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Hi Jon,
Sorry, I missed out a prepositon - meant to say effects of electromagnet polllution on organisms at a molecular level. .
Again, thanks for taking the time to respond. It's honestly hard for me to follow the technical language you use, since I have a very limited knowledge of physics, but what you're saying checks out with my reading this morning.
It will be interesting to see how this issue develops over time although I'm not optimisitc that people will be convinced. It's sad to see but public trust seems to be at an all time low. Although in some ways, I can understand why.
With regards to the athermal effects on DNA, here is a link.
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.pathophys.2009.01.006
Here is another study which describe various case studies involving the effect of athermal radition (I think?) on wildlife.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0928468009000066#bib4
"In the United Kingdom a decline of several species of urban birds, especially sparrows, has recently happened [26]. The sparrow population in England has decreased in the last 30 years from 24 million to less than 14. The more abrupt decline, with 75% descent has taken place from 1994 to 2002. In 2002, the house sparrow was added to the Red List of U.K. endangered species [27]. This coincides with the rollout of mobile telephony and the possible relationship of both circumstances should be investigated."
It's quite an interesting read.
Anyway, I really need to get back to my day job! Cheers for the links =)
FM
Amir Khan’s joined the conspiracy club…
To be fair he has spent most of his life getting smacked around the head...
So, now you've evidence of why 5G isn't harmful to humans, here you are again trotting off into Sparrow population decline. There's some pretty well established studies into why it's happening, as it's been observed all across Europe.
You could look at the re-emergence of Sparrowhawk populations (clues in the name about what these predators like to eat). You could look at garden loss, habitat loss (pavement trees in particular), insect decline, changes in urban pollution, domestic cat predation...But no, let's instead wonder on how one particular species of bird is being effected by EMR.
Care to think on why the Corvid species aren't being effected? As they are (along with woodpeckers and wood pigeons) increasing in populations?
This coincides with the rollout of mobile telephony and the possible relationship of both circumstances should be investigated
except Cellnet and Racal Vodafone were broadcasting best part of a decade before.
and TV decades before that
and mobile telphony eventually took over former spectrum from TV transmissions?
correlation != causation
I cba to read such a study, when I have real science and engineering to do. But if it is scientific, I assume they must have captured sparrows and irradiated them at different levels and frequencies, and compared their behaviour to a control group of birds under lab conditions.
And repeated the same test with other species (of birds and other creatures), and also correlations with other 20th century progress?
although I’m not optimisitc that people will be convinced
sadly, they never will be. It only takes one person to exhibit some kind of doubt, and that doubt will always be there regardless of how many academic studies are done to disprove such doubt. And when it's an attention seeker / fake scientist, that doubt can spread virally.
Always odd how its always the latest things these people go for, think the last one was smart meters which I think are between 15million to 20 million installed in the UK, havent seen any health issues linked to these yet!
*except for installer errors causing explosions or fires!
Scanning social media and seeing stuff like this really makes me think when did the lunatics take over the asylum!
What an utterly depressing thread.
Thanks for trying Jon.
No worries Fatmountain, I thought you might have missed a word but just wanted to check. If you did think it was organism causing this then I would have been out of this conversation at that point!
It will be interesting to see how this issue develops over time although I’m not optimisitc that people will be convinced.
This has developed over time. Over decades and for lower frequencies over a century. It is clear that people will not be convinced as people are predisposed to question and in the case of thing they cannot understand make up an explanation for what they are experiencing. This is the case with every type of conspiracy theory. The not understanding comment was not aimed at you by the way; christ, there are many things I have no understanding of and constantly try to explain away to alleviate my concerns/fears (often wrongly) too.
Unfortunately the first link you posted doesn't work for me.
I'll try and unpick the second on a bit and explain things as best I can. From the second link:
Abstract
Electromagnetic fields (EMF), in both ELF (extremely low frequency) and radio frequency (RF) ranges, activate the cellular stress response, a protective mechanism that induces the expression of stress response genes, e.g., HSP70, and increased levels of stress proteins, e.g., hsp70. The 20 different stress protein families are evolutionarily conserved and act as ‘chaperones’ in the cell when they ‘help’ repair and refold damaged proteins and transport them across cell membranes. Induction of the stress response involves activation of DNA, and despite the large difference in energy between ELF and RF, the same cellular pathways respond in both frequency ranges. Specific DNA sequences on the promoter of the HSP70 stress gene are responsive to EMF, and studies with model biochemical systems suggest that EMF could interact directly with electrons in DNA. While low energy EMF interacts with DNA to induce the stress response, increasing EMF energy in the RF range can lead to breaks in DNA strands. It is clear that in order to protect living cells, EMF safety limits must be changed from the current thermal standard, based on energy, to one based on biological responses that occur long before the threshold for thermal changes.
Oh, where to begin?!? This was a paper written by Blank after he entered his "lost the plot" phase so should be read as such.
There is no difference between ELF and RF ranges. RF is simply Radio Frequency and covers all ranges from ELF up to and including mm wave stuff.
I don't know a lot (read sod all) about stress responses in proteins but what is clear is that Blank does not mention anywhere the mechanism for how EM radiation exposure may "activate" the stress response. Neither does he mention how he tested his hypotheses nor how he dew his conclusions. Therefore this is entirely unfounded from the perspective of this paper.
There is no difference in energy between EFL and RF. The difference in energy in an EM wave (or field) is a function of frequency, Tx power, antenna gain, pathloss amongst many other thing that need to be considered in a propagation link budget.
He states that "suggest that EMF could interact directly with electrons in DNA.". These studies are not directly referenced. They "suggest" that some "could" have an effect but he provides no evidence to back up this assertion.
HE suggests that EM radiated fields can "break DNA". All I can assume (because he doesn't actually say so) is that this is through the mechanism of disrupting the electrons within the DNA. If this were the case and the field were high enough to do this then there would definitely be a significant heating effect in the region of the damage. Bear in mind that electron vibration by very high concentrated EM radiated field is what causes heating in microwave ovens then if you are vibrating the electrons in DNA enough to cause them to vibrate (and as actually asserted to break out of the electron field!) then you would most certainly need a very high concentrated EM field and you would know about it as that part of you would be suffering significant radiation burns.
Note, there have been some non lethal weapons developed which do exactly this. They cause the electrons in the tissue to vibrated and thus heat up a small amount. This causes you pain and to feel on fire. They are very unpleasant to experience. However, during significant amounts of testing there was no long term physiological damage or effect from being exposed.
Lastly he states that "to one based on biological responses that occur long before the threshold for thermal changes." from the above explanation it should be clear that there is not a biological response (and neither has he presented any evidence of one) before the threshold for thermal changes.
Finally from your quote there is no evidence presented to suggest mobile telephony has anything to do with songbird decline in the UK. It only states that the two things happened at approximately the same time (and even then only measured between 1994 and 2002; what has happened post 2002 to songbird numbers?). The only pertinent sentence in that quote is:
This coincides with the rollout of mobile telephony and the possible relationship of both circumstances should be investigated.
They are correct, it clearly does coincide and it would be really interesting to see the "possible" relationship of both circumstance. So basically they have formed a link then clearly state that they have not investigated any link beyond that both things happened at approximately the same time.
And the last bit is the crux of the problem. Two things happened at approximately the same time therefore they are related. What other things happened at the same time? In the case above there might have been an increase in the cat birth rate in 1993 (after all 8 years is about the lifespan of a cat).
Correlation and causation are two very different things.
EDIT. If possible Fatmountain would it be possible to say what your day job is in academia?
I am saying that EMR is a genuine concern for scientistis and there is widespread consensus amongst scientists about the risks of EMR – given that we are now exposed to it constantly from ‘the cradle to the grave’.
The thing with this is, the word "radiation" sounds scary and the fact that you assert that we are "now" exposed to it rather suggests to me that you don't know what EMR is. Radio waves are a form of EMR. So is the IR beam on your TV remote, UV blacklights, X-rays, and sunlight. I don't recall anyone catching autism when switching over to Channel 4.
Some of these can be harmful, or harmful given sufficient exposure, but just going "radiation bad" is both a massive oversimplification and a great logic leap, the Earth has been "exposed to it constantly from ‘the cradle to the grave’" since before dinosaurs existed.
It’s honestly hard for me to follow the technical language you use, since I have a very limited knowledge of physics
I'm honestly not saying this to be mean, but if by your own admission you have a "very limited knowledge of physics" might it not be an idea to trust in what people who do have a very good understanding are telling you, rather than coming up with ever more desperate 'evidence' which reinforces your own beliefs?
You're asking for explanations of things you don't understand - and that's laudable, learning things is good - but it's not always possible for people to condense decades of their own learning and knowledge into a paragraph which is readily accessible by a layman. Eg, if someone wishes to understand PhD-level maths they should first learn GCSE maths - how do you explain calculus to someone who doesn't know BODMAS?
It's human nature for people to want simple answers to complicated questions, but it's OK to not understand things which may be beyond one's understanding. Rejecting that concept is how religions start.
Oh, and,
The Lancet is a fairly reliable source of medical journals. Other disciplines, not so much. The assumption that an article must be nice and accurate just because it's in The Lancet is flawed.
You're the type of person that is in denial that the earth is flat.
Cougar - I actually had to google what BODMAS was. Now I feel like a dumbass 😕
The Brick - That sentence is hurting my brain! 🙂
There was a great Infinite Monkey Cage podcast about conspiracy theories. Once people start to believe in them, trying to convince them the theories are rubbish is incredibly difficult. Education needs to be done before the conspiracy theories take hold.
The media seem to have been pretty good about coronavirus, but there are so many ways people get information now I guess stuff still gets through.
Wait until we get laods of people refusing the vaccine! Apparently the aluminium in the vaccine reacts with the 5g, part of the NWO Bill Gate Soros something or other
Social Media gives megaphones to morons. Sad but true.
On of the things the government has to do as part of rolling out "new" parts of the spectrum is to buy up any kit that would be made obsolete by it. It's a nice little windfall if your company happens to have kept hold of some decades old kit that runs in the same frequency range as they pay something like 2/3 of RRP!
It's not "new", they just re-allocate it from somewhere else.
So unless you can find evidence of declining sparrow populations around Tv/film studio's using radio mics on that frequency, your theory is rubbish.
David Icke is streaming live right now on YouTube about this.
His channel is LondonReal.
He is saying that Corona virus doesn’t exist and it’s all the fault of 5G and that CV-19 is just the cover ‘story’.
It’s surreal!
On the bright side, there must be some pretty convincing cell tower analysis data as to which morons attacked the pylons, unless they had the foresight to leave their phones at home, which I doubt...
63,000 folk watching David Icke! What a crock...
63,000 folk watching David Icke! What a crock…
62,999 now, it popped up on my YouTube page and I gave it two minutes for the giggles ... 🙂
I know what you mean, I watched for about the same, and it's either some weird drug powered stream of consciousness or a really odd live-art piece.
Can't make up my mind.
I was reading an old boingboing article about a book, ‘Republic of Lies - The rise of conspiracy theories’ and the comments section had some really well thought-out replies -
https://flipboard.com/@phasmainmachina/conspiracy-kolopd3fz?from=share
One post in particular I really liked:
I’d put the blame more squarely on social media than the broader internet. The internet helped me find things I like. Social media helped things I didn’t like find me.
The sparrow population in England has decreased in the last 30 years from 24 million to less than 14.
Couldn’t possibly have anything to do with cats, could it? 5G ones obviously.
In-vitro studies should be taken with a huge pinch of salt in anything like this.
Tbh I’m really missing out on 5g, I’d stupidly thought it was a way of getting porn onto your phone quicker but it’s all about IOT and AI and a Matrix as well according to that Vodafone guy when it’s not turning you into a virus generating station.
Tbh I’m really missing out on 5g, I’d stupidly thought it was a way of getting porn onto your phone quicker but it’s all about IOT and AI and a Matrix as well according to that Vodafone guy when it’s not turning you into a virus generating station.
It'll have more bandwidth, but the argument follows that like nuclear electricity it'll be too cheap to meter, so you can put a sim card in your light bulb rather than having to connect it to the wi-fi, then to alexa, then to the alexa app on your phone etc. With 5G everything will just work, and spy on you.
A bit like most phones from 3G onwards came with hundreds/thousands/unlimited minutes and texts whereas 1G/2G there wasn't the bandwidth to do that. 5G will have sufficient bandwidth that all the smaller uses become effectively free and you'll just pay for porn/netflix.
Isn't the decrease in Sparrows alot to do with gaps in old house roofs being closed up when replaced and repaired to improve heat retention and UPVc facias preventing access to the nesting sites.
I spent 20 years working around UHF radio systems and a 2G network. Apart from the odd RF burn on the fingers (don't key up a radio with a finger over the end of the open antenna lead........) I seem to have suffered no ill health. Some of my colleagues have spent the best part of 40 years working on anything from very high power broad band jammers for the RAF(Vulcans/tornadoes etc), to microwave point to point links to mobile phone networks 2/3/4G and everything in-between.
Now in this admittedly small pool the only odd thing that we've noticed was that all had daughters whilst working on the tools but when they've come off the tools into management roles they've had sons. Also we don't seem to suffer any more health problems compared to the rest of the telecoms staff we've work around.
Also I will add the caveat that most of what I've worked on is is at longer wavelengths than most 5G systems, microwave stuff falls into the same bands that 5G can use, 5G has a very wide spectrum allocated to it, 600Mhz-6GHz and 24GHz to 86GHz.
I was going to say much the same as Ming, 10+years working in mobile comms from base stations to rigging towers.
Never had any issues health wise, any time we go near a tower or Arqiva rooftop site now you need to wear a NARDA. These are designed to alarm when exposure levels are reached, very rarely do they ever go off!
If higher frequencies are really an issue then I've got bad news.
The Earth is bathed in radiation in the 430-770 THz range, that's 1,000 times higher frequency than 5G.
An interesting read about how a conspiracy theory spread in South Africa about a C19 vaccine and Bill Gates:
https://www.news24.com/Analysis/fact-check-how-a-lie-about-bill-gates-and-a-vaccine-for-the-coronavirus-exploded-on-twitter-20200407
That's a really informative response. By the way, my job is working with international students for UK universities, mostly under-grad but sometimes pre-masters, mainly with their academic writing, referencing, what journals are, etc. None of that makes me qualified to understand the maths or physics, I know, but I do know the differnece between sources designed to entertain and those designed to inform. Although that said, I must admit I feel I've over-estimated the scope of academic journals insofar as I just assumed they were reliable by virtue of being academic journals. You live and learn 🙂
I don't think I've rejected what Jon was saying at all, but I have questioned it and I think I've arrived that a position where I think the information is reasonable and it checks out with my (limited) reading elsewhere.
The thing with this is, the word “radiation” sounds scary and the fact that you assert that we are “now” exposed to it rather suggests to me that you don’t know what EMR is. Radio waves are a form of EMR. So is the IR beam on your TV remote, UV blacklights, X-rays, and sunlight. I don’t recall anyone catching autism when switching over to Channel 4.
My understanding was that 5g operates differently compared to a TV remote, so using that to assert that 5g is safe is not logical, as you are basically saying that because sunlight is safe, sunlight is EMR, therefore all EMR is safe.
Likewise, you say that EMR is natural, and I understand that it is, but again, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but EMR emitted by phones, electrical equipment, wi-fi routers, etc., differs in intensity and location to natural ambient sources, so asserting that just because natural sources of EMR are safe, therefore 'manmade' sources are safe, is also faulty.
Cheers 🙂
FM
So to summarise, there are no international students and you are bored
where you are saying because sunlight is safe, sunlight is EMR, therefore all EMR is safe.
Sunlight isn't safe though, all it takes is a couple of hours and it will burn you...The radiation coming off the sun is about 1500 times more powerful that the radiation coming off your phone, or from the antenna. So if anything, it's completely the other way around...
Ha, it's all online now actually Steve, but you're not far off. I'm supposed to be finishing my thesis too, but I'm finding papers about electromagnet radiation far more interesting. Maybe I should have studied physics instead!
Hi Nick, is that opposed to being only somewhat the other way around? 😀
Another one on Hydroxychloroquine the big orange idiot is going on about:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/06/hydroxychloroquine-trump-coronavirus-drug
Fatmountain, I've nothing to fear from "un-natural" sources of EMR, why would I? All the things that folk are tying themselves in knots about are all at the microwave end of the spectrum, and the teeny power outputs of WiFi or phones are, they just can't do any damage, it's like saying a 3 metre sailing dingy and a US Navy aircraft carrier are both boats, and therefore should be treated as equally dangerous, it's just nonsense.
My understanding was that 5g operates differently compared to a TV remote, so using that to assert that 5g is safe is not logical, as you are basically saying that because sunlight is safe, sunlight is EMR, therefore all EMR is safe.
Yes, the TV remote mostly works on infra red, the part of the spectrum generally associated with transmitting heat (you can transmit energy as any wavelength you like, but most things will emit/absorb in that spectrum so you can precieve it as heat, standing in front of a 100W microwave will get you pretty toasty, just like a 100W heat lamp.
5G is "higher frequency" than previous mobile phone bands. That's true.
The Netherlands are higher than Death Valley, but you won't get altitude sickness in Amsterdam.
It's all very low frequency, non ionizing radiation.
5G just uses the old analogue TV frequencies. On the spectrum below it's 2.4x10^9 to 9x10^9, from the middle to the right hand edge of the words "TV Waves" on this picture.
And we're talking about 250mW.
Modern mobile phones actually throttle the signal strength up or down depending on how far they are from the tower, so the proliferation of towers actually means lower power.
My understanding was that 5g operates differently compared to a TV remote, so using that to assert that 5g is safe is not logical, as you are basically saying that because sunlight is safe, sunlight is EMR, therefore all EMR is safe.
That's not what I'm saying at all. Some forms of EMR are demonstrably very very bad for you indeed. It's rather that you cannot automatically assume something is bad because it contains scary words. This skates perilously into the realms of people being afraid of "chemicals," vaccines containing "mercury," or the discussion I had on here a week or two back with someone saying they avoided processed food but couldn't actually define what they meant by "processed" and got slightly defensive when I asked them to explain.
Likewise, you say that EMR is natural, and I understand that it is, but again, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, but EMR emitted by phones, electrical equipment, wi-fi routers, etc., differs in intensity and location to natural ambient sources, so asserting that just because natural sources of EMR are safe, therefore ‘manmade’ sources are safe, is also faulty.
This is the same argument only using different words, that's not what I said. I wasn't making any comparisons between natural and man-made EMR, I was merely pointing out that natural radiation exists - in large quantities - regardless of how many Gs you have in your phone system.
Photons are Photons, naturally occurring or man made, it makes no difference.
The actual physics cares not a jot for what people say on Facebook or think up while they are knitting yogurt.
The majority of EM radiation on earth comes from the big yellow ball in the sky, it produces radiation across a broad range of the EM spectrum, some if you can see, some of it you can feel, and some it will damage your skin after a relatively short exposure.
Sunlight is really powerful. That big yellow bastard in the sky produces 420 yottawatts of power and by the time it reaches Earth it works out as roughly 1000W of EM radiation per square meter (less in Scotland obviously)
EM radiation from the sun is much higher frequency than radio waves including 5G (1,000, to 10,000 higher), and the energy that EM radiation contains is directly related to its frequency in a really simple equation:
E=hf
So if you find 5G frightening then for your own sake, and every ones sanity, never leave the house
richmtb
The Earth is bathed in radiation in the 430-770 THz range, that’s 1,000 times higher frequency than 5G.
I've just used this in a discussion with an anti-vaxxer friend in Oz.
I may have been a bit unkind - I didn't mention the sun, just that scientists have discovered it has extra-terrestrial origins... 🙂
I may have been a bit unkind – I didn’t mention the sun, just that scientists have discovered it has extra-terrestrial origins…
To really freak them out you should have also mentioned that radiation in these high frequencies has also been detected from the new range of smart light bulbs
I love the fact MRI's is short for magnetic resonance imaging when it's proper title is nuclear magnetic resonating imaging but the nuclear parts freaks people out so it's dropped.
fatmountain, do you have any academic scientific background? You're clearly articulate but seem to have a pretty sketchy understanding of some physics basics. Good you're constructively engaging though, learn from some of the other posters, it's good to know there are many on here who do have some basic understanding.
It's important as a society we do dispel much of the made up internet wisdom and half truths, life is going to get ever more technically driven and people need to be able to objectively make their own assessments as to whether advances are good or not.
The sparrow population in England has decreased in the last 30 years from 24 million to less than 14.
Isn’t the decrease in Sparrows alot to do with gaps in old house roofs being closed up when replaced and repaired to improve heat retention and UPVc facias preventing access to the nesting sites.
Yup, it’s pretty much a given that House Sparrows, which have adopted roof spaces for nesting in over the last couple of millennia, have been royally shafted by the government encouraging people to seal up pretty much every opening around house roofing in the interests of thermal efficiency and protecting the environment.
Starling populations have crashed over roughly the same period, for much the same reason, and also changes to farming practices, and swift and house martin populations also because house owners knock their nests down because the birds shit on the paths outside.
Or it could be due to mobile phone masts. Or satellite dishes. Or how about CB radios, they became popular about thirty years ago!
Sorry, I missed this.
I do know the differnece between sources designed to entertain and those designed to inform. Although that said, I must admit I feel I’ve over-estimated the scope of academic journals insofar as I just assumed they were reliable by virtue of being academic journals. You live and learn
The key word there is "intend." With the best of wills in the world I could intend to perform open heart surgery, would you fancy being my first patient?
In your defence, it is a minefield. "Peer reviewed" for instance, well, who are these peers? Are they leading experts in their field, or a set of quacks looking to sell some books? Andrew Wakefield's paper linking MMR with autism was peer reviewed and published (I think actually in the Lancet but I might have made that up), then later everyone bar Wakefield himself revoked their support as it became recognised for the shoddy piece of pseudo-research that it is.
This is what I was getting at before. Robust studies are difficult and crap ones widespread. How can you - or I - hope to validate the conclusions of articles on very complicated technical subjects? We'd have to spend a lot of time cross-referencing sources, analysing their methodology, essentially becoming researchers ourselves, and most of us are probably not qualified to do that.
So our choice then becomes either to accept that experts probably know more about their areas of expertise than we do, or we go "yeah but radiation, but wavelengths, but dead sparrows" and start watching David Icke videos.
Try Googling "bird population pesticides" or similar.
Thre's a creator on youtube called "Thunderfoot" whose channel i've subbed to.He debunks all this crap in an easy to understand way,which is just as well considering my limited intellect.
He has released a vid about CV19,worth a look.
@Fatmountain - Glad you have found some of the information here useful.
Despite some of the derisive comments on here, I think it is laudable that you are willing to listen, learn and question those who provide information rather than just take it a face value. If a lot of people in the UK were willing to do the same then this would be a much better country for it.
Apologies for not providing any paper references yet. I was just going to pull a load from my thesis but I seem to have lost the soft copy and the hard copy is in my office at work where I can't get it at the moment.
If I can help explain things any further then please don't hesitate to ask and I'll do my best to answer.
I think it is laudable that you are willing to listen, learn and question those who provide information rather than just take it a face value.
If it's not clear from my own previous comments, I agree wholeheartedly with this. Asking questions is a Good Thing, I'd not want to discourage that in anyone.
All I was trying to say was, it's OK to not know things. There are many things we don't know either as individuals or as a species. It's great to be curious, the danger comes when we're a little too keen to fill the gaps with any old fantasy notions that takes our fancy.
Sometimes the answer to "I don't understand..." is, "here, let me try and explain."
Sometimes the answer to "I don't understand..." is, "correct."
What a fantastic thread. Truly educational, laugh out loud funny in places and representative of the fact that the wider community of STW users is made up of a fascinating mix of experts across an enormous range of subject matter. Also the patience and integrity of the vast majority of forumites on here.
Fair play to Fat Mountain for having the courage to ask the questions, question the answers (and the answerers), stay civil in the face of some occasionally fairly derogatory comments (and a couple of very funny ones too) and be honest enough to admit how his understanding has changed in the face if the evidence put to him. After all, as a result of his desire to 'understand' (something I'm often guilty of) the amount that I at least now understand about 5G (not that I ever subscribe to any of the conspiracy theory bollix) is far greater than it was, or indeed than in was ever likely to be.
And finally, a senior manager at Vodafone who can't pronounce Whoarewe / HuhAway / WhoAwe-i etc etc can take a running jump. His laboured explanation about the cells producing viruses that the body expels made me laugh out loud, and I only scraped a C in GCSE Biology because my girlfriend did my coursework.
Keep up the good work chaps!
No none whatsoever! I hope I was open about that from the start although I do teach at a university and I've done graduate and post-grad research, but I'm in no what shape or form a natural scientist. Coming back to it as an adult, I find it fascinating as I see the world in a completely different way than I did as a fourteen-year old. I loved physics as a kid but the science teachers at my secondary school put an end to that.
@jon,
Likewise for being patient. No worries about the references. If anything, it seems we'll have a lot of time on our hands for the foreseeable future.
So our choice then becomes either to accept that experts probably know more about their areas of expertise than we do, or we go “yeah but radiation, but wavelengths, but dead sparrows” and start watching David Icke videos."
Couger, well that's a bit of a false dilemma, but you're right about basically having to have faith in experts given they've spent their entire lives researching whatever. I also agree with what you say about journals (I'll be able to share a more nuanced view with my students in the future!). I have to say though, sometimes conspiracy theories are true. I used to tell everyone we are being spied on through our phones and laptops. People said I should get my tinfoil hat out. Then, with Snowden, we found out it was all true and a whole lot more too.
All I can do with 5g is read some papers on EMF and then cross-reference things to make an informed decision. Beyond that I just don't have the time to learn physics and maths from GCSE to PhD. In my opinion, the blame is partly with governments for not teaching critical thinking and in many cases outright exploiting ignorance - 'we've had enough of experts' - seems not, now we have a global pandemic on our hands. Gove really is reprehensible.
David Icke is far out but I find his conviction and theories amusing (although if you take his theory as analogy, it's quite accurate i.e. an elite jetting around the world abducting children). I like especially the inter-dimensional reptiles. I read a fascinating book about DMT recently that talks about these 'lizards'. The book's called The Spirit Moleucule and investigates the drug known as DMT. A lot of people who take DMT independantly claim they meet and communicate with "high-tech reptiles". I'm not saying I believe this, but as the author points out, it sure is an interesting phenomena.
well that’s a bit of a false dilemma, but you’re right about basically having to have faith in experts given they’ve spent their entire lives researching whatever.
I guess where I was going with this is "tell me more about it" is a better response than "I read something on the Internet and I think you might be wrong." (Not that I'm saying that's what you were doing, just generalising.)
I also agree with what you say about journals (I’ll be able to share a more nuanced view with my students in the future!).
Look into False Authority Syndrome. (-:
I have to say though, sometimes conspiracy theories are true. But mostly they are not.
Honestly, yes, this is correct but the ones that are true (like MKUltra) are very much exceptional outliers.
I don't claim to have authority over anything. Many of my students are doing post-graduate research in engineering or sciences and have far more specialised knowledge about their disciplines than I ever will. I help them with topic sentences and how to avoid comma splices and various other things. I don't think highly of myself at all.
Ah, sorry, you've got the wrong end of the stick, I should have been clearer. I wasn't suggesting you were a false authority, rather that we're more inclined to believe people in positions of perceived authority when they're out of their depth. Eg, someone in a local police force sending out scam warnings that are in fact hoaxes.
Ah ok I get you! Have you seen the film Compliance by any chance? I guess if they made a film about false authority, it would be that (it's a true story too). It's the only film I've seen where the majority of the peolpe walked out, not because it was shit, but becasue it was virtually unbearable to watch.
All I was trying to say was, it’s OK to not know things.
I feel I sometimes infuriate people by answering "I don't know" to a question rather than speculate or guess.
@slowoldman I get the same at work when people ask very involved questions, without providing enough information and then want a yes/no answer. They are clearly not looking to know that 'it depends'!
Matt
fatmountain
Member
I don’t claim to have authority over anything. Many of my students are doing post-graduate research in engineering or sciences and have far more specialised knowledge about their disciplines than I ever will. I help them with topic sentences and how to avoid comma splices and various other things. I don’t think highly of myself at all.
But in an earlier post you claimed to be a "trained Academic"... an Academic is someone who holds and advanced degree such as a PhD, someone who understands academic rigour, critical thinking and the ability to construct facts/theory from multiple, often competing sources.
I don't want to put you down here, but a non-lecturing teacher at a university who holds no degree is no more an Academic than the man who comes to service my boiler is an Engineer. You are, no doubt, a skilled professional and work at an academic institution, but whilst your interest is laudable, please do not abuse the titles. Those of us who've worked hard to achieve them know that they're abused enough in the UK as it is.
matt_bl
Member
@slowoldman I get the same at work when people ask very involved questions, without providing enough information and then want a yes/no answer. They are clearly not looking to know that ‘it depends’!Matt
ha that's funny - i had a meeting with our new chairman a while back, he was asking which i can understand to be striaght forward quetions. The prbelem with this, is that there are many variables that affect the answer so, i could onyl answer with a "depends" and then give the rationale behind it.. in the end he just said i should stop being a politician- still not entirely sure what he meant by that.
This is worth a read. Not directly related to the OP, but it's an interesting read and touches on a lot of what we were discussing around the worth of published papers and the spread of misinformation.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/06/hydroxychloroquine-trump-coronavirus-drug
i could onyl answer with a “depends” and then give the rationale behind it.. in the end he just said i should stop being a politician
Having come into contact with all levels of corporate manglement, I believe there might be some mileage in replacing people that elementally require and demand binary answers with some sort of device or or mechanical contraption that can make decisions based on binary inputs...
This is worth a read. Not directly related to the OP, but it’s an interesting read and touches on a lot of what we were discussing around the worth of published papers and the spread of misinformation
Good article.
This was a bit of a head scratcher.
The idea that hydroxychloroquine is “the cure” has taken off within certain online communities, including among anti-vaxxers
The mental contortions you must have to go through to convince yourself that one drug is a panacea to a global pandemic, while another is a consiracy by "big pharma" to poison your children is quite something.
A bit like the mental gymnastics that must take place to post garbage on social media about 5G from a mobile phone or wi-fi connected device.
Its almost like these people want to be mocked.
.
Dr. Rashid Buttar BLASTS Gates, Fauci, EXPOSES Fake Pandemic Numbers As Economy Collapses
Don't he's a fan of 5g either!
"Rashid Buttar is an American osteopathic physician from Charlotte, North Carolina. He is known for his controversial use of chelation therapy for numerous conditions, including autism and cancer. He has been reprimanded by the North Carolina Board of Medical Examiners for unethical treatment of patients."
From Wiki - I stopped at 'osteopath', as that's a sufficient level of quackery to suggest anything else he promotes is also bollocks.
Look into False Authority Syndrome. (-:
That’s Trump, that is! It’s odd how Gates has somehow become the whipping boy for the whole C19 situation.
It’s odd how Gates has somehow become the whipping boy for the whole C19 situation
Gates is funding research for a vaccine and also funded a conference (event 201) last year to tell governments how to handle a pandemic so is deeply involved in the current situation. Gates is going to make the covid vaccine his next version of windows. He will license it and get governments to insist every citizen is vaccinated before they can travel outside of their country. He will have some kind of license that you have to present for travel (document or chip). And when he's made billions from it he will create vaccine 2.0 then 3.0 then xd and vista etc. and everyone will have to upgrade.
He is set to make more billions than anyone thought was possible and he has the governments of the world assisting him willingly. Because it will take several months to develop the vaccine and he doesn't want people building immunity naturally the lockdown scenario was presented at his conference. By the time freedom of movement is relaxed he will be almost ready with his first vaccine.
Yet more dangerous conspiracy bollocks from the US.
I thought I’d update this thread after just reading a Wired UK article in Flipboard - this insane 5G/C19 conspiracy crap isn’t just spreading, it’s now resulting in Openreach engineers working on broadband installations being threatened and attacked by members of the public!
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/5g-coronavirus-conspiracy-theory-attacks
White Nancy above Bollington, Cheshire has been on the receiving end of these 5G/C19 conspirasist bell-ends. Lots of graffiti painted on White Nancy and the stone flags around it. It has Grade 2 listed status and was built to commemorate the Victory of the battle of Waterloo.
Only the other week it was illuminated in blue as a nod to the NHS and other essential workers
I thought I’d update this thread after just reading a Wired UK article
Came here to post the same thing. Quote for the TLDR crowd:
Since March 30, there have been 77 arson attacks on mobile phone masts across the UK, with staff working on mobile infrastructure also reporting 180 incidents of abuse. There have been 90 additional incidents of sabotage reported, ranging from failed arson attacks to attempts to damage mobile network infrastructure in other ways.
I read coverage of one of these arson attacks where they successfully destroyed a transmitter that had been put in specifically to give better mobile internet to people in hospital who cannot receive visitors due to Covid. The destroyed transmitter was not even 5G. Very few of them are, as that article explains.
This kind of nonsense is partly why I waste time disassembling flat earthers.
It's all the same brain rot. An anti-intellectual anti-science movement that is steadily growing as people no longer understand the world around them.
In case it's not been posted:
An equally fascinating and terrifying insight into how this shit gets "published".
We had some Spanish bint over here a few years back convincing everyone they were being affected by infrasound generated by the marine turbines being tested nearby. Of course all her papers, and those of her cohorts, were published via the same "conference" papers hosted by some opaque institute in Spain. No doubt well funded shills but they had a staggering amount of people convinced in the community councils including the local hacks that wouldn't know investigative journalism if it shat in their coffee. Some of the ignorance on display was bonkers, totally disputing peer reviewed proof it was crap because "they're all in on it". Sadly before that piece was published.
@squirrelking - I can’t bring myself to watch that video, I’ll probably have an aneurism or a coronary! Either that or my teeth grinding will keep the neighbourhood awake...
I can imagine these ****s destroying a local wired broadband installation, then bitching loudly and at length about the loss of their broadband, stopping them spreading anti-5G bullshit!
Seen that Defcon vid before. It's very very concerning. Definitely worth a watch to learn how activists and lobby groups use those methods to persuade governments to change laws.
Sadly it will take at least 1 fatality to get anyone to do anything proper about the 5G stuff, rather than just Facebook finally getting around to taking down 1 "personality" some time after their highly publicised event, and conveniently forgetting about all the extremist organisations that are brainwashing exactly the same way.
Just seen a depressing post on Facebook going on about Gates creating the virus and the end civil liberty. Clicked on their profile. They are an NHS Nurse....
@ampthill was the post related to the Plandemics documentary or Judy Mikovitz? It seems to be all the rage at the moment being a combination of antivax, world domination, man made covid, etc.
Just seen a depressing post on Facebook going on about Gates creating the virus and the end civil liberty. Clicked on their profile. They are an NHS Nurse…
This is why I’ve been avoiding Fb for the last couple of years...😫
Mate has just sent me what must be the same post on fb, hes arguing with someone else about it & wants to make sure theres nothing to it, where to start!
I’ve noticed a few phone masts around here now have signs on them indicating that they’re not 5G. The world we live in 🙁