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its not a bit of a stretch, believe me
andymc06 - Member
We joined because we wanted to do something worthwhile and help others in society.
That may well be the case for you but I can't imagine such altruism runs throughout the force. There's loads of reasons why people join up and 'doing good' isn't always at the top of the list.
ScottChegg
It's not a free lunch. I've paid 11% of my earnings for 11 years and sacrificed an untold amount mentally, emotionally and physically. I'd be interested to know what you do for a living. You have no idea about policing.
@andymc. Leave, get another job. My pension was raided after paying in for 18 years and I was pissed off with my employer. I moved on. If you're that pee'd off, so should you.
Boblo
Sure not everyone. However most I know joined for altruistic reasons but the job can turn people cynical very quickly.
The deal has been changed. Hope it does not change any more.
You're joking aren't you? This is only the start. I reckon if you're under 40 you'll be working until you drop. Its going to be like Catch 22 where they keep raising the number of missions, as Yossarian completes them.
By the time we get to 'retirement' age, its going to be a dusty relic, a quaint little thing they used to do in the late 20th century. A life of subsistence level poverty awaits most I would imagine. And I say that as someone with two (private) pensions, who knows what they'll actually pay me. Next to **** all!!!
11% of my earnings
Is that so you get a full pension after 30 years, could you start in police at 19 and retire on full pension at 49?
Also i am now planning for the future based on the changes. The police service and the public will lose out as many skilled officers look to do the same. I think that that is rather a shame.
Not me but the wife..
spat on/at - yep
punched - yep
stabbed - not personally, but a colleague yes.
Viciously attacked leading to broken bones - Yep
shot - nope,
killed - I do believe school staff have been killed (although not at her school).
And all for about minimum wage (She's a TA).
A view from a public sector (civvy) worker.
It's not just the police who are at risk in our communities. 3 members of my security staff successfully disarmed a mentally ill student with a knife yesterday. Due to staffing cuts, the police response time where I work is pathetically bad. After a previous incident involving a similar situation I was told by a senior officer that frontline staffing levels were at critical levels and we should plan according. So we have. I have to say that my experiences of the police in part of my job are mixed at best.
As for the comments relating to unprofessional behaviour by serving police officers and the neutrality of the IPCC and the CPS well....hillsborough, Tomlinson & Mark Kennedy/Bob Lambert are all recent examples of duplicity. I'm positive that for every allegation of misconduct that is upheld there are a hundred that are rejected as the officer has been shown to be entirely inocent of wrongdoing. The trouble is that there is a perception that police are liable to cover up their mistakes, indeed there is recent proof that they do. Comments above that serving officers need to stick even more closely together worry me. It's entirely understandable that an organisation that perceives itself to be under threat should close ranks, however I hope this doesn't lead to a widening gulf in trust between the police and the public.
Re-reading the above makes me sound like I don't value the job the police do. That's not the case. It seems that the role has become far more difficult, far more scrutinised, and perhaps the service as a whole hasn't adapted the changing landscape as quickly as our expectations have changed.
In the one and only occasion that I've need to call 999 at home (we had an intruder in the house - in my 3 year old's bedroom) they were fantastic. Arrived in seconds, dog teams onsite and caught and detained the fella hiding nearby. Probably saved me from a manslaughter charge also 😉
Dobbo,
Not any more. I'll be doing 41 years. Imagine a 60 year old patrolling your city centre on a Friday or Saturday night....
slow hand clap for all the public servants infighting, mostly without the full true facts or any real understanding of other sectors work or conditions, save that reported...
however you look at it, you gotta hand it to the powers that be, divide and conquer.
Dobbo. Yes. That is what i based my life decisions on.
andymc06 - Member
Also i am now planning for the future based on the changes. The police service and the public will lose out as many skilled officers look to do the same. I think that that is rather a shame.
And so you should not least because there's no place for cynical malcontents (I.e. not 100% committed to 'the' cause) in that sort of job. 'They' don't seem to care about haemorrhaging skills and experience, 'they' just see head count and cost. This is because business management has found it's way into managing public services. Presumably if I get arrested, I'm now a 'customer' in the same way I'm no longer a patient to the NHS?
.
No longer the case however!!!
scotchegg do you still have to pay 11% as well then?
And so you should Boblo? How patronising. What do you? Because I voice my concerns about my pay and conditions being decimated I'm a cynical malcontent?
Always fancied joining up but this thread is certainly food for thought. (not that I can find any one recruiting anyway)
http://www.socahighpotential.co.uk/
not quite the police service but might be of interest
ScottChegg - MemberYet it was Gordon and Tony who initially set the Pension business wobbling by raiding every Pension fund in the land. Except the Public sector Pension, which is paid for by taxpayers. Maybe Snooty is just evening the playing field?
it was nigel lawson that came up with the idea of pension holidays and taxing pension surplusses
that was the moment all pensions started their decline
granted nulabour were no better but if theres one man who is to blame its him (incidently his pension pot wouldve been huge and mostly funded by the taxpayer)
That may well be the case for you but I can't imagine such altruism runs throughout the force. There's loads of reasons why people join up and 'doing good' isn't always at the top of the list.
To be fair, with the exception of one lad who had strong ties with a particularly unsavoury crime group, I don't know anyone who [i]Didn't[/i] join for that reason.
Nope about 14% now.
I gave up the prospects of further education to join the police. I am 28 with 9 years service. I have no qualifications that can be utilised outside of policing.
I love the job. But wish I had made some different decisions in my life.
Soca would be a great career
how many police took early retirement whilst awaiting disciplinary action, ---- accountability is key for all services, with the police we certainly need a robust independent authority, not as at present where investigations are often in house, or by other 'forces'
We had a chief constable who was way ahead of his time (n wales)-- he knew a cultural change was needed amongst his own, he has since retired, but met him a couple of times, the guy was straight down the line, very hard on the motorist, was big on community policing, and beleived drug policy should be a health not criminal matter.
To all my colleagues: good luck in the future whatever it brings. Stay safe.
andymc06 - Member
And so you should Boblo? How patronising. What do you? Because I voice my concerns about my pay and conditions being decimated I'm a cynical malcontent?
Sorry, that wasn't meant to be as offensive as it sounds. You said you were making alternative plans and someone up there ^ mentioned cynicism, I was responding to that. What I meant (but expressed badly) is unless you're 100% on it, I would imagine being elsewhere is a much better bet.
As for me, I reinforce the STW stereotype alas (apart from the mandatory tubbyness)
Ah Brunstrom. What a **** he was. Even most welsh people hated him.
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We had a chief constable who was way ahead of his time (n wales)-- he knew a cultural change was needed amongst his own, he has since retired, but met him a couple of times, the guy was straight down the line, very hard on the motorist, was big on community policing, and beleived drug policy should be a health not criminal matter.
I think he was also considered a bit of a 'Joke' by the residents of N.Wales. Very unpopular and lacked respect from the public - penalising otherwise law abiding motorists for straying a few mph over the speed limit rather than chasing criminals was the common perception. Lots of locals residents could breathe a big sign of relief when he left, no longer having to fear being caught going about their daily business by police officers with spy cameras hiding inside horse boxes.
Fair enough Boblo.
ill informed crap as ever, Brunstrum - he was ahead of his time, 67 road deaths in one year, he said most were 'preventable'-- speed plays a huge part in most of those, if there were 67 murders on his patch there would be an outcry....
speed plays a huge part in most of those
Rubbish, speed does not cause accidents - 'bad driving' does. Brunstrom's hate campaign against speeders just reinforced the mentality that so long as you don't speed then you must be a safe driver. He couldn't have been more wrong.
i love speeding motorists, its always someone else not them who are the problem !
the horse box, was placed at a notorious stretch of the A470, where there have been a number of fatalities, a well known speed area, so what defence should you have if you are endangering others by your actions ?
people driving to fast for the prevailing conditions if you want another wording, you lose control you are by definition going too fast--
This thread is not about speeding....
guns don't kill- its the people with them......
where did he say you were a safe driver by not speeding? thats just claptrap, a false premise used by the roadhogs, me i'm great its all the others who can't drive......
Not to drag this further offtopic, but ask Mark Gibney's family what they think of Brunstrom.
But every job has its bad apples and to hold up one crap chief constable in a thread about the service in general is a bit poor IMO.
Bregante - that was a very interesting OP and I am sure very helpful to the recipient. It was also very heartfelt given the appalling news yesterday. But so many things captured there, its almost too much to take in.
I guess there is pretty broad support for the amazing jobs that you do and the extremely difficult conditions that you face. Most of us cannot comprehend them, nor the daily challenges of potentially facing extreme danger and having to play by somewhat artificial rules when addressing them. Of course, there are some here and in society who are less supportive, but I think they are in the minority.
But then there is separate issue that you raise about pay and conditions. And even that is not straightforward. So Andymc06 argues that...
All we are asking for, irrespective of what is happening to others, is what we signed up to.
...which is true for most people across most professions and sectors. So the crux comes in his later point...
It's excessive given what we sacrifice and are prepared to sacrifice every day for strangers and society as a whole.
...that's the real nub and frankly not an easy one to answer. But good to have a separate thread to debate it.
As its a cycle forum, I will leave it with a "chapeau" to you and your colleagues.
policing requires consent to be effective, and in some parts of the country that has obviously broken down.
Having worked alongside police, like others on here, with the most disadvantaged,and vulnerable parts of society, it can blinker your view of life.
Look on the bright side.
All of the police on here will be working for G4S soon. 😀
I am making plans to leave, as are a number of my shift. Those of us younger in service have been well and truly stuffed by this government. We are all on a far inferior pension already as Labour bought in a new plan in 2006. I can't see much point in those that stay paying 14% into a pension that will pay so little out. Years of stress and shift work mean police officers die very young so they will be lucky to make it to their new retirement age. Pay and conditions aside, I don't want to be part of Winsor's new police force. His proposals will end in a paramilitary style police force of young men. All nonviolent tasks will be taken on by civilian (private sector) staff. Everything will be done on the cheap. My current force are using G4S to attend burglaries already.
Thank you to our colleagues in green who are also out and about every night. I hope things work out for you guys.
The speed limits were originally chosen to make collisions survivable. Hit a pedestian at les than 30mph and they have a chance of surviving, more and they have almost no chance. Hav e problem on the open road at 50mph and the chances are that by the time you hit anything you'll have slowed and little and will survive. The limits are too high in urban areas IMO.
But every job has its bad apples and to hold up one crap chief constable in a thread about the service in general is a bit poor IMO.
That's not what happened. Someone attempted to hold him up as an example of good police 😆
how is he a 'bad' apple-- compared to who---
Find it interesting that a progressive police chief is called a bad un
Current coppers will lament the change in conditions and pay but as there a plenty of people wanting to join as the pay,pension and conditions are still better than most.
Its the same in the forces, nursing, councills and big companies etc but people still sign up
have a good look around people in the private sector may get similar pay but the pensions can be vairiable or non existant and other benefits like sick pay can be very poor and job security is very poor
I hope the good coppers stay in post and carry on looking after the public
I find it staggering how many people seem to think they know all about policing because they once watched Panorama, an episode of the Bill and are annoyed that the guy who nicked their lawnmower wasnt caught. Its a profession requiring training, skill and experience. The same as any other. I wouldnt profess to know how to carry out an apendectomy or fly an Apache. The specialist job I do within the police is incredibly rewarding and important but it will never be recognised in public and the modest rewards I signed up for are being taken away from me. Funnily enough that annoys me, the same as it would all the self-righteous, mis-informed big mouths on here. I got a very good degree and offered a well paid job in the City. Instead I chose to join up to help people. The current government and the mainstam media are slowly eroding what is consistently regarded as the best police service in the world. Sure its not perfect, but its still the best.
Are you surfmat?
I wish
Nonsense-- that is true of all public sector workers, maligned, overworked and defo underpaid, the media are owned mostly by a few very rich individuals, he who pays the piper.......
self-righteous, mis-informed big mouths on here
Anyone who criticises the police is this? There are lots of more dangerous jobs and lots that help people and plenty that are harder and have worse pay and conditions. Just saying.
Nonsense-- that is true of all public sector workers, maligned, overworked and defo underpaid, the media are owned mostly by a few very rich individuals, he who pays the piper..
maligned yes
media owned by v rich with their own agenda yes
the rest no
Rudebwoy, you are the first person I have ever heard say anything good about him! Without exception the perception from the people round me was he was obsessed with speeding and even spent his spare time at speed traps, also earning the nickname traffic Taliban!. It may well have been undeserved but that was the perception and it really did not help with relations with the people I know and to be honest they were glad when he went. This is a real shame because this one element of his strategy overshadowed all his other work, you can argue all you like about the legitimacy of his actions but when the public don't support you it makes things more difficult...
he was evangelical in some ways, met him first at an open meeting, he took questions from all for hours, i went with an open mind, and it shocked me that i found myself agreeing with virtually all he said.
The fact that clarkson made him public enemy no1 should be in his favour.He was not on a popularity contest, perhaps he was wanted to do too much too quickly, but don't condemn him for that.
I find it staggering how many people seem to think they know all about policing .......
Sure I do........the present Tory government (and their LibDem lackeys) reckons I know so much about policing that I will have a say in selecting my local police and crime commissioner.
It's a well known fact that Joe Public is an expert when it comes to fighting crime and deterrents. String 'em up, arm the police, and zero tolerance, is the result of expert analysis and well informed conclusions reached whilst having a pint down the pub with equally well-informed mates.
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The current government and the mainstam media are slowly eroding what is consistently regarded as the best police service in the world. Sure its not perfect, but its still the best.
Slowly but surely all the things which once made Britain unique and the envy of the world have been eroded to a level that at best are now average. The two British institutions still remaining which provide a shinning example to the rest of the world are the BBC and British police.
But don't expect any commitment to those two institutions from this shower of ****s now in power, and their private/profit fetishes.
Marcus7, strangely Mr Brunstrom targeted motorists speeding and breaking the laws, as they have the potential to kill and seriously injure other road users,and often do, i would rather have a few officers manning a speed camera, than trying to track down a thief who has stolen a pair of trainers ,also it was north wales police speed camera team that spotted and charged the a neighbouring chief constable with speeding, the same chap was also the head of the ACPO roads policing unit.
At the present time to much of the polices time is taken up with dealing with alchol fueled incidents, and social service type requests, its about time families where forced to take comntrol of their problems, or just be ignored and left to fight it out between themselves.
Have a read of a book called wasting police time, written by a serbving police officer, and see the sort of pointless social services day he has to deal with.
It certainly should not be a popularity contest but allowing a perception of a no mercy approach to an element of policing did him no favours and I believe he could and should have headed off the negative publicity sooner, instead he seemed to bask in that reputation. Like all things you have to pick your battles and I just think he fought it badly
Slowly but surely all the things which once made Britain unique and the envy of the world have been eroded to a level that at best are now average. The two British institutions still remaining which provide a shinning example to the rest of the world are the BBC and British police.
Thank you Ernie.
Project, I never had/ have issues with the policing of roads, I'm just saying that at that time an image of targeting motorist was allowed to develop at the expence of other policing duties, it wasn't true but people believed it and that was the mistake imo. I'm not critical of the policy just the execution. I'm making no comment on the current plocies as this has already strayed way off topic except to say all my dealings with the police have been positive ( I nearly joined 10 years ago!) And take my hat off to them all.
Everything will be done on the cheap
This.
Nobody is disputing economic reality. What really fugging riles is how it's being used as an excuse for some kind of ideological yardsale - whether it be offloading police stuff to G4S or handing NHS primary care over to Serco. [i]Far[/i] from providing value, it simply amounts to a subsidy of corporate profits even as services are being reduced. All waved thru by a bunch of politicos who, I suspect, would pish themselves with fear if they had to do a nightshift on the sharp end of things.
Speaking as an NHS type, I have huge sympathy for frontline Police and what they have to deal with.
[i]what other job in the public sector do you get spat on , punched, stabbed, shot, killed,?[/i]
Maybe not shot at work (yet)
Prison Officers deal with what the police/courts send them, often for years & years.
I spent tonight on G wing with one other colleague & 50 category C prisoners. 4 of them on ACCTS (self harm obs).
& we'll do it all again tomorrow,
I began reading last nights thread with regard to the very sad loss of two of my colleagues but refrained from comment as I knew there may be trolls at some point that would make my blood boil and as an officer of 29 years service I can rise above it. I have read the initial parts of this thread but skim read the usual comments that often appear to come from people trolling.
I too have sadly had to reply to friends of my children who are considering the Police as a 'career' with similar words to the OP. I still say my piece when in meetings with managers for the good of the staff that will still be in the job after I have gone, likewise I now feel it is time to defend the good officers and police staff against any misconceptions or bad experiences some of the STW world and friends and family have experienced.
Firstly having done 17 years of shift work in uniform before specialising I can without doubt say that policing has damaged my health for ever through lack of sleep/conditions/poor lifestyle but i offset this with the number of lives I have saved whilst risking my own life. I am proud to have recieved 10 police constable commendations for bravery and a Royal Humane Society award for saving a womans life in imminent danger. I have also been grilled in both Crown Court and Magistrates Court for policing and protecting myself and others and been treated as the criminal but always cleared of any wrong doing.
I have payed over 11% of my monthly pay to recieve a pension that because of the ill health that I have gained through policing will potentially cut my life short by 10 years to what I should have lived, when the average worker, even public sector worker has only paid in 3%!
The current specialist job I do within the job I love doing, I still get the rush and satisfaction when a criminal gets 8 years for dealing in poison or other long sentence for destroying peoples lives by other means.
I have known bad officers, rest assured Karma happens, what goes around comes around and some of those bad officers have ended up where they belong-in prison!
Soldiers have soldiers jobs, different in training and deployment and in expectations that they will be willing to kill or be killed for their Queen and Country.
99.9% of Officers are fine, upstanding, giving, selfless human beings who have a heart and as an aside feel that they really are being decimated by previous financial mis-management and the whimsy of current political puppetry.
I for one am so sad that I now wish my life away for the next twelve months so that I am no longer part of what used to be a policing family of the people for the people of the UK but as others have alluded to will become a dwindling number amongst a sea of 'cheap' policing with no care and no heart.
Rant over, as I have to be up early to go and keep everyone safe from harm!
hm forces still a shinning example also?
Glitchy
[quote=Suggsey ]I began reading last nights thread with regard to the very sad loss of two of my colleagues but refrained from comment as I knew there may be trolls at some point that would make my blood boil and as an officer of 29 years service I can rise above it. I have read the initial parts of this thread but skim read the usual comments that often appear to come from people trolling.Everyone who doesn't agree with every word the OP writes is a troll?
Is that really all you saw fit to comment on from Suggseys post?Everyone who doesn't agree with every word the OP writes is a troll?
Good but sad comments Suggsey and as someone who sees first hand on a regular basis the sort of shit the Police have to put up with, I have nothing but respect for the job they do.
Your comments re 'wishing away the next 12 months' hit home, as I have seen many good colleagues do exactly the same thing, some from fear that their pension is going to change before they retire and others due to failing health. It's an appalling state of affairs.
has damaged my health for ever through lack of sleep/conditions/poor lifestyle
so what makes your shifts different from everybody elses? or as you have stated poor lifestyle, you have the federation who seem to be good at ensuring you are looked after
shorter life what do you base that on?
retiring at 50 or less on an average pension index linked of £14k sounds good to me
yes it is a hard job and one I couldnt and wouldnt do and it is vital that the right type are recruited and retained and the powermad and idiots removed
Let's not get into a pissing match. But how the hell can a federation that has no bargaining chip ever look after its members.
Following from 2 weeks ago no officer with less than 20 years service will retire with the pension you talk of.
Look at the life sacrifices police officers make for a career. Even our forces sign up to 22 years. I chose the police as I did not want to be a solider.
30 years service, dealing with what society cant. At 19 that is quantifiable and achievable. 30 years. I can do that. Now let's go to 41 years.
It is a joke.
I can sit at a computer til I am 60. But really, I cannot see me saving life and limb at that age. I signed up for life.
I agree there is a requisite for change. But to change goal posts in such a manner is a disgrace.
Set the bar, but do not raise it.
Fully support the police on the cuts and shifting the goalposts on pensions etc.
Still see some worrying signs of the 'look out for your own' mentality though. I wonder how much has really changed since Hillsborough, given that we are only just finding out the truth about it now (and some are STILL blaming the fans). Also, brushing aside 1500 custody deaths with jokes and implying they're all lowlifes anyway, hmmmm......
Plenty of others doing stressful jobs btw. Not saying its the same but I know of plenty of teachers, youth workers, ambulance people, hospital workers etc who've been assaulted at work.
I did my advanced motorbike test recently. Had a good chat with the copper who did it ( voluntarily I might add). I was very jealous of him retiring after 30 years in the job. Wouldnt want to do his job fot ten times the money he gets though.
I still want to join the Specials and do my bit. The Specials awareness evening dates are rare though it seems in GMP.
Bregante if you ever fancy a Peaks/small group ride any weekend - You know the offers always there.
Isnt running down the national services the first step towards privatisation?? The tories love that word. If they hold onto the next election the G4S will be policing the streets/ picking up the injured / putting out fires. Bankrupt health boards / hospitals... one step towards privatisation. Just a matter of time.
So what about the PFI projects that are now screwing up Hospital trusts Cloudnine?
..but thats a different topic.
hora - MemberI still want to join the Specials and do my bit.
*shudders*
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Which one would you be hora?
I did my advanced motorbike test recently. Had a good chat with the copper who did it ( voluntarily I might add). I was very jealous of him retiring after 30 years in the job. Wouldnt want to do his job fot ten times the money he gets though.
He may well have to work over 40 years to get less pension now.can you imagine two 59 year old cops turning up to a pub full of fighting drunks in Salford/ any other city on a Saturday night?
Isnt running down the national services the first step towards privatisation?? The tories love that word. If they hold onto the next election the G4S will be policing the streets/ picking up the injured / putting out fires. Bankrupt health boards / hospitals... one step towards privatisation. Just a matter of time.
100% correct.
By placing ridiculous budget cuts on the service means that in many areas the service will fail. At the same time put a puppet in place as senior inspector Constabulary - Tom Winsor.
To be clear who Tom Winsor is, he is the former rail regulator with no Policing experience whatsoever. He is a partner at white & case the law firm that advised G4S on their "takeover" of Linolnshire Police.
To give colour to this also consider that the current Policing Minister Nick Herbert set up the think tank regarding the improvement of public services via private sector involvement.
Also consider that The Prudential own a large portion of G4S.
Which you may find interesting when you consider that our Home Secretary Theresa May is a Pru shareholder.
In many ways the pay & conditions arguments and concerns are a mere red herring. However, when you consider that an entirely independent tribunal made specific comment that the changes that were being proposed could not make any tangible savings, you have to wonder what is going on. Your police service are being shafted and you will feel the consequence. The problem is that the Goverment will portray the failings as the fault if the Police, thus undermining any public support or sympathy. Take the words and combative language used when Cameron 1st introduced the Winsor review:
"[i]Why is it right that these people can retire on a full pension after only 30 years of work?[/i] whilst failing to mention that MPs get exactly the same pension with only a 5.9% contribution as oppose to the 11% officers were then paying. Political corruption at its finest.
😆 at grum.
hora will always be "special"
He may well have to work over 40 years to get less pension now.can you imagine two 59 year old cops turning up to a pub full of fighting drunks in Salford/ any other city on a Saturday night?
In the private sector people get promoted above the hard physical front-line work to desk jobs as they get older. Their experience reamins within the business but gets used in other ways. Policing seems ideal for this strategy especially as such a small proportion of officers working are out and about if published statistics are to be believed. Policing is mainly a paper chase (or computer chase) and administration.
In the private sector people get promoted above the hard physical front-line work to desk jobs as they get older. Their experience reamins within the business but gets used in other ways. Policing seems ideal for this strategy especially as such a small proportion of officers working are out and about if published statistics are to be believed. Policing is mainly a paper chase (or computer chase) and administration.
You would think so wouldn't you? Yet the stated aim of the Goverment is to get cops out of the backroom roles.
mildred +1
What we are seeing, that a lot of people seem to be willfully ignoring, is the premeditated and systematic dismantling of the state as we know it. Its main functions - Health, Education, Policing are being primed, ready to be handed lock, stock and barrel, to the Tories friends in the private sector. So they can then ruthlessly exploit essential services to benefit themselves handsomely.
And once its done, it'll be irreversible. People need to wake the **** up! And fast!