashing the planet then dying off. This is about Voyager, but sums it up:

Personally, I think that the Voyager missions are more impressive than the moon landings. For those probes to still be functioning and able to send back data more than 30 years later is outstanding.

I have to say, having watched the 69 landing and having lived through all the technological breakthroughs since, I'm disappointed they haven't been back, had there been something there they needed, they would have done I'm sure.

It'll be the Chinese or Indians next but until we can curtail our global differences and some realisation that this rocks resources are finite and sooner or later humanity is going to have to go find somewhere else to screw up, I can't see anything other than Mars on the agenda for some time. Although one of those moons of Jupiter is supposedly going to be worth a look, Europa is it.

But, just think about it for a while, you need food, fuel, repair options against damage from space crap busting big holes through your craft, (remember Apollo 13) they were lucky with the Moon trips, going any further they are bound to bump into something, until they can work out the means of self determination from the craft itself, which afaik they don't' do yet, they are solar system bound for some time to come.

And anyway where the **** are we going to get dilithium crystals from for the Warp drive?

It's further than it looks you know.

And it's now 5 foot further away than it was in 1969.

I think it's worth remembering that in 1969 the Morris Minor was in production, and it was considered such an excellent piece of motor engineering, despite being designed in the 40s, that the Old Bill drove around in them. That puts 1969 technology into some sort of perspective.

I'm disappointed they haven't been back, had there been something there they needed, they would have done I'm sure.

The problem with the space race was that it was a race. At the end of a race whether you are the winner or a looser you've spent 100% or your effort and energy. Thats the real reason nothing really followed it up.

This is about Voyager, but sums it up

That's qualitatively the same argument, just couched in emotive US telly terms.

Having said that, we don't live in an ideal world where the biggest problems get dealt with first. So from a pragmatic point of view it is perhaps pleasing to know that we can achieve something spectacular like visiting the moon in spite of being so splendidly ****less that we can't get by day to day without thousands of people dying needlessly. Ok, you have a point, I suppose. I reserve the right to find it depressing, though.

I concur.

i seen it when i was a kidley.. inspiring stuff.. but so was jaques cousteau.
the pretty boy cox spoke to the last man to leave the moon on the telly recently and he didnt have any issues about no one going back.. he was looking forward to thier been a sustainable moonbase.. from which a mars expedition could launch and not use antwhere near as much fuel.. but that d mean making the fuel on the moon from its resources.. and sure that isnt going tohappen in my life time but my grandad had a book printed in 1927 that said spaceships were impossible as the speed they needed to go to leave the earths atmosphere where impossible to reach

anything can happen/ be done the only limits are mans imagination..

In the 1960's you had a lot of rocket scientists (can't have them all openlly working on cold war intercontinetal ballistics), over the counter amphetamines and no Sky TV or Facebook. This is what made the Apollo mission possible.

I love the cost argument, as it's pretty much completely invalid. There isn't a massive scrap value for the materials left on the moon, or even the materials burned getting there, but the space race kept people in interesting and demanding jobs both directly and in any number of supporting industries (making those custom Corvette Stingrays for the Apollo astronauts for instance).

Its a nice distraction from going out and causing even more third world crisis.

I agree with Carl Sagan on this one. The entire human race will die out if we don't get into space. Poverty, medicine and all the other stuff should be secondary to surviving in the first place. The aforementioned problems will never be solved completely anyway, but perhaps if you give society a goal like that, everything would fall into place, since people need to live in a fair, healthy society to get stuff done.

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Carl Sagan was that idiot who expounded all kinds of childish theories wasnt he. Anyway the average ditance earth to moon is 238857 miles, not 4 billion.

When you watch some of the stuff on TV you realise just how hostile space is to humans. Talk about fish out of water. You can get people up and back, but realitvely quickly, keeping them there alive for a long time is the tricky part. The ISS needs constant replenishing.

FACEPALM-------^

Fantastic achievement. really really unparalleled - maybe columbus or Cooks voyages would be of similar standing

People are rowing across the Atlantic in nearly a month now. As Ernie says in '69 Morris Minors were still in production and highly regarded, in 2012 we have the Bugatti Veyron.

Maybe collectively we should set our sights higher and go for a STW moon shot. If we could only agree on a meeting point and departure time.

Or we could start by trying to get something into space. Via weather balloon maybe?

I don't think it was that spectacular of an achievement in technological terms. All you need is a pressurised container and a big rocket. The equations to get you there have been well known for hundreds of years and are first year material at university. So although they had much less computing power, they still had enough. If we did the same today the equations would be the same and you wouldn't actually USE the extra power we have. Well, not during the flight.. you would in the design stages. The engineers would need more computing power to upload pictures to facebook in their lunchbreak.

Doing it without a gigantic rocket with thousands of tons of fuel - that would be harder.

There have been countless more amazing feats of engineering and science before and since. The scale of the achievements represented by the compact oblong thing with buttons on it under your fingers vastly outstrips the moon programme imo. It's absolutely mindboggling - and what's even more impressive is that you can get them for £349 from Currys and they are playthings for kids.

Achievement? Really?

I tend to see it as a bit of a peeing contest with the USSR and the Americans proclaiming in 1969 that they do indeed have a larget collective willy than the Russians.

Arms race ended up being the space race. It was a publically acceptable way to make a military point.

At the moment, I don't see what we're gaining from our manned space missions. The moon missions were a product of their own time, the Cold War point scoring race, and the biggest technological advances they produced were in ICBMs for Mutually Assured Destruction. Some Legacy!
At present, manned missions to Mars would be more of the same, political or tribal willy waving. We gain so much more scientifically by designing and sending unmanned probes, its too hostile up there for our earth-addapted bodies, we're a liability to the mission in space

However,I have a lot of respect for missions such as the Voyagers, true exploration for the sake of science and discovery. However, all their results point to one thing: We don't even understand the mysteries of our own planet, and from all the evidence, it's by far the most interesting.
We should be putting so much more into understanding and protecting it.

Or maybe a sign that, despite it all, we achieved something more than trashing the planet then dying off.

Yes.

Not content with 'trashing' Earth & filling it's immediate vicinity with space junk, then visiting the moon and littering the place, leaving whole cars amd what-not there.

We also learnt how to get to other places and start trashing those too.

Hooray.

Excellent legacy.

And of course, humans have a brilliant history of responsibly using natural resources.

One thing we can never be accused of is digging everything out of the ground and burning it all, thus changing a planets climate (allegedly).

Carl Sagan was that idiot who expounded all kinds of childish theories wasnt he.

😯

If it was worth doing, we'd have gone back.

Maybe collectively we should set our sights higher and go for a STW moon shot. If we could only agree on a meeting point and departure time.

Maybe collectively we should set our sights higher and go for a STW moon shot.

I knew those fat-bike riders were up to something

Carl Sagan was that idiot who expounded all kinds of childish theories wasnt he.

Oops, I was thinking of Erich von Däniken. My bad

we all make mistakes.

but watch this:

my dad was 20 when 'they' landed on the moon, i've spoken to him about that time, and he accepts that sat-nav, the internet, smart-phones, etc. are all very clever, but it's not the future he was promised.

we're almost going backwards now.

(no moon base, no space shuttle, we can't even cross the chanel by hover craft any more)

hijack.........ahwiles, rim mate, can i buy it?

Ton, yes - sorry! i've had a few snow-related issues to deal with, 'your' mavic rim is buried at the back of the shed, i'll dig it out tonight, and get it in the post on wednesday.

paypal gift is fine.

carry on!

my dad was 20 when 'they' landed on the moon, i've spoken to him about that time, and he accepts that sat-nav, the internet, smart-phones, etc. are all very clever, but it's not the future he was promised.

we're almost going backwards now.

The era of moon landings, super-sonic air travel, and what-not ... then the internet came along and we can do everything without even having to get up off our sofa's.

Quite depressing in many ways.

my dad was 20 when 'they' landed on the moon, i've spoken to him about that time, and he accepts that sat-nav, the internet, smart-phones, etc. are all very clever, but it's not the future he was promised.

This.

We've gone backwards in so many ways, we've become more timid, inward looking and selfish. It's all about a profitable return these days and we're all the poorer for it.

Even trying to get funding for a mission to Europa which may well resolve one of the most fundamental questions mankind has ever asked itself is proving long winded and problematic.

It's all about a profitable return these days and we're all the poorer for it.

That's what happens when you let blimmin' accountants near things.

we're almost going backwards now.

No, we're going forward in all sorts of incredible ways that are far more practical than going to the moon. Have you been reading about the invisibility cloak research that keeps coming up on the BBC? That's about a million times more impressive than going to the moon. As is the internet, to be honest. That has changed the world in ways that a moonbase never would have.

Well there are a few moonlanders* on here 🙂

* obscure choccyfoot reference from back in the day.

we're almost going backwards now.

No, we're going forward in all sorts of incredible ways that are far more practical than going to the moon. Have you been reading about the invisibility cloak research that keeps coming up on the BBC? That's about a million times more impressive than going to the moon. As is the internet, to be honest. That has changed the world in ways that a moonbase never would have.

i know (i did say [i]almost[/i]), but i want a [s]hovercraft[/s] jetpack. and i was sort of speaking on my dad's behalf.

from his point of view, we were in a rocketship to the future, but when we got there, it didn't look like it did in the brochure.

but moon landings - very impressive, even if only from a 'so many people and organisations needing to cooperate' point of view.

No, we're going forward in all sorts of incredible ways that are far more practical than going to the moon.

This. Take a look at modern medicine, for example. Compared to the state of it in the 60s we are light-years ahead of where we were, and partly because the accountants looked at the balance sheet for space exploration and the balance sheet for making ill people well, and saw that it was something of a no-brainer to invest money in fixing people up.

I'd much rather be stuck on the ground with the knowledge that if someone gets Parkinson's disease (like my mum) then whilst there is no cure (yet, they're working on it) there are medications available to make life much more bearable for much longer than was even dreamed of in the 60s. You can keep your space rockets, I know what I'd rather have.

my dad was 20 when 'they' landed on the moon, i've spoken to him about that time, and he accepts that sat-nav, the internet, smart-phones, etc. are all very clever, but it's not the future he was promised.

I was promised a hover bike and a flying car - as well as holidays on the moon.

I want them now *stamps feet*

the internet, ... That has changed the world in ways that a moonbase never would have.

Ah, but how can you be so sure?

There's loads of stuff the 60's space race gave us that we'd never have anticipated.

Although admittedly a moon base wouldn't have given the world wall-to-wall xXx websites, which is what 99% of the internet seems to be ..

if you did a little deeper, past the p0rn, you'll find it's actually full of cats.

Moon Landing?, Hoverboards are much more impressive for me.

As Ernie says in '69 Morris Minors were still in production and highly regarded, in 2012 we have the Bugatti Veyron

In 1969 we had the Countach, GT40, Porche 917
In 2010 the Police drive Vauxhall Astra's, and you can still buy wooden framed sports cars for £50k+, have we really come that far?

Have you been reading about the invisibility cloak research that keeps coming up on the BBC? That's about a million times more impressive than going to the moon.

Your right there, a device that will allow us to kill our enemies more easily and take a look round the girl's changing rooms all in one. Mankind has truly reached the ultimate goal.

The science is amazing, what other people use it for is not an indictment of the achievement.

Ah, but how can you be so sure?

It's transformed global communications and put people in touch like never before. We are social creatures, this is very important to us. More important than having a dozen special people up in space.

The space race did give us some inventions, yes, but there have been an awful lot more civillian inventions and lots of earth-based military ones too.

I was promised a hover bike and a flying car - as well as holidays on the moon.

TJ - this is for you (clicky):

[url= http://1.2.3.9/bmi/ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5133LMIt66L._SL500_AA300_.jp g" target="_blank">http://1.2.3.9/bmi/ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5133LMIt66L._SL500_AA300_.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

Interesting article on how the size and costs of teams required to innovate and the conservatism of the funders of innovation might be slowing down technological innovation

"[url= http://www.wired.co.uk/magazine/archive/2011/07/ideas-bank/tim-harford-we-must-learn-how-to-pay-for-innovation ]In 1967, the futurologists Herman Kahn and Anthony J Wiener published The Year 2000, predicting highspeed data processing, the fax machine and possibly even mobile phones.[/url]

That sounds like a pretty good forecast -- until you realise the book also predicted interplanetary travel, foolproof hangover cures, dream-control machines, artificial moons and undersea colonies. The phones have been a pleasant surprise, but then you realise that in many ways the last 40 years have been a technological disappointment. Compare 2011 with 1971: we still fly in jumbo jets; only two new classes of antibiotic have been launched; and a cheap, safe alternative to coal and oil continues to elude us."

Anyone can make today look bad by pointing out what pie in the sky inventions we don't have. What we do have is amazing but you take it all for granted. As for the antibiotics bit - I wouldn't belittle medical achievements, to be honest:

[url= http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/jul/12/cancer-survival-rates-doubled ]On average it found that 45.2% of cancer patients are now expected to survive at least 10 years, compared with 23.7% in the 1970s.[/url]

I knew how to make invisibility clothing when I was a child. It was obvious that all that was needed was an all in one suit covered in microscopic combination cameras/screen "scales".

I feel rather sad that people think doing something on the internet is the same as actually doing it in the reality that we inhabit. I can only assume that a lot of you would actually prefer to live "in" the matrix than reality. I'm making a point there I can differentiate fiction from reality.

I was 7 years old when "we" landed on the moon. A lot of what our species has achieved boggles me but for me, reaching the moon WAS our greatest achievement, even compared to other space stuff, Voyagers et al. Humans left this planet and visited an admittedly near neighbor. And came back. As far as we know nothing else on this planet even has the ability to comprehend that anything exists beyond the environment it inhabits.

The moon landing was a master stroke of technology, bravery and imagination.

I honestly look on our species now and don't think we even have the imagination anymore to think like that.

Bit flowery hippy crap I know but that's just me.

I would love to see a woolly mammoth before I die.

I disagree that we've gone backwards. When we landed on the moon there were no supersonic scheduled flights which could get you from London to New York in 3 hours...

Wheres my hover bike!

I was promised one!

The moon landing was a master stroke of technology, bravery and imagination.

More the bravery than anything else. Ahead of the moon landings when the Russians put the first man in space Gagarin went up knowing there was no way of actually coming back down again safely, not that there was a risk - there was no way to bring him back down - the ship was designed to crash and he'd have to bail out.

I also heard an interview with an another early cosmonaut who went up as a team of three - but there were only funds for two space suits so he didn't get one. The interviewer asked him what he wore instead "pretty much the same sort of thing as I'm wearing now".

I would love to see a woolly mammoth before I die.

they are pretty bad tempered, seeing one is often the last thing that happens before you die

I feel rather sad that people think doing something on the internet is the same as actually doing it in the reality that we inhabit

a) who thinks that? and
b) the internet is real life. I am real, this computer is real, and you (presumably) are real.

And it seems like you share the same metaphysical presumptions that the makers of the Matrix did. If a virtual reality is indistinguishable from a 'real' one, then what's the difference? And why is one intrinsically better than the other? The baddie in the Matrix was the baddie because he wanted to stay in the Matrix - this is just plain wrong according to a film made in the country that values truth and justice above all else (supposedly).

I have discussions on here just as good as any in real life. Are they intrinsically inferior because I used my fingers instead of my lips? My brain is still working the same way.

I honestly look on our species now and don't think we even have the imagination anymore to think like that

Rubbish - that is absolute rubbish and a damned insult to the scientists of the world. The moon trip was the most obvious sciency thing they could think of, and they did it, got not much more than a few rocks and a mirror, and then stopped - mainly because they'd won and stuck one over on the Ruskies. Hardly imaginitive is it?

When we landed on the moon there were no supersonic scheduled flights which could get you from London to New York in 3 hours

You sure as hell couldn't go to America on holiday on an average wage! You are all looking at the wrong things!

The focus is cost rather than speed. 747-400 does the equivalent of 110mpg per passenger, concorde only 17.

Anyone can make today look bad by pointing out what pie in the sky inventions we don't have. What we do have is amazing but you take it all for granted.

+1
Things that capture the public imagination and real paradigm shifts or big steps forwards aren't necessarily the same thing, so there can be plenty of the latter without the former.
Also game-changers that are obviously game-changers at the time and are basically embodied in one single event or invention are pretty rare, compared to lots of little things coming together.

"Was humans putting men on the moon and getting them to return safely really that great an achievement, or are humans setting their sights too low?"

This has to be taken relative to the time in which it occurred - while it may not be as impressive if it were to happen now, it was a milestone back then. I don't think you can really say humans were setting their sights too low, and that in itself opens up a whole new can of worms.

Also, the question isn't philosophical.

It was an amazing achievement for its day. Show's what can be achieved with large scale teamwork and sheer determination.

just a pity that sort of willingness and effort has to be channeled into something that was the product of the Cold War. Yes, plenty good came out of it, but it was as a result of militaising space.

What I can't understand is that after millenium of so called modern society, we still have such tribal conflicts, petty national bickering, and such self interested posturing from virtually everyone. It is a real shame that it will take a long time yet before we can become a united world.

Show's what can be achieved with [s]large scale teamwork and sheer determination[/s] deep pockets

The implication there is that everyone else doesn't have determination and teamwork, which is terribly unfair to everyone else. The world is full of brilliant people completely dedicated to their worth causes, however much of it is not immediately understandable to the general public, and is not very easily used for political gain. So it languishes without funding.

What I can't understand is that after millenium of so called modern society, we still have such tribal conflicts, petty national bickering, and such self interested posturing from virtually everyone

Really? You can't understand that?

And really, we've made great strides in society in the last thousand years.

I also heard an interview with an another early cosmonaut who went up as a team of three - but there were only funds for two space suits so he didn't get one. The interviewer asked him what he wore instead "pretty much the same sort of thing as I'm wearing now".

Not entirely accurate - that would have been Voskhod 1, where none of the cosmonauts wore suits, as the craft had been designed for 2 people and there wasn't space inside for 3 in suits. I should think the cost of a suit was fairly trivial compared to all the other costs involved!

[i]molgrips - Member

Show's what can be achieved with large scale teamwork and sheer determination deep pockets

The implication there is that everyone else doesn't have determination and teamwork, which is terribly unfair to everyone else. The world is full of brilliant people completely dedicated to their worth causes, however much of it is not immediately understandable to the general public, and is not very easily used for political gain. So it languishes without funding.

What I can't understand is that after millenium of so called modern society, we still have such tribal conflicts, petty national bickering, and such self interested posturing from virtually everyone

Really? You can't understand that?

And really, we've made great strides in society in the last thousand years.[/i]

Was slightly tongue in cheek. Yes, deep pockets was a very big part of it.

Yes, we have made great strides, we can now kill far more efficiently than ever before, there is still conflict in the Middle East, though not as much in Europe for the last 16 years. Africa has been plundered and the people there no better off than 1,000 years ago.

OK, we can extend help in a crises for better than before, but there is still far too much self interest to make proper progress.

Yes, we have made great strides

Well slavery is mostly history in the West at least and most of us are not feudal serfs. Then there's social security and healthcare. Human rights, widespread democracy, universal suffrage.. but APART from that, what have the Romans every done for US?!

I think it was a massive thing. Not so much for the technological aspect - more that we had the bravery and desire to do it.

In the 60's, space travel was like XTR. Everybody wanted it, but only a few could have it. But the technology, materials and ideas are clearly trickling down the Deore, SLX and XT that most of us buy nowadays. The average family can afford to fly all over the world on holiday, we ride bikes made of carbon, and can send messages around the world via satellites. Hopefully one day, the benefits will become so cheap that they trickle right down to the Acera range to give kids in Africa clean drinking water.

The thing that concerns me is not that the moon landing wasn't really such a big thing in the 60's, its more that I'm not sure what the XTR equivalent spearhead is nowadays...

A space elevator would do it, but that will probably be built for commercial gain (not that this is necessarily a bad thing). As I see it, the next people to walk on the moon will be tourists. Mars is a long way off (in both senses), I suspect that if we do get there, it will be on a craft that can support life indefinitely and the people living on it will just be going there because there are bored of open space.

I would like to see huge developments in exploration and answering the fundamental questions just like everyone else, but there is more to gain from spreading our knowledge across the world's population, looking after the planet, and trying not to completely **** things up before we get the chance to really explore.

To put things into perspective:

“Most educated people are aware that we are the outcome of nearly 4 billion years of Darwinian selection, but many tend to think that humans are somehow the culmination. ... It will not be humans who watch the sun’s demise, six billion years from now. Any creatures that then exist will be as different from us as we are from bacteria or amoebae.”
- Martin Rees

We have plenty of time to get to Mars. The last few decades of advancement have been good enough for me.

I also heard an interview with an another early cosmonaut who went up as a team of three - but there were only funds for two space suits so he didn't get one. The interviewer asked him what he wore instead "pretty much the same sort of thing as I'm wearing now".

Not entirely accurate - that would have been Voskhod 1, where none of the cosmonauts wore suits, as the craft had been designed for 2 people and there wasn't space inside for 3 in suits. I should think the cost of a suit was fairly trivial compared to all the other costs involved!

No, it was a mission that involved a space walk between two capsules, obviously the guys doing the space walking got the suits

I don't think sending men to the moon was that big a deal. I mean it's hardly rocket science!

Boom, boom.

Columbus??

For all the folk moaning about what they see as a lack of progress here's my 2 cents:

I feel privileged to live in the internet era. Having so much information literally at my fingertips has enriched my life immeasurably. Impressive though it might be I doubt that a moon base would have had as much impact on me personally.

Americans have Columbus Day, but he never discovered America; Vikings and John Cabot did.

What about those people who discovered America after walking across the Bering Land Bridge ? (Not to mention the Solutrean people)

I think the Vikings turned up a little late for the party.

If nothing else it was the zenith of Nazi science.