[Closed] A conspiracy theory group we should be worried about, Sovereign Citizens.

Biggest threat in the UK just now is far right groups.

Biggest threat in the UK just now is far right groups.

Not sure how that can be known objectively or for certain but there is definitely truth in it. Perhaps it would be wise to try and understand their grievances and maybe see if there’s something we can do to integrate them more effectively into mainstream society.

Oh christ, they're the mob that lawyer (who isn't a lawyer any more) is aligned with, aren't they? Right Said Fred posted one of their videos with her in on Twitter - she was on there for 30 hours trying to defend that nonsense, the breakdown was spectacular and genuinely quite troubling to behold.

Biggest threat in the UK just now is far right groups.

I'm guessing these Sovereign Citizens aren't Lib Dem voters 🤔

Perhaps it would be wise to try and understand their grievances and maybe see if there’s something we can do to integrate them more effectively into mainstream society.

The tricky thing is their intransigence and illogical beliefs.

Perhaps it would be wise to try and understand their grievances and maybe see if there’s something we can do to integrate them more effectively into mainstream society.

That would be a waste of time, money and effort; they were part of mainstream society and are now deluded.

It’s de-radicalisation they need, not legitimisation.

Perhaps it would be wise to try and understand their grievances and maybe see if there’s something we can do to integrate them more effectively into mainstream society.

I fear their lack of any sort of intelligence, the stench of piss from their bed sheets and the fact that their carers won't let them out would be a barrier to meaningful dialogue.

I’m guessing these Sovereign Citizens aren’t Lib Dem voters

Do you think?

The tricky thing is their intransigence and illogical beliefs.

We do it with Islamic extremism; I agree it’s not something that often works but it’s a better strategy than further alienating them (as we found out with islamic extremism)

I fear their lack of any sort of intelligence, the stench of piss from their bed sheets and the fact that their carers won’t let them out would be a barrier to meaningful dialogue.

See that’s exactly the kind of thing guaranteed to get them building bombs and is no better than say the Daily Mail making equally crass remarks about Ismalic extremists dark skin and beards.

Perhaps it would be wise to try and understand their grievances

What if their grievances are a load of stupid nonsense though (spoiler: they are)?

From the BBC article

Alpha Men Assemble

At least they know their target audience 🤣🤣

Sounds like something from Thrudark's website

I stopped one driving one night - sorry, travelling, not driving - and he eventually got to the Magna Carta bollocks. I told him that that was between the King of England and the English barons, 500 years before the Act of Union, so didn’t apply in Scotland. That stumped him 😀. Anyway, after about half an hour his wife told him to stop being a nob because she wanted to get home, so he did.

We do it with Islamic extremism; I agree it’s not something that often works but it’s a better strategy than further alienating them (as we found out with islamic extremism)

What was interesting in the lawyer twitter breakdown was her absolute refusal to accept that she was wrong on any point, but also to refuse to engage at anything other than a very high level - if anyone tried to get into the nitty-gritty or offer a challenge, she'd just say they didn't know what they were on about, her default mode was "attack" (not excluding, from time to time, people who popped in to offer her support, which was pleasing 🙂 ). Extremism is exactly what it was, but I'm not sure how best to address it. Logic was just evaded, every time.

The UK equivalent is the Freemen on the Land movement. They're more interested in pseudo-law than terrorism.  These are the guys that bang about contracts and legal names and so on.

And there are already organisations in the US attempting to de-radicalise Far Right groups already.

They’re called Alpha Men Assemble, supposedly they’re ran by ex-military times and run training sessions in ‘combat camps’.

They’re called Alpha Men Assemble, supposedly they’re ran by ex-military times and run training sessions in ‘combat camps’.

I thought it was because they had tiny penises and couldn't get laid?

From the BBC article

Alpha Men Assemble

They should recruit via the stw motoring threads.

They bought the M5 to a standstill on Saturday.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/m5-chaos-protesters-spark-delays-6608934

What was interesting in the lawyer twitter breakdown was her absolute refusal to accept that she was wrong on any point, but also to refuse to engage at anything other than a very high level

Sadly, this is often the case. As soon as you try to drill into the details, the ad hominems start rolling in. The individual that Pondo refers to is quick to present their legal credentials, but when it came to questioning the minutiae of their facile points, the insults usually start.

The UK equivalent is the Freemen on the Land movement.

I was sat at a wedding table with one of them once.

That was a very long couple of hours.

Perhaps it would be wise to try and understand their grievances and maybe see if there’s something we can do to integrate them more effectively into mainstream society.

Mr Chamberlain, is that you?

Mr Chamberlain, is that you?

*coughs* @RustySpanner - The individual's posting history should be of interest, check it out...

Thick as s**t.

Their desire to be a sovereign person ceases as soon as they need a Police Officer, Solicitor or any other grown up.

Some groups have even held training camps for their members. Images have emerged of black-clad men being coached in "direct action" techniques.

They want to be careful with that kind of thing..... wouldn't want to get declared as a terrorist organization

Perhaps it would be wise to try and understand their grievances and maybe see if there’s something we can do to integrate them more effectively into mainstream society.

They have rejected mainstream society. There's no way to integrate them until they drop their fantasy worldview.

CH4 covered interviewed them.

I bet you won’t see it reported (supported?) on GB News. Which is ironic.

#satireisdead

In similar news: Antivaxxers are happy-angry and triumphantly-disappointed that the EU lost the ‘jab war’

So does this mean that Oliver’s Army are still going to war:

1. against the fight against COVID, or
2. against COVID itself, or
3. against the non-existent COVID (the ‘conspiracy’ of COVID)

or

4. ?

Perhaps it would be wise to try and understand their grievances and maybe see if there’s something we can do to integrate them more effectively into mainstream society.

Mr Chamberlain, is that you?

Actually Rusty, I remember reading an article recently on how they try to help people caught up in conspiracy theism and its about engaging them. To try to break the cycle and get them to see for themselves how ridiculous their beliefs were. Certainly never to attack them, but to show understanding and compassion, and to realize that they have psychological problems.

The methods used are the same as how they deal with people who have become caught up in cult mentality.

conspiracy theism

Is that the one where a supreme-being named ‘God’ set humanity up to fail unless we love him forever and ever? /joke

Certainly never to attack them, but to show understanding and compassion, and to realize that they have psychological problems.

The methods used are the same as how they deal with people who have become caught up in cult mentality.

I’d agree with that. Not always the easiest thing to approach though. I’ve seen a few families ripped apart by conspiracy nuttism.

Once so far down in the hole they will often view any intervention (no matter how kind and soft and genuine) as ‘evidence’ of you the intervener’s

1. ‘Weakness’/sheepitude/kindly stupidity or (They may yet try and save you from the Great Conspiracy)
2. Evil intent masked by ‘fake good-intentions’ (They view you as either evil/in the thrall of evil and a lost cause)

The methods used are the same as how they deal with people who have become caught up in cult mentality.

Cult mentality is exactly what it is. Meanwhile, in the background, who knows who's pulling the strings. 🙁

thegreatape
Free Member

I stopped one driving one night – sorry, travelling, not driving – and he eventually got to the Magna Carta bollocks

This you?

Edited version sovereign citizen meets dog, Magna Carta of little use in the ensuing nibble.

 but to show understanding and compassion

Some conspiracies are not like the others...I agree that you can do that with some folks and let's be honest some conspiracy theories are really just harmless, other's I'm not sure that I'd want to engage with some-one who holds QAnon or New World Order beliefs "honestly" I'd put Sovereign Citizens in the top tier of this chart for instance

Meanwhile, in the background, who knows who’s pulling the strings. 🙁

(Meta) conspiracy-theorists vs anti-conspiracy theorists assemble!

Who is conspiring against-for the conspiracists? Who is unwatching the unwatchers? This isn’t a ‘pyramid’, this is a metaversal, intersected double-inverted boolean fractal, endlessly blooming (and dying) in negative space within an ever-shifting framework of interdependent half-truths, full-truths, partial truths, half-lies, partial-lies and (OK you get the picture)*

‘Hold the hatch, I may be gone for some time…’

* Or, do you?

😀 - but no, my encounter was far more civilised.

The irony of a group defining themselves as "Alpha Men" being populated by a bunch of complete dildos.

That chart is excellent, however I believe there is some truth to the idea that celebrities moisturise with dead baby's foreskins 😳

Edit: yup! https://www.bostonmagazine.com/health/2015/04/14/baby-foreskin-facial-boston-hydrafacial/

The irony of a group defining themselves as “Alpha Men”

The further irony being of course that  the original research on wolves that was used to create the idea of "Alpha men" is in fact (to nobodies great surprise)... a load of horseshit. The "Alpha-dog" phenomenon was seen in captive wolves, go to normal conditions for wolves and the characteristics just aren't there. At all. So a duff behavioral study of an entirely different species gets mangled to produce a swathe of bullshit non existent architype conspiracy grifts to part fools and their money...Compassion indeed needed. (with a side order of laughing and pointing, obvs)

 I believe there is some truth to the idea that celebrities moisturise with dead baby’s foreskins

Given that Paltrow sells a candle that (allegedly) smells like her coochie, I'm prepared, at this point, to believe anything, to whom do I hand over my hard earned?

Some conspiracies are not like the others

Correct, but the point is it is not the conspiracy, and we can shoot the breeze all day over the ins and outs of each and how weird or extreme each is, but an addressing of the individuals caught up in its web.

Like horn guy, where we saw a distinct change in his rhetoric after realizing he'd been duped and the only ass on the line was his own.

s that the one where a supreme-being named ‘God’ set humanity up to fail unless we love him forever and ever? /joke

Yeah, I couldnt remember what the actual word was. It's actually Theologize. Sounded right at the time 😆

nutters gonna nut

WTF? Finland doesn't exist?!?

*googling intensifies*

her absolute refusal to accept that she was wrong on any point, but also to refuse to engage at anything other than a very high level

She could become Prime Minister

 but an addressing of the individuals caught up in its web.

Sure, I agree, the point I was trying to make, is that some-one who believes that say Big Foot or the Loch Ness monster is real is ultimately not really an issue, and these can be largely disproved without doing the holder of the belief any real damage , The further you go up that chart, the more expert the help needs to be, I'd suggest that none of us (or very very few) are competent to tackle someone who holds that QAnon 'drops' are real.

*googling intensifies*

wild, huh?

WTF? Finland doesn’t exist?!?

*googling intensifies

You think you can Google THE TRUTH!.!?!?

(To be be read in high pitched hysterical voice)

with a side order of laughing and pointing

Just be careful. Someone I know 😬 received persistent death-threats and cyberstalking (initially from GB News comment-thread) simply for my I mean their requesting evidence for claims that face-masks don’t affect viral-transmission.

Humour may be necessary in these times, but these aren't often the laughing types. A sense of humour is a wonderful thing, but don’t assume that the angry warring person shares yours.

Yeah, I couldnt remember what the actual word was. It’s actually Theologize.

Theorist/theorise?

nutters gonna nut

Indeed. I’d argue for simply ignoring them. But I read (linked from the OP)

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/joe-mccarron-man-released-from-donegal-hospital-by-anti-vaccine-campaigners-to-be-buried-today-40888273.html

Covid-sceptic Joe McCarron, who was the presenter of Joe’s Wild Atlantic Country Show at Strabane Radio Online, allowed a group to remove him from the intensive care unit at Letterkenny University Hospital in Co Donegal under the pretence that they were “saving his life”.

The 75-year-old refused to listen to doctors who told him he could die. This morning he’ll be buried in a cemetery not far from the home in Dungloe he shared with his grief-stricken wife Una later this morning.

“The family are angry, they are sad, they are shocked at what these reckless people have done. Joe was taken from the hospital, dumped at home and told, ‘there you are Joe, get on with it — good luck’

I believe he was endangered (by the actions of a conspiracy theorist) and died as a result of those actions. That’s a tough call for legal team.

Judge Finnegan again told the accused he strongly recommended getting legal representation.

Mr Mureddu replied: “Absolutely not. I don’t give any consent. I am the king and you are the public servant. https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/news/joe-mccarron-man-released-from-donegal-hospital-by-anti-vaccine-campaigners-to-be-buried-today-40888273.html”

sobering commentary on fb

 

some-one who believes that say Big Foot or the Loch Ness monster is real is ultimately not really an issue, and these can be largely disproved without doing the holder of the belief any real damage

I dunno about that. Surely those are in some cases gateway conspiracy theories into the more sinister stuff.

Everyone wants to be good at something , even it it's being a complete ****.

Wow..... that was..... something.

Apparently there is just sea where we believe Finland is. in the mid 20th Century the russians signed a pact with Japan to pretend that there is land there..... but it's actually a secret bit of sea that the Japanese get to fish in, IN SECRET (because: reasons).

Blah blah, nokia, GPS hacking, Helsinki actually in Russia.

They killed santa! the bastards!!

I always thought the Finland not existing was due to the population of Finland being within the margin of error for the total population of the world.

Looks like that stats joke got well out of hand.

 Surely those are in some cases gateway conspiracy theories into the more sinister stuff.

A very good friend of mine is a well regarded professor of Middle Eastern culture and has written a hugely well received work on the representation of Palestinian people in film. So far so normal: She also believes at a fundamental level that the moon landings were faked, and will not be moved from that belief regardless of the many (sometimes fraught) discussions we've had over the years - we now just both leave it alone. I don't think for a second that she's some conspiracist nutbar, and is to all intents and purposes a fully functioning member of society, but I guess on some level she's open to all sorts. I don't think she needs "an intervention" and is otherwise totally rational.

People are weird.

The Loch Ness Monster not real ?? 😯 Outrageous suggestion.

You'll be telling us next Haggis have four legs all the same length. 😆

You’ll be telling us next Haggis have four legs all the same length.

Ah so you believe that haggis legs are shorter on the upslope. Where as the reality is that haggis have pneumatic legs that adjust to the terrain. It was in fact cruel and sickening experimentation on wild haggis that lead to the development of the dropper post.

sheepitude

I so want to use that word today.....

A very good friend of mine is a well regarded professor of Middle Eastern culture and has written a hugely well received work on the representation of Palestinian people in film

The extent of gaslighting and propaganda we're all subjected to when it comes to the apartheid state of Israel is bound to result in a healthy distrust for media and the warped view of history which is continually being churned out

Does that of itself justify considering the moon landings were faked? Perhaps not, but right or wrong, perhaps your friend is a perfectly reasonable and intelligent person who has seen enough to convince her of that scenario.

Of course, this is a whole different area to the worrying number of extremist groups coming into being as a result of the swathes of misinformation we all wade through on a daily basis; many of these groups tap into the (not unreasonable) discontent at the knowledge you're being lied to and magnify it with all the vigour and passion that has traditionally been the reserve of religion.

^^^ They're back!!! 🙁 Curious timing - makes you think...

I don’t think for a second that she’s some conspiracist nutbar, and is to all intents and purposes a fully functioning member of society, but I guess on some level she’s open to all sorts. I don’t think she needs “an intervention” and is otherwise totally rational.

People are weird.

That's for sure! For me the issue is harm, to themselves or others - to believe in Nessie or fake moon landings is pretty harmless, happened across a chap on Twitter yesterday who advocates drinking urine and, whilst I don't mind what he does with it in his spare time, I also can't imagine he's likely to attract a following (with genuinely foul breath).

But then you get a belief system, like that covid is a conspiracy, that masks are the start of a slow descent into control, that the vaccines will turn you magnetic or give you AIDS (or both!), and you end up with gangs outside vaccination centres and schools, you get anti-vaxxers pulling covid-ridden people out of hospital and causing their deaths, you get people independently refusing vaccines and treatment and dying. At some level, people have a right to refuse treatment - but if it's a decision based on false information, if their decisions put strain on the NHS and other people suffer harm because of it, is that right?

Yesterday's scenes felt more sinister. Like the Sarah Everrard vigil, there were faces there that pop up regularly whenever there are demonstrations that become troubled - matey-boy William Coleshill is one of them. Are we being played, friends...?

This load of cobblers rears its head every few years or so.

It really gained ground during the last financial crisis as there were grifters on FB/YT espousing the FMOL/SC dogma as a way to get out of your debts (i.e. pay them to tell you this load of cobblers, which you then try with your mortgage co/bailiff/judge/policeman, and by the time you realise you've been had, they've got your money).

I've had to deal with a number of these guys over the years and not once has anything any of them put forward had one iota of success. Indeed, it usually made things significantly worse for them (increased court costs, aggravated the judge etc etc).

It died a death in the UK a few years later after one Canadian judge got so annoyed by it he did a full legal and contextual analysis of the arguments in a great judgment - well worth a read if you have the time:

Whilst it's not binding in E&W, the courts can consider persuasive authority from other jurisdictions and Meads rather brought the shutters down on it (at least in the courts) for a while.

It's sheer fantasy and it makes me very cross that there's this small minority who know it's utter toss but peddle it to the credulous who are often very desperate people looking for any lifeline.

the ailment of the modern world, so much misinformation and yet so many without capacity to discern fact from fiction

I also can’t imagine he’s likely to attract a following (with genuinely foul breath

Ah, um, yes. So you'd think. But then again...

I used to watch the 'Auditors' on you tube, mainly just for laughs as they always end up on the receiving end of angry people, or get arrested.

I'm not getting out my car, 2 minutes later they're being dragged out through the window.

Some of them are hilarious. But the bottom line is they're mostly idiots, drawn to the flame.

Should we be worried? At the moment they really are just a bunch of fringe lunatics.

QAnoners and the assorted motley crew of right wing groups in the US has disturbingly been granted some political legitimacy by Rebuplicans. Is anyone anywhere on the serious political spectrum in the UK doing the same for these nutjobs?

I'm not saying its not worth keeping an eye on them, but they are basically just cosplaying compared to their friends across the pond.

Yeah I think lots of the folks who employ the "Freeman on the Land" type bollocks are doing so in courts to either not pay debts or a futile attempts to not slide deeper into debt, and some of them are genuinely fragile and vulnerable  people that should be helped and they've been sucked into it by unscrupulous grifters. The other fringe groups that sometime use the same sorts of tactics that are busting into COVID vaccine centres or coming into my surgery with their leaflets are a different order of things. Jo Cox's death is one of the results of not paying attention to folks who are otherwise off the radar.

Is anyone anywhere on the serious political spectrum in the UK doing the same for these nutjobs?

You like, for example, the leader of our country suggesting that Starmer was in cahoots with paedophiles?

Is anyone anywhere on the serious political spectrum in the UK doing the same for these nutjobs?

You like, for example, the leader of our country suggesting that Starmer was in cahoots with paedophiles?

A slightly extreme example, but I think a better one would be the shift from the perception of UKIP as the headbangers' lunatic fringe when it started, to its aims and ambitions pretty much having been subsumed into the modern Conservative party leaving it pretty much defunct.

One of the issues is the constant need for counter-arguments to be respected. This isn't a pop at the Beeb - I think they do a great job - but more the rise (both here and in the US) of the need for "both sides" of the argument to be represented, even when the "other side" is demonstrably cobblers. It has allowed bonkers arguments to be reframed as the "opposing view" which generates viewer engagement and therefore drives clicks and more views etc.

The amazing thing about monetising conspiracy cultism is the easiness of it. So easy that it writes itself. Ask a writer:

Is the NWO Covid conspiracy running out of steam? That was a big draw. Now what? Well, let’s keep it going a while longer also link it to NWO climate change conspiracy - because that puppy will unravel that recycled paper-roll forever.

Dog-whistling/crumb-dropping just enough to keep on winding up potential insurrectionists/hospital-invaders/weapon-wielding-maniacs (while while keeping own hands and nose clean) is a long-time business strategy for a certain breed of newsreader extremist infotainment grifter.

“You, yes you poor people. THEY want to twke away your heating, your bacon and your car. They want to take away your food, to remove your ability to survive, and also your access to transport. They want you dead. And THEY think that you are going to sit there shivering and starving and stand for that? Did they eve, leave you a chair? What if your chair is deemed to be now ‘unlicensed’. Non carbon-neutral? You think they won’t take your last remaining chair. Think again”

/satire
#isdead

. Is anyone anywhere on the serious political spectrum in the UK doing the same for these nutjobs?

The Starmer/Saville allegation had supposedly reappeared on a UK based Qanon linked site.

Then the Prime Minister gave them some sort of legitimacy and a heap of publicity by repeating them in Parliament. At a time when he was under the cosh for parties.

Seems to have backfired on him

You like, for example, the leader of our country suggesting that Starmer was in cahoots with paedophiles?

Its a fair point but I don't think it granted legitimacy to anything, it just looked absolutely desperate.

It really gained ground during the last financial crisis as there were grifters on FB/YT espousing the FMOL/SC dogma as a way to get out of your debts (i.e. pay them to tell you this load of cobblers, which you then try with your mortgage co/bailiff/judge/policeman, and by the time you realise you’ve been had, they’ve got your money).

It’s sheer fantasy and it makes me very cross that there’s this small minority who know it’s utter toss but peddle it to the credulous who are often very desperate people looking for any lifeline.

Is there cash involved (directly?). I've always assumed it was more like a cult - the people propagating it were doing it for the attention/status rather than to make £.

Certainly a lot of the Alex Jones type grifters actually make a fair wedge of cash from snake oil (or at least falsely advertised) dietary supplements, weirdly enough. Joe Rogan is in on it too.

It's literally 'don't trust mainstream medicine but here I have these magic pills'

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/alex-jones-infowars-store-165-million-1281059/

Behind the Bastards podcast has a good bit on the supplements he hawks on one of their Alex Jones episodes.

I think there's also a lot of grifters out there getting funding from shady right wing 'think tanks' funded by people like the Koch brothers who are keen to discredit scientific authority generally because it suits their pro fossil fuel agenda. #conspiracy

Its a fair point but I don’t think it granted legitimacy to anything, it just looked absolutely desperate.

To a right thinking person who can critically analyse what they hear.

To desperate people desperately using conspiracy theories to make sense of their problems, not so straight forward

It's a sad fact but in the vast majority of cases, anyone who makes it to prominence in these circles is likely spreading every bit as much misinformation as the mainstream media.

Whilst Alex Jones and David Icke are 2 clear examples, there's evidence to suggest more credible sources such as Carole Cadwalladr and Peter Jukes are not all they seem

Then of course we have the very shady outfit behind the once oft cited Exaro News...

It’s a sad fact but in the vast majority of cases, anyone who makes it to prominence in these circles is likely spreading every bit as much misinformation as the mainstream media.

No shit?

Whilst Alex Jones and David Icke are 2 clear examples, there’s evidence to suggest more credible sources such as Carole Cadwalladr and Peter Jukes are not all they seem

Bullshit. 😀

Is there cash involved (directly?). I’ve always assumed it was more like a cult – the people propagating it were doing it for the attention/status rather than to make £.

Definitely when this stuff took off - 2007/8 - there were people who peddled the old "with this one quick trick you can write off your debts" stuff and charged for their advice, claiming to be 'debt advisers'. Shameful.

So now they're shouting at SKS and clearly see themselves as aligned with our great PM, is the inference that this 'Sovereign Citizens' lot are to Bozza, what the 'Proud boys' were (still are?) to Trump?

Cheerleading, reactionary and generally disgruntled (mostly) white men who like to play ninja/soldier in the woods and fantasize about being an Alpha big man during the apocalypse, and probably like Boris because He's apparently working to bring it about...

They bought the M5 to a standstill on Saturday.

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/m5-chaos-protesters-spark-delays-6608934/blockquote >

Nope, this was part of a UK wide Freedom Convoy that was taking place over the weekend. Also, Europe was doing the same with supporters descending on their respective capital cities. All were showing support for the Canadian truckers. This coming weekend sees EU truckers descending on Brussels.

I was part of one convoy on Sunday that headed for the M25 for a circuit of the motorway. Plenty of plod around cos they knew it was happening. It was amazing to get support from people on motorway bridges with their banners.

What happened in London last night is presumed to be the work of crisis actors and nothing to do with the Freedom Convoy.

 

@cookeaa it is sort of looking that way