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Was reading about that possibility earlier. Just looking for confirmation that I did read it and that nobody has been slipping me lsd earlier.
Quite possibly
Was you expecting labour to go into some sort of coalition with someone else?
No, I was expecting the SNP to take over the world. Mwahahahahahaha. 😉
Ideologically, they are pretty close...
Mwahahahahahaha.
😀
Mcwahahahahahaha.
FTFY.
Racist.
Or perhaps you're infringing on McDonald's trademark.
It's going to be very messy. Expect all kinds of games and tricks from all parties trying to win an election which none of them have a chance of winning cos no-one thinks they're fit to govern or has any honest idea how to get the economy out of the insane amount of debt we're in...
For the first time in my life I'm not sure I'll vote.
I suspect a lot of people share the same view, which means whatever government we end up with will be a weak, partisan mess without any real mandate from the UK electorate.
It won't do our global standing or our economy any good, mind... the effects will be everyday and real, well beyond Westminster Village.
With luck, the uncertainty will keep Gideon too busy to think of any more damn fool tricks with the housing market...
It's the rational outcome, we're well past the point where you could look at most policies and be sure which of the two parties they belong to.
It would save us the horror story of who takes over from Dave and Ed
George or Theresa - aargh
Ed, Yvette, Rache or Andy - aargh
Sorry state of affairs.
Better outcome than having a minority party calling the shots
Did you see Blair's comments a few days ago, a left wing party cannot be elected in the UK, you have to be in the centre or centre right.
Labour. It doesn't make sense for them to form a coalition with the SNP as that means less Labour MPs forever more as Scotland moves further away from the UK - that being the key demand from the SNP
Tory. Neither Lib Dems or UKIP will have sufficent MPs to make a difference
if anyone, honestly, can think of a decent outcome, please let me know
Could be interesting. They form a coalition then three months in a whole load of actual left wingers from Labour split off to form an actual left party, then the hard right from the tories join UKIP and we'll have three parties again - middle left and centre - but with different people.
Did you see Blair's comments a few days ago, a left wing party cannot be elected in the UK, you have to be in the centre or centre right.
Shows how totally screwed up the Westminster electoral system is. If you survey people - show them a list of policies an see which ones they agree with - most people turn out pretty left-wing. Something like 70% should be voting Green. But they don't, because the Greens have no chance. Why do the Greens have no chance? Because no-one votes for them.
The two main party leaders have approval ratings in the high negatives, but it's absolutely certain to be one of those two who becomes PM.
Basically, we don't live in a democacy, so a government of natioanl unity is the next logical step. It makes it totally pointless voting instead of mostly pointless.
do you think a Labouratory coalition will bring scotland closer to the uk? 😆jambalaya - Member
Labour. It doesn't make sense for them to form a coalition with the SNP as that means less Labour MPs forever more as Scotland moves further away from the UK - that being the key demand from the SNP
Basically, we don't live in a democacy,
What is it then?
It makes it totally pointless voting instead of mostly pointless.
Now that would kill the democratic process! Seems to me that we are free to vote how we want. If people want to reject that democratic freedom then they only have themselves to blame.
proxi-ism.teamhurtmore - Member
Basically, we don't live in a democacy,
What is it then?
Thm, are you actually stalking Ben? 😆
Nobeerinthefridge - Member
Thm, are you actually stalking Ben?
😉 no I just love ben's posts (almost as much as his pictures from wacky places)
What is it then
A kleptocracy.
@ben yes I am sure if you survey people they will tick all the social conscious boxes the tricky part is how you pay for it, that's where the divisions occur. It's a deliberate misconception to suggest the Tories/right don't have a social policy agenda, it's a case of degree.
Well at least we had one successful democratic experiment in the last 12 months and people have accepted that result very well. 😉
If you survey people - show them a list of policies an see which ones they agree with - most people turn out pretty left-wing
mine came out mostly as BNP-UKIP with Green. SO that's 2 left parties and one right (although one of those left, poeple generally assume as right, but policies are actually rather left).
As one of the minority that makes a living making use of UK EU memberships... why the **** does those stupi facebook polls think my vote should align with 2 of the most devout anti-EU parties there are?
SO those vote for policies things are b******s. My vote used to be tactical against BNP, and now will be tactical against UKIP.
Germany had the equivalent of Con-Lab, but with a slight difference in that the Lab (equivalent) was Chancellor with Con winning the most seats, and the Con leader eventually ousting Lab (but not quite as easy as Dave did 4.5yrs ago). I've regularly suggested Con-Lab coalition, and now might be the right time for safety's sake.
Well at least we had one successful democratic experiment in the last 12 months and people have accepted that result very well.
Yup, it was so much fun we'll probably do it again soon 😀
Touché! 😀
And on that bombshell - sleep well.
Goodnight 😉
Basically, we don't live in a democacy
Of course we bloody do. Democracy means nothing more than politicans being elected. It doesn't mean good, free, representative or honest government - some people do conflate those things though. Often Americans, because of the Cold War.
We do live in a democracy, but it's not a very effective one. FPTP is not great, but the biggest problem is that the electorate don't live up to their side of the deal. For democracy to work, the electorate have to actually put some effort into understanding the issues and the process. Most people don't.
FPTP is not great, but the biggest problem is that the electorate don't live up to their side of the deal. For democracy to work, the electorate have to actually put some effort into understanding the issues and the process. Most people don't.
Maybe the opposite is true and the electorate have realised that the democratic system(FPTP) in the UK is bankrupt.Two thirds of MPs elected in 2010 had a majority of the electorate in their respective constituencies voting against them.Put some effort into understanding that!
And what was turnout? Who knows what the result would be if people turned out and voted how they really felt without worrying about wasted votes...
voting for a least worst available set of self serving ****s is a shit system.molgrips - Member
And what was turnout? Who knows what the result would be if people turned out and voted how they really felt without worrying about wasted votes...
Logical conclusion of New Labour really - love the market, love the causes of the market. Ideological numpties. How truly sad to forget what you believe in - especially in a world so brim full of injustice that it makes me get angrier and more militant as I hurtle towards bus pass status (assuming these buggers don't pull bus passes for older folk that is).
And all the time that tosser Osborne gets away unchallenged.........
Lab-Tory coalition in Westminster, might well end up with the leader of the SNP Westminster group as leader of the opposition. 😉
molgrips:
For democracy to work, the electorate have to actually put some effort into understanding the issues and the process. Most people don't.
This.
It's not very PC, but most people are to lazy to put the time into understanding the issues and policies.
It's too easy to believe the headlines and vote for the lowest common denominator.
What's needed is a 'your country needs you' style ad campaign.. Use all the WW1 and WW2 style propaganda, re-hash that bullshit Sainsburys ad..
Get people to realise that if we're not prepared to get off our arses and do a few hours research and then put pen to paper in the polling stations, then it's likely that our country will go to the dogs.
If we, the electorate don't fight for our country in the polling stations then there is every chance that the Eton Mafia, or worse, the UKIP fascists will win..
It is a war, it is a matter of national security, we're not being asked to take up arms and lay down our lives bit the situation really is that serious..
All we're being asked to do is give up a few hours of our time to glance through the manifestos and realise that the Greens have grown up and our ready to save our nation from the bastards
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times..
In the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness
Charles Dickens, A Tale Of Two Cities
How many hung parliaments will we need in the uk before they reconsider ftpt again? This is not a rhetorical question. I recall during the massive AV referendum argu-threads on here many people saying how great it was that ftpt (usually!) returns majority govenrmnents who are able to get on with the business of governing and legislating, largely free of the multi-party wranglings and massive compromises on policy common to coalition governments around the world. (See 'Borgen' for a simple to digest example, albeit one where everything looks much more slanted to the left).
voting for a least worst available set of self serving **** is a shit system.
It is, yes. Still democratic though.
The problem with fptp is that electorate know exactly how it works and don't have the long term vision and commitment to get a "better" party into a position of power. The Greens were able to make a little headway but not enough folk vote for them because.... not enough folk vote for them. Polls regularly show that they'd pick up a lot more votes if they stood a realistic chance of picking up more seats.
Ignoring their politics, the SNP have succeeded because they managed to harness some of that long term vision and a PR system in Holyrood helped (as did the demise of the Tories and the Toryisation of the Labour Party.)
It would be interesting to research opinions on ftpt relative to which constituency you live in and who you voted for or what your political leanings are (of course 2 different things under ftpt as so many people vote tactically.) i wonder if it is easier to appreciate ftpt when you live in a constituency where your vote got your favourite mp in, or at least was a close run race.
I live in a constituency so 'safe' that a gibbon would get in as long as it wore the right colour rosette. No one from the incumbent party bothers campaigning locally as they just don't need to. Many vote for the next biggest polling candidate (in our case lib dem) because they see it as a very slim chance of getting the incumbent mp/party out not because they want a lib dem government. When you live in a safe seat and your voting and interests happen not to be those of the incumbent mp, and your mp or even his PA replies to correspondence with cut and pasted party press releases and internal memos, it is very hard to feel like your vote counts, that your local mp represents the local interests of his constituents (well, only the constituents that want what the party wants) or indeed that we live in a democracy.
We do live in a democracy, but it's not a very effective one. FPTP is not great, but the biggest problem is that the electorate don't live up to their side of the deal. For democracy to work, the electorate have to actually put some effort into understanding the issues and the process. Most people don't.
I agree with this - we the electorate get the politicians we deserve. e.g. if we reject Miliband because he looks like Wallace and doesn't do public speaking too well, and looks odd in photos, then frankly we deserve shallow, PR-minded politicians. If we reject him because we don't agree with his policies then fair enough, but right now that's not the reason people give for not wanting to vote for him.
The main challenge now is where do you go to understand the issues properly - party manifestos are just advertising, not facts, mainstream press (broadsheets and tabloids) are just mouthpieces for their proprietors and utterly biased. Just looking at the language used about house prices rising and falling shows you how manipulative they are.
Tbh I find I learn more from reading the comments sections of news stories than the stories themselves, you get a real feel for how biased the reporting is.
Combining that with my own research for hard stats and data seems to be the only way to get a perspective on anything but that takes up a lot of time, which few people have...
As it happens, STW is a good place to get an idea of all the different perspectives too, even if some of them are mistaken... 🙂
Anything can happen. I didn't forsee the Lib/Lab/Tory coalition forming to run East Dunbartonshire and keep out the SNP who got something like 10 out of 24 seats.
There is some truth in the saying that Labour and Tories are two cheeks of the same arse.
SNP have succeeded because they managed to harness some of that long term vision and a PR system in Holyrood helped (as did the demise of the Tories and the Toryisation of the Labour Party.)
Indeed. One of the biggest political prediction fails must be George Robertson's
"Devolution will kill Nationalism stone dead"
For the first time in my life I'm not sure I'll vote.
I suspect a lot of people share the same view, which means whatever government we end up with will be a weak, partisan mess without any real mandate from the UK electorate.
Why do you think we end up with weak government that doesn't represent or feel any need to represent the people in the country?
I agree with this - we the electorate get the politicians we deserve.
True
e.g. if we reject Miliband because he looks like Wallace and doesn't do public speaking too well, and looks odd in photos, then frankly we deserve shallow, PR-minded politicians. If we reject him because we don't agree with his policies then fair enough, but right now that's not the reason people give for not wanting to vote for him.
Untrue, polls indicate that it is his (?) economic policies (sic) that are the main problem.
There is still plenty of information to make correct judgements on, it just that people can't be arsed. Look at yS as the prime example (remember 600+ pages of fairy tales and AS attempts to close down any debate with the 3Bs?) closely followed by UKIP. Immigration is a mildly positive sideshow and yet UKIP are rising on the basis of lies and deceit just like yS did last year. Income inequality ditto...People will be talking about austerity next!!!
But that's democracy for you - remember the words of Winston Churchill
What we could do with is a complete electoral stalemate, where no-one has any authority to do anything at all. Seemed to work in Belgium.
In reality, both parties aren't there to serve the electorate. They're there to do the bidding of their corporate paymasters. And they'll pretty soon tell them to sort their act out and continue their privatising, dismantling of the welfare state agenda. So once you dispense with the rhetoric, and look at what they do, rather than what they say, a labour/conservative coalition is the logical conclusion of our present political system
Be intresting to see which Mps stand down for allegeded family reasons,fall off boats,mysteriously have an accident,some who are told to resign or just resign.
all due to possible child abuse or grooming activities in the past.Should be an intresting fight as the dirty tricks departments reopen the black book of evidence to get weak or poorly performing mps to go.
There will be some great ironical statements over the next few months. The Prince of Darkeness kicked off last month with
Peter Mandelson has warned Labour’s shadow cabinet to be more [b]honest[/b] with the public and spell out the scale of cuts that would have to be imposed if the party wins the general election in May.
A powerful steam iron there! And then CMD combines deficit reduction with tax cuts even though he knows this cannot happen. Bullshit bingo has never been easier.
Fun (!?!) to imagine the shape of a cabinet based on a national government - a lot of peoples' futures would hinge on the actual vote assuming that the leader if the party with the most votes becomes PM. Bad news for either Osbourne or Balls in that case....where's lawro for some predictions?
Untrue, polls indicate that it is his (?) economic policies (sic) that are the main problem.
I stand corrected - my view is based on general impression from when he gets mentioned in the news rather than poll data. I don't like him or agree with his policies but still despair at how often the focus is on his image rather than his policies - I suspect these aspects are easier news stories to write...
Why do you think we end up with weak government that doesn't represent or feel any need to represent the people in the country?
Totally agree. But how can you vote Labour after their refusal to admit the mistakes they made pre-crisis and the Tories (supposedly safe hands with the economy) are using house price rises and more debt to disguise an economy which is struggling and that they haves few realistic plans for sorting it... (as opposed to being honest and saying that frankly things are hard and there's no short term fix
In reality, both parties aren't there to serve the electorate. They're there to do the bidding of their corporate paymasters.
Binners, I know I've aid this before but you must acknowledge that those two things do overlap to an extent.
Why must he acknowledge that you either serve your corporate paymasters or the electorate
Whilst serving one may sometimes help the other out its merely accidental as they are still only serving one master.
I am not saying I agree or disagree with what he said but I disagree with what you said
I don't dispute that Molls. But surely no-one is still under the illusion that the interests of the electorate ever take priority
Just look at what they do, as opposed to what they say. I think we can all agree that after the 2007/2008 shitstorm, pretty much unanimous agreement was reached that our banking system is completely dysfunctional, and desperately needs reforming, to prevent another meltdown. Whats happened? Well... pretty much nothing. What are the labour party proposing to do about it? Nothing!
Everyone is rightfully apoplectic about multinationals making vast profits and paying no tax. What are either of the parties going to do about it? Absolutely nothing whatsoever. Gideon likes to mention it, coming up to an election, I've noticed. But in years of government he hasn't done a bloody thing. Nor will he. And neither will Ed
Any government is caught in the same policy straight jacket for which there are no easy answers. We have barely started on the adjustments to excess leverage across the economy. So the politicians have to balance making statements that do not hold up to scrutiny with keeping Joe Public happy. Interestingly the politicians who have been or are currently the most popular spout the most BS, so if folk swallow this, who is to blame?
Binners - google banking reform and you will change your conclusion. Lots has happened to banks - the problem is that the goal of making them safer is incompatible with their role as the transmission mechanism for the main instrument of policy (QE). You cannot reconcile both at the same time. Tell me a major European bank that is generating returns above its cost if capital right now. Ditto tax reform (that you seem to crave) cannot be undertaken unilaterally, it has to be coordinated to work.
You were slightly less charitable when describing AS doing this
IMHO politicians BS because we expect them to as we want to be told we can have tax cuts, lower deficit, smaller state and better services or say leave the EU and be better off.
Clearly we cannot have all of these but we wont vote for any who tell us the truth we will vote for the ones with the most convincing or better liars.
Public get what the public deserve with politicians and we dont have grown up debates with the or with each other on stw
Looking at the € and European bond yields right now - bienvenue deflation - the whole thing could easily be overshadowed by the next "difficult" period in Europe!!!
Protest parties must be licking their lips
While we're on about unreformed, failing institutions, I think we're due the next stage of the slow-motion car crash that is the Euro. Aren't we? Delivered courtesy of a Greek default no doubt
But surely no-one is still under the illusion that the interests of the electorate ever take priority
Well yes, but the ridiculous thing is that we used to have a party that would've stuck up for the average member of the public, it was called the Labour Party. And no-one voted for it, despite it being in their interests. So it morphed to become more like the party people were voting for to steal their votes.
I wonder what it would be like to have three official parties with a number of core policies that aren't allowed to change - so there's always an offering, and they can attract or lose votes as public opinion changes..
I wonder how many years you need to predict this and it not happen before either of you reconsider?
binners - Member
While we're on about unreformed, failing institutions, I think we're due the next stage of the slow-motion car crash that is the Euro. Aren't we?
Undoubtedly - you can never buck the laws of basic economics in the long run. Europe looks awful again, not that should surprise anyone. Good old basics of currencies again.
How much pain, unemployment, destruction of wages, social unrest will need to happen before people will reconsider. Amazing that LWers are prepared to watch people suffer so much simply to protect political vanity.
Watch for a botched version of QE in Europe in 1Q15 coming up - Dragi is in trouble with the rabbit already out of the hat.
There is much to criticise in the EU but "political vanity" [ and blaming LWers for the EU /Euro zone with a crudely drawn inaccurate caricature of their indifference ] seems an, intellectually, weak and somewhat trivial place to start.
Given binners is left wing and shares your view it also somewhat ninnacurate
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Left wingers supporting the EU in its present state, absolutely baffles me too THM. The man presently at the helm of the (totally undemocratic) European Comission was the prime minister of Luxembourg when it established itself as the worlds premier destination for Tax avoidance. So I think we can assume that's he's not exactly on the side of the workers.
And the present EU/US. Trade agreement, which will pave the way for multinationals to force governments to privatise public services is unquestioningly supported by the labour party in this country, as well as the Tories. 2 cheeks of the same arse indeed.
Edit: yunki - what on earth do you google to find that?!! 😯
I agree with this - we the electorate get the politicians we deserve. e.g. if we reject Miliband because he looks like Wallace and doesn't do public speaking too well, and looks odd in photos, then frankly we deserve shallow, PR-minded politicians. If we reject him because we don't agree with his policies then fair enough, but right now that's not the reason people give for not wanting to vote for him.
As soon as he lays out his policies clearly I'll happily judge him on them. Until then I'll base my opinions on what I have, i.e. he is a clueless f***wit supported by a bunch of self serving parasites who will stab him in the back as soon as he becomes too much of an embarrassment. Not unlike his opposite number.
I find it genuinely depressing that there is no mainstream party I can vote for. I'm thinking Green although in St. Helens (aka Racoon City) any vote that's not for the waste of space Labour drone David Watts is a wasted vote.
I've met Ed and don't like him. I'd certainly not trust him to lead a political party, let alone a country. I've not met Dave, so can't comment but, based on his current track record, I'm not sure I'd trust him either. Come to think of it, I'm not sure that I would trust any of them.
What we need is a form of jury service for politicians. chosen at random(*) from the population of the electoral wards for a fixed term, then chosen again with the incumbents prevented from being eligible. Those serving are housed in provided accommodation, paid a decent salary and supported by a trustworthy and fully independent civil service.
Sadly, whilst this would make an excellent science fiction novella, this is never likely to happen in real life.
As soon as he lays out his policies clearly I'll happily judge him on them.
The opposition can never lay out its policies as the good ones will be stolen by the incumbent govt and the bads ones used to beat them to death. No opposition is any different. Its the art of saying nothing and selling dreams. Quite often they win simply because they are not the govt.
I'm thinking Green although in St. Helens (aka Racoon City) any vote that's not for the waste of space Labour drone David Watts is a wasted vote.
there's a gazillion people in the country thinking along similar lines which is mental..
If everyone that wanted to vote Green just did so, we would have a Green government, which is the only sensible solution
If only Yunki if only
A "National Government"
Can only mean one thing.
It's WAR.
sorry binners, I just googled Farage selfie 😉
While we're on about unreformed, failing institutions, I think we're due the next stage of the slow-motion car crash that is the Euro. Aren't we? Delivered courtesy of a Greek default no doubt
January the 25th - I believe
I've met Ed and don't like him. I'd certainly not trust him to lead a political party, let alone a country.
Why would you expect a career politician to be any good at running anything?
somewhat amazingly he has also lectured at harvard [ or one of the ivy league ones I forget which]so he has not always been a politician
somewhat amazingly he has also lectured at harvard [ or one of the ivy league ones I forget which]so he has not always been a politician
So at least he has experience of a real world job. 🙂
Totally agree. But how can you vote Labour....
Because last time I voted for the Lib Dems to keep the Tories out but ended up doing the opposite.
Because if I vote for the Tories I'm basically voting myself out of a job after already having my future security stolen.
Because if I vote UKIP I'm a f*****g idiot who can't see the thinly disguised con job Farage and is legion of goons are pulling.
Because if I vote Green around here I may as well vote for the Tories unfortunately.
As much as I'm no huge fan of Labour atm I personally see them as the only way to stand a chance of protecting my future. I'm sure they'll have to continue to cut but at least they won't do it with a huge grin on their face whilst laughing at those they throw on the scrap heap.
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binners - Member
Left wingers supporting the EU in its present state, absolutely baffles me too THM.
Dear comrades, let us introduce you to a systems that will result in you losing your jobs or taking 25% pay cuts. You know it makes sense.....
I am not a fan of coalitions but have been surprised that the current one has done an ok job despite not tackling the real issues - perhaps in the ST, because of that. Given that they have very few real policy options, it could be an interesting experiment to have a peacetime national government, not least because it would show how little we need governments at all. And the horse trading would be brilliant to watch.
you say that as if democracy is always a constant and always a good thing, there are many levels of democracy. If we live in a poor democratic system, it needs changing.molgrips - Member
voting for a least worst available set of self serving **** is a shit system.
It is, yes. Still democratic though.
you say that as if democracy is always a constant and always a good thing,
Nono, my point is the opposite. People use the word "democtratic" to mean fair, honest, open, good, just etc like some kind of ideal. It's not those things at all, it's neutral. A democracy can be a good one or a bad one.
Ditto, meritocracy