[Closed] 44k in debt....

So get a private house share for much less.
Unless you're telling me that accomodation around Sheffield is more costly than my nice part of Cambridgeshire, which I sincerely doubt.

Surely anyone who warrants a university education can work that out.

So you'd have a first year undergrad try to organise a house share in a cesspit, in a town they don't know, where they don't know anybody?

Surely anyone who warrants a university education can work out the meaning of "misanthrope".

But shouldn't WE be voting for our kids futures? Not the baby boomers that really did "never have it so good"?

Our kids are effectively mortgaging their futures to pay for the retirements that their grandparents were promised.

My parents' generation had it much better than me. I had it much better than my kids will.

My solution is to save like hell so I can give them a start in life unburden by mountains of debt.

New HMO rules in a lot of university cities mean it's not as simple to rent a house to share as it once was.

Well, on a tangent slightly, I accumulated £21k of debt in my 20's. I consolodated it about 3 years ago to pay it off over 7 years, takes up a 1/3 of my wage. It has put a huge block on my life, I can't afford to live in my own place, go on expensive holidays etc. When it's gone, it'll be a huge huge weight off my shoulders. And what do I have to show for it? My bike and my camera - the rest was built up debt on cars and credit cards.

thestabiliser - Member

ahwiles - you're talking rubbish

example?

graduates at our place start on £23k, that's £2k over the £21k threshold.

they pay back £200/year, that's £17/month.

(ok, it's 9% over the threshold, so it's actually less than i'm suggesting)

That's not in perpituity though is it? They will earn more and pay more as they move on and all they will have done in those early years will have been to mitigate some of the compound interest. So by the end of the grad scheme 44k could 45k(they will likely also be paying off debt from living expenses for a number of years too). Basically it's got to be paid back at some point, whci gives you less to save and less to spend. Those staying on middle incomes being worse affected by paying more for longer.

aracer - The debt which is related to the abolition of grants rather than the introduction of tuition fees? Well I think you can actually blame that one on Facha, but it might even pre-date her.

You can blame her for the reduction of grants, but the final means tested grants were finished off by Labour in '98, when they introduced full loans and the £1,000 a year tuition fees.

[quote=thisisnotaspoon ]Average graduate satarting sallary in 2013 was £29,500 IIRC

Hmm - maybe I should delete the last 20 years of my CV and apply for graduate jobs. Oh hang on, I've just remembered I'm an engineer.

Its sad that so many people see the only benefit of a good education as a higher earning potential.

Sometimes its fun just to learn stuff or, at postgrad level, contribute to the sum of human knowledge.

Can't do that anymore, unless you are already loaded.

So you'd have a first year undergrad try to organise a house share in a cesspit, in a town they don't know, where they don't know anybody?

No, I'd have them do it in reasonable accommodation, there is no need to live in a cesspit.

Maybe kids these days need their arses wiping for them a bit more. 😕

[quote=st colin ]And what do I have to show for it? My bike and my camera - the rest was built up debt on cars and credit cards.

Sounds more worthwhile than a degree

thestabiliser - Member

Basically it's got to be paid back at some point,

no, it doesn't.

cancelled after 30years iirc.

whci gives you less to save and less to spend.

the new system leaves you with £50/month MORE, income.

more to save, more to spend.

You've confused me now, Graham. By saying "mounting fees" and "what the Tories want." I assumed you were complaining about the fees being increased by the Tories, not them being introduced by Labour.

As I said, Labour are just as bad. I'm complaining about the entire system.

IMO education, in all its forms, should be as open to everyone as we can possibly make it. Having lots of smart people in the population is never a bad thing (unless you are a member of an elitist ruling class).

Not in maths presumably?

Comp Sci BSc(Hons)

Maffs ain't a strong point, But logic is. 😀

Unless you're telling me that accomodation around Sheffield is more costly than my nice part of Cambridgeshire, which I sincerely doubt.

Talking of central Cambridge (CB1 post code, 5 mins for rail station).

House next door to me is rented out to Anglia Polytechnic Students (or ARU as it now calls itself). £380 pcm for a tiny room (3 bed house sub divided into 6 rooms!).

Assuming 9 month let for an academic year that's £3,420 per annum.

Just think about all the action that buys you.

Men in their 40's would spend much more to have sex with numerous 18-21yrs on a daily basis.

Thank you Jesters night club.

[quote=thestabiliser ]Basically it's got to be paid back at some point

Actually, no it doesn't.

Those staying on middle incomes being worse affected by paying more for longer.

Depends on your definition of "middle income". The one you seem to be using is well above national average salary, and certainly more than I earn.

IMO education, in all its forms, should be as open to everyone as we can possibly make it. Having lots of smart people in the population is never a bad thing (unless you are a member of an elitist ruling class).

+1. And if they happen to earn a lot of money because of it, they pay more tax, don't they!

somewhatslightlydazed - Its sad that so many people see the only benefit of a good education as a higher earning potential."

Yep, I learnt how to think critically, analyse all of the information. That's why I don't blame the Tories (on tuition fees), plenty of other things they're responsible for, but selling out our kids? We can all thank Tony, Gordon, Jack, Peter, David, Charles, Harriet et al for totally shafting our kids. After all they mortgaged the ****ing schools under PFI. Buy now pay later in all aspects of education FFS!!

thisisnotaspoon » Average graduate satarting sallary in 2013 was £29,500 IIRC

Hmm - maybe I should delete the last 20 years of my CV and apply for graduate jobs. Oh hang on, I've just remembered I'm an engineer.

What's your point? You seem to imply you're earning less than £30k (which I doubt), but being able to call yourself an engineer is worth more? 😕

Personally you can call me a "shit shovelling tosspot" if you pay me £100k to do it.

We can argue about it all we like but if moneysavingexpert Martin Lewis thought the loan terms were better than the old, I don't care how many degrees you lot have got, I'll agree with him!

It's not a real loan. You are not held liable for it.

It's a limited graduate tax. Don't call it a loan.

SD-253 - Member

One daughter university degree 32 £35,000 a year
second daughter no degree £50,000 a year and a company BMW and neither of them will give me any money [b][u]surely the bank of Dad should be paid first[/u][/b].

😆 I hope they pay you back in happiness.

Did you fund them for the entire education? Student loan is not yours nor their money. Loan is a loan.

🙂

Written off when you're 65, so all you've got to do is limit your income to below the following to not pay any back or just hand over 9% of any thing over 16k, so at 23k slary that'd be 9% of 7k p.a. or £60 somethng - can't be arsed to think hard enough to get the number right

How much do I repay?
You will repay 9% of anything you earn over the income threshold.

The UK income threshold is:

•£16,910 before tax per year
•£1,409 before tax per month
•£325 before tax per week

For example, if you earn £1,650 per month, you would pay 9% of £241, or £21 per month to your student loan.

PLUS whatever you had to borrow to live on

Hmm - maybe I should delete the last 20 years of my CV and apply for graduate jobs. Oh hang on, I've just remembered I'm an engineer.

You're way out of date. The cheapest self-catered halls at Sheffield are now more than £4k p.a.

Sheffield was actually pretty cheep for rent, compared to Manchester for example, Crookes was arround 20% less than Fallowfield Road (was that the Manc student area?)

thestabailliser - those are the figures of the old system, not the new system.

[quote=GrahamS ]As I said, Labour are just as bad. I'm complaining about the entire system.
...
Comp Sci BSc(Hons)
Maffs ain't a strong point, But logic is.

You're suggesting that Labour AND the Tories got us into this mess, NOT that it was just one OR the other?

Higher education is one of the biggest scams going. Let's hope online learning can disrupt the whole sector and restore some fairness for the students.
As others have said, some of the top earners I know never went to uni, either learning a trade or starting at a company straight out of school.
I went when fees were £1k a year, but I wouldn't go now.

I'm shocked to note that the average wage is £26.5k. I'm in a technical sales engineering role and only earning £20k. And that with 12 years service in the same company.

Yes, I'm mad. But I only have high school and college qualifications to back up the experience, so getting a job in a different area would be difficult.

thestabiliser - Member

Written off when you're 65,

nope, after 30 years. (iirc)

hand over 9% of any thing over 16k,

£21k.

What I want to know is that ,given the present government inflating the housing market, so the baby boomers can carry on using their properties as cash machines, how on earth is any graduate meant to get on the property ladder, while paying off such enormous debts?

Oh… they're not. They can just pay increased rents to the generation that ****ed them.

binners

Amen, that's the nail on the head.

NO Govt. will let the "free market" correct housing prices, becuase they know that a move like that costs you 13 years in opposition.

[quote=njee20 ]You seem to imply you're earning less than £30k (which I doubt), but being able to call yourself an engineer is worth more?

Well I am right now, and indeed was before, though my pro-rata full time was a little more than that, so though I'd be working more hours I'd be earning more (and probably not going to pick up a job working part time). I attach just as much value to calling myself an engineer as the general population does.

What I want to know is that ,given the present government inflating the housing market, so the baby boomers can carry on using their properties as cash machines, how on earth is any graduate meant to get on the property ladder, while paying off such enormous debts?

Not £44k, but as people have observed time and time again the actual amount is irrelevant, it's a tax, rather than true debt. The repayments aren't based on the outstanding debt, so it's a red herring.

But I bought a house aged 26, with ms njee20, with a 5% deposit and minimal help from parents, in the South East. Yeah ok, been pretty lucky with jobs and that, but IMO it's not as impossible as folk like to make out!

Well I am right now, and indeed was before, though my pro-rata full time was a little more than that, so though I'd be working more hours I'd be earning more. I attach just as much value to calling myself an engineer as the general population does.

So what was your point? Are you annoyed graduates earn as much as you?

It's also a known fact that engineers place a far higher value on their title than the general public, hence they have to remind people "I'm an engineer" at every available juncture. Working in an LBS taught me as much, and it's frequently reinforced on here. It's the only profession where folk seem to feel they must qualify their knowledge without provocation. Insecurity?

You only go to uni if you are studying for science, technology or medical related degree(s).

You don't need that many people to study social science degrees only to end up working as sales person or doing administrative bureaucratic work.

😀

You only go to uni if you are studying for science, technology or medical related degree(s).

In an ideal world, yes, but now even fairly pedestrian jobs require a degree, such as in marketing, consultancy, or business development. The system is rigged in favour of the higher education institutions.

Ooops. I concede the repayments threshold bit.

Still shit though, say if you earned a career average of 35k you'd pay back over 50k so you'd have paid all your working life and still not cleared the debt at 6% as it is at the mo according to the site (3% above base rate). OK inflation would take care of that to some extent I guess - thinking as I'm typing. but watching that come out of your salary every month as your grandchildren are setting off for secondary school would grate.

Meh. You never see it. It comes out of your paye before you get it. All it means is you get paid a few hundred quid less a year. I'm never expecting to pay it off, but I have no problem with the payments. I just view it as a tax to hopefully fund other people through the system, and hopefully they in turn will fund later students

You don't need that many people to study social science degrees only to end up working as sales person or administrative work.

Anyone going to such degrees now really do need their heads checking.

It is an industry- back in 94 we had 15-20hours a week. Now I understand it can be down to as little as 9hrs!

[quote=njee20 ]So what was your point? Are you annoyed graduates earn as much as you?

Surprised it's quite that much, though I was well aware my salary hadn't kept up with inflation and the jobs I'm looking at (which require all that experience) aren't significantly higher.

<do not rise to the engineer bait, do not rise...>

But shouldn't WE be voting for our kids futures?

Yes. But "we" don't.

= :87(

Not got a problem with them myself.

Not paid a penny back on my 3 mortgage loans from the early 90's and have never considered them a debt just an extra tax threshold. I'm going part time in the next couple of months and they expire in 2019 so chances are that I never will pay them back.

njee20 - are you seriously suggesting that a graduate finishing this summer, could now even contemplate buying a property in the South East of England, with no help from the bank of mum and dad?

What percentage do you reckon? Have a look at the property prices now, then work out what deposit you'd need, then what you'd need to be earning to service it. Thats assuming you'd be looking to take on more debt on top of the £44 hanging round your neck already.

I reckon it'd be all but impossible

badnewz - Member

In an ideal world, yes, but now even fairly pedestrian jobs require a degree, such as in marketing, consultancy, or business development. The system is rigged in favour of the higher education institutions.

I know a recent graduate who has a Bachelor and a Masters degrees who is now working as Data Input clerk for a bureaucratic organisation. I mean do you need a degree for this? My lord!

hora - Member

Anyone going to such degrees now really do need their heads checking.

It is an industry- back in 94 we had 15-20hours a week. Now I understand it can be down to as little as 9hrs!

Or sharing a job with another person at minimum wage rate. 😯

are you seriously suggesting that a graduate finishing this summer, could now even contemplate buying a property in the South East of England, with no help from the bank of mum and dad?

I can't see wages increasing, so the disconnect between the level of debt and ability to pay it off will increase even further.

People are wailing about never paying it all back. Why is this a problem? Surely it's a good thing?

FWIW I am not in favour of fees at all, but the current system is not as bad as people are making out.

I can't see wages increasing, so the disconnect between the level of debt and [s]ability[/s] requirement to pay it off will increase even further.

People are wailing about never paying it all back. Why is this a problem? Surely it's a good thing?

njee20 - are you seriously suggesting that a graduate finishing this summer, could now even contemplate buying a property in the South East of England, with no help from the bank of mum and dad?

What percentage do you reckon? Have a look at the property prices now, then work out what deposit you'd need, then what you'd need to be earning to service it. Thats assuming you'd be looking to take on more debt on top of the £44 hanging round your neck already.

I reckon it'd be all but impossible

Not straight away no, but again, I've just done it.

Both me and ms njee20 graduated in 2008, got a 'real' job in Feb 2009, moved into rented house together in late-2009, bought a house last summer. Minimal help from either set of parents. I've just done it, I don't need to look at property prices! FWIW, we paid £250k for our house in Sussex with a £12,500 deposit.

Again, the actual amount of the £44k is irrelevant. It's the same monthly repayment whether it's £44 or £440,000, it's a tick box on the mortgage affordability assessment. The overall amount we pay is less, but the monthly payments are more as the thresholds are lower.

I know a recent graduate who has a Bachelor and a Masters degrees who is now working as Data Input clerk for a bureaucratic organisation. I mean do you need a degree for this? My lord!

I wonder how many Grads did it as their parents really wanted them to go to Uni. They did it and came out thinking 'I didnt do that for me and look at me now'.

All with the best intentions but I imagine in most 6th form colleges etc its a bit 'sheep' too. The thing to do, everyones heads down racing so fast to get into a Uni that its seen as 'arrived/against peers'.

Only a few (with good/getting great grades) will stop and think 'hang on, is this really for me'.

thestabiliser - Member

...say if you earned a career average of 35k..

you can consider yourself very fortunate and successful, well done you!

You only go to uni if you are studying for science, technology or medical related degree(s).

So what about writers, painters, philosophers, designers, historians, mathematicians, actors, musicians, economists, lawyers, teachers, linguists, geographers, ...

Where should they go for an education?

My company only recruits grads with 1st class degrees, why?, because there are so many in the market we can!!!

We should really increase that to having 3 languages as-well.

Not read all the responses but having had the experience of living in different countries and different education systems, the £44k mark is not that big.

A university degree in most countries is something that is hard earned and not taken for granted and when the UK was in the situation of having free tuition fees this was not the case.

Also, if you look for example at the US, a 3 year degree is unheard of, most degrees are much longer. People will work a lot harder to be able to afford an education - working nights, weekends, summer and winter holidays as well as applying for grants and bursuries that are available.

In the UK, a lot of people used to take out student loans because they could, not because they needed too. They would take out loans to party, travel, buy a car etc without even considering working whilst at university. They would piss the student loan up the wall by going out 5 times a week on the beers. I think it is time for a lot of people to wake up and understand what a higher education is all about, what is worth is and that it is not something that should be just gifted to you.

I attach just as much value to calling myself an engineer as the general population does.

That would be none then! 😉

hence they have to remind people "I'm an engineer" at every available juncture.

Really, can't say anyone I know cares (and I know a lot of Engineers).

My company only recruits grads with 1st class degrees, why?

Because they want their employees to be desperate try-hards with few social skills? 😉

(Desmond and proud!)

Especially as interest rates only grow the debt
inline with inflation so it never gets any bigger in
real terms.

Hands up who has had an above inflation pay rise every year over the past five?

Surely the problem here is the cost of living in the SE rather than student loans. You don't have to live/work there. They could afford to buy in one of the many other areas of the UK.

SE is where the work is. In any case, few graduates would have the means to buy a house elsewhere when the average UK house price is around 10x the average UK full time salary.

Because they want their employees to be desperate try-hards with few social skills?

Some of us got a first with virtually no effort 😉 (because I was too busy doing a Saturday job and driving a van in the evening to pay for the sodding thing)

Thanks but I'm a long way from averaging that, at the minute.

The point is it's an erosion of you the difference in your earning potential over someone without a degree. FOr people of relatively similar intelligence and attitude you're not gaining 50k's worth of extra earning potential. No evidence to back that up but I'll shove it out there.

I find it odd that so many see a degree as essential. I was in a meetingt'other week where we were talking about talent attraction and sustainability and all the HR and comms people in there could talk about was graduates and getting in the best grad recruitement fairs. The very definition of a self selecting elite. They were a bit suprised when i reminded them tat most the money we earn comes off the back of dustmen, gas and water engineers, cleaners, electrical fitters, plant operators etc. Most of the skilled end of these trades are earning as much and more than their managers, dirty work in some cases but lucrative - you don't need a degree to do it and we should be looking for their replacements not looking for marketing and business grads.

Not sure waht my point is now - better do some work

I was at uni 2000-2004 and left with a MSci and 17k of student loan and a few k on overdraft and credit cards. Got into an industry using my degree after about a year at $17.5k pa as a graduate and after 6 years I got to $23.5k pa (before the recession and the 20% paycut). For the first four years I was repaying the loan at a monthly payment due to my income that was significantly lower than the interest accrued. I worked out at that rate (assuming continuing wage + inflation) I would have paid the govt. over £80,000 in interest by the age of 65 and still not repaid the capital.

I now work overseas and the SLC have been next to useless in helping me sort out payments and charge me a standard rate based on my location of £350 a month iirc. It has to come from a uk bank so I have to incur charges each month in money transfer and exchange to pay it.

Re: getting on the property market - as a single person renting a property and paying off CC and overdraft from uni etc and living - saving was practically impossible (especially with a bike habit) I worked out to save an deposit for the average property in my area would have taken 24 years...

SE is where the work is

Yep. Why the hell d'you think it's so expensive in the first place?

Hands up who has had an above inflation pay rise every year over the past five?

Hardly ever had an incremental payrise. However I now earn five times what I did in 1998 when I started work - inflation would have only increased this by 50%

<do not rise to the engineer bait, do not rise...>

Njee20 has been out leafleting again:

[img] [/img]

View this post on Instagram

GrahamS - Member

So what about writers, [s]painters[/s], [s]philosophers[/s], designers ([s]fashion designers[/s]), [s]historians[/s], mathematicians, [s]actors[/s], [s]musicians[/s], economists, lawyers, teachers, [s]linguists[/s], geographers, ...

Where should they go for an education?

Yes, some on of them perhaps a degree is enough as for the rest I doubt they are really that necessary if we have tonnes of them.

B Ark material

Got into an industry using my degree after about a year at $17.5k pa as a graduate and after 6 years I got to $23.5k pa

Seriously, how did you manage to earn as little as 17.5k dollars with an MSci. Even £17.5k is doing well, I'm on more than the latter figure (23k) with exactly 3 months of experience.

It's all about how you apply yourself when you get out. On the one hand I know someone who studied Computer Science at Demonfort and earned a 2:2... who is now earning 45k a year. On the other hand I know someone who recieved a double first in Political Science from Oxford University and an MA, who has been unemployed for a year.

SE is where the work is

You're choice to do 'the work' rather than some 'other work' somewhere cheaper.

That assumes there are suitable vacancies somewhere cheaper.

Like it or not, the SE is the economic centre of the UK.

Yeah, I moved away from home and lived like fugitive Jew in 1943 so that I could get some work experience in London.

It helped a lot, you shouldn't have to do it and I had to save up a fair whack of money - but many of my contempories always make poor excuses for not taking a risk and moving to where there are opportunies. I shouldn't complain though, that's why I have my job and they don't.

are you seriously suggesting that a graduate finishing this summer, could now even contemplate buying a property in the South East of England, with no help from the bank of mum and dad?

Seems to work for most of the people working here (rent a few years then buy a flat/house). I only know of 2 people with money from the bank of mum and dad, and one would better be described as "old money".

<do not rise to the engineer bait, do not rise...>

Unless prefixed by "chartered", just substitute it for "plumber, gas fitter, technician, or cleaner*"

*half joking

I have nothing particularly constructive to add.

The whole extended education situation is, however, particularly screwed up. IMO we do not need 50% of people attending university.

The unis don't care. Every fee is a win.

10k of debt per year sure does make a balls up of a graduates financial situation.

If nothing changes, I'll be encouraging my offspring toward alternate ways of career entry.

Unless prefixed by "chartered", just substitute it for "plumber, gas fitter, technician, or cleaner*"

Think I'll adopt "Senior Software Plumber" as my new job title. 😀

Unless prefixed by "chartered"

Must remember to fill in the forms one day (mind you been saying that for 20+ years)....

Its quite telling that with the increase in fees, senior university staff have started benchmarking their wages against city boardrooms

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/10532752/University-chiefs-five-figure-pay-rises-described-as-inappropriate-and-unfair.html ]more pocket-lining[/url]

[i]One of the largest increases, 16 per cent, went to Calie Pistorius, the vice-chancellor of Hull, who was awarded a salary increase of £15,000 and a bonus of £30,000 to take his total package to £321,000. [/i]

Looks like Blackadder was right about England's elite universities 😀

mrmonkfinger - The whole extended education situation is, however, particularly screwed up. IMO we do not need 50% of people attending university.

The unis don't care. Every fee is a win.

10k of debt per year sure does make a balls up of a graduates financial situation.

Of course it artificially keeps youth unemployment figures low and they don't even get free money. Maybe I'm being cynical...

Of course it artificially keeps youth unemployment figures low and they don't even get free money. Maybe I'm being cynical...

It shouldn't make much of a difference to ages 23+ though, should it.

The world is changing, in 30 years time, those that don't have some sort of higher education will be left behind.

Both me and ms njee20 graduated in 2008

It's rude to ask, but what was your combined income at point of buying your house?

Of course it artificially keeps youth unemployment figures low and they don't even get free money. Maybe I'm being cynical...

When it comes to politics, I don't believe it's possible to be too cynical.

That assumes there are suitable vacancies somewhere cheaper.

I studied Engineering, I drive buses now.

One day, google will put you out of a job.

Fair enough, choosing to be a bus driver and living somewhere cheaper but not everyone wants to - I don't see why you can excuse the Norths level of development and the high house prices down south just because graduates should "bite the bullet".

It's also rather telling that a junior doctor in the South is paid little more than a Bus driver up North. Fortunately, other countries pay graduates better.

It's rude to ask, but what was your combined income at point of buying your house?

Enough to put us in the third highest bracket on today's front page poll, so not incredible, but above average.

As I understand it, one of the biggest impacts of high levels of student debt (other than discouraging people from going to University in the first place), is that it is driving very talented and intelligent people away from careers in academia. This very type of person whose intelligence, ingenuity and impetus has historically been the mainstay of our superb international HE and research reputation is now putting his/her talents at the disposal of the banks, the lawyers and the big 4, devising ever more complex derivatives products/tax avoidance schemes/lies. So the consultants who devised the latest fees structures now cream off the top talent from the very institutions that need them to maintain our place in the international elite and use them to derive schemes and systems that will eventually screw us all. Oh the irony... 😕