[Closed] £400 energy payment

Yes you're missing the fact it's only £200, they had already annouced the other £200. It won't touch the sides come the next hike in October. Our bill has gone from £163 in November when our fixed deal with Avro died to £455 now and will no doubt will go up again in October.

It's as ridiculous as asking the energy companies to be responsible for making sure they sell us less energy by asking them to fund and deliver energy saving programmes.

I think this will be the next latest lounging gear for UK residents.

I can imagine how the meeting with the remaining energy providers went, after the other little admin operations jacked it in.

Industry spokesperson: It's like this, you let us charge what we want, when we want, or **** it, it's all yours.

Government spokesperson: Oh err mmmm yes we will remove the price cap. Is two months time an acceptable compromise so we don't look like we completely rolled over.

Invest it in Electric blankets, slippers and a thick jumper.

Invest it in Electric blankets

Ummmm....

Sounds like it's credited to your account, not cash you can choose to spend. We're on pre-payment and we'll either get a voucher or it credited to our meter so Mrs tells me.

I guess electric blankets are more efficient than heating a whole room? Though I think my wife would happily sit in the sleeping bag onezie 😂

Seems crazy that multiple house owners get multiple £400+, pensioners get an extra £300 without it being means tested, landlords who may have already increased rents on all-inclusive deals because of electricity bill rises get the £400 into their virtual pocket etc.

It's a distraction to get past the other 'larger' story of the week.

The worst thing about this approach imo, is that because it's not means tested, it's got potential to make things actually worsen for everyone. Those that don't need it (including myself) will spend the cash elsewhere driving inflation. Just my 5c.

You mean 6c?

Do they do those onesies in pink? Just the job to keep the mrs warm this summer…

I think this will be the next latest lounging gear for UK residents.

Invest it in Electric blankets, slippers and a thick jumper.

Hopefully one slight positive will be people thinking about their energy usage and waste. Chap on the BBC yesterday saying that his wife has the heating on and windows open to dry washing, so they'll probably not do that as much anymore!

Jumpers and slippers and standard winter wear round here.

Those that don’t need it (including myself) will spend the cash elsewhere driving inflation

Agree. Would rather £800 go to someone that actually needs it than both of us get £400 each.

It’s 400 per household, not per person surely?

Yep, per household.

these graphs show exactly why we are all gonna pay a big chunk of our incomes on fuel in the coming years.

think i'm gonna have to invest in some thermals rather than laying around the house in shorts and tshirt 10-11 months of the year

paid £77 a month for gas/elec the last few years, building up good credits in summer to cover winter. i'm hoping the new bill is under £220 a month, probably be more like £250-300
, octopus wanted £180 DD, i've increased my dd to £125 and paid the £150 rebate onto the account.

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/energy-data-and-research/data-portal/wholesale-market-indicators

Agree. Would rather £800 go to someone that actually needs it than both of us get £400 each.

Give your £400 to a suitable charity then.

Three things:

1) The spending will come before the taxation as always. (Government can spend at will.)

2) And the collection of taxes will be less than the payments.

3) it won't be enough to stop the struggling economy and families in trouble.

The actual reason to tax them is to reduce excessive profits.

The government spend is not connected to their profits in reality.

Tinkering at the seams to demonstrate the false Robin Hood scenario of government spending.

Give your £400 to a suitable charity then.

Yep, plenty homeless charities to choose from in most areas of the country I'd imagine.

Give your £400 to a suitable charity then.

Not really a proper solution. There's £15,000,000,000 sloshing around with this package and a big chunk of that is going to end up in the pockets (or offshore investment funds) of those that don't need it. As a packet of money it could make a significant difference to those that really need help.

You mean 6c?

😆

Agree. Would rather £800 go to someone that actually needs it than both of us get £400 each.

Give your £400 to a suitable charity then

I think he means he'd rather *all* comfortably off people's chunk went to the less well off.
( but you knew that anyway;-) )

Its £400 per household, not per person.

Not everyone needs it, or the extra amounts available, but I suspect more of us will need it than we realise next winter. If you don't need it, donate the equivalent to charity rather than whining on the Internet, quite a common practice already among better off pensioners with the existing winter fuel payment.

Give your £400 to a suitable charity then.

That's what I've already done with the first £150 payment. Still waiting for the 2nd £150 on our cottage in the Dales....

comfortably off, waste money on luxury goods/ meals out, cars, holidays and bicycles.
everyone except the exceptionally rich will have their disposable incomes hit hard.

for the majority of middle class paying an extra £500/£1000/£1500/£2500 on the fuel bill means one less trip away, one less holiday, one less bike one less meal out.
economies gonna be hit hard.

i know many folk who earn great money but then spend it to keep up with the neighbours.
will a big shakeup happen

There is no way that extra £400 is going to drive inflation, I don't need the money but I am currently on a fix till October I reckon that my bills are going to go from £2000 to at least £6000 a year. So I'm going to blow the £400 on C&H when I'm still down £3600. The energy cost increases is going to massively cut any demand-driven inflation way more than pissing around with a 1/2 % here of there on the interest rate would ever do.

They should have taken the time to get this right instead of rushing it out to cover up partygate.

There is/was a Landlord in York when we were renting 15 years ago who owned over 250 properties in the area. Even if he still has them he's going to net £100k

I think he means he’d rather *all* comfortably off people’s chunk went to the less well off.

Yes, that is exactly what I meant, and yes they knew that but wouldn't be STW without some personal digs.

Relying on some people who don't need it giving it to an appropriate need is not a well thought out method is it, especially as many will just keep it, but then "well thought out" and "Tory government" don't go together.

Yes, that is exactly what I meant, and yes they knew that but wouldn’t be STW without some personal digs.

That wasn't my intention so apologies if it came across that way. That's not the way I work on this forum.

I agree the payment should be targeted to those who need it most, but unfortunately, it hasn't been thought out particularly well. No surprise there. But at least some decent folk out there will do the right thing - and a donation to charity is the ideal way. And well done to those who have already done that.

how would they identify those who need it most?

we live in a nice house, we both have full time jobs with modest salaries and dont claim any benefits or anything - but we are struggling to keep our head above water atm. that £400 will be very welcome... and i hope they do just credit the pre-paid meter rather than cash!

In defence of the Government. (not something I've send before).

This is pretty much exactly what Martin Lewis has been calling for, he's not a fan of the Government at all, it's also what Labour have been calling for, although perhaps not using the same methodology.

The whole package is actually means tested to a point.

If you're on UC and you live in a CT ban A-D you get £650 in 'cash' £150 CT rebate and £400 off your Energy bill. That's £1200 in total, more than the rise in Energy costs, the rest to help towards retail inflation. This is the case for my SIL and her two kids she's raising alone on a part-time carers wage topped up by UC.

We're not on UC, we live in a band E house and yes, like everyone we've 'noticed' the rise in energy, fuel and food costs. We've decided that we won't go out for dinner for my birthday and again for my daughters birthday next month when we always have in the past, we'll just go out the once. I know, please pray for us. We'll get £400, a 3rd of what my SIL will get but because we're not struggling it's fine. When I saw how much it was going to go up, I put up our DD now, to build up a big credit ready for Oct, combined with the £400, we probably won't have to pay anymore come Oct

If you're a Pensioner you get £300 for being a pensioner, but if you're one of the pensioners with £1m in property, a nice final salary pension and all the other things, you get £700. If you're one of the desperate older people, choosing between heating and eating, I think you get £1500 all in.

It's not perfect, and yes it's a smoke screen - but they've literally taxed the rich energy companies to redistribute to us, with the poorest getting the most. Apart from the whole re-nationalisation thing, it's near Corbyn levels of Socialism.

Yes you’re missing the fact it’s only £200, they had already annouced the other £200.

AFAIK the original £200 was a repayable loan - now the full £400 is a 'grant'

how would they identify those who need it most?

Well the payments to those in receipt of tax credits / benefits is pretty targeted.

Council Tax is a very blunt instrument as it's been so long since the bands were assigned. We're band D, but house is now worth £700-£800k, maybe more....

In defence of the Government. (not something I’ve send before).

No fan of the Tories, but in fairness to RS, it's a pretty good scheme. Is it perfect, no, but nothing ever is.

There’s £15,000,000,000 sloshing around with this package and a big chunk of that is going to end up in the pockets (or offshore investment funds) of those that don’t need it. As a packet of money it could make a significant difference to those that really need help.

That's not really the case though. The top 1% of earners number about 0.5 million so the extra £400 amounts to £200 million. A lot of money to be sure but only 1.3% of that 15 Billion. Bear in mind that there are other targeted payments that have been announced that are in addition to this £400. If this £200 million were distributed to say the 8 million lowest income homes it would result in an additional £25 per household. How much difference will that actually make over?

The proposal is far from perfect but it is a quick easy way toe get money to those who need it and if part of the cost is some wealthy people also benefit then so be it. What is needed now is ongoing support for those lowest income households (e.g. raising benefits) but sadly I don't trust this government to come up with anything meaningful there.

but they’ve literally taxed the rich energy companies to redistribute to us,

But this is what I don't get - they are redistributing it to us purely so we can give it straight back to them...?

But this is what I don’t get – they are redistributing it to us purely so we can give it straight back to them…?

its effectively reducing the amount the big oil/gas companies can charge for their product, but only for UK consumers.

But this is what I don’t get – they are redistributing it to us purely so we can give it straight back to them…?

No. They have taxed oil and gas producers (presumably just North Sea production as oil and gas taxation is really complicated) and "given" it to electricity and gas suppliers. Shell, BP, Total etc don't generate electicity for the grid or sell you gas.

It's amazing how he manages to find £10bn (£15bn spend - £5bn windfall tax) for when he needs to do some 'politics' - but then it's not like he can't just 'print' some more money.

All it'll do is push up inflation a bit more and increase the monthly debt payments.

We're deeper in the mire.

We're about to enter a chapter where we will pay the price for all the poor decisions that our governments have made (being lobbied) over the past 30/40 years.

If we'd changed our house building technique to passive standard....

If we'd used our oil & gas to benefit the country as Norway did....

I mean, come on. Who puts the responsibility for saving energy on the energy companies - ECO 4 = Energy Company Obligation.

I could go on & on, but we're now going up the Creek without a paddle.

Long term strategy is the key.

All it’ll do is push up inflation a bit more and increase the monthly debt payments.

If most of the extra money just goes to poorer households who spend it on gas / electricity it won't make any change to global energy prices.

Nor will it push up food prices as the poor were still going to buy food to eat (the alternative being starve to death).

We’re band D, but house is now worth £700-£800k, maybe more…

Exactly, I have an issue with this

My house is band F yet it’s worth a third of that. I chose to move somewhere cheap (fife) as that’s all I could afford. Whereas all my mates live in Edinburgh in houses worth twice as much, but are in band E or less

I’m not particularly fussed about not getting the 150 quid, I won’t miss it. But I do have an issue that my council tax (even including single person allowance) is 500 quid more a month than my mate, who lives with his family in a house worth twice as much only 20 miles away

Its £400 per household, not per person.

Well it's actually £400 off the account isn't it (deducted this autumn). I wonder if you have separate accounts for gas and electricity that you'll get 2 x £400?

But this is what I don’t get – they are redistributing it to us purely so we can give it straight back to them…?

If we just focus on the £400 bit yes, I'd guess that'll be the biggest category in the over-all cost.

If I were to guess, it's to avoid driving inflation, already at 9% this year, by effectively reducing the cost of energy, reducing inflation, rather than injecting billions into the economy driving it up.

We can cut it a dozen ways, is it a tax? Is it a change to the price cap scheme? Is it a forced discount scheme? The words only matter on the news and the polling station really. Given the time frame, and the malignant sods who've imposed it, it's actually a good system. I wouldn't get too caught up in the whole 'taking with one hand and giving with the other' element of it, you might argue it's an oversimplification that doesn't add to the debate.

Ummmm….

Electric blanket is about the most efficient heating you will get. Direct and highly insulated environment.

If we’d used our oil & gas to benefit the country as Norway did….

Norway is a country an order of magnitude smaller than United Kingdom (5.4 vs. 67.2 million people) with roughly similar volumes of oil production to date (40+ bn bbl). So it's not exactly a fair comparison.

I actually think this isnt a bad deal, especially as it helps the poorest most

For me theres a real opportunity missed , the exemption for O&G companies if they invest means a lot of tax will be dodged, plenty of ways to creatively label something 'investment', but for me the real missed opportunity was that the exemption wasnt for investing in renewables, which would help break our dependency on O&G

Norway is a country an order of magnitude smaller than United Kingdom (5.4 vs. 67.2 million people) with roughly similar volumes of oil production to date (40+ bn bbl). So it’s not exactly a fair comparison.

Great excuse. Its OK for the UK to have pissed our money up the wall because there's more of us who failed to give it any serious thought and plan ahead.

Great.

Energy production/distribution companies profits will go to energy retailers to pay consumers bills.

It's not all the same companies, why don't people get this?

Great excuse. Its OK for the UK to have pissed our money up the wall because there’s more of us who failed to give it any serious thought and plan ahead.

I guess my point was more it would be a significantly smaller percentage wise as a balance sheet surplus here. Whether the government put the revenue to good use is a different question.

Norway is a country an order of magnitude smaller than United Kingdom (5.4 vs. 67.2 million people) with roughly similar volumes of oil production to date (40+ bn bbl). So it’s not exactly a fair comparison.

It's a comparison of what government sets out to do. The Norwegians (afaik) saw the oil as something belonging to the country and hence the people, so they created a national industry to extract it and ploughed the profits back into the country to make it a better place.

We started that but then sold everything off so a much smaller number of people got very very rich, pissed off with the money, and the rest of us were left struggling as always.

That's the important distinction here. It comes down to what you think a government should do, and what life should be like.

The Norwegians (afaik) saw the oil as something belonging to the country and hence the people, so they created a national industry to extract it and ploughed the profits back into the country to make it a better place.

That sounds like God Damn Socialism to me!

We won't be having any of that for the poor (just the rich).

If Thatcher-worshipping rich Tory yahoos are now into the idea of state intervention in the Market to drive economic redistribution, rather than it happening by it's own magic (their belief until now), are we now getting closer to the point where a sensible discussion around a universal basic income has a chance?

There'll always be devil in the detail with a move like this, but I'm slightly astounded-of-forehead to see the tories going ahead with it. Whether it's driven by a desire to ride out the Grey report and what follows, or its a resigned belief that they've probably not got long left so may as well hammer the public purse, but it flies firmly in the face of the Thatcher-Reagan free-market dogma that's been at their black, black heart for so long.

We live in interesting times.

are we now getting closer to the point where a sensible discussion around a universal basic income has a chance?

I doubt it, that's a U-turn too far.

Plus its well proven that trickle down economics are the best way to help the poor - give all the money to the rich and let it trickle down (to offshore bank accounts mainly).

Government step in to help out economy by giving adults £1 a day towards increasing costs of living.
This is for the gas, electricity, food and petroleum products mostly.
Its not alot for a family of 3 or 4 or 5 who are probably £5 to £10 a day worse off than they were this time last year.
When the mortgage rates go up to" never been experienced by most home owner levels " and you suddenly need another say £700 a month to cover that payment is the magic money tree going to be given another shake.
Going to be tough few years for millions of people. I am old enough to remember double digits interest and people working 2 or 3 jobs to try to keep their houses. The 30 something £200k mortgage folk are going to have to watch the pennies.

The situation wasn't helped by a vacillating Labour Government. In 2003 they didn't want nuclear, in 2006 they did, but it wasn't until 2011 that the Conservatives identified the sites and signed contracts in 2013, by which time UK-based talent had given up on the whole idea.
Had labour pulled its finger out we'd have reduced CO2 emissions, reduced costs and reduced reliance on fossil fuels with nuclear power stations by 2018. We also wouldn't have gone for diesel cars so heavily (thanks, G. Brown)
A coherent strategy for power generation with domestic (and industrial) planning and building regs, transport, etc has been a mess for more than twenty years and continues to be so...plus ca change as EDF might say

If I were to guess, it’s to avoid driving inflation, already at 9% this year, by effectively reducing the cost of energy, reducing inflation, rather than injecting billions into the economy driving it up

It's not likely to affect inflation like that given there's a somewhat increase in the average bill of around £1200-1500

The actual anti-inflationary measure is the tax itself. The tax will remove money from the higher end of 'earners' and thus control their ability to take excess resources. Slightly messy as we're talking about corporations.

Injecting money into the economy doesn't drive inflation alone -providing the cash goes to the appropriate resources/Labour force.

BTW American might have turned a corner on inflation - keep an eye on that and look out for the dreaded deflationary pressure.

The questionable thing is not the support but how it's implemented. This is a subsidy to energy companies ultimately and that is the wrong way to shape the economy/climate - long term.

The energy companies do need taxing - but the support for consumers perhaps needs to be a different methodology, one that doesn't include giving money back to energy companies to generate more profits.

The questionable thing is not the support but how it’s implemented. This is a subsidy to energy companies ultimately and that is the wrong way to shape the economy/climate – long term

There's no other way to fix it in the short term, the UK Government doesn't have a strategic gas supply etc it can tap to provide cheap fuel, so subsidising fuel is the only option in the short term.

High prices for carbon based fuels are good for renewable investment, so it will make it even more cost effective to build wind farms / solar farms etc - which is the only long term fix.

The energy companies do need taxing – but the support for consumers perhaps needs to be a different methodology, one that doesn’t include giving money back to energy companies to generate more profits.

Still a net loss to the energy companies - take their profits as an extra tax and use that to subsidise fuel costs. Especially if it's a rolling thing and not a one off, as you just tax next year's profits as well...