[Closed] A coppers lot.

So who will be the first Robocop for [s]OCP[/s] G4S?

I do not beleive that anybody's life should be shortened due to the work they do, sad fact is though in 'modern' britain, the small gains that workers made after the war through to the 1970's have been eroded.

there are still some people who blame the trade unions---truth is british economy has been in decline for a long time, short term vision/policies.

The more advanced economies put a premium on skill,this country just abuses it-- the income differentials are still rising, the strains on social relations are there for all to see-- the police are an organ of the state, their job is undoubtedly getting 'worse'-- more social problems, its an endless loop-- the same faces in and out of custody.

Until we get a govt that truly puts people before profit, this is only going to get worse.IMHO- there appears no 'party' who advocates an alternative to reductionist capitalism, i live in hope, as history shows things can change very quickly

He may well have to work over 40 years to get less pension now.can you imagine two 59 year old cops turning up to a pub full of fighting drunks in Salford/ any other city on a Saturday night?

Lots of other job threads have pointed out that there are no more jobs for life. It may be that a 50+ year old policeman will be an ex-policeman and working elsewhere.

It's all part of the race to the bottom, that the government (any hue) believes in.

What we are seeing, that a lot of people seem to be willfully ignoring, is the premeditated and systematic dismantling of the state as we know it. Its main functions - Health, Education, Policing are being primed, ready to be handed lock, stock and barrel, to the Tories friends in the private sector. So they can then ruthlessly exploit essential services to benefit themselves handsomely.

And once its done, it'll be irreversible. People need to wake the **** up! And fast!

Whilst some of the anti-tory rhetoric on here is tiresome, predictable and boring; I wholeheartedly agree with this. It's being snuck through with minimal noise and it's a disgrace.
I'm absolutely stumped as to what to do about it though. I won't vote labour.

Look at the life sacrifices police officers make for a career. Even our forces sign up to 22 years. I chose the police as I did not want to be a solider.

They don't get their pension after 22 years! They have to go and get jobs.

mildred - Member

Isnt running down the national services the first step towards privatisation?? The tories love that word. If they hold onto the next election the G4S will be policing the streets/ picking up the injured / putting out fires. Bankrupt health boards / hospitals... one step towards privatisation. Just a matter of time.

100% [s]correct.[/s] misleading...

...Which you may find interesting when you consider that our Home Secretary Theresa May is a Pru shareholder.

..or that Lord (John) Reid and Lord Condon are on the board of G4S or that G4S make announcements supporting Nick Clegg, or that one of G4S most important periods of growth in the UK occurred under a Labour Government. Their tentacles are everywhere!

rudebwoy - Member
IMHO- there appears no 'party' who advocates an alternative...

Seems to be a lot closer to the mark. So if this is he case ie, not just a Tory-ideology led process (nice rhetoric, politically convenient, but factually misleading) why are no parties stopping it? Once we understand that, then serious debate can happen.

Reading this thread it seems this government (and I'm not saying the previous one was any/much better) are royally shafting public services generally and paying their chums in the private sector large amounts of money at the same time. Scandalous and in my mind criminal. I think most people seem to agree with this POV. I would hazard most in the private sector agree in principle but just say "we have already been stitched up, why shouldn't you be?" - a sad way of looking at things especially as most of the jobs where you are in danger seem to be public - police / army / ambulance / nursing / prison service etc. I'm sure there are a few private workers that face the same risks but they are probably the ones working for crap wages whilst their bosses rake in the ££'s from their political chums. And the inevitable rotten eggs in each service are the ones the media focus on 🙁 Unfortunatley there doesn't seem much any of us can do about it?
+2 for Mildred's comments!

It is a Tory ideology led process, it's just that (New?) Labour also largely follow Tory ideology now. We have no real choice.

They don't get their pension after 22 years! They have to go and get jobs.

No, but they do get it at 55, the same as Police Officers. And bear in mind that each individual service man or woman does not actually contribute any of their earnings into their pension unlike everyone else in Public service (though i believe this is right and proper due to sacrifices elsewhere).

On the topic of getting other jobs, in my experience a great many wish to continue their public service and become Police Officers. Most transfer their pensions across and are now in the sorry state that they won't get that back in the way they were sold it. Apparently that is the way to say thank you for a life of public service at the sharp end.

IMHO- there appears no 'party' who advocates an alternative...

SNP. 1000 more police officers in Scotland since 2007.

The bottom line is that private companies want to take over public services as its a gravy train. And the present government are itching to hand them the lot. The holy grail. A massive state funded private monopoly.

But when these 'employees' (or nurses, police officers, firemen etc as you may more likely know them) contracts are transferred over to them, they want minimal 'liabilities' coming with them. They only want assets. Hence the all out assault on pensions, terms and conditions, wages and employment rights.

Expect it to intensify, not get better, any time soon

I was just wondering where all the usual right wing Thatcherite suspects have gone. Very notable by their absence recently. Will no one stand up for Dave and his puppet?

I am optimistic, history repeatedly shows that is how social change comes about, we have a bankrupt political system, incapable of any progressive policies, so a downward spiral of cuts, leading to more social unrest, i wonder who will be called on by the state to 'uphold' its legitimacy.....

Last time we had open class war, the miners strike..... the then govt rewarded its guards,things seem very different now.....

I was just wondering where all the usual right wing Thatcherite suspects have gone. Very notable by their absence recently. Will no one stand up for Dave and his puppet?

I'll blow my horn--- The Hound of Gore will awake

For those interested, the military pension was changed (for the worse) in 2005. It changes again (even worse) in April 2015. What little details and examples that have been published so far makes for grim reading. A few friends I served with are now police officers and the pension pro's and con's aren't really comparable. There's quite a few differences between the schemes.

From where I stand, policing is not a glamorous job. You deal with scum and often have to bite your tongue. I'd rather be in the Green Zone of Afghanistan than the streets of Great Britain because I know I have a greater degree of freedom, ie I can kill someone, provided it can be justified.

I don't get the impression the Police have that same luxury.

I would rather the Police be given more of many things; power, funding, numbers and most importantly the protection and freedom to remove the scum from our streets and keep them off our streets.

Wow. Personally, I'm really glad that there aren't too many police officers out there with views similar to your own. And have you ever heard of the term 'policing by consent'? Thankfully, not many people in the UK want to see a fully armed police force. This is something I am grateful for, as an individual. The less guns around, the better.

We live in an imperfect society with an imperfect police force. The majority surely are well-meaning and want to make a difference in society, but as we've seen recently, with various cases of police corruption, false statements, cover-ups and even the unjustified killing of innocent people, there are far too many rotten apples in the barrel. And someone earlier made a comment of how quiet those on here who are in the police were over the Hillsborough affair; there is a growing public perception of how the police as an institution operate a code of silence when it comes to their own who transgress. This is somewhat understandable, but it does not make for positive public relations.

I note that some of you use the term 'scum' to describe certainly some of the sort of people the police have to deal with. If you have this 'them and us' mentality, then there will always be division, mistrusts, fear and hatred. And conversly, those who you consider to be 'scum' will see the police as 'scum' themselves. That we live in a society with great wealth but such searing social division is an uncomfortable truth we all have to deal with, and surely the answer lies not in consolidating and enhancing such divisions, but looking at ways boundaries and barriers can be broken down between people?

The Hillsborough affair, the death of Ian Tomlinson and the deaths of too many people in police custody show that we must have a more accountable police force, if we are to move forward as a society.

I am grateful to the OP for putting forward their side of the story. We need dialogue between all members of a society, and no group should be without an effective voice.

we have a [u][b]Morally[/b][/u] bankrupt political system

I know what you mean, but whilst I'm on my soapbox also consider that 23 out of 29 cabinet members are multi-millionaires at the most recent estimate. Indeed a recent documentary (BBC or C4 i think) suggested that 60% of Parliament are millionaires when property is taken into account.

And have you ever heard of the term 'policing by consent'? Thankfully, not many people in the UK want to see a fully armed police force. This is something I am grateful for, as an individual. The less guns around, the better.

Mike - in a recent survey 4 out of 5 police officers didn't want arming either. And the first thing GMP chief constable said after the shootings were regarding his support for policing by consent, and an outright rejection of routine arming of police, before the usual right-wing-dog-whistle calls even came

In terms of job security and pensions a few have mentioned HM Forces 22 years as a comparrison. Just to note, large sections of the RAF just get an initial 9 year contract i believe. However, in the present climate of cost savings and contracts not being extended, this is softened by a substantial payment at 8 years to stay on for the full 9.

And how many of those millionaires do you reckon will pop up on the boards of the beneficiaries of their privatisation policies. Getting paid squillions a year as non-exec directors

I predict, as soon as this lot are voted out, the following....

George Osbourne and Dave - straight onto the boards of various banks as a reward for kicking banking reform into the long grass.

Andrew Lansley - Board of whichever US healthcare provider is presently making the most out of the NHS

Theresa May - G4S. Guaranteed!!

Jeremy Hunt - Sky/News International

Gove/Pob - Board of whichever US Education provider is presently making the most out of the 'free school' Education system

You can predict the lot. Labour were equally as shameless. I can't see any of them out-doing Blair for sheer hard-faced opportunism and lining his pockets. They'll all have a good go though

Getting paid squillions a year as non-exec directors

I know what you mean, but whilst I'm on my soapbox also consider that 23 out of 29 cabinet members are multi-millionaires at the most recent estimate. Indeed a recent documentary (BBC or C4 i think) suggested that 60% of Parliament are millionaires when property is taken into account.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/oligarchy

the old aristo's were happy with some gongs and titles, the newer mob just like money and lots of it-- tis reward for services to capitalism inc, if i remember when chavez was first elected, he was quick to stop cronyism, -- i would take all their ill-gotten off them, make em live like the rest of us--- buck palace-- the worlds finest fully manned toilets........

wrecker - Member
Getting paid squillions a year as non-exec directors

I don't know how they get away with it. How can such an obvious conflict of interest be permitted?

It's strange, it's similar to the phone hacking and the pres thing. We all "knew" it went on, but it took a specific combination of events and circumstances to make it become an issue in the public consciousness, action to taken and hopefully things to change.

We all "know" this is how politics works these days - but a specific combination of events and circumstances need to take place before anything can be done. And it really,really needs to happen

Getting paid squillions a year as non-exec directors

I don't know how they get away with it. How can such an obvious conflict of interest be permitted?

It's because the poor hard up dears don't get paid enough as an MP, they need it to make ends meet.

It's because the poor hard up dears don't get paid enough as an MP, they need it to make ends meet.

Quite depressing all this, isn't it? Someone asked- what's the alternative?
I have to say- for me personally, up here in Scotland, it's independence.
I know there's a shitload of things still to be worked out, and it's not gonna be cheap. But I am sick of successive Westminster governments shafting us up here, most notably the current Tory (I mean, coalition) one. We didn't vote them in.. The south of England did - as they almost always will.
There's no way the Uk electoral system is going to be reformed (or downsized/rationalised)- turkeys don't vote for Christmas after all. So what's the alternative?
Get the hell out and try and come up with a better system.
I realise this is a bit off topic, ive already stated my admiration for the job the police continue to do in the context of ever- more difficult circumstances.. But things aren't going to get better with the next government- even if it's a labour one.

I'm a southerner but def not a tory, can i move to the utopia that will be an independant Scotlandshire? Please.

The Hillsborough affair, the death of Ian Tomlinson and the deaths of too many people in police custody show that we must have a more accountable police force, if we are to move forward as a society.

The police in the UK are actually really rather accountable. Which goes a long way in explaining why they are so superior to many other police forces throughout the world.

A good example of the British police's accountability is the huge systemic changes which occurred after the tragic case of Stephen Lawrence. Lessons were learnt and the police today is very different to the police before Stephen Lawrence's death.

Constant criticism and a willingness to respond is what has got us the police forces which we have today. But also vital is the recognition of achievements and gratitude for an exemplary service when warranted.

i think this nicely sums up the current governments attitudes to police

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chief-whip-andrew-mitchell-apologises-for-police-tirade-8162512.html ]the 56-year-old chief whip: "Best you learn your f*** place. You don't run this f Government. You're f*** plebs," after he was stopped from using the main gate. [/url]

"Policing by consent" seems to be a phrase trotted out on a regular basis. On a practical level what does it actually mean and how does British "policing by consent" actually differ from policing in other democratic countries?

[quote=althepal ]Quite depressing all this, isn't it? Someone asked- what's the alternative?
I have to say- for me personally, up here in Scotland, it's independence.
See you tomorrow?

i think this nicely sums up the current governments attitudes to police

Not being a Whitehall-ian Peeler that doffs his cap to the political classes – If he’d spoken to me in the manner that’s been alleged / reported (after a suitable warning), he would have been lifted fairly sharpish and conveyed to the station – in line with the Governments drive to tackle yobbish behaviour!

Policing by consent is a polite term for saying that the majority of people abide by most laws most of the time. It relies on a consensus that the police(vevlet glove)are better than the army(iron fist)for social control.

That is their function, to maintain social control, this breaks when those being policed no longer accept this concept, certain parts of cities will have this phenomena, it can happen in industrial disputes and certainly in civil war.

no doubt you may hear a different spin on this, but it relies on a certain degree of co-operation to be effective

deluded - Member
Not being a Whitehall-ian Peeler that doffs his cap to the political classes – If he’d spoken to me in the manner that’s been alleged / reported (after a suitable warning), he would have been lifted fairly sharpish and conveyed to the station – in line with the Governments drive to tackle yobbish behaviour!

cant believe hes still in his job, im assuming that there is cctv all over the place there and im see no reason why the copper would lie

shouldve breathalysed him before he got on his bike, you can bet he was tanked up on port as well as his own enormous sense of self worth

If he’d spoken to me in the manner that’s been alleged / reported (after a suitable warning), he would have been lifted fairly sharpish and conveyed to the station

According to the Sun that is precisely the same attitude which the officers concerned took :

[b][i]Despite his fury, the officers refused to budge and warned him that he would be arrested under the Public Order Act if he continued to abuse them.[/i][/b]

[url= http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/4549265/Andrew-Mitchell-insults-police-at-Downing-Street-by-calling-them-fing-plebs.html ]Cabinet minister: Police are plebs[/url]

That article makes very interesting reading btw. This bit :

Right-winger and keen cyclist Mr Mitchell is a former shadow police minister and was until recently International Development Secretary.

A former investment banker, he is worth at least £2.2million and owns a number of s****y homes.

He lives in one of the most fashionable squares in Islington, North London, with his GP wife Sharon and their two daughters.

He also has a house in his Sutton Coldfield constituency in Birmingham and a property in the French ski resort of Val d’Isere.

......sounds like a classic piece of socialist/leftwing envy which I would expect to read in the Morning Star. We live in strange/interesting times.

his wikipedia entry shows him to be your average tory

tax avoidance and lobbying for cash

The Government needs to get the police back on side — before another wave of strikes leaves them desperate for cops’ support.

Just a bit of Sun 'opinion' in case you thought they had strayed to the left.

 

What this thread has shown is that people still want to join the force. Despite what the media or society throws up (riots, deaths of officers, eroded terms and conditions.), the thin blue line is getting thinner, colleagues are retiring and not being replaced. My force has a freeze on recruitment at present yet we need more officers. When this will happen, who knows.
What really annoys me is the media. Officers will often be criticised (and deservedly so), but what often gets unreported are the acts that save lives, and prevent disasters from happening.
It is a tough job, and yes I agree NHS and hm forces do a tough job too. Public servants are feeling the cosh of this government more and more, and you have pointed out that the govmt. alternatives are just as bad.
It is the small things that help, a colleague of mine saved a small child yesterday as she was choking. He was first on scene and his first aid saved the Childs life. The ambulance was another 5 minutes. Again because the paramedic was elsewhere and they too were stretched to the limit.
What is scary is what would happen should another spate of riots take hold. Would we(the emergency services) be able to provide you, the public, with the service you deserve?

The Sun under the ownership of Rupert Murdoch is never going to be "left-wing" rudebwoy. What is unusual and interesting is the Sun's attacks on Tory politicians, specially from a perspective of their personal wealth and privileged backgrounds (something which the Daily Mail has also done recently btw)

Equally unusual and interesting is a Tory Party which is clearly relaxed about seriously antagonizing the police service. Yep, imo we live in strange/interesting times.

The Murdoch empire, the police and the government are making a pretence of being at loggerheads, normal service will soon be resumed, with loans of horses, knighthoods and expensive meals, as they all cosy up together for mutual protection.

They are not going to get have mutual protection by being at loggerheads with each other. And I'm not sure that any damage they have done to each others interests can be wiped away by simply 'resuming normal service'.

The day the police join the pickets, thats when you know you've got a revolution

I support everything my police officer colleagues have said in this thread, there is no other job like it. Yes the military risk their lives every day and, like us, they knew what they were signing up to. Like my fellow officers I joined to complete 30yrs service with a decent pension at the end of it. This Government wants to change my contract without me having any choice in the matter. I cannot strike and although we have a federation, they have tried, and mostly failed, so far to defend our position. If this was really about saving money then why didn't the Government accept our money saving proposals which would have saved the same if not more than the current proposals without the risk of devaluing and destroying the police service as we know it? And as for the 'independent' review that brought these proposals forward, Tom Windsor's report mirrors that of a report made by Cameron some years ago and not only does he have connections with G4s he has now been given the role of her majesty's chief inspectorate, despite never serving as a police officer. The Tories have done a brilliant job of turning the public against us in regards of pay and conditions, so much so that our views and opinions sound like nothing more than sour grapes now. The job is different to every other out there and should be treated differently, unless you are a serving officer it is now very difficult to see past the Tories spin. I will never be voting Conservative again.

Trevor.

Objectively policing isn't a dangerous job. Even being in the military isn't too dangerous unless you do bomb disposal. Dangerous jobs include window cleaning, fishing, oil and gas, farming, mining .. ermm , mining, best stop there.

The police in the UK are actually really rather accountable. Which goes a long way in explaining why they are so superior to many other police forces throughout the world.

A good example of the British police's accountability is the huge systemic changes which occurred after the tragic case of Stephen Lawrence. Lessons were learnt and the police today is very different to the police before Stephen Lawrence's death.

Constant criticism and a willingness to respond is what has got us the police forces which we have today. But also vital is the recognition of achievements and gratitude for an exemplary service when warranted.

They may well be more accountable than other forces, but there is still a long way to go. I accept that we can never have a perfect police force in an imperfect society, but just because our police are 'better' than other countries' does not mean we should be complacent. Our police aren't the best in the World, and it's our duty as citizens to ensure we keep striving to make them so, through vigilance and criticism. This is for all our benefit.

Call-me-Dave has graced GMP with his presence today, no doubt for his photo op, then he'll hot foot it back to the safety of the South East. I'm sure they'll all be very pleased to see him

They may well be more accountable than other forces, but there is still a long way to go.

Again, worryingly - I heard what I think was a senior policeman from greater Manchester on the radio talking about the response to the Dale Cregan murders. He talked about how great it was how the public have responded, especially after the police have been getting a kicking from the newspapers recently, and how certain people just love to put the boot in (not quite in those words).

Erm yeah.... the police have been heavily criticised recently because many of them took part in a fairly wide-ranging and serious conspiracy to defame innocent dead people (including children) in order to cover up their own incompetence. A conspiracy which has only properly come to light decades later, after numerous attempts to whitewash and cover it up.

A little contrition might be in order you would think.

I didn't hear the interview on the radio but I fail to understand what is wrong in reminding people that despite the damning events of Hillsborough all those years ago, there is also another side to policing. In fact I think it is rather timely to be reminded, and all the more so after the recent tragic deaths of two police officers in Manchester.

I think it would be fine to mention it, but some recognition of the fact that much of the criticism over Hillsborough was entirely justified might be in order.

If it had been put the way you put it I would have found it more palateable - it just came across as a bit of a moan that 'oh we always get a hard time'. Maybe so, but in the case of Hillsborough quite understandably. I just find you get a lot of this 'we have to stick together' mentality from the police being expressed here and elsewhere, and a lack of willingness to criticise fellow officers even when they have clearly behaved terribly - which is rather worrying in terms of preventing future abuses.

Despite there seemingly being many officers on here not many were willing to offer an opinion on Hillsborough for instance - why is that? Don't want to criticise their fellow officers, or believe they were wronged and still blame the fans?

I can understand why it happens but the 'bunker mentality' is not healthy IMO.

Fair enough I didn't hear the radio interview so can't argue with that. Although an example which everyone can relate to would have made your point more clearly, I would have thought.

As far as your little dig at coppers on this forum is concerned; it has long been clear to me that those who openly declare themselves to be coppers (I'm sure some probably don't) are easily among the most sensible and rational forum users, and with which you can often engage in logical debate. Which isn't by any means universal on here.

I am not in the least bit surprised that they don't want to get bogged down arguing about policing on a mtb forum, even least about something as emotive as Hillsborough. In fact I suspect they probably often don't even bother clicking on "police threads", in the same way as I don't bother clicking on some of the political threads - specially ones concerning trade unions.

But judging by their past contributions, unlike apparently you, I have absolutely no reason to believe that any would reject the conclusion which now accepted by everyone, including the police force concerned, that Hillsborough was anything other than a total policing disaster with tragic consequences.

As far as your little dig at coppers on this forum is concerned;

Not really meant as a dig - I just worry that there is still a 'stick together and protect your own' mentality within the police which is understandable but not healthy. Maybe I'm wrong.

Glitch bump.

Well said Ernie.

I have absolutely no reason to believe that any would reject the conclusion which now accepted by everyone, including the police force concerned, that Hillsborough was anything other than a total policing disaster with tragic consequences.

Only grudgingly accepted by some people, eg Norman Bettison. Is it safe to assume he is the only one?

There must be quite a number of people in the police force who have essentially gone along with this defamation/cover-up - either actively involved or keeping silent about it. Are they all going to be sacked/prosecuted? Sorry but it seems unlikely.

I haven't had a chance yet to read the most recent stuff that's come out about Hillsborough, and will do so at some point. But regarding the 150+ (or whatever it was) police statements that were altered to cover up incompetency, was it 150+ officers being told to alter their own statements and then doing so, or was it 150+ officer's statements being altered by bosses to remove parts that criticised the senior officers? My understanding was that it was the latter, alterations made by senior officers to keep themselves out of the shit, rather than 100's of officers hiding stuff. Is that incorrect?

its not incorrect greatape but the police (and ambo drivers) who had their statements altered did not speak out, assuming they got to see/ sign off on their final statement

assuming they got to see/ sign off on their final statement

That's what I'm wondering - did they know?

Druidh- I would do but we have a wee week and a bit old that only got out of hospital yesterday so I'll be at home for the foreseeable!

I work with officers that were working at Hillsborough that day, all I will say is don't believe everything you are told and maybe read some of the officers statements to see how traumatic it would have been for them, then and now.

I work with officers that were working at Hillsborough that day, all I will say is don't believe everything you are told

Everything you are told by who?

One officer at Hillsborough who was pensioned off young due to Hillsborough "trauma" is now living happily in France... . Now where's that smiley with a zip through the mouth?

And several more officers are not! Read the statements, imagine how you would feel in that situation and make your own judgements. In my opinion it wasn't just the fault of the police, yes the commanders in charge that day made bad decisions but the PCs on the ground did what they could in the face of a disaster. All parties contributed to what happened that day and if you read individual statements and speak to people who lived near the ground there certainly was drunkeness and many fans without tickets and officers abused and spat on when tending to the injured and that is fact. All I ask is that you don't just take what is said in the media as gospel. The evidence is available for everyone to view.

Trevor.

I work with officers that were working at Hillsborough that day, all I will say is don't believe everything you are told and maybe read some of the officers statements to see how traumatic it would have been for them, then and now.

I am sorry it was traumatic for the officers then and now at Hillsborough. As traumatic for the 96 dead, their families and friends. For the 23 years of lies. For the coverup. Yes I have read most of the report and the statements and how do they sleep at nights. The depths these officers plumbed and the lies they told, ok some were factual but many many many were not. DO NOT DARE TELL ME HOW TRAUMATIsED OFFICERS WERE BY HILLSBOROUGH, HAVE SOME RESPECT.

Yeah don't believe everything you read! Especially if its a police statement, there is a 75% likelihood its been altered (fact 116 of 164 statements, sorry recollections altered) equally anything out of senior police officers mouths.

I truly cannot believe you have the audacity to make that statement. Truly shameful. When should we start believing what we read, the last week and half or the last 23 years?

Yeah a coppers lot may be difficult but do yourselves a favour, stop covering things up, stop trying to mislead the public. When you make a mistake stand up and answer for it rather than besmirching the good name of 96 dead souls. OK I am close to Hillsborough but look at all the other lies and coverups.

Desperately sorry two officers were killed by a scrote BUT take a damn good look at what the police force is. Norman Bettison, I rest my case, even after the findings last week he still insisted the fans contributed, he has since apologised, too little too late Its been a 23 year coverup and not a single officer came forward, not a single officer was man enough to say this is wrong they all closed ranks and thought that they could hide the truth.

If anyone crosses you on this thread, use the ultimate insult; 'pleb'

😆

In seriousness. Hillsborough and two officers killed were sharing Beeb news coverage with some birds tits (who cares? He wont be a popular King just like his Dad wouldnt)....nowhere near the Queen and now Plebgate. Wtf.

Didn't the Report deal with any contribution from drunken and ticketless fans to the disaster?

thorpie - Member

All I ask is that you don't just take what is said in the media as gospel. The evidence is available for everyone to view.

People are using the evidence provided to the Hillsborough Independent Panel, including scrutiny from Lord Justice Stuart-Smith - should they not believe that ? Do you have no faith in the British judiciary ? Are you a copper ? 😕

That's what I'm wondering - did they know?

Heard a retired officer on 5Live say he had seen a scanned copy of his statement only recently (as a result of the investigations) and it had paragraphs missing now that he had written at the time. So he was unaware of the editing.

Pingu66, you clearly and rightly feel strongly about Hillsborough, but as with all groups you are lumping all officers together. From what Ive read of the Ian Thomlinson case he shouldnt have been in the force, he had resigned once and then been accepted back which is mind boggling.

I just worry that there is still a 'stick together and protect your own' mentality within the police which is understandable but not healthy. Maybe I'm wrong

I spent 2 years on our covert anti corruption/professional standards/internal affairs unit using the same techniques we use against serious organised criminals on suspected 'bent' coppers. My very last job on that dept ended up with the subject going to prison. I left that dept on promotion back to response policing, and far from being some form of pariah my PCs thought my last job was cool and fished for stories. Most of us don't want what we do being demeaned and undermined by the few.

As for Winsor's "independent" review, his findings echo word-for-word a Cameron speech made before they got into power on how he thought the police should be reformed. We are not against change; Ive been in 10 years and the whole organisation, structures, goals etc constantly change. I don't disagree with many of Winsor's proposals in theory, but the overall result is to change it from being seen as a vocation to a short term career, which will serve to lose the sense of dedication that it requires.

I've seen and done things that have reduced me to tears, I've seen the best and the worst in human nature, I've saved lives, and I've been robbed of the opportunity to do so by seconds. I joined at 30 and took a substantial paycut to do so. We're not all knuckle draggers- I'm not the only officer in my station with a PhD. The breadth of experiences I've had, the massive highs, the sense of family (check out officers nationwide offering to work in GMP to cover their officers to attend the funeral) and just occasionally the difference I've managed to make to someones life makes it the best job in the world. Sometimes.

Pingu66, of course I have respect for people that were killed at Hillsborough, how can you even suggest I don't. All I am saying is that I am able to speak with at least two officers, who were there, trying to rescue and save fans and I have the benefit of a different view (and opinion) of what happened that day. I am not covering up any policing mistakes as clearly there were some and amongst other issues (communication for example) these can be seen in the report. The mistakes made by police that day were not made at PC level and as well as having the upmost respect and sympathy for the 96 dead I also have the upmost sympathy and respect for my colleagues who were there, faced with the disaster, and just like the families who lost loved ones, a day doesn't go by where they are not affected in someway as well. Please don't try and twist my words and turn my comments into something they are not, our police service has taken a battering this last few weeks and although down I still remain committed and proud to be a Police Officer.

Trevor.

I read thorpies post as differentiating between coppers on the ground and management during and after the event rather than a slight on the fans and their families, but I am more distant than Pingu.

The front line officers reacted as you would hope they would, and I haven't heard of specific criticisms of their actions?

Everybody in that ground who survived was traumatised whether they wore a football shirt or a uniform. Like I said, you sometimes see the best in human nature displayed...

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crashtestmonkey, Thankyou, exactly as you said.

Trevor.

I agree that not all police are bad, however and as a generalisation, they close ranks to protect the guilty. Yes it was senior officers responsibility etc and yes I am 100% positive most police are doing and trying to do a fantastic job. Even though generally my experiences have been negative, occasionally due to my own actions and other times through no fault of my own.

I can relate stories of over zealous policing and lies in court on a personal level and I am not a bad person, fortunately the video evidence supported my version of events. Equally the media tend to portray the negative as news rather than the positive. But when the likes of Simon Harwood are treated with kid gloves you have to ask questions. Additionally the the police watchdog is asking for more powers after many many corruption allegations and only a handful of disciplinary actions against officers.

I have no doubt your jobs are difficult and the force needs reform however that will take time and where we are at today has been brought about by the actions of a few aggressively reported in the media. I t goes on at a lower level all the time and different forces have different reputations.

I wish we had a force we could trust implicitly but we are a long way from that and probably not in the next 20 years. Your job is also getting harder and you are at the front line of a fundamentally flawed judicial system. It must be so frustrating seeing people you know are guilty walking away or getting of relatively lightly.

I do acknowledge the difficulties you all face BUT it should not take public inquiries to own up to them. Even relatively small mistakes police cover up rather than stepping up and admitting "yes we could have done better". The nature of your job means mistakes will be made, we are all human. However its how we act when we make mistakes that makes us stand out. Regrettably as well its not the sort of job where you could operate as a lone wolf as you need to rely on your colleagues therefore it becomes very difficult to acknowledge the issues that you see.

Liverpool Matrix officers fired for selling seized goods on ebay.

Liverpool Chief Inspector sacked for gross misconduct.

Liverpool constable sacked for trawling files for vulnerable women to date.

Liverpool Officer sacked for visiting prostitutes

Unfortunately the media fail to report generally the great work the police often do. So for balance.

Liverpool the conviction of Anthony Walkers killers

Liverpool, conviction of Graham Heaps for killing a 3 year old.

Liverpool conviction of Rhys Jones killers

Liverpool conviction of the killers of James Bulger.

I can still say hand on heart that most officers are trying to do a good job, unfortunately the issues are spread right through your ranks that make it difficult to firstly do your job and secondly be respected by the public at large.

Its a difficult job nobody doubts that, you have the addition of relying on the judicial system after you have done your job. You often need the tenacity to uncover events and see things probably nobody should. Personally I treat officers I meet with respect, occasionally they have not deserved that respect.

However it doesn't help when people start calling people plebs, I am unsure what Hora does, I only hope they are not an officer!

From the bottom of my heart from what I have read I believe that the police on here are doing a genuinely good job, I wish they were alas good.