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First shouty atheist wins five pounds.
I've always been agnostic, believing in something But certainly not a Christian God, or one so defined by the church. I have, however, come to the conclusion that the people I meet at church-I accompany Mrs.C now and again-are often the most decent, kind and helpful people I know. The most common factor in all the best & most respected people I know are involved in divinity; Vicars, practicing buddhists, a couple nuns. I see much to admire about endeavouring to live a decent, kind life and although that attitude is not exclusive to the religious, I find myself more often drawn to that community for answers and support.
To conclude, I'm going to church and stuff because I like the people. I'm not so keen on the hymns and -so far-reaching their God.
Faith shouldn't be a dirty word.
I don't mind religion as much as the people, conversely it's the people who go to church I don't like.
Most of them are tosspots who I wouldn't piss on if they were on fire.
It is round here.... 8)
I've always been agnostic, believing in something But certainly not a Christian God
I think you need to look up 'agnostic'.
Try not to behead anyone. And no rucksacks full of explosives. Especially on public transport.
No offence intended.
I don't have any faith that this will be a "nice chat". 😀
Religion it's like a penis, do what you want in private but don't go shoving it onto other people....
I've met a whole heap of great people who hold all of those values but are atheists.
I've met a bunch of people who are not the sort that I would want to spend any time with and are not nice people some are religious some are atheists.
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To sum it up though (Dawkins (mis)quote)
Good people do good things for good reasons
Bad people do bad things for bad reasons
Religion can make good people do bad things for what they think are good reasons.
Faith shouldn't be a dirty word.
But neither should atheism. We're not all Dicky Dawkins tha knows.
I know some lovely people of 'faith' in fact a good friend is a lady vicar. But also some right twonks, a couple of whom hide behind there alleged religions as an excuse for some outright bad behaviour.
On the other hand I know some really mellow and charitable atheists, who in most societies would be pegged as 'religious' because of what they get up to, but they just love humanity.
I also know some right pricks who are atheists. One especially who's views have really wound me right up recently!
So, in conclusion, it takes all sorts 😆
To sum it up though (Dawkins (mis)quote)
Sometimes attributed to Steven Weinberg but there are much older versions that say much the same thing.
The most common factor in all the best & most respected people I know are involved in divinity;
You are skewing the possibility of meeting an individual you respect through by going to a church, where as meeting people outside of church you are interacting with the entire population. In addition to this you are meeting people in different environments and situations which will again effect how you interact and judge them.
I think there are plenty of thoughtful, morally philosophical atheists (and religion in its essence in a mixture of moral philosophy with some baggage and constraints of tradition and a added hierarchical structure of whatever tha said religion is) but you you are less likely to come across these morally philosophical atheist unless you are involved in some sort of meeting or group that they attend. Hope that make sense!
The most common factor in all the [s]best & most respected[/s] dullest people I know are involved in divinity
FTFY
Seriously though projection isn't all ways a negative, no matter what Freud says.
All sounds a bit suspicious.. Lured in with the nicely nicely approach and BAM!
Singing happy clappy songs in sandles, socks and beard before you knows it.
Atheists are just as stupid as Theists, logically in the face of all the evidence, there can only be agnosticism.
^^ Wat!!
Yes, they are nice people ...
I used to see this nice looking lady handing out leaflet in GeordieLand with a smile, while I was tempted to stop to chat, I thought the public would refer me as a dirty old man if I stop to chat to her.
There was also an old gentleman standing opposite her doing the same thing. I thought to myself how sad to see an old man out in the cold to hand out leaflet ...
Was tempted to tell both of them to save themselves rather than trying in vain to persuade others. [u]There is no wrong in not trying to save the ZMs.
[/u]
I think next time I will stop to chat to her ... I did give her a polite smile though.
😛
Atheists are just as stupid as Theists, logically in the face of all the evidence, there can only be agnosticism.
Not really. An atheist is someone who takes their cues from science. Now any scientist will tell you that they will change there views based on the current and most valid data. So they are willing to change their viewpoint based on evidence. So if there were any evidence produced that there was a God, or life after death, or anything remotely provable to religion then that would mean they would change their views based on that.
However, a theist bases their views purely on faith. No proof needed. So will not generally change their views whatever the evidence (or lack of)
I definitely believe it's true that church organisations seem to feature lots of [i]pleasant people in jumpers[/i].
These people exist in plenty of secular places too though. Go looking at any community group, youth organisation, charitable causes, model railway enthusiasts, etc and you'll find them in droves.
I think churches are just a common focal point that many people see.
Plus of course huge aspects of our society are (historically) built around the church as a community hub. So they often still attract the community-minded people.
Even these days I find that living in a small village we regularly use the local church halls for birthdays and events, despite being godless heathens ourselves.
We have three old women living over the back from us, in their 80's I'd imagine. All three are members of the brethren church, wearing their cute wee hats, nice wee floral dresses and handbags, how quaint.
Three more bitter, nasty, evil ****s you will never meet in your life. I'm out.
To the OP: Are you an agnostic theist then? Its an unusual but not entirely illogical stance. Some might argue that all theists are agnostic but its not the tack most people of faith take.
I chat to atheists too, that's what they have professed to be, but they can be rather inconsistent in their logic at times. 😀
Nobeerinthefridge - Member
Three more bitter, nasty, evil **** you will never meet in your life. I'm out.
I see you have met the devils in disguised then ... 😯
Atheists are just as stupid as Theists, logically in the face of all the evidence, there can only be agnosticism.
Does a shouty agnostic still win a fiver?
Our religious education teacher was the spawn of satan. He wouldn't think twice of throwing the board duster at your head or slap you hard across your face.
That shaped my vision of faith.
If believing in some stupid book gives you some kind of inner mumbo jumbo, good for you. I for one really couldn't care less.
I go to church for weddings and funerals as a mark of respect for loved ones but don't get this god stuff.
I'm a insomniac,agnostic,dyslexic.
INSERT PUNCHLINE HERE.
All the best RE teachers I know are either atheists or agnostics. A person of any faith actually makes a really bad religious teacher - well unless they are teaching only one religion, which doesn't happen in UK state schools, but may do in some faith schools.
Modern RE in schools comes under the heading of Philosophy and Ethics, but is often pigeonholed as 'religious education' which puts a lot of kids off something that should be a much broader forum for discussing ideas and cultures.
My wife's an RE teacher - can you tell 😉
Spin - Member
To the OP: Are you an agnostic theist then?
If that can be reduced to "I believe there could be a God, maybe, I'm fine believing there is & I'm certain there's something" them yes. As much as I would be fine believing in unicorns, minitaurs and ghosts if it helped me with life.
ajantom - Member
Atheists are just as stupid as Theists, logically in the face of all the evidence, there can only be agnosticism.
Not really. An atheist is someone who takes their cues from science. Now any scientist will tell you that they will change there views based on the current and most valid data. So they are willing to change their viewpoint based on evidence. So if there were any evidence produced that there was a God, or life after death, or anything remotely provable to religion then that would mean they would change their views based on that.
Would that be the same scientists that talk of the God Particle in their search for some higgs boson or dark matter or whatever = they don't know = they can only be agnostic as well. 😉
In that case your just a plain old theist.
^+1 Derek. I absolutely believe that if you believe in any intangible force to guide your actions-luck, fate, karma - you may as well believe in a God or a dolphin or whatever.
I am fine with theist.
I would be fine believing in unicorns
Unicorns exits
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That depends on how you define god. You can define god however you want. one way would be anything we can't explain. Anything and everything outside of this universe. A bearded being in this universe. All of the universe. Many of which can be just analogies but I believe that these analogies have been take too literally which has resulted in the proposition of a "god being" used in many faiths.
Would that be the same scientists that talk of the God Particle in their search for some higgs boson or dark matter or whatever = they don't know = they can only be agnostic as well
I don't know any scientists who call it the 'God Particle' - think that was some throwaway comment that one made, the press picked up on it, and now they're all embarrassed by the term.
They don't know, because they haven't found the proof yet. But their current theories will change based on what they find or don't find. You know, actual proof due to experimentation.
Well I suppose you might equate the Higgs Boson with agnosticism since there is a hypothesis to support its existence - ergo it may or may not exist.
In the case of God, where no evidence at all exists, I remain an atheist.
I would admit that most of the religious people I've met have been perfectly pleasant, but then so have most of the atheists too. I tend to avoid arseholes so don't get any insight into their faith or lack thereof.
ajantom - Member
Would that be the same scientists that talk of the God Particle in their search for some higgs boson or dark matter or whatever = they don't know = they can only be agnostic as well
I don't know any scientists who call it the 'God Particle' - think that was some throwaway comment that one made, the press picked up on it, and now they're all embarrassed by the term.They don't know, because they haven't found the proof yet. But their current theories will change based on what they find or don't find. You know, actual proof due to experimentation.
So that conclusive experiment, it can only be by bringing back somebody from the dead.
Which anecdotally has occurred, but not under 'scientific conditions' so have alleged incidents of re incarnations, examples of regressive hypnosis etc some of those were carried out under pseudo scientific conditions. Yet still they do not, nor cannot ever know conclusively.
Therefore - we can only content ourselves with being Agnostic and seekers of the truth.
Atheists have already made up their mind so have no need to try, Theists have also faith in their belief.
Which re affirms my contention that Agnosticism can be the only way for the thinking man/woman/child.
Not a good analogy as we can and now do know about the Higgs. Agnosticism doesn't mean we dont know about god it means we can't know.
a·the·ist
??TH??st/
noun
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods
vs
ag·nos·tic
a??nästik/
noun
1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
It is possible to have no belief in something but accept if credible evidence is presented that it exists it exists. An atheist can have an open mind, agnostic is fence sitting despite there being a much stronger burden of proof to the case of no god.
Anyway on the OP there is not that much correlation that good people are religious and bad people are not.
[b]dereknightrider[/b]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
I've never met a dodgy Quaker.
Very much like a polite, English form of Buddhism.
All good sorts, do a good quiz night.
I have never met a Quaker.
However, I do like Quaker oats ... yes, yes, I know I know someone is going to accuse me of something now ...
😮
I definitely believe it's true that church organisations [b]seem to feature lots of pleasant people in jumpers.[/b]
It's the pleasant ones you have to look out for. Those are the ones who burn crosses on peoples lawns, hang black people, lynch gay people or gas Jews for the lolz.
They are pleasant because they would rather follow social convention or herd mentality, which leads to the above. They aren't actually nice people, they just seem it on the surface.
GrahamS - Member
dereknightrider: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
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Ah, but they [i]might[/i] have a teapot on the International Spacestation. 😉
It's the pleasant ones you have to look out for.
Some people are genuinely pleasant and nice, of faith and of no faith other are outwardly pleasant but judgmental and horrid in reality but I don't think you can tell that because they look pleasant and are of faith that they are nasty.
Ah, but they might have a teapot on the International Spacestation.
a quick call should verify if they do or not, if I was claiming there was one I could get a photo of it or maybe get it on a live video link to prove it's existence.
Some people are genuinely pleasant and nice, of faith and of no faith other are outwardly pleasant but judgmental and horrid in reality but I don't think you can tell that because they look pleasant and are of faith that they are nasty.
10 quid says that there will be more UKIP voters found in any given church on a Sunday in comparison the normal population, at a statistically significant level.
Unless it's a church full of Nigerian immigrants etc. 
Buohahahahah.
Anglicans are the group most likely to vote UKIP; this is clearly a demographic where Farage's party is badly hurting the Conservatives. 18.3% of Anglicans plan to vote for UKIP at the next general election.
I rest my case, if I walk into an Anglican church I can automatically assume that 1 in 5 of them is a ****.
10 quid says that there will be more UKIP voters found in any given church on a Sunday in comparison the normal population, at a statistically significant level.Unless it's a church full of Nigerian immigrants etc.
Ha! Quite possible ture.
I wonder how that stat would hold up if you normalised for the age bias that both UKIP and Anglican church congregations have?
I wonder how that stat would hold up if you normalised for the age bias that both UKIP and Anglican church congregations have?
There is that.
Damn you, it's just old people I hate then.
An edict from some "people of faith", earlier...
Faith is not a dirty word, some here try to make it one but it's not. A world without faith would be a lesser place.
and here's Richard being, er, strident...
A world without faith would be a [s]lesser[/s] better place.
How divine.
Can't decide if the OP is being very brave/naive posting that on here or if he is trolling.
Shame that it brings out all the shouty antireligious types to mock.
Have to agree, I have not met a person of any faith - Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or Jews - that have been in any way intolerant or antagonistic to people of other faiths or people like me with no faith. I know the intolerant zealots exist in all faiths, just I've not met any.
jambalaya - Member
Faith is not a dirty word, some here try to make it one but it's not. A world without faith would be a lesser place.
I'd echo that, with the caveat that it does make some folk more easy to manipulate, and not always in a good way.
I do think we all need something to believe in and didn't hesitate putting my kids through the mill, they then, like the rest of us have their doubts and seek other ideas, but it still comes down to the basic fact that we can't ever know for sure on this mortal coil.
They have to appear nice otherwise the kids wouldnt trust em.
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I'm not [i]religious[/i] but I was sat in the sauna talking to three Muslims a couple of weeks ago talking about faith/ISIL etc and I said 'I'm not religious but when I'm in the middle of woods on a Sunday morning I feel closer to God'. One said that was beautiful.
That is me.
OMG, I've just agreed with jambalaya!
Faith can truly bring people together
Shame that it brings out all the shouty antireligious types to mock.
Oh, the ironing. 😆
I'd echo that, with the caveat that it does make some folk more easy to manipulate, and not always in a good way.
So, not, then...
Faith can truly bring people together
So can traffic jams. So what?
On a more serious note, how would you know if you'd met a Quaker?
Like I suspect most people I have no interest in religion except where it affects me and mine. However this can manifest itself in different ways. There are bishops in the House of Lords, there are faith schools and Iam sure governments do occasionally listen to faith charities. This is not necessarily bad, churches are hopefully looking out for poor people but we need to be careful. For instance large areas of the city I live in have only recently acquired pubs as the council back in the day were Methodists!
German Army in WWI 'we have God on our side'
British Army in WWI 'we have God on our side'
So if hes on both sides?
"He's", er, not...
Personally I think anything that makes you feel better and kinder towards the world and people around you, be it a single god, a melange of gods or a spagetti bowl of them, then good on you.
I have always felt religion is great, until people get involved.
Going back to the teaching or RE, i was taught by catholic monks and used to get really pissed off when they couldnt asnswer a question they just said that you need to have faith - AAAAAAAAAGH
I used to believe when I was younger based on Fear of burning for eternity (not love/compassion/faith) but don't now after 50yrs of seeing what its all really about (Control/Fear OH and Money) and so for That reason 'Im out'.
I just try to live my life being as nice as possible and helping people when and where I can, and im sure we'll ALL find out one day 🙂
and im sure IF there is a Big invisible man in the sky he/she will understand my reasoning 😆
It's the pleasant ones you have to look out for. Those are the ones who burn crosses on peoples lawns, hang black people, lynch gay people or gas Jews for the lolz.They are pleasant because they would rather follow social convention or herd mentality, which leads to the above. They aren't actually nice people, they just seem it on the surface.
That's like saying ban politics because of the naz... whoops, I mean because of stalin. Near Godwin. The point is to have [i]nice [/i]politics...
Anyway, being nice on the surface is good enough for me, who knows/cares what folk are like deep down? If being a Quaker, Buddhist, provisional wing of the CoE or other religions that say the nice will inherit the earth makes the 'social convention' folk act nicer than they otherwise would, isn't this a good thing?
According to George Michael "you got to have faith" so there.
From my school in the 60's (and this is true) -
Good morning boys, I am Mr Davies your new RI teacher.
Good morning Mr Davis.
Ok before we proceed with this mornings lesson, I would like to know if anyone one amongst you does not believe in God?
School rebel Mike X - I don't believe in God Mr Davies
(Mr Davies) Could you please come hear.
At this point Mr Davies knocks Mike x all round the classroom with some serious physical contact.
(Mr Davies) Do you believe in God now Michael ?
(Mike X) - Yes Mr Davies.
(Mr Davies) OK go and sit down, so we can continue with the lesson
:o(
Harsh. My RE teacher (in the 80s) was very much the [i]nice jumper-wearing type[/i], but contrary to ajantom's points she was very clearly Christian and taught us RE on the basis of "Let's spending five minutes laughing at what these silly foreign people believe. Look their God is an elephant! Right, now here's the real truth." 😕
Shame, despite not being religious I do think that learning about religions can be a valuable insight into other philosophies and cultures.
I'd like to believe that things have changed, but our four year old attends a [i]supposedly[/i] secular state school said to me the other day [i]"Daddy I know a story that is actually really true. Really. God made people out of clay. [Headmistress] told us."[/i] 🙄
Yep Religious Education should be learning and studying religion not practicing one of them.
By the age of 5 my lad came home from his very CofE school and said "There isn't really a God is there?"
I was really proud of him, and it opened up an easy conversation about how the important thing is to be nice to each other.
Have to agree, I have not met a person of any faith - Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or Jews - that have been in any way intolerant or antagonistic to people of other faiths or people like me with no faith. I know the intolerant zealots exist in all faiths, just I've not met any.
I've met several thoroughly unpleasant Christians. Hope that helps.
Shame that it brings out all the shouty antireligious types to mock.
So it does, all one of them.
In fact, the number of shouty anti-religious types on this thread is fewer than the number of people complaining about them.
TBH my personal experience of religious people stopped me from completely going off the rails. I met some real strong/good role models who had strong faith. Who gave up their spare time from busy lives/with children to improve and help those around them.
When we hear of religion we all seem to think of the negative side and not the good that it can also bring out in people.
Anyway.
This whole religious / non-religious people are this, that and the other is a load of pish. It's a rash generalisation, we're attaching a label to the demographic of 'people' and then trying to prove a point with it.
The fact of the matter is much simpler. Some people are nice, some people are not so nice. Some are downright bloody nasty. Some help their fellow man, some are generous to a fault, some are wholly self-centred. All of this is irrespective of whether they're religious, irreligious or anti-religious; so cherry-picking "oh, my mate Geoff is an Atheist / Christian / Seventh Day Advent Hoppist and he's lovely" is pointless.
Religion does have powers of persuasion (by definition, otherwise it would've gone away by now) and so it's possible that some chapters may seek to better people, and equally some may have the opposite goal. But they're not mutually dependant; any community (or even a personal desire to better yourself) can promote personal growth, and conversely it's quite possible to attend churches, clubs, community centres and still be a shithead.
TBH my personal experience of religious people stopped me from completely going off the rails. I met some real strong/good role models who had strong faith. Who gave up their spare time from busy lives/with children to improve and help those around them.
Must just be a nice human thing as the ones I've met are not religious.
Correlation vs causation time again?
and im sure IF there is a Big invisible man in the sky he/she will understand my reasoning
Well that depends. Apparently he can be merciful and/or jealous, so you need to catch him on a good day.
I don't go to church, I did get married in one - some of my mates are very keen Christians, but I think of myself more humanistic with a moral code based on Christianity because that's what we had in school.
My 2p:
I've met a few religious types who want to save the rest of us, but they're very much in the minority and typically have some sort of mild mental health issue to accompany it - their faith is typically just a tool they use to justify their actions - I put the current crop of psychopaths and plain evil ****ers murdering people in the same broad category, although their condition is anything but "mild" -it's not about faith in the same way 'The Troubles' had nothing to do with Catholics and Protestants - it's more to do with control and frankly - well we brought it on ourselves (Western World) we created the perfect breeding ground for it.
A lot of people have used Faith to serve themselves from the creation of the CoE largely so he could remarry and all the murdering that went along with it - to the persecution of Buddhists in China and Tibet when China declared Religion to be poison and all that.
But in the grand scheme of things Religion has been a hugely positive thing for the human race - people will genuinely try their best to help people they've never met because it's the right thing to do - not because they're told to or because they think they'll be rewarded.
Different Faiths do indeed feed the hungry and shelter the poor.
In my experience the most vocal people when it comes to religion are those who call themselves Atheists or whathaveyou (I see there's some argument over the terms) they're the first to start soapboxing, the most certain that people with different views need to be saved - some have their reasons, some have decided it because of reasoned thought - but quite a lot (IMO) are just to arrogant to accept their might be a higher power than their own.
personally it has more to do with the fact that as science has progressed there is no indication that he exists. *edit - I find the universe humbling enoughbut quite a lot (IMO) are just to arrogant to accept their might be a higher power than their own
Being Catholic by birth I find the hypocracy that has gone on in the hierachy there quite breathtaking - although Francis seems to be going in the right direction.
As I said religion is great until people become involved
just to arrogant to accept their might be a higher power than their own.
You're stepping into territory that dereknightrider and TheBrick touched on there.
I doubt that many, if any, atheists would be short-sighted enough to think that humans were the absolute pinnacle of evolution and the very best possible thing that the universe is capable of.
We only have a sample size of one habitable planet and there are potentially billions upon billions of them out there.
Atheism doesn't reject that. Neither does it arrogantly state that we know everything (as dereknightrider tried to imply).
Atheism is just the rejection of a belief in religious deities - nothing more.
that the people I meet at church-I accompany Mrs.C now and again-are often the most decent, kind and helpful people I know.
I think church goers are like all cross sections of the community. You get some gooduns and you get some baduns. For me, my experience of church goers is the complete opposite and couldn't possibly have found a more vile, back stabbing self-righteous cross-section of community if I had tried.