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What happened in London last night is presumed to be the work of crisis actors
What has happened to you?
What happened in London last night is presumed to be the work of crisis actors and nothing to do with the Freedom Convoy.
On what is that presumption based?
I was part of one convoy on Sunday that headed for the M25 for a circuit of the motorway. Plenty of plod around cos they knew it was happening. It was amazing to get support from people on motorway bridges with their banners.
What happened in London last night is presumed to be the work of crisis actors and nothing to do with the Freedom Convoy.
My first reaction was too harsh maybe.
You are (probably) involved in some peaceful protests, though many on here disagree with your view.
Do not be surprised thst within the wider organisation, or coming in from outside and using it as a cover, are people with a "less lawful" view on how and what to protest.
"Crisis actor"?
https://twitter.com/Benjwestwood/status/1490798670501056516?s=20&t=HjgM3M_PpJZbiWeYlNmbow
What happened in London last night is presumed to be the work of crisis actors and nothing to do with the Freedom Convoy.
This is a sign of someone who is so far gone they're coming back round the other way.
"Crisis actors" is a smear used by people such as Alex Jones, who accused the parents of the slaughtered children at Sandy Hook of being paid actors.
If you genuinely believe there's some shadowy cabal paying people to act like mindless idiots to further some "deep state" agenda, then I'd get some professional help if I were you.
What happened in London last night is presumed to be the work of crisis actors and nothing to do with the Freedom Convoy.
Have a word with yourself!
Spouting conspiracy theory bullshit like this makes you just as bad as them.
The mods on here should be getting the ban hammer out to stop the spread of this kind of nonsense.
What has happened to you?
AFAICS she had some health issues that unfortunately the NHS weren't much help with (CFS/ME type stuff - I remember because I am a fellow sufferer), which led her into looking for answers in alternative medicine, which then led to her going down a full on rabbit hole into creepy/unhinged anti-vaxx, anti-science conspiratorial type circles that also involve some pretty sinister far-right figures. Pretty sad really but a textbook example of how it can happen.
Grum has it for the history as far as I recall.
I can't really see how crisis actors would fit into this scenario...
Agent provocateurs however are a well known tactic used by Police and Intelligence agencies to derail political protest
There's a lot to unpick here. The OP of this is a long standing forumite for previous good character, so I'll moderate my responses accordingly
Nope, this was part of a UK wide Freedom Convoy that was taking place over the weekend. Also, Europe was doing the same with supporters descending on their respective capital cities. All were showing support for the Canadian truckers. This coming weekend sees EU truckers descending on Brussels.
This is about vaccine mandates. I've seen posts of yours over the last year or so that refer to the pandemic as "plandemic". I'm not sure if you believe covid to be a hoax, or if you used to believe that covid is a hoax and now you simply feel that a mandated vaccination is an affront to your personal liberties, or even if you simply feel that you've had enough of the pandemic (as have most of us) and simply want to get back to normal and perhaps haven't considered that vulnerable people will pay the price for your liberties.
Are you comfortable that a large sum of the money raised by the Canadian truckers' GoFundMe page can be traced directly to well funded far-right organisations? That would be a red flag to me.
Whatever way, I'm afraid that we simply can't wish away a virus that's killed 175,000 people in the UK - as you probably know, this includes two members of my family and I am a wee bit touchy about this.
I was part of one convoy on Sunday that headed for the M25 for a circuit of the motorway. Plenty of plod around cos they knew it was happening. It was amazing to get support from people on motorway bridges with their banners.
We don't have vaccine passports (although we will soon need to present an actual passport in order to be able to vote, but that's another issue entirely), nor do we have mask restrictions. We've got probably the most libertarian government in Europe, so I don't understand the need for this sort of protest.
Question - how do you feel about Insulate Britain and Extinction Rebellion? Would you view their actions as legitimate, or do you have the opinion that the climate crisis is fabricated too?
What happened in London last night is presumed to be the work of crisis actors and nothing to do with the Freedom Convoy.
The term "crisis actor" is a red flag here - it was popularised by the shock jock Alex Jones, who opined that the Sandy Hook shootings never happened and that the event was staged. Survivors of school shootings have been harassed in the street Marjorie Taylor Greene here harassing a Parkland shooting survivor.
"crisis actor" is another far-right trope that makes for uncomfortable reading from a fellow forumite.
Moreover, we've identified the person filming and heckling Keir Starmer yesterday - one William Coleshill. We know that he's anti-vax and that he has previously claimed to carry a knife. Are you concerned that someone like Coleshill who has previous for contemptible behaviour harassed the leader of the opposition last night and that since 2016, two MPs have been murdered by extremists?
Or is it that you feel that the event was somehow staged by Keir Starmer? If so, to what end?
AFAICS she had some health issues that unfortunately the NHS weren’t much help with (CFS/ME type stuff – I remember because I am a fellow sufferer)
Genuinely, I'm very sorry to read this.
health issues that unfortunately the NHS weren’t much help with (CFS/ME type stuff – I remember because I am a fellow sufferer)
For what it's worth I can fully sympathize; my dad has been a sufferer for many years; in his case, it's almost certainly down to organophosphate poisoning; for some reason though, the government chose not to pursue the approx 30,000 cases of ill health due to the sheep dip that they ruled mandatory at the time
As the Guardian revealed last year, at least 500 farmers across the UK were left with debilitating health problems after using organophosphate-based (OP) chemicals to protect their sheep against parasites, under the government’s compulsory dipping programme which ran up until 1992.
Based on a more recently released survey, campaigners estimate more than 30,000 were likely to have suffered some form of ill health from using OP dips.
It is now known that officials had evidence of the danger that using the chemical was having on farmers’, their wives, children and even the local officials ensuring that sheep were properly dipped, yet at the time ministers publicly rebuked farmers not using it.
Some figures who have spoken very prominently about other cases of organophosphate poisoning had surprisingly little to say when it came to HM Government's involvement in such matters
https://twitter.com/OldTomYoung/status/1083391421699248133
Pff, and you call us sheeple...
News to me, though I suppose there's a lot of folk on the lam(b) when it comes to the truth
Grum summed up the poster's situation very well, as I see it, a long time and lovely forumite who had a bad experience and found "help" or "comfort" at the top of a slippery slope.
Shows how easy it is, and how all the poi ta that PJM has raised are still not enough to shine a light on the much darker forces influencing those circles.
Whilst Alex Jones and David Icke are 2 clear examples, there’s evidence to suggest more credible sources such as Carole Cadwalladr and Peter Jukes are not all they seem
Curious - re Peter Jukes, the only "evidence" that I've seen is from Jay Beecher, who is hardly a reliable source. his claims about Jukes were echoed by James Melville, who subsequently apologised and paid Jukes' legal costs.. It's fair to say that the alt-right often weaponise accusations of paedophilia and the allegations made by Jay Beecher against Peter Jukes have thus far not been followed up by the police.
Carole Cadwalladr has been on the receiving end of targeted abuse on social media, but again I cannot see anywhere that she is "not what she seems to be" (paraphrased).
Some citations would be a good place to start.
the alt-right often weaponise accusations of paedophilia
"Have you stopped beating your wife..." Stock in trade for the peddlers of grift and whisperers of nonsense that support them
Keep it on topic JHJ.
I was unaware of Jay Beecher's allegations against Peter Jukes; my main concern is that whilst on the face of it both Jukes and Carole Cadwalladr are investigative journalists, exposing scandal, when it comes to it, they generally promote the establishment narrative.
See also another of Peter Juke's pals Tom Watson, which of course leads us back to Exaro News
Some citations would be a good place to start.
....
No further questions, your honour.
Carole Cadwalladr are investigative journalists, exposing scandal, when it comes to it, they generally promote the establishment narrative.
You are aware that Carole Cadwalladr exposed Cambridge Analytica which got the current government into power and was a major contributing factor behind the Brexit leave campaign? I hardly think she could be described as 'promoting the establishment narrative' when she did so much to shine a light on the goings on of the current bunch in power!!
I have said this before - but can we please not pile on cinnamongirl. It really doesn't help, anybody. Thanks!
I have said this before – but can we please not pile on cinnamongirl
Stop spreading absolute shit then.
So the defense of this...
Whilst Alex Jones and David Icke are 2 clear examples, there’s evidence to suggest more credible sources such as Carole Cadwalladr and Peter Jukes are not all they seem
... is this...
my main concern is that whilst on the face of it both Jukes and Carole Cadwalladr are investigative journalists, exposing scandal, when it comes to it, they generally promote the establishment narrative.
Ok, gotcha. I don't agree, but if that's as weak as that argument is, I'm not going to waste any more time on it.
hels
Free Member
I have said this before – but can we please not pile on cinnamongirl. It really doesn’t help, anybody. Thanks!
Absolutely not intending to pile on the person, but by posting quite controversial points surely a rebuttal is allowed?
I mean, alleging the use of 'crisis actors' at all, let alone in this context, is pretty 'out there' and deserving of a response, surely?
Absolutely not intending to pile on the person, but by posting quite controversial points surely a rebuttal is allowed?
I mean, alleging the use of ‘crisis actors’ at all, let alone in this context, is pretty ‘out there’ and deserving of a response, surely?
I dont want to scare her off, because I'm more interested in hearing about the Freedom Convoy from someone who was part of it, rather than a potentially biased news story.
Mainly, what are the freedoms that people want, but also how blocking/obstructing major roads is going to acheive this.
All very easy for folk who aren't under the constant threat of an eager ban hammer
Keep it on topic JHJ.
Suffice to say, the 1st time I heard of Bellingcat in it's infancy, was via Tom Watson...
https://twitter.com/tom_watson/status/502934865659318273
back then, I was well impressed by Watson's apparent gusto and willingness to take on the status quo, not only in terms of apparently wanting to get to the bottom of 'allegations of a paedophile ring leading all the way to no 10' but also fresh from his work putting a chink in the armour of the Murdoch Empire, with his trusty sidekick, Peter Jukes...
https://twitter.com/nw_nicholas/status/1101176747498844169
That'd be the same Bellingcat that continually claimed to be THE source for all things relating to the Syrian Conflict, whilst failing to mention the source of the arms flooding into the region...
No big surprise there though
https://twitter.com/MarkAmesExiled/status/1043866370277036033
Cadwalldr can often be found singing Bellingcat's praises, no big surprise given her links to the Integrity Initiative.
https://twitter.com/kennardmatt/status/1484103609738530817
In essence, I was previously impressed by the work of Tom Watson, Peter Jukes and Carole Cadwalladr, however, over time, their actions revealed they were far from trustworthy; 'controlled opposition' if you will.
But back on topic... do I condone the actions of a bunch of misguided souls, stirred into action by relentless propaganda?
Hell no, and those conspiraloons mentioned at the start of the thread don't sound too savoury either...
but can we please not pile on cinnamongirl. It really doesn’t help, anybody.
A bit late for that....
crisis actors
With regard to the impact of one person's conspiracy theory on another, I'm going to give a real example of something that happened on this forum to me last week. This is me:
Well, I must come from an incredibly unlucky family then – as posted before I lost my uncle in May ’20 and my mum just before xmas ’20 from Covid. An old school friend of mine has been in charge of an ICU in Leicester, he’s been telling me about the impact that Covid has had on him and the people around him.
Just a few posts later, an account which was activated here on the 5th December 2021 and which has never once posted anything vaguely off road cycling related retorts with this:
I can’t help but think that this thread and the much wider debate in general would be better served if the following phrases were banned wholesale across the country:
– My [insert family related noun here] died of Covid
When challenged by another forumite who posted this:
...but you post this (below), knowing that a contributor to this thread has lost 2 members of his family to Covid. It’s one of the most deliberately nasty comments I’ve seen posted on this thread or the other.
Judetheobscure replied with this:
WHAT?
Are you serious? Everyone on this forum has lost someone to something! I was simply making the point that a) a death from Covid is like all other deaths – tragic and deeply sadenning for those who were close to the individual
Now, no apology was forthcoming, but Jude's post was edited to remove the offensive (to me) reference. That's it. I am not trying to revisit a closed thread, but certain accounts were rather callous in their responses to me and others.
I've several examples of incidents where people have piled on abuse at me on twitter for tweeting that I'd lost family to covid. Moreover, last Saturday, I was enjoying a pint with a friend in my local when a bloke my friend knew walked up and proceeded to hijack the conversation. He ended up telling me that "only 18,000 people have actually died from covid you know". I explained what I'd quoted in the first paragraph - that I've lost a parent and an uncle to it.
"Oh really, did they have any underlying health problems?"
At this point, I explained that I was done with the conversation removed myself from the conversation and went elsewhere in the pub.
What happened next truly upset me - the bloke followed me and kept repeating his assertion at me. I asked him several times to go away and to leave me alone, but he didn't stop until I made it clear to him that if he said one more word to me, I'd put him on the floor.
The point that I'm trying to make here is that the loss of people close to me has had a profound effect - I've just finished a three month course of counselling. I'm trying to put pieces of my life and career back together, it's really not easy. I know that I'm not the only one on this forum who has lost loved one's to covid or who has dealt with or continues to deal with the fallout from long-covid. I'm truly sorry for everyone who has had to go through it.
To summarise - people's need to believe in conspiracy theories can have real-world consequences. Sometimes peoples' empathy goes right out of the window because their innate need to voice something controversial overrides their ability to understand that to do so will cause distress. Unfortunately, in so many ways this continues to happen in virtually every topical event, from the climate crisis to economics - "the experts are all wrong, here's what I saw on YouTube" being the default retort. And I'm bloody tired of it.
They’ve just been interviewing a few of the Alpha Bellends Assemble fruitloops on channel 4 news, including (somewhat inevitably) Piers Corbyn.
They ended up arguing amongst themselves about which particular conspiracy theory it was they were advocating today, but it’s just the usual QAnon bullshit
They should just throw the lot of them into a soft play area for their own protection
@PJM1974 that is despicable behaviour, and a hard read, I can only imagine how awful it must have been to experience it for real. The on forum behaviour directed at you is pretty scummy too. Some people just have a complete empathy vaccum.
@PJM1974 - that’s absolutely ridiculous.
I’m not sure I’d have managed to be as restrained as you in the same situation
I would have lost my shit at the 'underlying health issues' bit. As if that somehow makes them lesser people. 🤬
So sorry this happened to you. Some people's wiring has gone seriously wrong in the last couple of years.
@PJM1974, that's dreadful, I really don't know if I'd have remained as calm as you. That's shocking.
What they all said.
There's a time and a place, "I've recently lost family members" is perhaps not the opportune moment for someone else to be forcing an argument.
Sorry dude, that's horrific.
I was really hoping to visit Finland one day.
Thanks all, I genuinely appreciate that.
I understand why some individuals latch on to questionable theories, i have an old friend who has gone completely off piste.
He is in his 50s divorced, no kids or much family, he lives in rural isolation (by choice) he has never worked in public or private sector organisations and has limited colleagues and friends, he has a lot of time on his hands and exists on Facebook... i think there are many like him and these theories provide community, a common cause, something to get behind, something that provides them with a perceived knowledge/value that they may not have found elsewhere.
That and the fact he's gone ****ing mad.
Forgot to say i have been keeping an eye on him and did buy him a bump hat for Christmas- which he did laugh about... well i think it was laughing
I understand why some individuals latch on to questionable theories, i have an old friend who has gone completely off piste.
It does happen, I've friends who are well educated and qualified in their respective fields who have their quirky views as it were, but these sorts of things always used to be relatively harmless. I've never been followed around my local by a UFO nut for example, because for the most part there used to be some self-awareness about fringe beliefs etc.
i think there are many like him and these theories provide community, a common cause, something to get behind, something that provides them with a perceived knowledge/value that they may not have found elsewhere.
Indeed. It's a real shame that our schools don't teach critical thinking.
I was listening to a podcast with an expert in conspiracy theory beliefs etc and he reckons he could fairly quickly identify at least one conspiracy-type unsubstantiated belief in pretty much anyone - even the most rational, evidence-based, skeptical (in the true sense) sciencey types.
Not me though obviously 🙂
I always work on the principle that there’s no way on earth that the people generally accused of complex conspiracies are anywhere near intelligent or competent enough to actually pull off what they’re being accused of.
I'm a teacher. My job is to help children understand 'truth'. I teach biology, a mostly factual subject with a lot of ethics involved at certain points.
A significant part of my role is to try to modify pre-conceived ideas that the students consider to be the truth. In general pupils believe their parents over their teachers, so attitudes met at home are the norm so thus become truth.
It takes a huge amount of work to modify pre-conceived and inherited ideas in children. To do so successfully is massively difficult unless the person is open to new ideas.
To change the attitudes of some people will be enormously difficult. It will be akin to trying to persuade me that dinosaurs didn't exist.
people’s need to believe in conspiracy theories can have real-world consequences
Absolutely this. It's easy to write it off as fringe nutters and wierdos, but once they start to gather pace they become a different beast entirely.
A recent poll showed that >40% of American's don't believe that Biden legitimately won the election. How on earth is America coming back from that?
Every time somebody repeats something that's objectively false, the truth is diminished. What's going to happen when 51% of Americans believe something equally stupid/wrong?
It’s a real shame that our schools don’t teach critical thinking.
Yes - this is what strikes me: the people believing this shite often haven't thought about it beyond what's on the very surface - often a single question/counterpoint is enough to completely up-end the logic of what they are saying. They are obviously very passionate about this, but they don't really seem to have spent more than about 5 minutes actually thinking about it themselves.
Personally, the most interesting question is: "why do you want to believe that?". The US stuff is easy to understand - there are lots of fairly obvious reasons why a certain chunk of US society doesn't want to believe that the Dems legitimately won. But the covid stuff is less obvious - why do people want to believe that "only" 18,000 people have died? Is it just the standard reasons that people believe in conspiracies..... or are they so angry about the restrictions that they have latched-on to this bullshit to legitimise their anger (rather than it just being "but I don't WANT to wear a mask!")?
Sorry about your experience PJM1974 - I would have lost my rag completely
I always work on the principle that there’s no way on earth that the people generally accused of complex conspiracies are anywhere near intelligent or competent enough to actually pull off what they’re being accused of.
This is very true, however the problem is Watergate. Whilst ultimately they were caught out the sheer scale and complexity of the conspiracy, involving highly intelligent and competent people, was staggering.
I doubt that we would be quite so awash with conspiracy theories today if it wasn't for Watergate. Especially originating from the United States.
Personally, the most interesting question is: “why do you want to believe that?”
There's often a hefty chunk of narcissism involved IMO. Doesn't necessarily matter what the conspiracy theory is they just like the perceived kudos of having special secret knowledge that the mass of sheeple don't have access to or can't understand.
It staggers me how people fall for it. I've had my moments on social media when I've (in good faith) challenged someone's opinion and have asked them to not only give evidence, but to explain how they understand it. 90% of the time I'm redirected to the account of some crypto-bro, a meme or a YouTube vid.
And there's always the Chewbacca defence.
There’s often a hefty chunk of narcissism involved IMO. Doesn’t necessarily matter what the conspiracy theory is they just like the perceived kudos of having special secret knowledge that the mass of sheeple don’t have access to or can’t understand.
Yes, and I'm wondering whether this is dependent on how complex (or confronting) the reality of the situation is. ie: are people more inclined to believe conspiracy theories in response to a more complex or confronting reality?
hefty chunk of narcissism involved IMO.
Harsh and imo unfair. I believe that it is more a case of it creating a feeling of empowerment to people who otherwise feel, often quite rightly, powerless.
Yes it makes them feel good about themselves but often because they find themselves through no fault of their own in shit situations.
Harsh and imo unfair. I believe that it is more a case of it creating a feeling of empowerment to people who otherwise feel, often quite rightly, powerless.
Yes it makes them feel good about themselves but often because they find themselves, through no fault of their own, in shit situations.
I agree that more people are probably drawn-in for the reasons you mention, but I think both things can be true. I'm sure there are lots of reasons to people to buy-in to alternative facts/realities.
Often the facts speak for themselves... however, by sticking to the facts, you can find yourself in an alternate reality.
There are many stories the media will never investigate, whether for legal, financial or political reasons.
In many instances, even when stories are investigated, there are all sorts of goings on behind the scenes when folk have the wealth to bring in reputation management services who will plant false info and misdirect for a fee.
But the covid stuff is less obvious – why do people want to believe that “only” 18,000 people have died?
I have seen people arguing and I agree with them thats its one of the easier ones to explain. We have had decades or even centuries of humanity going against nature and "winning" (so long as you ignore inconvenient details) but here is one which really slaps us in the face. Its about feeling small in the face of nature and not wanting to admit it. Therefore some people chose the its a fake somehow and that a subset of humanity has created it for gain vs all of us being victims to some level or another.
It comes down to agency either at an individual or species level. Some feel happier if the control is at the individual level as opposed to just chance even when as a species we can tilt it in our favour.
There are many stories the media will never investigate, whether for legal, financial or political reasons.
All conspiracy stories are worth investigating. They sell and provide huge benefits to those who break the stories. Over 40 years later the Washington Post still receives credit for its tireless investigation of Watergate. The Guardian newspaper has massively benefited by investigating conspiracies such as those involving brown paper envelopes.
Obviously investigating baseless theories full of obvious unscientific bullshit is however a waste of time. Although the Sunday Sport did for a while exploit a niche which no one else could be bothered with.
Harsh and imo unfair. I believe that it is more a case of it creating a feeling of empowerment to people who otherwise feel, often quite rightly, powerless.
I have a lot of sympathy with this view - New Scientist
Worth a read.
It refers to two different types of narcissism: grandiose and vulnerable.
It definitely seems likely that the uptake of conspiratorial thinking among the 'wellness community' is aided by narcissistic tendencies IMO.
As above I think there's several different routes into it. There was a woman who was on TV ranting madly about q anon stuff who now realises how sucked in she was - she was a successful person and hadn't undergone any traumas or great life challenges I don't think.
A recent poll showed that >40% of American’s don’t believe that Biden legitimately won the election. How on earth is America coming back from that?
Whoops. They got you hook, line and sinker with that one bafink 😛
I like the idea of introducing a critical thinking subject into the school syllabus. It was very much the premise of my undergrad days ... but it also takes mental energy. Another problem is that i see some people i know that are highly educated (eg a former meteorologist/BBC weather presenter I studied with) claiming that they are critical thinkers and still coming up with arsehattery. Could be some logic to the narcisist theory in that case, actually.
It definitely seems likely that the uptake of conspiratorial thinking among the ‘wellness community’ is aided by narcissistic tendencies IMO.
Me from 2019 is still staggered that someone would shove a jade egg up their fadge on the advice of a an "Actress, businesswoman and singer" who appears to have no qualifications in the field of gynecology, yet Dr Jennifer Gunter gets a lot of bad press and some weapons grade word salad in response.
I only know a couple of anti-vaxxers and they’re both the kind of people who would also likely believe you can cure cancer with green tea and yoga if someone on YouTube told them so
That Goop article is (unsurprisingly) absolute cobblers! But it’s very dangerous cobblers as it’s just selling some bollocks woo-woo disinformation. I’d be interested in seeing the professional qualifications of ‘our doctors’ that they refer too.
There seems to be a whole world of gullible half-wits out there and plenty of charlatans and snake oil salesmen ready to exploit them
We have had decades or even centuries of humanity going against nature and “winning” (so long as you ignore inconvenient details) but here is one which really slaps us in the face. Its about feeling small in the face of nature and not wanting to admit it. Therefore some people chose the its a fake somehow and that a subset of humanity has created it for gain vs all of us being victims to some level or another.
Theres seems to be some of that going on. Of the two (huge sample size here) Anti Vaxxers I know well enough to visit at home. They both had a real problem feeling small in existence, whereas I found the unfathomable scale of things to be a positive thing. We’d been watching that Brian fella droning on about space on TV.
It was all a bit “no, I mean something more than that”
kind of people who would also likely believe you can cure cancer with green tea
One of the anti vaxxers I know believes grape juice will cure late stage Pancreatic Cancer, to which I lost a friend last year.
For the, actually fairly reasonable debate above about “why people believe” I’m not sure you can pin it down to x y or z. Some of it just seems to be chance of circumstance.
A lot of people are very gullible, easily led, can't be bothered to look very deep into anything.
Governments in democracies rely on this to exist, just think if the whole population thought about what is going on, who is doing what and when and thinking about how bad that is for them/society and what other options would be better. People could do that or they could just read some posts on Facebook and go with that.
Then you have the gullible mixed with other issues where for whatever reason they want to believe in things that don't hold up to 10 seconds of actual thinking about.
The group that harassed Starmer were shouting about Saville as they already knew about how Starmer didn't prosecute Saville because Starmer is all part of the massive paedophile ring that all people in power are part of but the have no proof or evidence of that, obviously. It is for others to disprove what they believe.
I know three anti vaccers, coincidentally they also believe crystals cure illnesses and have 'qualifications' in herbal medicine.
All three also have rather nice businesses catering to the esoteric end of the healing spectrum.
Sadly, they also impose their beliefs on some of my favourite people. 😔
It's a lifestyle choice, like singlespeeding.
It’s a lifestyle choice, like singlespeeding.
In that respect isn’t pretty much everything a ‘lifestyle choice’? From pork-product militants to German car drivers? From committed vegetarians to cargo-bike users ? Weekend Prosecco binge-life to Fiat 500-polishers? Beefatarians to rastafarians? Keep fit fanataics to smokers and tokers? Internet/phone-addicts and workaholics? Fat nationalists, fit rationalists?
At what point does (say) a cyclist become a ‘fanatic’? I was marked as such simply for being the only employee who cycled to work. I didn't have special cycling clothes or anything. Just marked as ‘crazy/fanatic’ for cycling to work. I realise that if instead I’d lived in Holland I wouldn't have been thought of as crazy or fanatical. I also think that having a singlespeed can be fanatical fashion thing or simply a simple bike choice. ( I’m in the latter camp, have no tattoos - but like feeling like I’m riding a lighter, bombproof bike with no faff )
‘
Is it about a feeling of personal power and control as well? Very often the ones I speak to on Twitter present in a "YOU don't know the truth but I do, you'll be sorry one day" kind of way. I don't think they wilfully choose to believe that, say, the covid vaccines will give you AIDS, but once you've had the seeds of doubt sown and you doubt tje science, is it empowering to think you've dodged a bullet and possess knowledge that all the sheeple are ignoring?
I doubt that we would be quite so awash with conspiracy theories today if it wasn’t for Watergate
the Illuminati conspiracy theory has been trundling along in various forms since the French Revolution - It begins as a conservative backlash against the revolutionaries, morphed a bit with inclusion of the protocol of the Elders of Zion, collected a couple of German invasion scares in the early 20thC. Gains a whole new audience with the communist witch hunts in the 50's and probably reached all our dads with a now infamous Playboy short story in the 60's that somehow became; rather than a forgotten work of fiction, the founding text of the New World Order that we all know and love today.
I think people are open to them as they don't rely on evidence or understanding but rather faith or belief, we all "know" that secretive individuals exists in organisations and to speculate on their activities that relies ultimately on bad extrapolation of inbuilt biases like our man JHJ with his conjunction fallacies is easier and more interesting and makes more sense in a world that's ultimately chaotic and filled with people in positions of responsibility generally making terrible decisions because they're human as well, and subject to all the same inbuilt biases and fallacies that the rest of us are.
and more interesting
Thats a big part of the problem. The real inequality and corruption is normalised and boring, political funding means the wealthiest few percent get a greater control of politics than the majority and they use it for their benefit. It is a much more interesting and exciting story to sell that there is a secret baby eating inner cabul of lizards controlling mankind.
Gah edit window + the site seems to be broken again and randomly refreshes, wiping out half my post. Hello 2018.
I think my rambletrain of thought was looking to terminate at the No True Scotsman Terminus.
IMO what distinguishes cultic activties/behaviours from ‘lifestyle choices’ is twofold.
1. A cult is normally part of an ‘us vs them’ narrative that is (fair to say) not steeped in humour. It can’t laugh at itself. It looks for ways to call non-adherents ‘lost’ or ‘sheep’ or ‘insane’. You don’t often tend to get sausage-roll addicts doing that. Neither singlespeeders. Fixie-riders…otoh 😉
2. A cult is defined from the inside out (us vs them/them vs us) yet will never of course refer to itself as a ‘cult’. This is problematic by the example I gave as a lone cycle-commuter. What if I had found/teamed up with another employee cycle-commuter for company on the ride in? Like people sharing a car to work? Then we’d have been known by all the drivers as the ‘odd couple’ or somesuch. I suppose over the years I’ve learned/been taught to identify as a 1-man ‘out-group’.
This is interesting as it may give me some insight into cult-adherents.
Being an ‘out group’ is arguably more than a lifestyle choice. From what I’ve seen of these ‘freedom’ catch-all protests is a hodge-podge of out-groups and fringe-interests uniting in a bid to ‘out-group’ all of the rest of us? Only *they* have the answers. We are all ‘sheep’ etc. Cousin of mine has gone right down the rabbit-hole (near tip of that pyramid) and they are truly entrenched. They walked away from their whole family, even from their elderly parents. Of course there was something ‘amiss’ with them (lonely, disenchanted) before they found their way to the many conspiracies online. I assume via the ‘redpill’ route. And this is now their entire life. If you can call it that. I haven’t tried to intervene. My experience with such characters online = ‘mega-sensitive’. I think any attempt at intervention just sends them deeper into the cave. As does debunking their claims. It’s essentially anti-science. Science/rationalism works by proving itself wrong, by disproving it’s theories again and again and again until something sticks. Conspiracy cults operate by ‘never ever being wrong’. It’s egotism/narcissism at work. Not all are likely suffering from narcissism, of course, but I’d venture that most are incredibly over-sensitive and averse to their claims being challenged/being shown to be mistaken.
I’ve never been followed around my local by a UFO nut for example, because for the most part there used to be some self-awareness about fringe beliefs etc.
A major difference there is that Covid has led to restrictions that directly affect our lives - unless you live in Nevada I can't think of any differences supposed UFO coverups might make to our day-to-day living. Which doesn't in any way excuse the behaviour of that particular **** in the pub, but does (at least to my mind) explain it a bit.
It is a much more interesting and exciting story to sell that there is a secret baby eating inner cabul of lizards controlling mankind.
Yup. There was an extent to which all the qanon stuff was just a big immersive crime fiction roleplay experience. LARPing as they would put it. The way it works with the 'drops' kept people hooked wanting to know what happens next.
Look at the actual capital riots in the US. Sure there were hardcore anti-government extremists involved but there seemed a greater number of people who just wanted a jolly day out playing at insurrection and to get some content for their vlogs etc. The fact that this was something with real world consequences seems to have been lost on many of them.
The real inequality and corruption is normalised and boring, political funding means the wealthiest few percent get a greater control of politics than the majority and they use it for their benefit.
Yes, we're all happy to read and agree that the Roman aristocracy or Egyptian royalty exploited their populations, but us sophisticates in the 21st Century? We're to clever for all that aren't we? It's a sad truth that human society hasn't really changed all that much that folks of over 4000 years ago wouldn't be unfamiliar with. Or that we have noble savage stories as a backlash to Indigenous criticism of colonialist or mercantile lifestyles.
We tell ourselves lies in order to feel better about it.
Indeed. It’s a real shame that our schools don’t teach critical thinking.
It was in my day. In history. (compulsory years 7-9 in my school). Analysing and comparing sources, asking why they differ and what the purpose of them is.
Didn't matter whether the topic was Sufferagettes, Nazis or the Vietcong.
As always, those who needed it, didn't listen.
the Illuminati conspiracy theory has been trundling along in various forms since the French Revolution – It begins as a conservative backlash against the revolutionaries, morphed a bit with inclusion of the protocol of the Elders of Zion, collected a couple of German invasion scares in the early 20thC. Gains a whole new audience with the communist witch hunts in the 50’s and probably reached all our dads with a now infamous Playboy short story in the 60’s that somehow became; rather than a forgotten work of fiction, the founding text of the New World Order that we all know and love today.
I'm sure there were conspiracy theories back in days of the Roman Empire. The question however is why do they appear to have become so much more prevalent in recent times.
IMO it is probably a combination of many factors including a reaction to feelings of powerlessness in liberal democracies, a reaction to genuine conspiracies by governments such as Watergate, and, ironically, far greater and easy access to information.
why do they appear to have become so much more prevalent in recent times.
I honestly don't think they are. The US for instance was properly gripped by the assassination of Lincoln, and by the "escape" of Booth. Books, newspapers, all pretty much awash with stories and tales from conspiracies by Andrew Jackson to become president, faked names for Booth and him living in hiding with the aid of soldiers who collected the bounty for "shooting" him. In 1905 (I think) there was a best seller written by a journalist interviewing a man claiming to be Booth that "explained" it all.
None of this is new under the sun
As COVID-19 begins to wane (at least from the front pages) as sure as eggs is eggs we will see the largest activist/conspiracy momentum directed towards denying climate change emergency, and by extension against any fighting any governments/parties/individual who either advocate or make any changes in response to the climate change emergency.
‘The EUliberalillumijewlizardcommiebankerpaedoelites invented this fake climate change narrative so they could use their AGENDA to take away our precious life fluids and make us slaves who will own nothing and be happy like they planned all along’ #satireisdead
Like in that movie ‘Elysium’. Many no doubt see themselves a Matt Damon character (except instead of the actual movie synopsis where he is fighting for equal access to healthcare and against worker-exploitation, these internet-liberty-pillers will be using a sordid brand of fact-free populist pop-culture to fight against something called ‘soymarxism’ or ‘greencommies’ (I think I read ‘watermelons’?) or somesuch…
When socialised healthcare/medicine has finally been sold off in all but name, and the boat-people/immigrants become extra-numerous due to entire flooded countries and drought, failed crops etc, and most all media consumed is either clickbait infotainment and/or 24hr conspiracy feeds - then will these brave new flag-waving social-media freedom-meme-warriors blame corporate capitalism/consumerism and multinationals? Or will they blame ‘socialism’ ‘foreigners’, and the EU? Or, will they finally be able to look themselves honestly, squarely in the eye, in the mirror, as they drive around in circles?
Have a guess…
(Now I sound like one of them…)
Mark my words…
There was an extent to which all the qanon stuff was just a big immersive crime fiction roleplay experience
I read a really interesting piece that basically suggested that books like Dan Brown's The Da Vinci Code coming along at a time when folks could read his stuff that drew from existing inconsistencies and somewhat closed societies (like the Masons) and check it out for themselves on this new thing called the Internet...and wow! some of this stuff checks out!! Those folks just have continued to apply those same "investigative" methods to other subjects....
In an uncertain, unpredictable, hypocritical, misleading world conspiracy theories offer a 'world view' or ideology that, however lacking in evidence it might be, hangs together with easy answers and provides bonding social capital through group membership.
Once again I can recommend this book, it goes into a lot of detail on the subject, written IIRC by a neuroscientist:
I doubt that we would be quite so awash with conspiracy theories today if it wasn’t for Watergate.
American anti-government sentiment goes far deeper than that, it is built into origin myth of the country. The country needed to be marketed in the 19th and early 20th century and they did this by talking about freedom and independence, which is why it's all part of the American dream. And the corporations that were started took advantage of the same freedoms and lack of regulation. This plays into the second amendment fantasy, even though that was clearly written in a completely different context from today and was not intended for the purposes for which it is being used. Even the Founding Fathers were ideologues, their ideas were framed in the context of pushing back against aristocracy. I don't think they really could conceive of what would happen if a country of 300m people all wanted absolute individual freedom.
So a lot of people take the idea of personal freedom very seriously and bristle whenever any regulation gets handed down to them regardless of how sensible it is. Running a country is really at odds with absolute freedom, but due to the mythic status of the Founding Fathers this is what people fall back on when they are told they have done something wrong. Ironically in many ways because daily life seems to have more petty regulations than it does here. Try parking your car on the wrong side of the road...
The US for instance was properly gripped by the assassination of Lincoln
Well you would expect conspiracy theories as a reaction to the assassination of a political leader, not least because a conspiracy is actually quite likely even if not necessarily true.
However the prevalence of conspiracy theories appears to have grown significantly in recent times and now covers a range of bizarre subjects from alleged fake moon landings to apparently vaccines which contain microchips so that the government can keep a track of where you shop.
Correction
As COVID-19 begins to wane (at least from the front pages) as sure as eggs is eggs we will see the largest activist/conspiracy momentum directed towards denying climate change emergency, and by extension
against anyfighting against any governments/parties/individual who either advocate or make any changes in response to the climate change emergency.
However the prevalence of conspiracy theories appears to have grown significantly in recent times
I think they just reach a wider audience because of the availability of instant information. Folk are aware of the more popular ones, form stuff like JFK and the Moon landings, but Mount Rushmore, Mickelsen Safeguard Complex the KKK and Snapple, they've all had their day in the sun and quietly faded away.. and there's been hundreds.
And let's not forget that the flu pandemic, a century ago, was accompanied by its own conspiracy theory groups. Nothing new under the sun.