[Closed] A new snobbery

The "new snobbery" is a form of condescension practiced by university-educated "progressives" - directed at people they consider ignorant and bigoted,

That's not new. I'm 62 and have experienced it all my life.

It's hardly a new snobbery

To think that the solution to this is voting tory is bonkers, but maybe that's just my snobbery
But a decade of Tory austerity has only amplified the divides in the country

I’m mid 50s, working class background and have experienced differing degrees of snobbery from different quarters. The majority of it (including bullying) has not been from undergraduates or university ‘types’ it was and has almost always been from the arrogant, sneering ‘inverted’ snobs (in my eyes just ‘snobs’ by a different name)

You’d get called all kinds of names and sneered at for simply picking up litter. Caught reading a book on your lunch break would be just as bad.

OTOH, any class of ‘snob’ can look down their nose at you if you lack wealth, style, ‘status’ etc. The style and status may change but the attitudes remain roughly the same.

Brexit's the perfect example.

Just read a few pages of the brexit thread on here. All brexit voters are thick and working class, us educated remainers know what's best etc.

There’s also the pattern of describing people that you (or rather those you want to support you) disagree with as “the elite”… even if you have a private aircraft at your disposal yourself. Take that article… it runs with the idea that cooperating closely with other countries, or supporting a “woke” cause like not racially abusing footballers, are ideas held by a “small privileged elite”, when in fact they are entirely mainstream with abroad support.

What so often happens is that pointing out and describing the con that grifters and politicians push (be it Laurence Fox or Boris Johnson) to further their careers gets met by their followers with “we haven’t fallen for a con, are you calling us thick?” Pointing out the use of age old divide and rule techniques of blaming people not like us for our ills gets met with “but it is ‘their’ fault, it was better before ‘they’ came here, not our mate who’s one of ‘them’ though, stop calling us racist”.

There's something in that, but the premise doesn't necessarily justify the conclusions.

As Kimbers suggested, it could be seen as disingenuous Tory apologism

It’s not snobbery to my mind, but more a lack of empathy and tolerance of other people’s views. Plus the exploitation of people’s grievances (sometimes genuine, sometimes not) to make them feel they are the victims of snobbery or persecution. I don’t think this is new though is it? Once you get somebody into that mindset they are then far easier to mould to your way of thinking, especially if you start to offer what they perceive to be solutions.

... lack of empathy and tolerance of other people’s views.

I believe what we're seeing, is a lack of empathy towards people willfully ignoring evidence right in front of their eyes.

We live in times with more information and more education directly available to us than ever before, and yet there are a growing number of people who believe the earth is flat... An idea that hasn't been held for centuries.

And it seems this is happening because of the endless amounts of information available to us that we were never designed to process.

I find it a really fascinating topic and hope, for the sake of humanity if anything, that we come to understand better the human condition that dictates we follow emotion over logic.

I know two folks doing climate studies and these days how to communicate is an important part of the work.  It's too easy to assume that everyone thinks the same way as you.  It's why I like this place.  I trust a lot of the posters so even if I disagree I'm likely to still read and try and understand rather than assume I'm right

I also remember during the miners strike (yes that long ago) thinking it was all obvious until I started to read some of the history.  It's hard work to understand someone else's perspective so easier to be snobby.  Maybe we are just getting lazy

Utter claptrap in my opinion, that article - if anything, the biggest trend in recent politics (ridiculous polarisation and overt tribalism) has been driven and used BY the (elite) Brexiteers. It's not the fault of those who disagree with them and the triumphalist/nationalist crap that started before but has been continuously shat out by them and those they took along with them since the Brexit vote. Telling your own supporters that "the others" think they're idiots is just a continuation of the same game. Nothing motivates voters (& donors) like a cause, and you can't really motivate a movement without an enemy. Divide & conquer, innit

Attempting to respect to the OP's request, Brexit is the great example of this, of course. In my view it's a ****ing disaster and most particularly it will futher disadvantage a huge swathe of people who voted for it. Sorry, and all, but that does make them stupid in my view (I mean yes, they've been cynically duped but they're refusing to snap out of it). There is no credible benefit to Brexit (for them), never was; seems nobody even bothers pretending that there is any more but its supporters are enrenched in their polarised positions (yeah, as are their opponents) and they're still "chanting" their victory slogans.

The internet is the big enabler but it's still just manipulation at the heart of it all, as it always was - just easier these days.

COVID vaccines/lockdown etc - the same empowerment of people and groups to promote their ludicrous (though in some cases genuinely held) views & fears and eventually wilfully mislead people who are either ignorant or scared or both. Once there's a big enough presence on social media, it's almost self supporting with a few prompts and sucks in more & more (sorry) idiots. It's still manipulation to get it to that state - would love to know the funding sources for the major influencers and the big campaigns

These days everyone has to be a victim. Everyone thinks they have a legitimate grievance.

It’s not snobbery to my mind, but more a lack of empathy and tolerance of other people’s views.

A lot of people have enjoyed the comfortable delusion that their fellow citizens, are, for the most part, fair-minded and rational. This has been shattered comprehensively over the past few years, and the foul temper it has caused is just part of the grieving process.

Politicians and grifters see opportunity whenever there is division, so they have fed this resentment.

So are the working classes a model of tolerance and understanding of others? There's no sneering and condescension towards woke liberal metrosexuals etc?

The trouble with using Brexit as an example is that most of the people who now claim 'we knew what we were voting for' are simply not telling the truth, because the vast majority of 'project fear' turned out to be true.

I'm still waiting for the magical solution to how NI can be both in and out of the EU, with no extra red tape. People who questioned that at the time were essentially told 'shut up commie remoaner' but now we aren't allowed to be annoyed cos it hurts their feelings?

I think this kind of thing is similar to snobbery, but much more sinister.

I am more intelligent, have the ability for critical thinking, do research, draw fact based conclusions etc,. than the majority of people.
I appreciate and acknowledge that but it still makes it difficult to have others making a decision that impacts me based on something they have read on Facebook.
I am however not snobby and am open for discussion with anyone on anything and happy to understand their thinking or reasons behind their opinions.

I think someone higher up made a good point that, for example, in the case of Brexit, the thick narrative came from the brexiteers and then the two sides became defensive. Same with Woke and "being cancelled".

It's difficult as in these issues I've never felt the opposite view was playing by the same rules. For something like Brexit I looked at the evidence to make my decision and can back it up. But when talking to friends of opposing views there wasn't a logical decision they could explain it was emotional. So I called them thick racists 😉

I am more intelligent, have the ability for critical thinking, do research, draw fact based conclusions etc,. than the majority of people.

The trouble is that everyone thinks that, even people who have no real idea. I studied history at a good uni and have read a lot of literature on cognitive science, biases, logical fallacies etc - I try to question my own routinely. Most people aren't aware or simply aren't interested in challenging their biases.

That’s not new. I’m 62 and have experienced it all my life.

Definitely not new. Part of the reason medical terms used Latin to make it harder for mere commoners to get into medicine.

Most people aren’t aware or simply aren’t interested in challenging their biases.

I'm sure I've got plenty of biases that wouldn't stand up to much scrutiny, and most people would find it hard to function if they didn't have an internal narrative that cast them as essentially a good person with a few flaws.

It's normal for a human to have a combination of rational ideas and faith-based beliefs. The problem arises when the faith-based beliefs become predominant, or so bound with a person's self-image that nothing else can be allowed to intrude.

Over simplified claptrap. Sorry was that snobbish?

I am more intelligent, have the ability for critical thinking, do research, draw fact based conclusions etc,. than the majority of people.
The trouble is that everyone thinks that, even people who have no real idea.

I think this is the crux of it. Knowing your intellectual limits, strengths and weaknesses is a good thing. I honestly think a lot of folk just assume they’re smarter than most everyone else or that their emotional beliefs outweigh properly checked facts.

The whole working class thing is interesting. I grew up on a rough estate, left school with no GCSE’s or other formal qualifications. Yet I’d say I’m of average intelligence and just had an antiestablishment and rebellious steak about five miles wide.

Conversely one of my closest friends is educated to degree level and comes from a middle class background. I voted against Brexit, he voted for it. When I asked him what his rationale for doing so was he didn’t appear to have any.

As others have said what’s been described is nothing new and plays in to the ridiculous class stereotypes we adhere to in this country. I’m guilty of this in my own post. Sticking people in to easily defined boxes also helps fuel resentment and also sorts of snobbishness. Woke, Snowflake, Gammon, Metrosexual etc. It’s all rather stupid when you stop and think about it.

I’m sure I’ve got plenty of biases that wouldn’t stand up to much scrutiny, and most people would find it hard to function if they didn’t have an internal narrative that cast them as essentially a good person with a few flaws.

Experts in conspiracy theories generally reckon it won't take them long to find irrational/questionable/conspiratorial type beliefs in even the most ardent rational evidence-based skeptics etc

There's a good Derren Brown mini audio book on Audible about cognitive biases etc, very concise and easy to listen to.

It’s all rather stupid when you stop and think about it.

But a great tool to build a career and carve out a legacy with, if you’re smart enough, and egocentric/sociopathic enough.

It's not new. I've been doing it all my life - and I've only got 6 O-levels.

It’s not new. The use of divide and rule to prevent ‘intellectuals’ and ‘working classes’ having common cause.

The strength of an argument can be tested by how quickly terms of reference are reduced to ad homs: thick, chav, snob, woke, whatever. I come from a working class background but have acquired qualifications and taught for 35 years, primarily working class students. I worked on the assumption that most people can understand most things given the right descriptions, arguments and evidence. Skelton's arguments are ephemeral and reactionary but conveniently reported to stir people up and ossify their biases.

All pretty much summed up by variations of this meme 😂

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Scaredypants is bang-on in my opinion.

That article is doing exactly what it professes to be against, snobbery passed on a few clumsy indicators of class - "It's these woke, university educated, progressives that are the enemy of the working class". Utter bullshit.

What Brexit has shown is that the perverse trend of US politics (that the people who would most benefit from more leftist policies, are convinced to consistently vote against their best interests) can be duplicated in the UK.

Blaming one demographic's problems on "the elite" is literally the dictionary **** ing definition of populism. Now that the shower of bastards that brought you Brexit can't blame your woes on the "unelected bureaucrats in brussels" they are going to have to pick another group to classify as the "elite". And guess what - pretty neatly describes all of their political opposition.

Just more of the same cynical lies and manipulation to allow rich people to stay in power and make themselves and their mates even richer, without a care for what they are actually SUPPOSED to be doing.

I don't blame people for falling for this stuff - populism is SO powerful: it offers simple answers to complicated problems, and people really respond to that. It's even more powerful when no care at all is given to being truthful. Look at trump: constant outrageous lies - he just said whatever he wants, and he has a huge following, because people want to believe it.

Life not going the way you'd hoped? Can't afford the lavish lifestyles you see everyday on social media? It's not your fault..... it's the Westminster/washington elite, the woke lefties, or the EU, or the imigrants....

We need to come up with a stronger expression than "boils my piss"

Being called "woke" in a negative way by the willfully ignorant takes me right back to school days.

Utter claptrap in my opinion, that article

+1. It makes the claim:

According to Skelton, Leavers were subjected to abuse from people "generally wealthier and better educated than them - or with a higher level of academic education".

No example or evidence given. Just that random claim.

I know of this sackless *, he is a ckick bait generator looking for book sales from a set of "woe is me" pseudo working class background. The same git tweeted that Corbyns idea to scrap tuition fees was a "gift" to the middle classes...

He was born in Consett a town that has struggled more than most in the North East, he says his family is not bigoted... thats not even a step from "im not a racist but"

I *ing hate people like him who are simply trying to profit from other people's misfortune while doing * all about it. (Dont get me started on Sting and Shipyard musicals)

He is a * and he is one of the reasons that we in the North East still struggle to generate wealth by not accepting that these Tory ****s have and will continue to rob us blind.

He boils my piss.

Oh and the new Blyth to Newcastle railway line, a few locals have worked out its simply to ship cheap labour into the City a kind of "arbeitslos transport" thats German for unemployed.

Rant part 2..

I have said before i have family in Ashington/Bedlington, young adults who can not hold a conversation and speak a dialect that i struggle to understand even with 58 years exposure. These people have been painted into a corner and continue to respond to the type of bollocks this bloke writes.

Utter claptrap in my opinion, that article – if anything, the biggest trend in recent politics (ridiculous polarisation and overt tribalism)

Agreed, there should be a section in libraries for this stuff, 'isle 4 brexiter justification literature'

Ok prefer to begin taking that authors claims seriously there would have to be a Remained/ far left version of GB News for a start.

Anyone claiming the likes of the BBC is that hasn't even watched 15 minutes of GB News.

I think its the true "genius" of Dominic Cummings (if you like) that he realised he could exploit the disenfranchisement and division in specific strata of British society to actually bolster the cause of the very people that helped create those problems...

I'll admit I've labelled Leave/first time Tory voters swayed by Dom's touch as thick before... Is it a lack of empathy caused by my middle-class status, university education and general inability to perceive others perspectives? I'd like to think not. No it's more my growing incredulity as they first threw away EU membership to "show the elites" and then installed a pernicious, self interested, buffoon as our country's leader. All jollied along by some Jingoistic rhetoric, catchphrases and promises (lies) that will never be kept... I was perhaps naive enough to think the British "working classes" were able to see through such blatant bullshittery, so yeah when someone acts like a moron, I suppose it's fair to call them one, I'd expect no less in return.

On the one hand I think it's perhaps even good, in the longer term, that people who were disengaged from politics became interested and willing to participate again, let's hope people stay engaged. On the other hand part of that participation means listening to counter arguments, recognising when you are being cynically exploited by bastards, and maybe even being willing to adjust your thinking on occasion. Not just decrying any challenge as "snobbery" from condescending university types...

So yes Dom spotted the good old British class divisions as the vote scoring opportunity they were and won a Brexit and a Prime Ministerial appointment with it. But at some point those "Red brick" voters are going to expect some real changes to come their way in exchange for their votes, a bit of quid pro quo for selling their souls. More than just some fluffy headed **** jabbering about "levelling up" then cracking jokes about what his party did to the Mining industry...

Cookeea you may be suprised by the red wall response.. its along the lines of "well its not got much worse" which is a positive in their world.

All a bit Monty Python...

"Leveling up" is a phrase that strongly implies an improved situation.

Give it time, He'll **** 'em over...

and then installed a pernicious, self interested, buffoon as our country’s leader. All jollied along by some Jingoistic rhetoric, catchphrases and promises (lies) that will never be kept…

That may be true, but his party still have an 8 point lead in the latest YouGov poll (one day ago). I don't think this will change until it's obvious that the promises of levelling up etc aren't going to be delivered.

There’s also the pattern of describing people that you (or rather those you want to support you) disagree with as “the elite”… even if you have a private aircraft at your disposal yourself.

Much like Donald Trump after the US election.

There is a de ja voosery going on with the attack on university education, all very similar to the discrediting of experts that Cummings, Rees Mogg etc. started, and a big whiff of hatred for anyone that is able to see through or question the narrative.
Let the grunters that believe the garbage on GB news turn on the 'educated elite' and nurture a new voting base of captive revolutionaries, much like brexit where there was no reason to leave until they invented one, same again, hate the snobs that prevent the change you want, like you learned to hate the EU.

As someone who lives and works in Consett alot of people I've spoken to over the last five years see Brexit as levelling down. They didn't vote to make their lives better, they voted against what they believe was a system from which someone else was benefitting and they were not. Not one person I have spoken to claimed that Brexit would improve their life and I've yet to find someone disappointed with the way it's gone.

If you apply that logic to politics more widely it's easy to see how only hard left socialism or hard right libertarian politics thrive.

What benpinnick says is absolutely correct, there is no expectation if improvement. The target for this vote was and is about the perception that people like me (ironically from an absolute piss poor background) benefit from the "system" the "elites" are perceived as being people like me not the invisible ***** actually stripping them of their rights and limited incomes.

I have said before i have had family members from Ashington tell me that me and my kids have had advantages theirs didn't have (ironically again my Dad probably earnt half of what gheir Dads earnt at Alcan and the Power Station) they honestly think i have had some invisible benefit

I think the point above from Ben “levelling down” rings true for me. The anti-expert, anti-intellectualism ties very much into that.

This is the most lucid and informed thread I have read on this on any forum, benpinnick and oldmanmtb2 in just two posts explain a phenomena that has probably been lying dormant for years and motivated things that didn't make sense(to me) during the brexit shift toward the likes of Farage.

Is this an educational divide?(or perception of intellect divide) I see a close cousin in Scotland, the privileged south rather than the educational elite, but I think it's a step further along, it's actually the right wing lower orders that is the real enemy here now, they are seen as the new majority UK voting base as proved by brexit.

it’s actually the right wing lower orders that is the real enemy here now, they are seen as the new majority UK voting base as proved by brexit.

I don't know. I'm not sure they're really the 'enemy' (and avoiding discussions of how to name them) - the problem is with the RW elite that has found a way to mobilise the disgruntled far better than the LW has managed to retain their support.

Sure, they've done it with populism and outright lies; the LW can argue that they didn't play fair but they played the game far better and for that Cummings and co can take credit.

The things that worry me are - how have the RW elite managed to demonise the LW dinner party classes into this educational divide without it being spotted that the RW elite and their Eton educations etc. have never been there for the working classes and never will be.

And secondly, what will it take for that realisation; specifically we've become a culture that can't say 'I was wrong' so will continue this path of self destruction rather than admit to being fooled?

They didn’t vote to make their lives better, they voted against what they believe was a system from which someone else was benefitting and they were not.

This seems horribly plausible, given the number of times I've seen people proudly boasting that their main motivation in voting a certain way wasn't for some personal gain but because it upset other people. It's a spiteful motivation and I'm quite at a loss as to how you can make any reasonable appeal to people who think that way.

the right wing lower orders

I don't think it's right to describe any group as "the lower orders".

alot of people I’ve spoken to over the last five years see Brexit as levelling down. They didn’t vote to make their lives better, they voted against what they believe was a system from which someone else was benefitting and they were not. Not one person I have spoken to claimed that Brexit would improve their life

Agreed. This is the only single reason for voting Bexit that I respect. It's basically saying that their life is shit, it will get even shitter but they hope that in doing so it gives some of the [generally] London privileged at least a modicum of the pain they have experienced.

This is the only single reason for voting Bexit that I respect.

Respect isn't a word I would use in this instance as it is utterly undeserved. Describes modern society to a T though, why make life better for yourself when you can **** it up for someone else?

...the RW elite and their Eton educations etc. have never been there for the working classes and never will be.

They have an excuse now too. "Sorry, we know we promised levelling up and investing oodles of money in poorer areas but you know, Covid. So we all now need to tighten our belts for a few years (well you lot do)".

Interesting thread to read as an immigrant who has never been able to fathom the English class system and how pervasive it is.

Having lived in Oz, NZ, Canada, France, Scotland and England I can safely say every country has a % of folk who seem happiest when complaining and spiteful but it does seem more prevalent in England. It’s cause is obviously massively complex but looking for a simple reason I would blame the weather, bbc and murdoch

In my office the day after Brexit was like a wake most people have PhDs and clearly not one voted Brexit. At my sons football it’s the complete opposite they nearly all voted for Brexit and they all had different reasons. At the end of the day it was a democratic vote and leave on by 1.3 million votes. Not everyone voted for racist reasons, some for example were not comfortable with the direction of the European project was heading.

All I can say in recent History it tends to end badly when the right wing get the support of the working classes Hilter, Thatcher and Trump and it’s usually those folk who suffer most.

There in lies the irony of that vote, to be blunt for brexit to actually impact my well being other than making certain things a chew its going to have to become absolutely awful for many who voted for brexit.

Currently its probably as bad as its going to get until inflation kicks in and interet rates rise. I dont think there will ever be a redwall backlash as the reality is they will just retreat back to not voting and we will see a return to traditional party politics.

Brexit/Boris is not a one trick pony but it has diminishing returns and disenfranchisement will return "well we tried attitude" these folks will be ground down by inflation and interest rates rather than unemployment and the inevitable bubble going pop.

All I can say in recent History it tends to end badly when the right wing get the support of the working classes Hilter, Thatcher and Trump and it’s usually those folk who suffer most.

And it happens again and again… It’s situations like these which remind me of the musings of Cicero that my peers studied for history A-Level nearly 30 years ago. I he said something like: “To not know what happened before you were born - is to remain forever a child”.

Please feel free to correct - if it isn’t right or is mis-attributed.

The things that worry me are – how have the RW elite managed to demonise the LW dinner party classes into this educational divide without it being spotted that the RW elite and their Eton educations etc. have never been there for the working classes and never will be.

They did have some help, from the “left” of all places. I’ve never found it hard to find some amongst those railing against the right spewing out just as much bile against the wrong sort of left.

Or spewing out that bile against the wrong sort of (chattering class) left, while bizarrely defending the (born to rule) right.

Yes, some of the as well.

It's all but forgotten that prior to Thatcher it was the left that railed against the EU, Thatcher headed the campaign to go into Europe, it was a conservative initiative, as was forming the single market, those old labour voters are still alive, and brexit no doubt resonated with some, it wasn't them that changed it was Ukip and then the tory party that shifted in a U turn to catch them.

I don’t know. I’m not sure they’re really the ‘enemy’

'Enemy' as in opposing threat, from a Scottish point of view which is 10% of the UK vote, it is a concern that the other 90% and deciding majority is pro things that would not be voted for nationally, brexit for example, this justifies and entrenches SNP views that England(by voting majority) is moving further to the right and dragging N Ireland, Scotland and Wales with it.

alot of people I’ve spoken to over the last five years see Brexit as levelling down. They didn’t vote to make their lives better, they voted against what they believe was a system from which someone else was benefitting and they were not. Not one person I have spoken to claimed that Brexit would improve their life and I’ve yet to find someone disappointed with the way it’s gone.

Different but similar area, agree with the observation.

I'll name it "shy inverse snobbery"; their reaction to this so-called new snobbery, which they're not vocal about but quietly approve of and vote for.

I'm from a leave-susceptible background but managed to drag myself just about out of it through education and work, very lucky. And they certainly have made a dent in levelling me down, although tbf not as much as I thought they would - Covid is possibly to thank for that, and I appreciate others have it much worse. Now when I go back to visit my hometown, I'm not in a nice car, I don't have stories to tell of my holiday or work trips abroad, and I'm not optimistic for what's going on at work now/next. Brought me down a bit closer to where they think I belong, they know they have, and they know I know that, but neither of us says anything.

"He's above his station he is"

"Needs taking down a peg or two"

My extended brexity/boris redwallers are painfully aware that my family have prospered during brexit/covid.

I kmow it winds them up... i have had the comments.

**** em should have spent more time in education/work and less in the pub/sat on their arse.

To provide some anecdotal data of my own regarding people I know who voted brexit. (And FYI I'm personally very pro-remain)

My previous senior at work. Probably earning about £75k.

My university educated mate who's been in the police for the last 20 years. Probably earning about £60k

My dad, retired but was a self employed builder and did alright out of it.

My mechanic mate, owns his own garage plus a couple of other units which he rents out. Only now works when he wants to.

Absolutely no politics of envy or reverse snobbery when it came to brexit.

Just because the only people you know who voted for it are uneducated losers doesn't mean all brexit voters are. And to keep thinking that is exactly what that article is about. But I guess it's easier just to generalise.

If there's one thing it is justifiable to be snobbish about it is stupidity.

I don't think for a moment that stupidity/bigotry is limited to people on low incomes.

Not saying that applies to all Brexit voters either. But I'm afraid trying to pretend there wasn't a hefty strand of sinister nativism in the Brexit vote is just not credible. Not sure about the 'politics of envy' part TBH.

But at some point those “Red brick” voters are going to expect some real changes to come their way in exchange for their votes, a bit of quid pro quo for selling their souls.

Well, maybe.

Unless of course some other invented enemy is conjured up for them to vote against.

“To not know what happened before you were born – is to remain forever a child”.

Doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past etc. etc.

Many variations.

This is quickly morphing into a second Brexit thread.

The book is just another attempt at framing difficult questions into one simple answer, quite why it's ended up on news sites is anyone's guess. Typical clap-trap from the usual political authors furthering their own career by saying nothing new or particularly interesting.

All I can say in recent History it tends to end badly when the right wing get the support of the working classes Hilter, Thatcher and Trump and it’s usually those folk who suffer most.

It's very easy to appeal to the basest human instincts.
It takes an awful lot of work, a major disaster or war to bring out the better side of human nature in the majority of us.

I can't argue with the article.

I know, I know, Brexit, but the dreaded Referendum have proven to be one of the biggest changes in UK politics for decades and there is no going back to the 'old normal'.

The UK left the EU because the Remain campaign and remainers in general didn't listen, because they knew better and Boris and Farage exploited that.

I said it after the Referendum and was shot to shit on here because we still couldn't accept we'd ****ed it all up, no it wasn't our fault, we were right all along weren't we?

Leavers said they hated being told what to do by the EU, and we either told them they were wrong, or ignored it.

Leavers said they didn't want any more asylum seekers and migrants and we told them they were racist xenophobes and spent months telling the people of former mining and manufacturing towns that if they voted leave then our Finance and Services industries would suffer, the industries that ignored them for decades.

Worse still, when we lost, we refused to believe it, we told leavers they'd been duped, we even questioned the validity of the result, well before Trump made it fashionable. We blame Boris, the Tories and Farage, but Remainers were the architects of our Hard Brexit, because we were never willing to accept leaving, let alone work to find a model outside of the EU we were willing to live with.

Remainers made politics Tribal and that's why Boris Johnson will be PM until 2024, and unless the left learns some humility, empathy and tolerance, the Tories will win again.

Leavers said they hated being told what to do by the EU, and we either told them they were wrong

Does it not matter in your narrative that they actually were wrong though? About almost everything.

We should 'listen more' even when people are talking shite - interesting...

We blame Boris, the Tories and Farage, but Remainers were the architects of our Hard Brexit, because we were never willing to accept leaving, let alone work to find a model outside of the EU we were willing to live with.

Time to close this thread if it's just becoming yet another Brexit thread. But that isn't what happened. "Remainers" put forward all sorts of proposals for a post Brexit relationship with the EU (not least the SNP), and all were rejected as being "not real Brexit"... including by the man who used that idea to become PM. The "vote again" campaign only picked up steam later on, when all attempts to avoid a hard Brexit (which is what we now have) had been rejected by those claiming to speak "for the people".

Politics on the EU was already tribal decades before the referendum.

Does it not matter in your narrative that they actually were wrong though? About almost everything.

We should ‘listen more’ even when people are talking shite – interesting…

Yes, you should listen to people, even if you don't agree with them rather than just saying they're "talking shite".

This is the problem, we're so sure we're 100% right about everything, we're unwilling to even consider any other opinion, we'd rather just try to shout them down, paint them as stupid or evil and force everything into a them and us argument.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-british-public-wrong-about-nearly-everything-survey-shows-a7074311.html

I would argue there's been way too much listening to people who haven't bothered to find out that the facts don't support their prejudices, but hey...

I get what you're saying but shouldn't we expect people to at least try and use rational reasoning over monkey-brain emotions when making important decisions?

That article is a lot of pish.

Its basically special pleading and boils down to "I think my opinions are correct and if you challenge me you are a snob / elite / woke". Its yet more manufacturing of grievance

There is such a thing as objective fact. The Earth is a sphere, 4 < 5, the British Economy is smaller today than it would have been without Brexit etc.

The problem is a massive proliferation of media channels that reinforce and legitimise pretty much any view. We just end up siloed into little echo chambers. There is basically no mainstream reasonable discourse anymore and people bump along without ever having their ideas challenged.

The other issue is the "footballification" of these different bubbles. There are plenty of football rivalries where what makes you happiest isn't your team winning its the other team losing (I'm from Glasgow so Ranger / Celtic is the perfect example but there are plenty of others). Some of the bubbles are now so entrenched that they act the same way. "I don't care whether this is a good idea or not, so long as you don't like it or it makes your life worse.