[Closed] A cowboy plumber breaks into your property and illegally connects a waste pipe.

Shoes, wee therein.

Bombers, own thereof.

And be in awe of the McMoonter, obviously!

offer to let them use the waste pipe seeing as you are not using it but demand they do adequate repairs to the  unused place in your absence /look after it as  recompense?

I suspect your chances of a prosecution are low

Owner: I hired a plumber

Who- Dont know got his number from a friend he called round and i told him what i wanted. I  paid cash and have never seen him again - he did what gosh that is shocking etc

IMHO its a real waste to leave a property unoccupied for 20 years

I'm generally in awe of your work McMoonter - but owning a property and leaving it empty for 20 years is a smidgen out of order surely?

[edit]Ninja'd by junkyard[/edit]

If the property downstairs from me had been empty less than half that time I'd consider it abandoned and fair game.

My folks bought the place in the early seventies, it earned its keep for the first twenty odd years. I stayed there for a spell in the eighties. We closed the door thinking we'd do something productive with it, then other things seemed to be competing for our attention.

I didn't owe us a penny and that is largely why it was neglected, we would regularly receive offers to buy it, but we never acted on them. In a way we've been quite lucky as the street has morphed from a hippie hangout to somewhere a bit more upmarket. I'm not married and have no children, so my intention is to restore it for my niece who has had a lot of uncertainty in her life. It will give her some security.

Break into their flat and take a dump on their floor.

Then undo the plumbers work.

Personally, I’d take the pipe off, seal up the end and wait for the ruckus when it backs up into their living space, and serve the buggers right. But I have a pretty low tolerance for that sort of underhand behaviour.

In a way we’ve been quite lucky

Yes in a way you have been lucky to inherit a flat at zero cost and then make money by completely  ignoring it as the area becomes gentrified . That is quite the understatement.

Disconnect it and use the results to build a famous McMoonter log pile?

Is this cast iron waste a service intended to be shared by you and the flat above or should it be exclusively your waste?

Is this connection actually protruding below your ceiling or is it contained within the void between your ceiling and their floor?

I'm just trying to understand if the objection is the breaking in and making good, or fitting a visible waste connection in your ceiling.

Do what you do with any other rogue foolish enough to irk the mcmoonter. Entomb him in a giant holzhousen.

If you don't know exactly who owns the flat above, despite him having a tenant, chances are they don't know who owns yours, which makes it awkward to seek approval for reasonable works (fitting a waste is reasonable, unless they've fitted it four foot below ceiling height).

Make yourself known, ask for explanation and making good ASAP.

If they've already had the opportunity to ask, then bombers/shoes/chimney/slats etc.

Owned by a Scottish farmer from the borders?

I'll be very surprised if they do anything but ignore you. I would also check the deeds for any quirks about allowing drainage and whether there any Scots law quirks here.

Good luck

Entomb him in a giant holzhousen

Ah, now we understand the holzhousens, it's the MC version of The Patio(tm). Who else has irked him recently

Is there a covenant of some sort to use that pipe at that point?

If not, ask the contractor to remove the waste pipe ASAP and repair the damage

I always thought that breaking and entering was a serious criminal offence, non?

Leaving a perfectly good home unused 20 years , I've gone off you mcmooter.

Is it me or is everyone missing the point that the **** broke in first and foremost. Regardless of what he did once in there he wants a slap for that.

Same as Countzero, I ll remove the pipe and block it.

Doesn't matter if property is empty, it is yours and they should not be allowed to enter.

From the perspective of the flat owner / trades person: How easy would it have been to track you down to ask for permission? Is it a case of no-one's visited the property for 20 years, it's still in your parents name / old address (who may have moved / changed number / unfortunately passed on etc)

Or did they have your details and just not bother?

Remove the pipe and block it...a rather foolish plan unless you fancy water damage when their bathroom floods and comes through your ceiling!

Give 14days unotice to the property above that.

they can by arrangement they can remove their unauthorised connections and make good the damage from the forced entry

or

you will report the break in, seek quotes to get the work done. Then undertake the works blocking off the services make good and recover the costs by taking action against then.

i assume your insured? Is so I’d discuss this with them before proceeding

Best bet is talk to the owner upstairs  1st!

This was the before picture. You can see the waste pipe coming from the shower tray through what they had removed of our ceiling, through what was a stud wall and into the previously unused access to the cast iron waste pipe  I didn't take a picture of the improved version

EDIT hopefully the pic will be viewable in the link

There is a communal stair record of all the owners so finding us shouldn't have been difficult.

Ive been doing work sporadically on the space on the space over the last few months. I'm relieved my generator wasn't stolen. I'll need to retrieve it today

They should be able to service their waste pipe from their property. Breaking in is totally unacceptable

Junkyard, it's not a turnkey gift. It's going to be an epic restoration. I've already taken out two floors, basically it's a shell now. Estimates so far from contractors have been over £100k to make it habitable. I'm optimistic I can do it for a lot less.

This place gets better all the time. Someone forces entry, does a botch job and Mcmoonter is the bad guy??

I’d  not block it up, as stated above, any flooding upstairs will only impact you worse than you already are.

Missile strike to the flat above...should be easy to get it authorized

Surely being STW the response should be to fit a wood burner and put the flue up through the ceiling without asking permission

This place gets better all the time. Someone forces entry, does a botch job and Mcmoonter is the bad guy??

To be fair, he was damned from the moment he referred to it as a "property".

To be fair, he was damned from the moment he referred to it as a “property”.

True. Burn him. 

Update.

I’ve spoken to the tenant and he has given me the letting agent’s number. The tenant said that there had been a problem with his shower and it was the plumber contracted by the agent who did the work/break in.

I had a peek under the pasteboard the plumber had fitted. There was no fire insulation between the floor to ceiling gap. I’m guessing that contravenes building regs

The agent’s office is closed now. I’ll be ringing them first thing on Monday

Apologies for using the word ‘property’, I’ll use hoose in future

I don't think I'd give them much option. They've instructed a plumber to do he's broken in.

Phone police on 101 and get an incident number.  That way you have a bit more leverage on the agent.

Police. In England the offence of burglary has been committed.

Entered a building as a trespasser, committed unlawful damage

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burglary_in_English_law

Not sure about Scottish Law tho..

I would have contacted the police

I would go for 101 and report. The plumber has essentially broken in, he'll do it again.

Then letter before action to the letting agent/landlord detailing what you want and or it's off to court

In Scots law the equivalent of burglary is housebreaking. That won't apply as it requires an intent to steal.

Then there is vandalism. A statutory crime where property belonging to someone else is damaged without lawful authority or reasonable excuse.

So it would come down to whether first the police and then the PF thought forcing entry was reasonable in the circumstances and if not whether a prosecution was in the public interest.

Ignore the ridiculousness of some people on the thread McMoonter.  It’s easy with 20/20 hindsight to critiscise someone else’s decisions.

Finding 100k to renovate a property is not easy - and using the property rental to fund it’s own renovation costs must be very hard if the property is not particularly rentable in its current state.

I agree it’s out of order and think you are taking a good approach.  If they wanted to address a leak or drainage they should have gone through their own floor.  As for damaging a window and not making good - shoddy indeed and they obviously did that because they thought they could get away with it.  Arses!

Thanks for the advice and quips folks. I've talked this through with my folks, both in their late 70's, and they agree that phoning 101, getting a crime reference number, then calling the letting agent is the way to go. The agent appointed the plumber, there is a paper trail. If I were the landlord, I'd be horrified that those acting on my behalf would act so irresponsibly with no regard for the law. If I had been the perpetrator, I'd expect nothing less.

I will suggest to the landlord that he can have access to remove the waste pipe and make good his own space which would be easier now than when I start my renovation in earnest.

I thought that if there was a leak which had the potential to do damage that access could be made into another persons house without their permission. There is a process for this but I thought that the police needed to be in attendance... Well otherwise you could just break in take what you wanted splash some water around the place and call it good...

Christ, the levels of jealousy on here by some people speaks volumes..

"I thought that if there was a leak which had the potential to do damage that access could be made into another persons house without their permission. There is a process for this but I thought that the police needed to be in attendance…"

Sounds about right. The way it works, or used to when I was doing it a good few years back in Glasgow was that if there was a burst pipe from say a top flat and the council or private landlord needed access was ....

1. Contact police who would confirm that all reasonable attempts to contact the owner had been made, create an incident number.

2. Thereafter the police would tell the council  to get a plumber and joiner to the address then  call them back. Once the plumber was there police would attend and standby while access was gained, leak fixed, and house secured with note left for householder quoting incident number.

In a case like this where it appears a leaky shower tray was the problem I'd suggest the police advice to the occupiers/owner above would be stop using the shower and contact the ownersw of the flat below to make mutually agreeable access arrangements.

Yes in a way you have been lucky to inherit a flat at zero cost and then make money by completely  ignoring it as the area becomes gentrified . That is quite the understatement.

“Excuse me, Sir, is that saucer of milk to go?”

Christ, the levels of jealousy on here by some people speaks volumes..

You got the right thread? All I see here is a manky, derelict old flat needing £100k worth of work done. It's a bit of a waste though when someone could have been getting use out of it all that time.

You got the right thread? All I see here is a manky, derelict old flat needing £100k worth of work done. It’s a bit of a waste though when someone could have been getting use out of it all that time.

Yeah, I have. And I stand by what I said..

i can’t see the issue with that, if they’re lucky enough to have that flat, it’s up to them what they do with it..

Yes, someone could’ve been getting the use, but they weren’t, and?

I can’t see the issue.

Does that logic apply to anything you have lying around....such as a book you have already paid for but are not currently using...

I'm sure some land lords would be happy to rent out a hovel..... I'm sure folks would actually pay to rent it even sans floors in that London.

But Mcmoonters a busy guy these things take time.

Or do you fire sale all your assets rather than repair when they get worn out ?

ignore the ridiculousness of some people on the thread McMoonter.

It won’t be ignored. There will just be more holzhousen.

In Scots law the equivalent of burglary is housebreaking. That won’t apply as it requires an intent to steal

So in Scotland you're free to go and hang out in other people's houses when they're not there? Even if you don't know them or have their permission? What an incredibly hospitable country!! 🙂

So in Scotland you’re free to go and hang out in other people’s houses when they’re not there? Even if you don’t know them or have their permission? What an incredibly hospitable country!!

years ago it used to be called a new years day party.

Yes, someone could’ve been getting the use, but they weren’t, and?

and it's a bit of a waste, like I said.

I can’t see the issue.

and?

Does that logic apply to anything you have lying around….such as a book you have already paid for but are not currently using…

Anything left to neglect for 20 years that someone else could have got use out of, yes.

I’m sure some land lords would be happy to rent out a hovel….. I’m sure folks would actually pay to rent it even sans floors in that London.

I'm sure it would have been in a non-hovel state if it had been looked after and occupied for the previous 20 years.

Or do you fire sale all your assets rather than repair when they get worn out ?

I don't generally keep things I don't use for that length of time, especially when someone else could get use out of it.

Is Mcmoonter still on the run?

I think you are taking the correct route with the crime number as it helps with leverage on the agent / owner. (I feel sorry for anyone who has to deal with a lettings agent).

I do however have sympathy with whomever instructed the work. The work may have needed doing quickly, and although you consider it easy obvious to find out the owners / your details to ask permission the person instructing the works may not. Such is common sense, it is not that common.as for the standard of work, it may be a get a get it fixed and make it good late when /if required. I am sure it will all be sorted once the owner is awear you are renovating the flat.

One man's 'manky, derelict flat', will in time be habitable again. If ever I needed a carrot, that's it right there in black and white.

While I get the moral criticism of leaving a building vacant for a long time, it did need work when we closed the door back then and we simply had too many other projects and issues competing for our attention. The only modernisation since the building was constructed in the early 1800s was the addition of a water closet in the 1890s and a stainless steel sink in the 1980s

In retrospect our inaction and our determination to hang on to it has seen its value increase by more than its rental could have generated. As I said earlier, once completed it should provide some security for my niece.

It's your flat you can leave it empty for ever, it's your choice, but that's some funny logic!  The rental generated would be in addition to the increase in value!

Update update

i called 101, the Police were helpful. We discussed the protocol for their attendance of an emergency entry to staunch a leak. They had no record of a phone call being made to them. So the contractor or it’s agent made the decision to gain access without going through to proper channels

The call handler said it would be a civil issue and that I would need to contact my lawyer to follow it up with the plumber, letting agent and landlord

I was given a reference number, not an incident number

I then called the letting agency, they put me through to their maintenance dept, who quite honestly sounded non plussed, but said they would investigate what had happened

I gave them the Police reference number. I asked for the landlord’s details, they said they would forward them.

I have another contact who should be able to supply me with the landlord’s details which I’m about to follow up. I think the direct approach will be more efficient. The agent will already be in cover up mode. I wouldn’t want an agent representing me who would act in such a manner

Any advice based on the above would be welcome

As of the close of business today, I've heard nothing back from the agent.

I only have the name of the landlord which I got from the landlord register with Edinburgh Council.  I understood he was a farmer in the Borders, the only one I found on Google had sold a farm in 2016 and their telephone number is not recognised

Think I'd be putting it in writing/formally to the agency if you haven't already.  They'll be the ones that instructed the work, aren't they?  Be clear about the resolution you require, and a timetable for completing it.  I can't see that they have any wriggle room at all (but Edinburgh agent...)

Who was it that said the simplest explanation is usually the right one?

It does seem likely that whoever did the work, however carelessly and poorly, didn’t expect they were treading on anyone’s toes, perhaps “getting that plumbing done for the nice flat, we’ll just pop into that derelict property below - we haven’t seen anyone there in years and it’s always been a pain”. I dunno. But you dunno either. Maybe landlord knows nothing of these details. Might be a nice bloke. Assume good intentions and innocence first, and see how you get on.

I think at this point I would be getting in a contractor (chosen by you) to give you a quote for making good - including pipework, window, plastering etc.  Which will also "officially" document the damage done.

At least that way you will be able to tell then what it is (ie: amount of cash) that you expect in compensation.

The agent will want to send their (original) contractor around to do the works at no cost to them, but there is no way I wold be allowing that.

Also, the quote(s) from reputable firms will for the basis of any small-claims type proceedings that you may have to initiate to motivate the various parties.

I do think it's possible to do all this without being a dick about it - as others have said above, it's likely the owner didn't know anything about it.

I'm not sure how the police can get away with calling it a civil matter, if damage has been caused both entering the flat and to the ceiling once they got there.

Capping off the offending new pipework would probably elicit a swifter response. I may have missed something, but is the flat above occupied?

I agree with twicewithchips and batfink.

If you cap off the waste outlet, you're likely to have further damage when the shower tray or whatever overflows.

I'd be tempted to go and speak to the tenant of the upstairs flat and see if you can have a look at the cause. I'll wager a plinth was needed for a  previous shower tray waste and they changed the tray without the plinth! So they decided to steal some of your flat to accommodate the waste pipe.

cheeky beggars.

Mmmm 2016 . The farm wasn't near Bonchester bridge was it?

Oh an DC 100th says that it's not a civil matter it's a break in and damage. Laws have been broken . Might not be high priority but not civil matter.

Letter to agent by registered post.

State your your current attempts to gain information from them and their failure. State your requirements and expectations of timeline. State the consequence of failure ( maybe instructing a solicitor small claims court or Scottish equivalent ). Leave multi forms of contact available, if possible not your home address but it depends on how you feel about this.

Talk to the tennant above you, explain why your upset and make sure they have you contact information for future use.

Pay your own contractor to make good the damage whilst keeping the shower above working.

Write to the letting agent enclosing bill for making good the damage and re-securing property. Ask for the details of the plumber to pass on to the police for breaking and entering.

Innocent tenant gets what they want, you get a proper job done, karma restored. If you get repaid for the damage, that's a bonus, likewise the police having a word with the plumber.

Build more holzhausen.

Pay your own contractor to make good the damage whilst keeping the shower above working

^ nope, I wouldn't be doing that.  Particularly as you're in no hurry to get the work done.  Not only are you then out of pocket, but you also lose the only leverage you have, which is: "either you pay to make good, or I will be removing all the offending pipework".

As I said, no need to be a dick about it, but there is also no need to be a chump.

Thanks for the advice above folks. I've got to dash  out the door now, but a neighbour just forwarded me what she hopes is the landlord's email address. I doubt that he knows anything of what has happened other than being issued with an invoice from the letting agent for the 'repair'.

I will write to both the letting agent and the landlord when I get back in.

Yesterday I went to Register House to get a copy of the deeds to check on any right they had of access to the pipe. There is nothing I could see that said they had.

The very helpful lady there with her specs on a chain gasped when read the purchase price back in 1976 for our four roomed flat in Sockbridge as £850

I may be missing something, but if the shower drain was leaking, isn't breaking into the property below (if that's the way to resolve it) the right thing to do if no contact can be made with the owner? Obviously the damage/long term solution should be rectified as well (which doesn't appear to have happened), but minimizing the impact of the leak seems like a sensible thing to do..

I've written a civil email to the landlord, detailing how we found the break in, communications with the Police and his letting agent (who I still heard nothing back from) along with photographs.

I have asked that he simply take the opportunity to make good the damage caused while our space is vacant before we have to resort to legal action and all the hassle and needless expense that will bring.

I pondered today how house prices have escalated. My folks bought the space in 1976 for £850. In 1982, my first year at Art College, my annual grant was £400, I was expected to find accommodation, feed and clothe myself, buy materials and travel on £400 for an academic year.  In 1985 I bought my first mountainbike. It cost just shy of £400 with my staff discount and some accessories from Robin Williamson Cycles. My fiscal outlook is still based on those numbers.

Update, Update Update

Fifteen minutes after sending my email to the landlord he called me back. He was apologetic and extremely anxious that he get things sorted. We have a meeting  planned for Thursday  morning.

That’s good news, McMoonter.

Letting agents really are shisters. When we moved out of our last place the agent tried to sting us for all sorts of stuff. The a day after I replied challenging the obvious lies and saying I’d dig out the 100+ photos we too upon arrival to check the less clear stuff, I got a follow up email saying they weren’t going to charge for anything.

Simply, she’d just tried to defraud me and the most basic challenge made it go away. I’d bet a lot of money the landlord was unaware of any of it. It just seems to be the MO of letting agents. Even the estate agent who sold us our own home was sympathetic, and he works with letting agents!

Good news the owner of the property seems willing to discuss resolving the issue.

Stockbridge is a lovely part of Edinburgh my wee sister has a flat down there - nightmare to get parked where she is but the park near by and the water of Leith are brilliant for taking my daughter for a wander when we go to visit.

I lived in Stockbridge when it was still a bit of a slum - well before all the antique shops etc. We had a great childhood.

I pondered today how house prices have escalated. My folks bought the space in 1976 for £850. In 1982, my first year at Art College, my annual grant was £400, I was expected to find accommodation, feed and clothe myself, buy materials and travel on £400 for an academic year.  In 1985 I bought my first mountainbike. It cost just shy of £400 with my staff discount and some accessories from Robin Williamson Cycles.

This is amazing. It really shows how much things have changed!!

Building control might be worth a shout, that's illegal building work contravening a few laws/regulations. If it's a proper contractor been appointed then there are issues under CDM and you might find that the local authority might want to help you. Call building standards and see what they say.

Good luck sorting it out!

 In 1982, my first year at Art College, my annual grant was £400

That wasn't a full grant though was it? (iirc).  Was full grant (remember that kids 🙂 ) not about 3x that in '82?  I think my Saracen Conquest was about 500squids from Rob's a few years later

My flat in Newington was £72k in 2000
Worth ~£200k now

Name and shame the letting agent.

Leffeboy, you are right. My memory is fading. It was £400 per term, so £1200 an academic year.

I had a meeting with the landlord and my architect this morning. The latter is going to draw up a strategy which should help us both

The landlord was a really nice guy, I think we can work efficiently together

My architect confirmed that the letting agent is renowned for being amongst the worst in Edinburgh for this type of action

Still no explanation, apology or promise to make good their handiwork

Anyone considering using D J Alexander as a letting agent would be well advised to seek another elsewhere

Letting agents really are shisters.

They are indeed the worst of all agents, and that's saying something.

McMoonter wrote.

"In 1985 I bought my first mountainbike. It cost just shy of £400 with my staff discount and some accessories from Robin Williamson Cycles."

I bought my first MTB from there around the same time. A red Specialized Rockhopper. There was a weekly outing up the Pentlands and other ventures further afield at the weekend. I used to meet up with Robin's younger brother for the weekend ride-outs (can't remember his name) Another regular face had a wee bike shop down in Newhaven. #Flashbacks

D.

I'd always heard Grant Management were the worst, but that's not a particularly exclusive title

I bought my first MTB from there around the same time. A red Specialized Rockhopper

Checks photos...