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does anyone buy them?
I’m a fully paid up artisan/craft consumer and I don’t care.
selvage denim made in London, decent wine, £3 artisan donuts (from St John bakery), shoes from Northampton, Danish ‘mid century’ furniture (the real stuff not Ikea crap) single origin coffee from the best roasters in Europe (the Barn/ Drop etc). And I like beer, proper beer like mild and stout/porter as well as saison, lambic, gueuze etc so not adverse to seeking out and paying for interesting beer.
but £8-£9 for a can of cloudwater?
I imagine someone will be buying them otherwise they wouldn't be making them.
No in short.
We have a wee artisan beer shop and bar place in town that we frequent which sells some nice beers at about £3 to £4a can and I’ll partake in that stuff but they also have bottles up to about £17!! This is mainly Belgian beer and I’ll be surprised if they’ve ever sold a bottle yet.
I have paid that price for beer. It has to be good and it's a treat. Think of it like paying extra for good wine. The extra cost of the hops and that it is probably a limited run is why it costs more. They're not getting the savings the mega brewers get and they create real local jobs.
If you think it's too much don't buy it and don't worry about it.
I think I've gone to £6.50, maybe £7.
This is very good, though £6.15
https://www.magicrockbrewing.com/product/what-are-the-odds-500ml-can/
If it's something that looks good, why not?
I've paid about £20 for a 330ml bottle before, and it was sublime. Worth every penny, and lasted an evening. Black Tokyo Horizon.
Yes, if you like it and can afford it why not?
I only like Co-op imported Czech Lager (£1.50/500ml bottle), Cornish Pilser (£2.30 to £3.00/pint) and some imported German white beer (£1.85/500ml bottle).
I have tried some IPA stuff but not to my liking.
Not that unusual for me, although I do live in Norway so that's my excuse. But as a treat, and if it's well rated why not?
I think I tried some Nogne a while back, don’t think it was anything special, and certainly not good enough to stop me reaching for a Kernel India export porter or a table beer.
I might take a punt on a can of something ‘expensive’ from the local beer shop soon and see if they live up to the hype.
I wouldn't but then I've paid £4-£5 a pint for some terrible beer so that's probably worse value.
Not a chance, from me.
Not when my local produces the best real ale this side of the pacos... £3.20 a pint and take away at £2.90 a pint ..
You can dress how you like, it’s the demeanour that counts.
Yes. A Cloudwater DIPA, and a barrel aged sour.
£10 for a G&T and £3 for less than 1/2 pint in the hotel that I just spent an angry week in Majorca!
selvage denim made in London, decent wine, £3 artisan donuts (from St John bakery), shoes from Northampton, Danish ‘mid century’ furniture (the real stuff not Ikea crap) single origin coffee from the best roasters in Europe (the Barn/ Drop etc). And I like beer, proper beer like mild and stout/porter as well as saison, lambic, gueuze etc so not adverse to seeking out and paying for interesting beer.
Do you ever feel the need for a chicken sandwich meal from maccy d's?
£8-9 for cloudwater, someone's making a few quid on them and it isn't the brewery. never see a can of their's for more than £6 these days.
Some shops are keener on their pricing than others, recently seen 750ml cantillon kriek for sale at £10.80 in one place and £18.50 in another! recently bought a loverbeer saison for £8, which was really expensive and later saw it for sale elsewhere for £12, it was only a 375ml bottle too and some of the american stuff can be eye wateringly expensive!
Not adverse to spending decent money on decent beer but this whole craft beer scene is like the national lottery when it comes to quality! There's too many shit breweries out there and even the big hitters like cloudwater, verdant, magic rock, northern monk are turning out too much rubbish and asking top dollar for it, these days i rarely buy any cans i've not tried on keg previous.
Yes, I have done and some of the good stuff from Track next door.
The DIPA's are good beers and the hop bill alone will push up the price. The barrel aging also costs money and does a lot for the flavour. If you don't want to pay that they have everything for £3 a glass (size of glass varies by beer) in the barrel store.
But £8 for 500ml of good quality beer puts it at the same price as a £12 bottle of red - about the price for a half decent aussie shiraz these days, So it's not that bad really if you like the beer.
People have a price conditioning, beer is cheap and we drink lots of it, wine is more but we drink it slower etc. etc. the world of what is on offer is changing along with how we consume it. Plenty of people I know would now take some beers around to share over dinner over wine.
I think this thread has descended into "I'm frightfully more middle-class than you but still drink beer to stay in touch with the working man"
We should hold a fete to raise funds for the deserving poor to enjoy some.
Do you ever feel the need for a chicken sandwich meal from maccy d’s?
No, not had a McDonald’s since 1996. Fish and chips is my fast food of choice.
£8 for 4 Jack Hammer IPA will do me.
Most I’ve ever spent was £35 ish for a Tactical Nuclear Penguin.
We should hold a fete to raise funds for the deserving poor to enjoy some.
Will there be a similar scheme to allow me to have some Chateau de Chassilier?
Most I’ve ever spent was £35 ish for a Tactical Nuclear Penguin.
How was it, nearly got one for christmas from the local good offie but it had gone.
Worse value alcohol by volume for near on 4 pages 😉 Wine only has one real ingredient too so it's ridiculous how much the price varies. It's not like the costs of malt are up this year, the hops cost money and all that is it....
and yeah 3 posts in a row, frivolous
Sweet and smelt of ash trays.
Worth trying if you like a complex beer, it’s been a while since I tried it so would probably buy another 👍
The extra cost of the hops
Hops are a fixed price, and Yakima valley are churning out plenty. My tied gaff sells pints for upto £5,20 but that reflects our extortionate rent in one of the most desirable parts of the UK. Our cheapest untied pint is £3.40. Don't be mugged off!
To be clear, this is £8 in an off-licence /supermarket type place? If so, no. I really don't think I've spent more than £2.50, or maybe £3.00 on holiday in small local shops.
I'm not adverse to spending money on crap, so as Mike says above I'm just conditioned that beer is a cheap drink. I'm happy to spend a lot more occasionally for good wine or whisky so should probably try some "better" beers as well just to see what's out there.
maybe not £8, but I've paid a lot. Just been around California, and the selection there was amazing. Think the strongest was 9.5%, and even the wife got into a 8.5% Orange Wheat Beer. They were a bit more than the average Bud Light.
But it is only one an evening, savoured.
Here we're lucky to have two shops nearby, one in Newbury and one in Reading, and even the local brewer has now got a craft beer subsidiary selling DIPA or a pineapple pale ale.
I also work for a can producer, so quite frankly the more cans we sell the better. And the cans we produce for them are winning awards
Hops are a fixed price, and Yakima valley are churning out plenty.
Does every beer contain the same amount?
And i was thinking isopropanol
Much cheaper
Sources of divine IPA for under £4:
Smithfield Market Tavern, Manchester
The Dispensary, Liverpool
Does every beer contain the same amount?
Quite. I homebrew and beers with a high hop content cost me a lot more to make. And pricing varies depending on the variety. Then there's the additional losses from absorption.
8 Ace £1.49
Is that 8 beers of that or just something else? Are they double ipa's?
Is the stw policy that there should be a cap on beer prices? Where are we on other key staples like olives?
Absolutely no chance when I can walk into the convivial atmosphere of a pub and enjoy a fresh pint for £3 here in Manchester. If it's Holts, you know it was brewed very recently and has only travelled a couple of miles.
People who spend hideous amounts of money on miserable little cans of pasteurised beer fizzed up with CO2 are victims of the old marketing adage that if you sell things very expensive you can fool a certain number of gullible and cash-rich people into believing the product must be superior in some way.
. If it’s Holts, you know it was brewed very recently and has only travelled a couple of miles.
If it's cloud water I can buy it from the fridge in the room where the barrel aging happens. I can buy a fresh beer too. Keg style beer has made a very solid breakthrough in the craft Market due to quality.
Id guess you haven't tried any of the beers down there?
Just pop down
Cloudwater Unit 9 tap room
Piccadilly Trading Estate, Unit 9, Gidding Road, Manchester M1 2NP
0161 278 9029
https://goo.gl/maps/y1s3aHBzNv72
Try some beers and see if it's worth it
^^ couldn't agree more (apart from enjoying the Holts bit). Bought a White Rat last week in Liverpool for £3.30, it was 5/5 same as when I was last in that place. The RAT IPA was £3.60. Nothing out of a tin, pasteurised and gassed, could come close to that.
If it’s Holts, you know it was brewed very recently and has only travelled a couple of miles.
Meanwhile, the rest of us will get on with drinking beer that tastes nice.
petec, good to see Inn at Home mentioned there. A great shop (at least the Newbury one is, as that's the one I've been to). They sell the likes of Tiny Rebel, Stonehenge and Arbor as well, which is A Good Thing.
Nothing out of a tin, pasteurised and gassed, could come close to that.
You know that beer got delivered to the pub in a big metal tin, was made in a big metal tank? You can try and make it sound bad but truly it's not. I guess you didn't try any of them to actually compare to
good to see Inn at Home mentioned
The shop is the main reason I go to Newbury (although to be fair the town has improved immensely recently). Great selection, and there are some amazing local providers. The taproom at WestBerks is superb, and if you ever get the chance to go and see Tim at TuttsClump cider in his car workshop - leap at it. Lovely chap, who started off making 25 litres a year. He's now up to about 100000.
We had a bottle of Brewdog Sink the Bismark @ £55, can't remember if it was 330ml or 500ml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good
Is this now applicable to beer?
There is also what I call "the myth of the artisan" that anything produced in small quantities by small companies is automatically better than something that is mass produced. My usual rant about this is focused on custom bike frames.
There is also what I call “the myth of the artisan” that anything produced in small quantities by small companies is automatically better than something that is mass produced.
Could be true, the way to tell would be to try it rather than buying a pint somewhere else and declaring nothing could be better. I got to know a lot of small/craft brewers they used to sell at the price that covered costs on the brew itself so the price variations for some of the ones with more expensive ingredients went up.They also don't have the scale as many of these brews could be one off batches as they explore.
Try some beers and see if it’s worth it
i’m going to (soon) there are 2 ‘craft’ beer shops 3 min walk away and friends of mine run a brewery down the road and they stock guest beers in can/bottle so access/choice is defiantly not a problem.
trouble is i will be comparing whatever i buy to what i can get from Kernel brewery whose beers i find exceptional and they are priced very reasonably.
“the myth of the artisan”
if someone made a decent flavoured beer in bulk, and cheap, I'd buy it.
Unfortunately most people prefer lager, or cider made with 35% apple juice and artificial fruit flavours
If you want 100% juice cider, or a beer that isn't to the taste of the vast majority, you'll have to pay. Otherwise it's not worth the supplier making it.
Having said that, I do buy a lot of cans of IPA from Asda for £1.50 each, and get the Lidl rebranded Westons cider for £1.15. It's knowing where to look. Both of those are still vastly more expensive than carlsberg or strongbow however. But at least - to me! - they taste of something.
One of my siblings was a finance director of a craft brewery.
You're paying for the higher quality of ingredients, mainly hops, and often higher amount required in double or triple hopped IPA's. On top of that you're paying for the brewers experience and knowledge.
This is where the craft bit comes in as the brewer is doing a small batch with expensive ingredients and they need to balance things off and account for the PH and purity of the water and make sure the whole thing is done at the correct temps and for the right time. It's something they only get to with having a really good knowledge of beer production.
I've had a few of the more expensive ones that brewery produced and i'm now much more inclined to buy a really good beer than wine. I like the challenge of some of them and the complexity of others
You could give two brewers exactly the same yeast, hops and malt but they could get vastly different beers out it just from their process and the water source alone.
People who spend hideous amounts of money on miserable little cans of pasteurised beer fizzed up with CO2 are victims of the old marketing adage that if you sell things very expensive you can fool a certain number of gullible and cash-rich people into believing the product must be superior in some way.
This.
You know that beer got delivered to the pub in a big metal tin, was made in a big metal tank?
That’s pretty much any commercial beer. But what a traditional small brewery doesn’t do is stick it a can, pasteurise and CO2 it to death. Then stick it in a fridge.
I worked as a brewer at a small brew pub and also for one of Europe’s largest breweries canning their beer and cider. Beer before and after pasteurisation is totally different. I’ve put some of my home brew through a pasteuriser before now to see what the effect was. It completely destroyed it.
I've drunk plenty of "artisanal craft beer" and I remember when proper beer was called "real ale", and I understand why craft beer is called craft beer and not real ale! Some craft beer is nice, some is not and the price charged has very little to do with that.
The point still stands. Brewdog are now a company that mass produces craft beer and sells it pretty cheaply. I like some of their beer, but not all of it. The point is that their beer is no worse now than when they were a little start up 10 years ago.
Belgian "abbey beer" is largely mass produced but also generally excellent. Cheap crappy lager and cider are still cheap and crappy. The fact they are mass produced is not the reason they are crappy!
That’s pretty much any commercial beer. But what a traditional small brewery doesn’t do is stick it a can, pasteurise and CO2 it to death. Then stick it in a fridge.
https://www.micromatic.com/beer-questions/pasteurized-and-non-pasteurized-keg-beer
Now a serious question are all craft beers pasteurised?
Have you tried any of the beers we are talking about here?
Most craft beers aren't pasteurised.
Also pasteurisation isn't a Yes/No thing. There are different ways to do it, and the basic trade off is between increased product stability and "acceptable" flavour degradation....
Earlier this year i left a can of Tennents lager out in my garden, in a spot that gets direct sunlight (and reaches 50c) until about 2pm and then is in the shade until morning. Was out there for about 6 months.
Stuck it in the fridge and opened it along with a fresh can. Barely any difference - a slight hint of trans-2-nonenal (A sort of cardboard-y flavour associated with aged beer), but if the test had been a blind AB or triangle test you wouldn't notice.
That's pretty impressive flavour stability. How you want to view the trade-off in flavour though.....
^ actually, I've had unpasteurised tennents on tap at Drygate, at the Tennents brewery.. Doubt I could tell the difference tbh
I recently had some Pilsner straight out of a barrel in the cellars of Pilsner Urquell over in Czech. Absolutely outstanding!
Yes I don't usually drink Eurofizz but behind my usual hotel in Addis Ababa I've found a small German-owned craft brewery and the lager there is in a different league, being fresh as fresh can be and not stored for weeks.
Now a serious question are all craft beers pasteurised?
If it’s in a can, then yes.
Cans are coated on the inside to prevent taint from the aluminium. All canned beer is either CO2 or nitrogen doused to add pressure, essential to maintain the structural integrity of the can for storage and transportation. Also as a flooding agent before the can end is sealed to drive out oxygen, which will spoil the drink.
Bottled beer ret can be unpasteurised, but again will be CO2 or nitrogen flooded and then fobbed to drive out the oxygen to prevent spoiling.
Cask conditioned beer isn’t pasteurised, at least on small scale breweries, but the action of vigorous filling creates a natural fobbing of the beer and cask. Once tapped that beer will slowly degrade once oxygen is allowed into the cask.
If it’s in a can, then yes.
It's not universally done though, I've got mates who have used mobile canning and I'm 99% sure it's not been done.
Cask conditioned beer isn’t pasteurised, at least on small scale breweries, but the action of vigorous filling creates a natural fobbing of the beer and cask. Once tapped that beer will slowly degrade once oxygen is allowed into the cask.
And the final point really is does it make a difference, I've sampled a heap of canned and fresh keg brews from lots of people over the last few years and I'd say I can't tell the difference from those, in some cases the same beer that is coming out of a tap on the wall is in cans next to it.
These guys are producing some great beer and selling it, the craft/keg brewing industry is a UK success story which is actually creating new venues and through tap rooms and cellar door type operations. Brewdog are opening bars which are popular and vibrant.
If you want to obsess over the production details and claim one is better than the other then go for it but don't forget to try some of the beer.
Edit - this sounds like the 29r debate at times
surely there is room for both keg and cask
west berks (cask) set up renegade (keg) to get around the camra restrictions
they're just integrating the two together. I think things are changing
If you want to obsess over the production details
I’m just offering my experience from years within the brewing industry. I like good beer, I’ve brewed good beer, I like the fact that there is now much more choice. I just don’t buy into “craft beer” when the reality is far from it.
I just don’t buy into “craft beer” when the reality is far from it.
Does it taste good? That is question one and the most important. Once we have got through that one we can talk about how they rammed gas into it.
the lager there is in a different league, being fresh as fresh can be and not stored for weeks.
???
Do you know what lager means?
I think there is some confusion. Pasteurising is the act of heating the liquid or liquid in its container up to a certain temperature for a certain amount of time, to kill a certain percentage of biological spoilage organisms.
Using inert gases for packaging to carbonate or reduce oxygen contact is a different thing.
Also, cask beers (and some bottles, and even cans) continue fermenting and conditioning in their containers. This creates CO2 which carbonates the beer and keeps things fresh and allows the flavours to develop.
But in general, not all canned beers are pasteurised. Cloudwater don't pasteurise their beer - I've been all round their brewery. Their shelf life is about 6 weeks I believe. Larher 'macro' beers (such as Tennents which is pasteurised - I've seen the mschine) have shelf lives nearer a year.
I think what breweries like Cloudwater, Kernel and many other small breweries is really interesting, there is so much variety in beer now as someone who grow up in Portsmouth and started drinking in 1991, there was weak lager, strong lager, Guinness and maybe Newcastle Brown if you were lucky!
To have the variety we have now is brilliant and many of the bars and tap rooms that go with it can have soe real character. I would rather have one or two cans of an interesting, full flavoured beer than 8 can of Fosters any day of the week.
I look at many of the imperial stouts that sit at around 10- 15% ABV and i treat them like a wine, they are there to be sipped and enjoyed not drunk in quantity.
^ yes. I had a 500ml bottle of a 13% smoked/chocolate/coffee/vanilla/raisin/chipotle stout that I made last night. Took all night to drink - was up studying til 2AM...
Do you ever feel the need for a chicken sandwich meal from maccy d’s?
Having spent two years wandering up and down the country, over tens of thousands of miles, I have to say yes to that.
However, where beer’s concerned, I’m a little more discriminating, and I really don’t like the fad for heavily hopped blond beers with a strong citrus flavour, thankfully it appears to be dying off a bit. Tonight I had a couple of pints of Three Daggers bitter, from my regular pub in Corsham, the Flemish Weaver. Three Daggers is a pub in Edington, near Westbury, and they have their own brewery, their brewmaster worked for Guinness, apparently. Anyway, they really do know how to brew a pint! I’ve tried four different brews of theirs, and their Blond is outstanding, just enough hops to give a slight edge, but the sort of rich flavour that has you saying, you know what, I will have another. And another. A bit like Tiny Riot’s Cwtch, or Purple Moose’s Dark Side Of The Moose. The great thing about the Weaver is they usually have four different beers on tap at any given moment, and they’re changed all the time, and sourced from all over the country.
Yum. 🍺
I nearly bought 4 cans of something the other day and the guy said "you know they're $44 for 4? They're 8% you know?". I put them back. What's a 4 pack of Tennent's Super cost these days? Jeez!
I think you will find alotof creft beers are filtered and not pasteurised . Some will be rough filtered down to .8 or .9 microns as thats pretty quick, cheap and reliable for a good few months of shelf life. Others will be sterile filtered down to .45micron to get a 1 year shelf life.
This is done after a period of cold conditioning to remove haze forming protein without the need for chemical / biological processing aids , so the beer stays clear.
Chances are the beer will be gassed / topped up with CO2 in a bulk tank 'big metal tin ' before being canned
There are 2 or 3 mobile canners who rock up with a van and will process your beer without the need for a huge capital investment in a canning line, hence the growth in the can market
Cans are easy to purge , recyclable, lightweight, safe to handle and do not allow UV to harm the beer.
The main reason for the price hike is output per man hours , if they are a small brewery the duty rate will be lower but this is offset by production volume per sq mtr , wages , and other overheads .
Buying small amounts of hops from a hop merchant is always going to be more expensive than buying a few tons straight from the grower .
Malts.- Bigger breweries pay 1/3 less for 17T bulk delivered into silo's by dedicated lorry than niche breweries buying 1ton in polyprop sacks
I bought one, accidentally, I’d buy one again (for a special treat though). It is delicious
£4 pints of real ale are actually really boring so yeah, £8 for delicious Cloudwater is actually great value
Where do you get your shoes in Northampton?
or
Well today I was shocked, I was in a pub today and they were charging £22 for a bottle of wine! £22 English pounds I tell you, now anyone can see it's just some grape juice. Then I saw the price of the fizzy stuff!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where do you get your shoes in Northampton?
Trickers factory outlet, they used to have a shop on eBay but now it’s online, I also have some RTW George Cleverley (made by Crockett& Jones) their bespoke are way above my budget.
500ml bottle of a 13% smoked/chocolate/coffee/vanilla/raisin/chipotle stout that I made last night.
That sounds like me perfect beer, and to link back to the title; I probably would pay £10 for it! Once at least.
Have spent £10 a few times but never found them worth buying a second time. Brewdog vs Beavertown Cigarettes & Alcohol is the only one I can remember. I'd buy it again at a fiver but no more (it was limited ed so there won't be a chance)
My girlfriend paid £10-12 for a bottle of Westvleteren 12 for my Christmas last year, and after the hype I couldn't believe how bad it tasted. So much so that I actually want to buy another bottle just to confirm that the first wasn't dodgy!
My favourite beer that's in regular production is probably Tempest Mexicake. Fairly similar in description to the homebrew above, and that's £4.50-£5 when you can find it.
Blimey, I was planning a little trip to Cloudwater this afternoon to test some of these arguments but then I looked at their prices. I think a wander down to Swan Street or Port Street is more within my beer budget, and it's cask. So I'll never know.
Blimey, I was planning a little trip to Cloudwater this afternoon to test some of these arguments but then I looked at their prices.
Have they changed from the £3 for everything model? (Not the same sized glass for all beers) Perfect tasting sizes
I think I've paid near £8 for some of the limit collabs from the likes of Verdant.
Verdant's brewery is nearby but it's cheaper to go over to Truro Red Elephant Beer Cellar, they are cheaper.... Not had a can of Pulp is a while, might have to treat myself....
Maybe One more PSI was a nice DIPA
Where do you get your shoes in
Trickers factory outlet, they used to have a shop on eBay but now it’s online, I also have some RTW George Cleverley (made by Crockett& Jones) their bespoke are way above my budget.
ha! mother in law works at crocketts... would rather buy from tk max (and do)!
jeffery west now theres a quality boot.
Compared to £4 for a pissy pint of lager I'd pay £8 all day. Cloudwater is nice.
Local off licence does 3 for £5 on slightly out of best before date.
Was walking past the local craft beer shop and came out with a can of Marble Damage plan IPA, 7.1% 330ml can for just under £6.
I know I should have got a big can of cloudwater at 8-9% but I’m not a huge drinker and I was after a smaller can.
will drink it to tomorrow and report back. I have been to the Marble inn in Manchester and bought their beers before just not at £18/litre.
I just drank 4 500ml tins of Balter IIPA. 5 of your english pounds a can.
at 8% they've done the trick.
Oooo that sounds good, the regular Balter was good too.
it's my new favourite brewery.
You not been over to Hobart then?
I shall be drinking in my all time favourite Pub of real ale awesomeness, at £3.20 a pint of nectar, this weekend.
Welcome to join me 😜