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WTF?
All UNRECORDED and buried in the 20th century in the grounds of a home for unmarried Mums run by Catholic Nuns, ranging upto 9yrs old?!!
Smacks of the disapeared/similar story/scandal in 20th century Spain c20's-70's.
Go religion!
Religion spreading peace and harmony across the globe, go Catholicism !
Links hora ?
“If you look at the records, babies were dying two a week,
Most of the bodies were dumped in a sewage tank.
Horrific.
http://rt.com/news/163764-800-dead-irish-orphans/
So just going to post this with no links/evidence/citation?
On bbc24 news now
www.google.co.uk/search?client=ms-android-samsung&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8&q=800+mass+grave+catholic+home
Devils literally amongst us
Yey religion!
Was on 5live yesterday. Horrific.
[i]Devils literally amongst us[/i]
Don't believe in that sort of thing myself.
Local records say sickness but thats because they thought they were faminine victims. Weird only children in one grave all starved/related... probably why they delved deeper into this.
Well done who brought this investigation to light
Ah well, you know what they say.
Deadliness is next to godliness.
I can't begin to imagine what it must have been like for those poor women, trapped in that nightmare.
Now, did somebody say "separation of church and state"?
APF
Utterly astounding how the perpetrators of this kind of thing could moralise at unmarried mothers yet allow such things to happen (or actually actively do these things). I saw this yesterday on the Graun and was a bit ashamed that I knew nothing about this. Mind you, when it come to covering up wrong doing, turning a blind eye and 'moving on' predatory criminals, the Catholic Church does have previous. Lots of previous.
It doesn't take too much of a leap of imagination to consider what other 'punishments' these 'ungodly' children and mothers might have deemed worthy of. It is sickening, and a very sad indictment of medieval chauvinistic bigotry being dressed up as righteousness. No homes for the fathers of these children, note.
But so long as 'lessons are learned' and the perpetrators either die before being exposed or slip away unnoticed, then it all fine.
This whole thing makes me feel physically sick, I'm afraid.
Was first uncovered in 1975 from what I read yesterday and was common knowledge, wonder why it's never been investigated?
I read that the deaths were recorded but that the bodies were dumped in an unused septic tank instead of being buried.
Bit like the Christian Missionaries burning witches alive in The Congo a coupla years back
Sums it all up.
****ing disgusting.
According to Corless, death rates for children in the Tuam mother and baby home, and in similar institutions, were four to five times that of the general population. A health board report from 1944 on the Tuam home describes emaciated, potbellied children, mentally unwell mothers and appalling overcrowding. But, as Corless points out, this was no different to other homes in Ireland. They all had the same mentality: that these women and children should be punished.
f--k religion
@ zomg's post.
That's just the crowning insult.
Anything can be trivialised and explained away if you are a cynical scumbag.
Just so long as you say sorry before you pop your clogs, everything will turn out ok cause of your 'piety'.
These people need to be taken outside and given an extended lesson in 'consequences'. Preferably with a baton or a length of lead pipe. Just to knock some of that smug self-satisfaction out of them.
**** cruelty to children and infanticide whoever does it
Unbelievable , and at the same time only too unsurprising 🙁
I hate the human race sometimes.
So how many mass burials like this around the other homes?
I can't decide if zomgs link is a parody or not, has that bloke never seen Father Ted? Those orphans were just resting in my account
The Catholic Church Scandal Containment Unit....
Is this for real ?
It's a satirical website
Is this for real ?
It's on the same page as: "Busker Charged For Murdering Wonderwall", "Internet Running Out Of Irrational And Angry Comments, Experts Reveal" & "‘Cult Leader’ Jesus Named In FBI’s Top 10 Most Wanted List". I'm pretty sure you can work it out...
Would you be a practicing Catholic now?
And the apologists are already out, like that odious person from "christian voice" saying things like "you can't *prove* it is from that home".
No, a load of children happened to appear out of thin air right next to the home then all spontaneously die and fall into a septic tank.
Words fail me at the horrors religion causes upon the world. 😥
Never mind some Argie bloke in a gown and expensive jewellery will make an announcement from an obscure suburb of Rome proclaiming the children have been forgiven and the perpetraitors have been made saints.
AdamW - Member
....No, a load of children happened to appear out of thin air right next to the home then all spontaneously die and fall into a septic tank...
Excellent point. There's no way they can spin this.
It would be a horror story if it was 10-15 kids buried like that, but 800?
Sounds like there was a "final solution" going on.
Also, many of the mothers will still be alive. I cannot even begin to think of how they feel.
You didn't expect me to read the whole thing did you Lemony 😳
f--k religion
That's a can of worms...as a lifelong atheist I abhor every single crime committed in the name of religion, but I know an awful lot of people of faith who are every bit as appalled and sicked at this as I. I don't hate Catholicism for this, but I hate a lot of Catholics.
But we're talking about a mass killing, the scale of which is mind boggling in a neutral country during the darkest days of the twentieth century. Terms like "genocide" and "final solution" aren't hyperbole. Will anyone stand public trial for this?
Not a chance of prosecution. The thing is with many of these religious crimes, the perpetrators, the complicit and those that looked the other way are nasty, poisonous individuals.
Anything but 'christian'.
Cpndemning religion is a diversion from the real cause; the social attitudes that made cloistering single mothers away from society an acceptable option. All these years on it appears that the judgementalism against those in most need of help is on the rise again.
"Terms like "genocide" and "final solution" aren't hyperbole."
Maybe or maybe not - but certainly inappropriate.
ohnohesback - MemberCpndemning religion is a diversion from the real cause; the social attitudes that made cloistering single mothers away from society an acceptable option. All these years on it appears that the judgementalism against those in most need of help is on the rise again.
Posted 1 hour ago # Report-Post
I'm not too sure what to think of this. Are the social attitudes not caused in a large part by the religion? Are those who were most in need of help either at best emotionally scarred by the aforementioned religion, and at worst, at the bottom of a sceptic tank, again, put there by people serving that religion?
Whilst mankind certainly don't need religion to be evil, it seems to play one hell of a helping hand.
Cpndemning religion is a diversion from the real cause; the social attitudes that made cloistering single mothers away from society an acceptable option. All these years on it appears that the judgementalism against those in most need of help is on the rise again.
What tinybits said it was the church that gave them the values and still does in removing a womens right to abortion etc.
I went to schools run by Christian Brothers and nuns. Evil evil barstuards.
I have nothing to do with religion now. You can stick your "man in the sky" crap. I still think religion is the root of more death in this world than anything else.
Another victory for religion !
my f--k religion comment was considered
plenty of politicians and people on here like to remind us that we are a christian country and that many of our laws and morals have evolved from religious teachings
seems to be even truer in Ireland where state and church are even more closely tied up
the article i linked to implied it was state policy to punish the children and mothers because the children had been born 'In Sin'
and the reason that that satirical page fooled so many people was because the constant revelations about historical abuse of children and women, gays etc by religious groups and the inevitable denials and cover ups mean that its hard to believe there isnt anything the church wouldnt do
Until the leaders of the Christian and Celtic communities are willing to stand up and condemn this kind of extremism, I don't think it's unreasonable for the rest of us to regard them with suspicion. I can't believe that they are so afraid to stand up and speak out against the elders in their community. The way they treat their women is disgusting, as is their allegiance to a foreign power. It's about time that moderate Christians and Celts accepted that they have an image problem among right-thinking people, and their attempts to expand their control over the British education system should be resisted at all costs.
These people really are despicable:
Father Fintan Monaghan, secretary of the Tuam archediocese, says: "I suppose we can't really judge the past from our point of view, from our lens. All we can do is mark it appropriately and make sure there is a suitable place here where people can come and remember the babies that died."Let's not judge the past on our morals, then, but on the morals of the time. Was it OK, in mid-20th century Ireland, to throw the bodies of dead children into sewage tanks?
I detest how the government tiptoes around the church so as not to upset it. It's just a group of normal people (save for the child abusers, neglecters and murderers obviously).
If they'd discovered 800 bodies out the back of Pirate Pete's Adventure Playground, do you think the police would be calling up their head office and asking nicely for cooperation?
Mind boggling this. Utterly mind boggling. Is it they think illegitimate means no soul? Flame me but with the widespread child abuse and now this- why is it 'children' spring to mind when you think of Catholicism?
I think the Catholic Church sold its soul a long time ago with constant links to historical child abuse, ill treatment of people who looked to the "church" for shelter or assistance and got roundly shafted...
This legacy or abuse, brutality and neglect will be forever the Catholic Churches "Cross To Bear"
The 800 young kids bodies that are "just resting" is tragic. If Rolf Harris can be up in court for something that happened many many years ago.... the perpetrators of this act by the church need to go to the front of the queue.
If priests are begging forgiveness, well, sorry, no.
I have two experienxces of the catholic church.
my Father in law was sexually and physically abused while at 'priest school' in Ireland
A friend had to forcibly remove a priest from his grandmas house in Ireland. His granddad had just died and the priest was asking for all his gold / watches / valuables, because "he would have wanted the church to have them", literally a day after his death.
nasty, corrupt people.
Desperately sad and very misguided people. Ireland is a democracy, their laws basically prevent abortion today and 50 years ago things would have been much worse. Religion itself is not to blame, its a misguided society.
The movies Philomena and the Magdalene sisters are both excellent films dealing with this issues.
Nicely done konabunny.
Despite my dislike of religion I'm more inclined toward tinybit's helping hand comment than **** religion one.
its a misguided society.
Can't say I disagree with most of what's been written, though much of it is borne of not quite ignorance of how much power the church has had in Ireland for centuries, but moreso [i]why[/i] it's had that power. But to make an sweeping statement like "it's a misguided society" takes a special kind of ignorance indeed.
Ok, in no way am I rushing to defend the actions of the church in Ireland but I think there is more being bandied about than the evidence I've seen can support. All this is from what I've read and I'm happy to be corrected.
First up, the "800" figure is for all deaths of children over a 40 year period which couldn't be accounted for from existing records. The initial proposal was simply that these deaths be memorialised but this has been connected to the 1975 find but doesn't reflect having combed through the remains found and matched them up. As far as i know no one knows how many people were buried in the tank and no one can link the bodies directly to those who died in the house.
Secondly , all the references to it being a sewage tank imply that they were chucking dead children into an in use septic tank. That's not the case from what I've read, it was an unused concrete container in the grounds of their estate.
Also, it seems highly unlikely to me that there was an open grave on the site for 40 years, if nothing else the smell and the hygiene impact would make that a bizarre thing for them to have done. It seems more likely to me that the tank was used to re-inter bones from graves in the grounds as space demanded. Potentially this could include bones from previous generations, including famine victims - hence the original assumption in 1975 - sites like that aren't uncommon in Ireland.
The tragedy in this case is the appalling conditions in which these institutions kept their residents and that wasn't limited to catholic houses. Protestant institutions in Ireland had comparable death rates and I have no idea how british houses from the same period would compare but I'd not have high hopes. The death rate is horrendously high but it's still 20 deaths a year, comparisons to the holocaust are, frankly, silly.
It seems more likely to me that the tank was used to re-inter bones from graves in the grounds as space demanded. Potentially this could include bones from previous generations, including famine victims
No that was a previous assumption.
The [b]names[/b] of the 796 children buried in the unmarked mass grave were confirmed by historian Catherine Corless, after the authorities responded to her repeated requests to access state records.
What is more worrying is 4,000 more elsewhere?
As I said earlier IF they were victims of famine where are all the mothers that would have died to? Surely there'd be a corresponding figure coming close to the above and recorded when/where. If anything mother and child would have been buried together.
Mothers dont let their childrens/babies starve whilst they feed themselves and there is breastfeeding etc.
It just doesn't add up.
The septic tank is a headline grabber. A evocative one but welcome I feel as it'll jolt someone in authority to do something. i.e. investigate this.
Shudder- a Church runs a countries social services. Mental, a religious 'private' company in essence that reports to a head in a different country.
Still the perpetrators probably went to confessional before they met their end.......
But to make an sweeping statement like "it's a misguided society" takes a special kind of ignorance indeed.
It's true though, relegion is only a symptom, or process to obtain power. In itself it is harmless, in the same way as any other tool. When it's wielded to exert power is when it becomes an object of hate.
Ultimately it's society that has bred the relegions we currently have, society is at fault. People. You and me and everyone else who participates. It's even more screwed up though, because in this particular case it's the misogyny of society that has resulted in the horrific conditions and deaths of mothers and children. It's those who are underclasses who are targeted, the weak, young and disenfrachised.
The names of the 796 children buried in the unmarked mass grave were confirmed by historian Catherine Corless, after the authorities responded to her repeated requests to access state records.
Just because they now have names doesn't mean that they have anymore evidence of how their bodies were treated after their deaths.
Got nack-all to do with religion, no matter who did what in whatever name.
True, it was the religions representatives here on earth..
lemonysam - Member
...Secondly , all the references to it being a sewage tank imply that they were chucking dead children into an in use septic tank. That's not the case from what I've read, it was an unused concrete container in the grounds of their estate...
I'm sure if it was an unused water reservoir that would have been mentioned.
I'm puzzled as to what other purpose than sewage an "unused concrete container" could be intended for. Was it built specifically for pit burials?
I've not read the above but I read elsewhere that the Irish state used to pay a 'bounty' to these homes for each child they managed to get adopted.
Those that were unsuitable for adoption or ill were seen as having no value and treated so poorly a lot of them died.
I read elsewhere that the Irish state used to pay a 'bounty' to these homes for each child they managed to get adopted.Those that were unsuitable for adoption or ill were seen as having no value and treated so poorly a lot of them died.
Correct. It was known in Ireland at the time (1934) that
mortality among “illegitimate children” in 1924 was five times that of the rest of the population.
But that in itself is not thought to expain the number of deaths in the Tuam home.
There is a village in Hants (I'm not going to name it) that's not too far from my home that was a "hospital" in a very similar vein to the one mentioned here.
They have buried 1500 in the grounds(thereabouts, they stopped counting) single Mums and Kids that were treated in the same way.
Every year there is a service held on the old grounds to remember them, the service attracts about 3000 folks. To say it's a moving tribute is an understatement.
Thing is, the old "hospital" is now new flats and Appt's and a modern village with about 400 homes on.
The residents tried to get this once a year service stopped because it was upsetting thier families.
Difficult to comprehend don't you think. 😕
But to make an sweeping statement like "it's a misguided society" takes a special kind of ignorance indeed
The Indian lady died as she was told "we don't do abortions, this is Ireland". I'm a Catholic, confirmed. Went to a convent school for a bit. I don't see it as the religions fault. What was happening wasn't a secret. Its the framework of the society.
The site of a local hospital and before that a workhouse for the poor, now rebuilt as cheap housing, has an old church yard containing the bodies of many thousands of babies and unborn babies.
It was accepted then,but is seen as something terrible and shocking now.
The Indian lady died as she was told "we don't do abortions, this is Ireland".
We'll just ignore your straw man for now...
I'm a Catholic, confirmed. Went to a convent school for a bit. I don't see it as the religions fault.
If you can't see that the religion of those who ran these places played a major part in their actions, then you're some kind of blind.
What was happening wasn't a secret. Its the framework of the society.
I'm not sure what to infer from what your saying. (Well, I think I do, but really don't want to think it.) In which tense are you talking? And do you think those crazy Irish would have mistreated their illegitimate children similarly without the influence of priests and nuns?
I really don't understand why STW contributors are on here expressing shock and outrage, they must live very sheltered lives. This kind of thing has been going on for centuries; unwanted babies have been allowed to die quietly and famine or plague victims have been thrown into communal pits - how many Irish and Scots do you think died during the potato famines? It's all very well to heap scorn on those who perpetrated these things but at that time it was considered normal and even necessary in those societies. How do we know that in a hundred years our great grand-children won't be disgusted by something we consider perfectly acceptable today?
What I say doesn't excuse the disgusting acts perpetrated all over the world in the name of religion though - especially if you believe that religion is nothing more than "my imaginary friend is better than yours". Religion is, to me, the greatest mistake of the Human race.
The first Magdalene Asylum was in London, not Ireland.
They were operated by many Christian denominations, not just Catholicism.
Inhuman behaviour in the name of religion is not exclusive to one denomination.
Globalti the children in the "care" of those nun had a 4 times higher mortality rate than the other locals so you are frankly talking out of your bottom.
religion does seem to have good deniability, anyone who shares your religion and performs acts you disapprove of in the name of said religion can apparently be disregarded as not being true believers. That's convenient eh?Got nack-all to do with religion, no matter who did what in whatever name.
(Not saying that's what happened here)
Btw I am aware of the problems of generalisations and other groups being brought into disrepute by the actions of a few, problem is, religions tend to have central tenets and scripture there backing up the nuttier end of the scales viewpoint, it's just that the more level headed say "oh we just ignore that bit"
just playing advocate, are those sent to the homes not going to be those right at the bottom of the social heap so already seriously disadvantaged, therefore skewing the stats? (Not enough to warrant 4times tho I'd guess)Globalti the children in the "care" of those nun had a 4 times higher mortality rate than the other locals so you are frankly talking out of your bottom.
that time it was considered normal and even necessary in those societies. How do we know that in a hundred years our great grand-children won't be disgusted by something we consider perfectly acceptable today?
I think a lot of the problem is this.... It's well within living memory in a civilised country, very close to home.
It's not a 100 years ago, it was upto 55yrs ago. Some of those mothers and people in the homes are very much alive.
I'm astonished that some in this thread can't see the link between this and the catholic religion. Or the influence religion has on society, which seems to be far more than society has on religion!
"Got nack-all to do with religion"
<nelson muntz>HA..HA!<nelson muntz/>
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
Epicurus 341 BCE - 270 BCE
Nope, not buying the "it's not religions fault".
Everywhere that's been touched by the Catholic church has been FUBAR'ed. Spain and Italy are corrupt as ****, South and Central America are even more corrupt and the Philippines is as well.
If you compare ex British colonies to Spanish ones, who are the ones who are doing better? Oh yes, the ones that weren't Catholic. If Spain had conquered North America, it to, would resemble Mexico.
You're right Tom, as well as the Vatican being complicit with some of the slaughter that was undertaken by the worst of the Nazis during WWII.
catholicism WOW
[IMG] 
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just playing advocate, are those sent to the homes not going to be those right at the bottom of the social heap so already seriously disadvantaged
The thing is, they are/were only at the bottom of the social heap in the first place because of the attitude and teachings of the Catholic Church.
Indeed, children born out of wedlock (and their mothers) have been treated absolutely fairly in every situation other than those unlucky enough to be born in catholic countries.
Yep. You're talking about a religion that covers up and tolerates all sorts of disgusting behaviour but ostracizes women who have children our of wedlock.
As did/does all other religions.