A level class sizes

My son/daughter's classes were 15-25. A class of 10 isn't sustainable, nor is it great for student experience.

Why do say its not good for student experience out of interest? Exact opposite of what my daughter is thinking, she's engaged in the smaller class and loves the degree of student / teacher discussion and interaction. She fears that won't happen (she isn't the most confident) in the larger class. I remember my lessons (it was a sixth form colleage rather than a school with a 6th form) being more tutorial in nature rather than formal writing on the board kind of stuff. Would have thought that gave much better prep for university than a room of 20+?

OBS depends on the school and subject but I would have thought 15-25 would be very normal.

Would have thought that gave much better prep for university than a room of 20+?

I'm not sure the schools try and prepare the kids for university in any way TBH.
They've got enough to do without that.

So I went through A levels a long time ago, in the late 90's in a College (not school) we had 20-30 in a class, about 3/4 of time was lecture style and about 1/4 problem classes. If the class of 2 are doing a niche subject that noone else chose to do but your daughter's class are being consolidated into an existing class doing the same subject then you're not comparing apples with apples.

At Uni it is going to depend on the subject but for STEM you & she can expect 200+ students in first year lectures, and problem classes / lab / computing in groups of 30+ but with demonstrators to assist the lecturers. Some subjects will still have smaller tutorial groups or collegiate unis will have smaller tutorial groups. And in later years some modules will have around 20 students, but any smaller than that and uni's won't run the module. Honestly having a group of 22 is perfectly reasonable. Maybe it's the change in teaching style by moving in each class that is most disruptive, but I don't think class size is an issue.

6 students in a class isn't great - yes for attention, but if that's her group, what if you don't get on with that 6. PS I work in a Uni, and small group sizes don't give great experience to students.

At the sixth form college I worked at, any class below 20 was considered uneconomic unless for safety reasons e.g. labs or workshops. And that was 10 years ago. The Senior management team had data that suggested class size was not a main factor in achievement, but for some individuals I am sure it made a difference. Too small a class can cause problems as well

Lucky you.

My son is self teaching one Advanced Higher (A level ish equivalent) as there is no teacher and theres a few classes with one teacher - in another school being beamed into multiple classrooms.....

Thanks all, bit surprised to hear that numbers are typically so high for A levels but I had only my sample of one to go on! Guess I was lucky in my day. I'm similar to my daughter in that the smaller groups were easier for me to deal with and actually feel engaged (wasn't an overly confident teenager either!) in the lessons.

We had a real mix at Uni with large lectures coupled with tutor based sessions of 4-5.

Not sure how long ago your day was, but consider that it is now a requirement to be in full time education until the age of 18 classes are like to be bigger.

So I went through A levels a long time ago, in the late 90’s in a College (not school) we had 20-30 in a class,

Similar-ish here - late 90s, maybe 15-20 people in my classes for music and French, probably double that for maths and physics.

Think my lad had classes from 12-25. They were probably similar size classes to when I was in 6th form, to be honest

I work in the sector. A class size of 18 is pretty much the break even point and yes, there is data that suggests lategrr class sizes do better (in value added terms) and have better student feedback... But I can't find it to post a link.

I think the changing teacher bit is more significant than the class size, teacher-studemt relationships are the driver of student performance and changing teachers obviously resets this.

Won’t part of the size difference compared to your schooling be down to staying on for education post 16 wasn’t mandatory back in the day?

Also a factor in where you do sixth form - my lad went to a specialist 6th form college with 1000+ students from a huge geographical area, some of his friends stayed on at the local school which has 200 students.

Daughter has just done A levels, and for us was subject dependant. The English class was 20+, the Media was about 15, and the Drama and Performance BTec - a bit of an oddity because there were some merged modules so they did some stuff with the kids that were doing 2x or 3x BTec, other parts were smaller. And of course for some of the practical element, you need a smaller group (they had to devise and stage a short 20-30 minute piece and if too many of them then you don't allow all to play a proper role, etc.)

Our opinion - yes, teacher relationship is important but my daughter found the class relationship as important, may have been type of subjects but they did a lot outside of class working in groups and she found that learning and sharing with them was just as important as what they learned off blackboards and ppts. She didn't really gel with her media tutor in fact but did with the class, and ended up getting top grade nonetheless.

That in fact to my daughter was the great thing; she went from a small school where she was (no brag, just fact) just about the highest academic achiever there, to a class in a big, renowned, dedicated 6FC where she was still at the top end but had other high ability kids around that she could learn from by listening and challenging / having her own opinions challenged. She's actually back from Uni this weekend and she says that preparation to be an independent learner was the most important part of her 6FC education now. So don't over-emphasise the share of teacher time against the peer learning from a 'large' class.

I've taught A-level classes of 3-20 so it depends on what the school wants, note this was Scotland so no sixth form colleges. Current AH class of 4.

I've taught a level bio to class ranging from about 5-30... The higher end is a nightmare with the amount of marking needed, much prefer a smaller class but a level students are needed to keep the schools head above water.

Ive seen classes sizes grow.. not uncommon for 20+ depending on the subject and teachers

That in fact to my daughter was the great thing; she went from a small school where she was (no brag, just fact) just about the highest academic achiever there, to a class in a big, renowned, dedicated 6FC where she was still at the top end but had other high ability kids around that she could learn from by listening and challenging / having her own opinions challenged. She’s actually back from Uni this weekend and she says that preparation to be an independent learner was the most important part of her 6FC education now. So don’t over-emphasise the share of teacher time against the peer learning from a ‘large’ class.

Experience with our eldest would support this I think.

I work in a large sixth form college

We are capped at 24 per class

I have 4 a level physics groups. 2 of 24 and 2 of about 17

17 is a bit nicer for me and gives us more options in seating and practical space. But 24 is fine 22 is good

Under 12 is horrible in my experience

I’ll talk to everyone every lesson. Almost every lesson everyone will contribute. But most of the time they are doing something and I’m just there to help. But blown fuses a side I’m never rushed off my feet

I’m quite evolved with teaching and learning and the there is plenty of evidence that group size isn’t a variable in outcomes

I teach senior chem at a school here in Aus, 15 students is ideal, I've had in the low twenties and as little as 8. Too small a class doesn't work for some activities and hampers class discussion I find. You need enough so that students can work in groups not involving students they don't see eye to eye with. I am teaching an academic subject though with students who have chosen to do it and are the more academic students in the school, it might be different in other subbjects.

20 people in a class is quite typical for A levels based on experience, and it should be taken as learning experience for the next level of education.

Someone's in for a shock if they decide to progress to University, where it could be 50-100 people in a lecture.

Christ, i was at school 6th form in the early 90's and our classes were almost all approaching 30 students, well, to start with. Once the dropouts started after xmas they got more manageable.

Another point. NWS situations like Matt OAA's, and not denigrating the job teachers do at all levels and ages, but at A level you'd generally expect the subject to be taught by a subject specialist with an interest and love for the subject they teach. In my daughter's case, they were generally more than happy to discuss the subject outside of timetabled hours with kids that wanted to dig a bit deeper; I know teachers are under time pressure but everyone likes to find time to talk to people about things that interest us and this didn't seem to be any different. So even if they are in a larger class and don't get the close attention a small class would bring, doesn't mean they can't seek out further attention and help which -> in our experience <- was happily given.

You've also got to work out what's economically sound for a college to run a cohort/class. It's got to be a fair bit higher than a Uni. given the lower fee per student.

When I sat A level Physics (along time ago), our class size was only 8. And no teacher since he was off sick for 18 months. We had the other A level class teacher come and parachute work into the room on occasion. Seemed to have worked since six of us got A's. Must be subject dependent, surely?

Someone’s in for a shock if they decide to progress to University, where it could be 50-100 people in a lecture.

That few? Our Physics year was 185.

I taught a class of 4 in a 6th form college, hard work because you had to fill in all the points that a bigger class may have raised. Bigger was better but the essay marking starts knocking out your weekends unless you in at unholy hours.

My A Level classes last year were a mix - it depends a lot on the subject. It was 30 for maths, 12 for computer science and 6 in French. Obviously the less people there were the greater the help available. This became useful for NEA work.

This government has defunded A levels... no where in the state system is a class of 6 or 8 kids possible without cross subsidy from other subjects and/or from money that's supposed to be spent on teaching to other qualifications, such as GCSEs or BTECs. It's why a lot of schools with a small cohort at post 16 have just had to give up on provision past GCSE... or further lower their spend on GCSE kids. And that BTEC funding dries up in a few years time as well.

Colleges and sixth forms have seen the largest falls in per-pupil funding of any sector over the past decade. Funding per student aged 16–18 fell by over 11% in real terms between 2010–11 and 2020–21 in further education and sixth-form colleges, and by over 25% in school sixth forms.

[ IFS : Further education and sixth form spending in England ]

[ feweek.co.uk : summary for a quicker read ]

Someone’s in for a shock if they decide to progress to University, where it could be 50-100 people in a lecture.

I was going to say this. How does a class of 8 set you up for a typical 101 class where you have to turn up under your own steam, listen and make your own notes etc?

Lectures aren't the same as lessons (or seminars, or tutorials).

Lectures aren’t the same as lessons (or seminars, or tutorials).

No they aren't the point being that the entire way uni is taught is different so how does a class size affect uni?

Two degrees and I've never had a tutorial of less than 20 and had lectures up to a good few hundred.

20 people isn't a tutorial.

Thanks for the input all, she's accepted her fate and is getting on with things. Seems 20+ is quite normal but ironically she is now in a class of 9 in physics after that was disrupted to fit the merger of the other class!

You don't say what day was 'your' day.

TBF 20 people might look very like a tutorial compared to someone who's never been in a class of <30 before.

As has been covered, it would depend on a few things, but one thing we didn't have as much in 'your' day, that happens much more now, is a more 'collegiate' approach to further education. So in our area if you want to do Physics, for example, you'll do it at Walton, and that will be true for all the High Schools in that catchment. It only takes 4 students from each to make a class of 20.

Blessed Bills will not teach 4 students A level Physics for 2 years.