[Closed] 999, I need an ambulance please... sorry you can't have one!

Hope he's doing ok. It's brutal but every public service is having to prioritise the increasingly limited resources.

Sounds more like no you don't need one than no you can't have one. Hope he heals up soon though.

Indeed, harsh, but sounds like it wasn't an emergency.

I remember a few years back I was driving home from a mates late(ish) on a Saturday night. Saw a group of elderly people flagging cars down, few drive past but I stopped.

Turned out one of the gents had placed his can on a drain cover and it had slipped through causing him to fall into the road and break his hip. Phoned 999 and was told there would be one on the way shortly. 30 minutes later, nothing.

Thankfully had a doctor drove past not long after to help keep an eye on him. But we ended up waiting for nearly 4 hours to get an ambulance for him. Any form of movement caused him excruciating pain. The public services are an utter wreck at the moment and they really need to get their funding looked at.

That’s a quick response marsbarman. This is shocking https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-47146518
Staffing is a bigger issue than money TBH. Everywhere is struggling to recruit with 100k staff vacancies across the NHS with some services critical.

Had an ambulance turn up at my door this eve. Someone had given incorrect address/hoax call-not sure which but a complete waste of an ambulance crews time.

I guess services are stretched and a line has to be drawn somewhere on who they go to.

The purpose of an ambulance in these times of government austerity is to transport someone who needs treatment before they even arrive at a hospital. It sounds like your colleague didn't need this, he just needed someone to take him there. It's harsh, but that's not what an ambulance is for. If he'd had a heart attack then that would be an ambulance job.

I was just shocked at the ladies attitude on the phone, she'd had some pretty hard/cold training and would not be moved on her decision. On arriving at hospital I literally bailed his van on the yellow zigzags outside the door and had to get help to get him out.
Really is shocking that such a great service is in such dire need of help.

They have to prioritize, cant go to everything. Speaking as someone who's spent a few car journeys to hospital with a dislocated shoulder, I don't really know what else an ambulance could've done for me.

I called an ambulance once for a fully broken foot, I too was told “get a taxi”

#whatsNIfor?

As above, if it’s not a life threatening emergency, you’re not alone and you can get to hospital by other means (as in you’re not an elderly PT who has fallen, on their own and can’t get up etc) then there is no need for an ambulance

I drove him in the end

If you'd done that at the outset then he'd have been admitted, seen and treated sooner. What sort of heartless bastard are you?

Lol!

Thing is though I didn't realise it was that bad in the ambulance world, I consider myself a pretty competent first aider and was also worried about his general well being, he was early 60s and and really really struggling with the pain, that's why I made the call. As soon as they saw him at the hospital still sat in the van he was put on gas and air. Anyhoo, they got him sorted, I still don't know however if he made the 6am flight he was due to get the next morning.

At a guess they'd be under extreme demand so looking at asking those that can to use alternative pathways. Now, you may have got an ambulance but given his condition it could be an hour or more.

It's a bit crap yes but ambulance services are under serious pressure daily with increasing workloads while being told to make cuts.

The purpose of an ambulance in these times of government austerity is to transport someone who needs treatment before they even arrive at a hospital.

That's always been their purpose.

I was just shocked at the ladies attitude on the phone, she’d had some pretty hard/cold training and would not be moved on her decision.

Because they can't unless they're a clinicuan.

In the past few years:

My youngest daughter (about 2 yrs old at the time) fell in the park and bit through her tongue length-wise. Blood everywhere, a very distressed small child and my wife with no transport. No ambulance available, waited 55 minutes for a taxi.

A MTBer on my local hill cased a jump and broke his hip. A very unfit and overweight paramedic puffed up the hill - about 300m up the track from the car-park - announced that no ambulances were available and called the fire brigade. The fire crew decided that the only option was the air ambulance. Who’d expect that all the ambulances would be tied up at 10am on a Sunday in April and what a waste of resources!

The bloke who works with my wife. His mother had breathing difficulties. Died a few hours later. No ambulance available in time to help her.

Watch Ambulance on the BBC to see how bad the situation is

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p068q2r2

The most frustrating thing about the OPs situation (as an ambo bod) is we are sent to far less deserving cases in their masses but because of a risk averse algorithm that the (low paid, non clinical) 999 and 111 call takers have to stick to, you’re more likely to get an ambulance if you’re a (for example) panicky 19yo with a sore throat (interpreted as breathing difficulties, neck pain, possible airway compromise) than a stoic 80yo with a deformed fractured limb (interpreted as peripheral limb fracture, no priority symptoms, able to make own way). It’s a shit system, and it won’t change unless society has a wholesale rethink on individual acceptance of risk.

Weirdly though, when I was in Harrogate hospital with my foot issue, I was told on the Thursday eve I’d be going to York to have surgery, and would be going via ambulance the next morning, around 11. When the crew came to take me, they wee surprised at how well I was. ‘Oh yeah I can walk fine’ ‘really? We weren’t expecting you to be conscious....’ turns out the nurses had booked an emergency transfer, as the surgery was to be that morning, so I got everything but blues and twos. The surgery was done on the Saturday, on account of its lack of urgency.

every public service is having to prioritise the increasingly limited resources.

Vote accordingly.

I remember my mum getting an ambulance from her care home, seemingly to cover their backs. I doubt the ambulance will say no to that non emergency (she spent hours waiting as obvs not a genuine emergency, total pita for her too). Seems folk need educating on what 999 is for (albeit I have sympathy for the op).

turns out the nurses had booked an emergency transfer

Abusing/gaming/not understanding the system is not just for the general public, ‘professionals’ do it too. The occasional GP has been know to play this game as well...

Seems folk need educating on what 999 is for

Oh you would be amazed. However, so long as the NHS ambulance service is commissioned and paid by call volume dealt with, there will be no will within the organisation to change.

Abusing/gaming/not understanding the system is not just for the general public, ‘professionals’ do it too. The occasional GP has been know to play this game too…

Yes it can happen.

Last time I called an ambulance I was told one was on the way. 30mins a police car arrived. Policemen takes a quick look at my leg, goes pale and radio's to find out where the ambulance was. He was told there arent any. I was bundled into the police dog van and taken to A&E where as I didnt arrive by ambulance I wasnt looked at for 40mins. A nurse came eventually to "see if I might need a stitch or two" she went pale and offerred me a paracetamol which I refused. 2 mins later I was given morphine and was kept in overnight and operated on in the morning.

The system us failing. Its the same with the police and schools. The government are screwing a population packed with dumb ****s who cant see it.

where as I didnt arrive by ambulance I wasnt looked at for 40mins

Yeah can we kill that myth please. Arriving by ambulance makes no difference to the how quick you are seen. Especially when ambulances are stuck in queues waiting to hand patients over.

Last time I broke my collarbone I drove myself to hospital ! Sometimes you just need to sort it yourself 🙂

When I fainted and banged my head at work my colleagues called 999 while I was unconscious.
I came round and was given the phone. Spoke to call handler, tried to play it down but couldn’t answer her questions about how long I’d been out, etc... so ambo was dispatched. Arrived no more than 15 min later. Was assessed and again, tried to down play it as was pretty embarrassed and anyway my wife is an ACP in the ED so I can get a fairly good assessment of whether I’m actually ill or not at home.
They decided to take me in where we were met with the usual QAH 10 or so ambos queueing outside the ED. (Another thing that doesn’t help availability when they are acting as makeshift ED cubicles because there’s no flow through the hospital so no room in ED.)
Luckily as wife was working I got snuck into a side room and seen although given that they sent me for mri, lumbar puncture etc to look for signs of cerebral oedema I think they were all generally taking things more seriously than I was.
My treatment only slowed down once I was last the ED and into a ward.
Anyway, what I’m getting around to is that they have to go on what’s presented to them and as much as I was obviously ticking more ‘serious’ boxes than I wanted to, other people obviously go the other way and simply by virtue of what they say or how they present end up not ticking the same boxes and get put further down the queue.

bikebouy

#whatsNIfor?

That’s half the problem that causes the issue though isn’t it? The “I pay for this so can demand the service I want” attitude. If we want that level of service we’ll need to pay a lot more that a very occasional taxi.

Had the misfortune of having to call the ambulances on around 8 occasions over the last 20 years due to a family members heart defect that makes them prone to heart attacks

On every occasion I've been thankful they have arrived within 10 minutes.

Sorry to read about your poor experiences but mine is completely opposite.

3 weeks ago a van ploughed into our car straight out of a side rd, his fault he was not looking. I had my elderly frail mother in the passenger seat but my side, the driver, took the impact. Witness phoned the services.

Within 10 mins max fire, ambulance and police came. I could not get out so climbed out the back. Fire moved car and made situation safe, ambo checked my mother over, police questioned and breathalyed both drivers.

Fire and police left, kept my mother in ambo a good hour making sure we were ok. Even gave us a lift home as car was undrivable. Paramedics were brilliant, wrote up a report with advisories for us.

So maybe we were lucky but I thought the services were amasing.

Sad situation.

If this country keeps voting in conservative governments who favour methods to reassert power divides between rich and poor to be as great as possible, enforced austerity etc. then this is what happens to the NHS.

Yeah can we kill that myth please. Arriving by ambulance makes no difference to the how quick you are seen

Whilst I am sure you are correct I'm pretty sure had an ambulance arrived they'd have looked at my leg and I'd have at least been offered pain relief a bit quicker. Once the triage nurse had looked at it I was literally rushed through to a bed given morphine and being prodded by the trauma surgery team bloke within 5mins! As he said though you Achilles seems fine I can actually see it from here!

Had the misfortune of having to call the ambulances on around 8 occasions over the last 20 years due to a family members heart defect that makes them prone to heart attacks

On every occasion I’ve been thankful they have arrived within 10 minutes.

Amen to that, I am not bothered that I was left bleeding at the side of the road if they had more important stuff to do. I just wish the system was funded to treat those who work in it better and have a bit of spare capacity so that they can give people the care they need.

And yes I'd be happy to pay more tax to see it done before anyone asks!

An ambulance was called for me last year. A fast response paramedic turned up first but that took almost an hour and he was surprised that the ambulance wasn’t there. That ambulance turned up over half an hour later. When chatting with the paramedic in the back of the ambulance he was telling me that they had been all over the place that day. I was picked up outside of Beaulieu and they were the other side of Burley when they got the call to come to me. They had been in Newbury earlier that day and based in Bournemouth.
I did require an ambulance as i had an unstable fracture and was lying in the middle of the road.
They are hobbribly stretched and were are just about to make it harder for people to come here and fill the roles.

Whilst I am sure you are correct I’m pretty sure had an ambulance arrived they’d have looked at my leg and I’d have at least been offered pain relief a bit quicker.

Well I wouldn’t bet on it but you’d likely already had pain relief while you waited in the queue.

bikebouy

#whatsNIfor?

Your state pension.

bikebouy

#whatsNIfor?

That’s half the problem that causes the issue though isn’t it? The “I pay for this so can demand the service I want” attitude. If we want that level of service we’ll need to pay a lot more that a very occasional taxi.

I've always stated that I'd be happy to pay more Tax for this very reason.

So, what is NI for? No ones come up with an answer yet?

And I do believe I needed an Ambulance, that's why I called them.

Now thats out of the way, who else would pay more Tax?

....

Yep, I see no one putting up their hands.

Yep, I see no one putting up their hands.

Are you blind? A number of us actually voted for a party that would increase taxes.

All emergency services are stretched. Some are past breaking point , I know as I am one of them. It's not great, low moral for those that have remained in the job. Recruitment is poor, with low starting wages,unsociable hours (who would be a cop for £19500)!!
The odd thing is, unless there is a fundamental change in wages/staff retention then it's not going to get better soon.

Not to turn this thread political, but I'm going to anyway.

This is what happens when you vote Tory.

All public services are stretched to breaking point, such is the ideologically driven desire to burn it all before selling it off to private companies.

bikebouy

#whatsNIfor?

Your state pension.

Incorrect. You need to go check up on that.

So, what is NI for? No ones come up with an answer yet?

^^

Incorrect. You need to go check up on that.

No I don't.

Now thats out of the way, who else would pay more Tax?

*puts hand up*

I already pay more tax.

I voted for a party who campaigned on a platform of making me pay more tax so that lower earning tax payers could pay less and that they would use any excess to fund public services.  They were elected and i pay more willingly

Now thats out of the way, who else would pay more Tax?

Been done on here many a time, the consensus is if was guaranteed to reach the NHS and uncessary costs, targets and polotics were removed then yes.

Yeah you do.

NI is not ring fenced for anything. Its another Tax on earnings.

National Insurance. National Insurance contributions are a tax on earnings paid by employees and <b>employers</b> and help to build your entitlement to certain state benefits, such as the <b>State Pension</b> and <b>Maternity Allowance</b>. Unlike <b>Income Tax</b>, National Insurance is not an annual tax.

The important word in that statement is "such"

So, what is it for?

So, what is NI for? No ones come up with an answer yet?

NI is to disguise and make the figure you actually pay in tax look lower.

Now thats out of the way, who else would pay more Tax?

Me. I voted for it and now I do.

Yeah you do.

Then posts it's used for state pension. 😂

NI is not ring fenced for anything. Its another Tax on earnings.

....but it is ring fenced from general expenditure by the government and is therefore not a tax.

Google “National Insurance Fund” for more details

Here take a look.

https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance/what-national-insurance-is-for

Bikebuoy - I’ve no issue with paying more tax (and like PP and Scotroutes do).

Been done on here many a time, the consensus is if was guaranteed to reach the NHS and uncessary costs, targets and polotics were removed then yes.

That’s where it goes wrong though isn’t it? The NHS doesn’t exist in a vacuum, so if you improve social care you reduce demand, if you invest in wider MH issues you reduce demand, if you find the police better they can afford medical support in the cells rather than dragging people to a&e, and potentially reduce road and alchohol issues that fill the hospitals, whilst better schooling and college funding might mean that some of the social issues that make people most likely to need the NHS are reduced. You can keep expanding the ripples outwards so that even arts projects might have social, MH or employability benefits that mean the NHS benefits indirectly. simple pouring more cash in the top isn’t necessarily the best solution - but of course it’s politically attractive to say vote for us and the NHS will get more cash.

Absolutely agree Poly I'm sure you and I have seen eye to eye on this before.

but of course it’s politically attractive to say vote for us and the NHS will get more cash.

Sad situation.

If this country keeps voting in conservative governments who favour methods to reassert power divides between rich and poor to be as great as possible, enforced austerity etc. then this is what happens to the NHS.

The situation is just as bad in SNPLAND. For example, Aberdeen has 5 ambulances rostered during the day/evening. That figure drops to 2 at 02:00 until 06:00. As a guide each ambulance in Edinburgh is available to approximately 26000 people, in Aberdeen it's closer to 45000. Also bear in mind that inter hospital transfers from Aberdeen to other cities also take vehicles from that total.

 

Back in the 80's we were warned by the government that by the time we reached pensionable age, there would not be enough pension left in the pot to pay us and that we should secure private pensions. Maybe the same is true now for medical health care?

“Maybe the same is true now for medical health care?”

That’s the grand Tory plan , run down the NHS so the masses roll over when they implement privatisation.

Don’t fall for their dogma!!

The original subject (which has long gone as usual) reminds me of when I was a rest day from the jail I worked in. I think the world record for ambulance callouts was broken that day with fourteen ambulances called in, all for 'spice' use & the consequences. I'm pleased I was off. Makes you wonder what would have happened to your gran if she'd fallen & needed assistance.
On another occasion during a nightshift a prisoner had fallen off a top bunk & whacked his head on the sink so we called 999. A paramedic turned up (pretty sharpish) & informed us that he was the only paramedic on duty that night between us (Wetherby) & Skipton.
It's probably only got a lot worse.

So to sum up,the original old chap has a non life threatening injury, wasnt suffering a large loss of blood wasnt in a dangerous situation or location etc etc and transport was available with his son or a taxi etc.

If an ambulance had attended it would have tied up a crew for the visit and booking in at the hospital, resulting in chest pain or major trauma or loss of blood etc etc patient having to wait with life threatening symptoms.

You forgot no one k knows what NI is for.

Ambulances don’t come to Hillingdon cycle circuit for crashes as a matter of principle now. Even a collar bone, collapsed lung and concussion. It’s about 2 miles to the hospital, and they expect a car to take a rider.

I think expectations of ambulance supply and use should be commensurate with other RU countries. Are they?

And I too voted for, and pay more tax. It hurts of course but I believe in society.

Ambulances don’t come to Hillingdon cycle circuit for crashes as a matter of principle now. Even a collar bone, collapsed lung and concussion. It’s about 2 miles to the hospital, and they expect a car to take a rider.

I’d disagree with that.
The last race I was watching there there was a pretty huge crash which ended up with one rider not n a great way. He got an both a Paramedic in a response car and an ambulance. It probably wasn’t more than 20 minutes before the response car arrived and the ambulance wasn’t far behind.

Reading this makes me slightly sick of the thought of the state I'd have been in if it wasn't for the relatively quick attendance of the ambulance to my accident last week when I broke my femur, and all of a sudden the half hour I was left waiting seems like nothing! Very grateful I was seen to quick, and general kudos all round to the care from the NHS so far.

Now thats out of the way, who else would pay more Tax?

Me - On my nurses salary I just creep into the the level of earnings where I pay a bit more tax in Scotland and although I did not vote SNP I did vote green and they support it as well

Ambulances don’t come to Hillingdon cycle circuit for crashes as a matter of principle now. .... . It’s about 2 miles to the hospital, and they expect a car to take a rider.

Do you think that is actually the policy? Or did someone call, and get told “long wait, since you are so close I would get yourselves there if you can”. IF a venue is putting enough demand on a service for it to even be considered likely that a policy of non attendance could be in place I’d be questioning if their first aid risk assessment required them to consider putting a private ambulance arrangement in place.

We took my club mate, who is a paramedic to Hillingdon A and E after his crash. OK he was conscious but in a terrible way. The other clubmate may have had an ambulance on another occasion, I can check and he ended up with a week in hospital. When I had concussion by the side of the track for five minutes, nothing was done at all. It wasn’t that long ago and it’s been noted on several occasions that they will not come. Years ago, we had the air ambulance for a similar crash with similar injuries!

The public services are massively stretched, often by dealing with stuff that should have been dealt with elsewhere and earlier in the system, e.g. ambo and social care, police and mental health

Even gave us a lift home as car was undrivable.

Great service (no sarcasm intended), but they could/should have called a taxi for you during the hour that they monitored your mum

As an aside, I wonder if we'll ever follow a US-style combined fire and ambulance service model NHS could pay fire service (linky)

Do you think that is actually the policy?

It's definitely not the policy. It's treated no different to anywhere else it's just that the calls there often get triaged as low priority so have a long wait for a resource. It's not helped by the fact that Saturday afternoons are generally very busy for the ambulance service and have poorer than normal staffing levels.

Vote accordingly.

A valid point, but with both main parties obsessed with a hard Brexit, I don't see anyone offering a viable future which has any more money for public services (I know Labour pretent they will, but its the same BS the Tories are spouting, jobs first Brexit vs Red White and Blue Brexit - they both look like shit and taste like shit and everyone knows it).

A very bleak short / mid term future for the public services right now.

"The last race I was watching there there was a pretty huge crash which ended up with one rider not n a great way. He got an both a Paramedic in a response car and an ambulance. It probably wasn’t more than 20 minutes before the response car arrived and the ambulance wasn’t far behind. "

to be honest, BC circuit races should have paramedic/ ambulance on-site during events. Relying on 999 when there is a high potential for a significant rider injury at each event isn't really on

You forgot no one k knows what NI is for.

The backstop?

For those talking about Hillingdon don't they have St John's ambulance at sporting events? Paid for by the organisers?

My sister is in a wheelchair and managed to roll her electric wheelchair off the kerb (avoiding the bin that had been dumped in the middle of the pavement) and was pinned under it. Its 100kg of leadacid battery etc. I got there after about 30 mins and we ended up waiting over 3 hours for the ambulance to turn up. We were told to call back if her condition worsened and the call would be escalated. She started to go into shock and loose feeling in her lower limbs after about 2 hours. The local press turned up and streamed it all live on Facebook. She did consent.
She was actually lying in the road and cars were swerving around her. I eventually called the police who closed the road and escalated the call. It still took a further hour.
The worry was that she had broken her hip/pelvis and any movement could have killed her. The ambulance service acknowledged it was 100% a 999 call, along with the police who did everything they can, but they were stretched due to other emergencies. The police escalated it 3 times. My sister actually knows a Paramedic who saw the live stream and asked to go and assist, but was told no, he was to be tasked to a job 20 miles away. For a broken leg.
The local press tried destroying the local Ambulance Trust, along with the comments that tried to destroy me for not lifting her and taking her to hospital myself. The vitriol was disgusting.
My sister wrote to the local Ambulance trust and apologised for the hatred that the paper created and thanked the Trust personally.
I made a comment during the live stream that she was a vulnerable person, and that the wait was too long and the local paper tried to get me to make it all sound that she was being abandoned an that this was a Tory issue. Its not just one party.
Both my sister and myself fully appreciate what they do, with the resources that they have, but its now getting a joke, but not the local Trusts fault.
It transpires that during my sisters fall there were a couple of serious car crashes and a few heart attacks. All of which are a priority and more important than my sister.
Resources can only go so far.

to be honest, BC circuit races should have paramedic/ ambulance on-site during events. Relying on 999 when there is a high potential for a significant rider injury at each event isn’t really on

I totally agree with that but I'd imagine that people don't want to pay for it.

There is always a qualified first-aider on site. But not an ambulance. It would raise the cost considerably, but might limit provision due to availability. The issue is of course availability, and I imagine the closeness of the hospital. It is often quicker to drive the casualty to the hospital.

Road races also must have a first aid support car. Normally with a paramedic, I believe. I've been treated by an ambulance at a road race after a concussion too.

Must remember never to ride with TiRed.

Going back to the original post, it is better to phone for an ambulance and be told that you don't really need one, than to phone for advice and be told that it is a life threatening situation and that an ambulance has been dispatched. Look on the bright side.................

All of which are a priority and more important than my sister.

I think you mean more urgent than your sister 😉

Actually your scenario sounds like the sort of thing where the Fire Service might have been of some assistance (I know not all FF are keen on that). Which reminds me about Timba's point above - round here seeing Ambulances based out of Fire Stations is quite common. Watching "Ambulance" makes clear that Ambulance services are often sending multiple vehicles to the same job either for muscle power or to be extra hands on complex jobs, and when you add in the RTAs, terrorist incidents, chemical spills etc where they both need to work alongside each other, and realise that the fire service do a lot more than squirt a hose at some hot stuff (locally they train all school children in CPR), you do start to wonder why they aren't already one joined up "rescue service". Then you might wonder why mountain rescue provision usually falls under the police remit rather than the medical/rescue organisation. The answer of course is all to do with the legislation that formed them, the funding they get and a lack of political imagination.