4 Day week

I think you've started and answered your own thread in one paragraph.

Seen to be doing something and doing something are often seen as the same.
Great idea in principle

employee forum meeting

So that's another thing I've no idea what is.

After being made redundant and then starting up on my own I decided that I would try not to work on Friday.
In my head, I figured that I could do the housework and shopping Friday morning, get a ride in the afternoon and then prepare and cook a nice family dinner.
The wife, being a Headteacher, works flat out so it’s nice to start the weekend without having to worry about grocery shopping and having a clean and tidy house. This has made family life so much better.
If you can afford it, it’s great for work/life balance.
Edit, sorry OP, I just read the thread title and off
I went.
The only thing I can say is that if your company can work something out, it can only be of great benefit to the staff.

I’d love it. If office types go to 4 day weeks, maybe I could cut down to a 5 day week. Might mean doing a full day though. Which I’m less keen on.

So that’s another thing I’ve no idea what is

Neither, it would appear, does Doomanic's MD 🙂

would mean doing an extra day (3x12 here when full time)

Big fan, but never made the idea stick at my old place, who let me do it at my own cost, which wasn't viable long term. Been on 4.5 day week for 18+ months now and love it, in terms of work/life balance just half a day feels like a huge difference. Still has to be out my pocket mind but think the loss of half a day a week of wages is worth it for the benefit it brings me.

My place do 4.5 days paid for 5. Some pushing for 4. Doesn't seem likely.

I work a 4 day week,on 80% salary. I officially only have 80% caseload, but it's pretty much the same as my full time colleagues.

I usually have Fridays off, so I can take my parents out for a change of scene, and make sure they - and we - have the weekly shop done and weekend plans in place. My boss is also pragmatic about letting me take a different day off for parents hospital appointments.

So in my job, it's doable. For God's sake don't tell Jacob Rees-Mogg !

The plan I was suggesting wasn't even a 4 day week at 80%, but a 5 day week worked in 4 on a rota so the factory was staffed all week. The reaction was totally unexpected and out of character and another member of the SLT confided in me that he thought the MD was out of order.

@bearnecessities The Employee Forum is supposedly a "safe space" that meets monthly and is for discussing non business critical subjects. Certainly didn't feel too safe that day...

we have a rolling agreement that Fridays are to be meeting free and if you can, you take the afternoon off. It is done on trust that we are all adults and know what we need to do to get the job done. Sometimes Fridays are like any other day, more often than not they are a chance to catch up on emails and do some actual work. I find that this works well as a middle ground between 4 day working and 5 day working.

Your MD sounds like they are just saying words. I have met many like this in our transition to hybrid working, say all the right things but don't have the trust in the employees to actually do anything of note to make a change. Annoying.

I think it is a great idea. Life is short and we spend too much of it working in my opinion.

As in the same hours just spread over 4 days (longer days)?

If it was 4 normal days at 100% pay, I’d be wondering if you were over staffed.

Well I already work 4 days, although it is for health reasons. Pay hasn’t dropped much at all as the company claimed on its income protection policy (which is nice). If you are ever in the position to go 4 days can I recommend taking a Wednesday off. It really is the best day take.

As in the same hours just spread over 4 days (longer days)?

Yes, but this would only affect the factory staff, and even then not all of them. The office staff already WFH 3 days per week.

The MD's rant included some blather about quality issues that have cost us over £400k implying that the factory was at fault. Further investigation revealed it is supplier issues with a high cost item that goes direct to the customer 9 times out of 10 and every time in the case of the quality problems.

Depends how productive your employees are at the moment vs how productive they could be. I would start with assessing that. You need to quantify why 4 days would be better than 5.

It's easier to asses production staff - they have much more measurable activity, than someone in marketing.
Can they make the same amount of stuff in 4 days? If so, why not?
Sounds like your boss can't see what he would get out of it. IE What would he do on the Friday?!

I’ve been working a 40h (50+ in reality) 4 day week for 12 years. I’m not sure there’s much more work/life balance. People still expect a lot, people still schedule things for my Friday off… in the winter, 12 hour days and two hours of cycle commuting in the dark can become draining…

I could run a marathon in probably 5hrs but I couldn't run 7 marathons in a working week. Give me 5 days and I'd still only be able to run one.

@molgrips nice.

Despite not being particularly ground breaking in many areas, my small company (that I work for, not own to be clear) has introduced a new policy - following reading about 4 day weeks - that if we hit our monthly target, we get the last Friday of the next month off. That’s the whole company, not individuals.
We’ve made 4 out of 5 since that was introduced.
Talk of in the future it moving to fortnightly on the same arrangement.

You get to discuss work/life balance during an employee forum, goodness how civilised!

I've worked various shift patterns for the last 20 years, need to cover weekends so we do extended days with days off during the week.

But I've just seconded into a Mon-fri 9-5 position. It's insane. What a relentless, thankless grind. Maybe it'll feel better in summer when evenings are nicer.

If my secondment becomes permanent, I will definitely apply to drop a day. The two day weekend should be consigned to history.

I took a new job a few months ago that involved a 1.5 hour commute (bike+train) and minimal WFH. Because of that I opted for 80% hours on 80% pay. The commute is so intense though that it's hard for me to measure the effect on my productivity. Some weeks Thursday afternoon becomes the new Friday afternoon and some I manage to work like it's a normal day. I probably take fewer brain-breaks through every day and this week I got more done than I have in a long long time, but that could just be change meaning I'm less bored. It would be very hard for me to go back to 5 days even without the commute.

Ooh thanks @doomaniac I was going to start a thread on this. The study in the OP talks about a 4 day week being

100% of the pay, for 80% of the time, in exchange for a commitment to delivering 100% of the output.

Presumably this works because as @richardkennerley says a 5 day work week tends to feel like a huge grind and people end up working at about 60% to get through it. Makes sense to me.

It's common for companies in Fife / Lothians to do a 4 1/2 day week, with slightly extended hours on the Mon-Thurs.
When I swapped to this I asked for Fridays off - and it's the best thing I ever did.

New job is a 4-day week on a 80% salary, but equivalent to what I was on.

You get to Thursday (end of the week) without feeling beaten up. My headspace is a lot better and I got just as much done (technical writing) as on a 5-day week.

In the pharma industry it's very common for staff to work 3 or 4 day weeks - because many are working mums. You just know when they are off and book calls around it.

I work for myself (and have for many years). This year I'm trying to take a day off a week. Not always Friday but generally when the weather is good and I can clear my diary far enough in advance (these two things are tricky to manage!). I feel really bad as working for yourself you do get into a 'billing' culture - not working, not earning but having the extra day off has been great. Also made me super efficient in getting work done as I know I can't leave it till the next day.

I've not looked at the timesheet to prove it, but I reckon I'm probably 'working' similar hours, and spending less time doing non productive things. I'm glad I don't run bigger companies anymore as I reckon it'd feel like a big jump moving all staff to a four day week.

I switched to compressed hours about 6 months ago, I now work my normal 37 hour in 4 days rather than 5. Benefits are the additional day off but it has made my work days very long and with little time to do much else. It can be a pain as the rest of my organisation are still on 5 days so trying to work around different schedules is annoying. It would probably work much better if everyone was on four days but it's not really possible in my organisation.

I think in my role it would be possible to do five days of work in four (reduced rather than compressed hours) but not realistic at the moment.

Depends how productive your employees are at the moment vs how productive they could be. I would start with assessing that. You need to quantify why 4 days would be better than 5.

Obviously depends on the business but the recent study shows it can be doable - the businesses volunteered, so possibly self selecting, but happier staff, less days lost to illness etc seemed to keep productivity up

I think it's a great idea. Work life balance in high stress jobs is hard to achieve doing a mon-fri, by the time 6pm Friday night rolls around you're exhausted, Saturday you're trying to fit in as much as possible and get all chores done so you can relax on Sunday, when Sunday rolls around you're pressured to try and make the absolute most of it before the week starts all over again and by 6pm Sunday night the Monday dread starts to set in.

I'm contracted 37.5 hours a week but with it being a global company with meetings from 8am till 6.30pm and looking over a 24x7 team I often ended up doing anywhere from 43 to 48hrs a week and I'm not allowed O/T due to my contract, from HR's point of view I should only be working 9am-4.30pm and not a minute more, they would tell me not to attend meetings outside of my core hours but that would cause more issues than it's worth.
I've recently been approved to work a 9 day fortnight so now I do 8.5hrs Mon-Thu, 1 Friday is 7 hours the next Friday I'm off. Fridays are the quiet days so I actually get to finish at 3pm my working Friday and having the extra day off every other week is a god send, I'm loving it. But a 4 day working week would be amazing.

I've been working a 4 day week for the last 3+ years. I have Wednesdays off. Absolutely love it, never do more than 2 days work in a row!

I picked Wednesdays as there is a local riding group who set off at 8am every Wednesday for 100-130k cafe ride.

Almost all my wife's friends in Holland (she's Dutch) work 4 day weeks. They are mainly middle to senior management in both public and private sector. Its totally normal. Some do a full week and some work pro-rata. A couple do 5 days then 4 then 5 etc. They also work mostly from home when they can and cycle to the office when they can't. They get more holiday and also even senior roles get paid overtime if they want to claim it.

Somehow the country still works, the roads and infrastructure is way better than ours and there are tomatoes and eggs on the shelves (though they have gone up in price a lot)

I’m contracted 37.5 hours a week but with it being a global company with meetings from 8am till 6.30pm and looking over a 24×7 team I often ended up doing anywhere from 43 to 48hrs a week and I’m not allowed O/T due to my contract, from HR’s point of view I should only be working 9am-4.30pm and not a minute more, they would tell me not to attend meetings outside of my core hours but that would cause more issues than it’s worth.

Sounds like a similar setup to me (although my contract is 40h pw). The work is interesting but feeling really burned out after 6 months in the role.

Ultimately its counter-productive to the company to have this sort of high-pressure / long hours / no overtime setup because the employee is constantly thinking about moving on to somewhere else but try telling that to the bosses.

I switched to compressed hours about 6 months ago, I now work my normal 37 hour in 4 days rather than 5.

I do a 40 hour week in 4 days, been doing it a few years now. I work from home too so there is still time to do other things for me. Works in my situation as half the team I'm on are west coast US so I get a bit more overlap with them (I do 8am-6 or 7pm UK time). I could work all my hours flat out but only for a short period before I burn out and both my productivity and quality decrease. Maybe that'd change if I was working fewer hours, maybe not. I've worked "crunch" at a games company before and it's not pretty.

Working from home allows me to compress my 37hr week into 4 days.

Much to my industries annoyance as they are begging for people to work overtime, nobody will do this due to the tax threshold limits.

So, whilst the studies say that 4 day week is more productive, the chancellor says that there's a massive shortfall of people at work.....

Most people I know enjoy working 4 day week. Long may it continue 🙂

So, whilst the studies say that 4 day week is more productive, the chancellor says that there’s a massive shortfall of people at work…..

The two statements don't contradict each other.

Making people work longer hours has been shown to not increase productivity after a certain point.

I offered all of my staff a four day week as a trial back in June of 2021. The deal was Monday to Thursday 8.30 to 5.30 instead of Monday to Friday 9 to 5. The trial was to run until Xmas that year with a review in January 2022. Money stayed the same (effectively a 9% pay rise if you work it out hourly).

I gave the staff the choice of keeping the 4 day week with longer hours or going back to 5 days a week unsurprisingly everyone chose 4 days - who wouldn't want an extra 48 days a year off. So I am sitting here in a deserted office with no phones ringing catching up on stuff. I don't see us ever reverting to 5 days.

From my perspective as the business owner. We are more efficient, the staff are more loyal to the company even our clients think its great. Personally, I always used to use Sundays as my own catch up day where I could clear my work backlog undisturbed. Now I get to do it on a friday and ride my bike on a Sunday so big win all round.

More people should be brave enough to do it.

No thanks I’m happy with my 3 days thanks

"I offered all of my staff a four day week as a trial back in June of 2021. The deal was Monday to Thursday 8.30 to 5.30 instead of Monday to Friday 9 to 5. "

Problem here is that everyone I know in the UK  may be contracted to work 9-5, 5 days a week but almost always ends up working longer hours to get the job done. Who walks in the office at 9 and walks out at 5? Simply doesn't happen in my experience. Starting at 8.30 and working till 6.30 is pretty much the norm but its unlikely that dropping to 4 days will mean a 7.30 start and an 8.00 finish, people will draw the line at that.........company owners know this and so unless you are interested in the wellbeing of your staff (very few companies are - NJA is an exception) you will be anti 4 day week as you'lll lose the free labour you're getting at the moment

Office based with a strong Union here. This is perfect territory for Unions to make a difference 💪

Who walks in the office at 9 and walks out at 5? Simply doesn’t happen in my experience.

Depends where you are. That's common in my workplace, but then we're all underpaid compared to the private sector. We get a good work/life balance, but it costs us about 20% in salary. It suits most of us though - there are a lot of parents with responsibilities that mean they can't just stay an extra hour or two here and there.

In 2019 I was looking to move, after seeing a job elsewhere that paid 30% more for (apparently) the exact same role. Albeit with less holidays, etc.

Then I got long COVID. And I've been working 4.5 days a week for nearly 3 years, with no change in pay. And I really value the support, and won't be leaving any time soon! Even after I get better, I feel like I owe them one, so wouldn't want to leg it as soon as I'm able.

Depends where you are. That’s common in my workplace, but then we’re all underpaid compared to the private sector. We get a good work/life balance, but it costs us about 20% in salary. It suits most of us though

Same here. My job is so flexible and easy going it's ridiculous. I occasionally daydream about having more money but to be honest I'm not willing to give more of my life to a job. I walk to work, I leave at 4:30 on the dot. I can leave any time there's a childcare emergency, no questions asked.

I've had plenty of nightmare jobs and marathon commutes in the past. I'm not going back, they can keep the money. What would I buy anyway, a VW van?

There's some people here with jobs and routines that would totally finish me off.

I think it is a great idea and I do it already - I cut my hours and pay to 90% and do them Tues-Fri.

Fridays off every week are a great idea for the person that has them but only work if everybody does it. In any operational business area where you have to support the whole organisation over all business hours it gets difficult. I have had to turn down leave and compressed hours requests etc in the past because some idiot before me let half the staff drop Friday afternoons, then by the time you get a few on pre-arranged leave and a bit of sick leave you are stuffed, and the people who do work that day hate you and everybody else who "look at me my life is fab I don't work Fridays"

Employer here. I get it... challenges to work through though:

What about holiday allowance and accrual, and parity for those that already work part time?
Continuity of service for a 24/7 business
What about those already working 4 day/wk contracts (matter of fairness)
What will this do to the flexible culture we've nurtured - we'll actually be putting in place more structure/need more from less time
A lot of work is still going on on Mondays and Fridays that we can't control - events, conferences etc
I have seen instances of people working second jobs (in other businesses) when they went down to 4 days - and then become burnt out
What about those who want to work 5 (or more!) days
And to echo Hels's point how do we support each other on live work and keep the pace up on days of absence.

None of this is insurmountable, but a lot to work through for a small org before making the leap.

What about those already working 4 day/wk contracts (matter of fairness)

They get a 25% pay rise!

I took a 20% pay cut when I went part time, but I can't see our company every going for 4 day week. However, if they did, I'd like my missing 25% back..

A lot of people have been brainwashed into accepting that 5 days a week is just what we do. Colleagues I have discussed it with just don't get it and can't see that an arbitrary 5 days a week could just as easily be an arbitrary 4 days a week. What is pretty obvious where I work is that everybody is doing **** all on a Friday anyway (no meetings, very little email etc,.) so may as well not be working.

A lot of people have been brainwashed into accepting that 5 days a week is just what we do.

Well it used to be 6 days! You only got Sunday off to maintain the power the Church had over society...

The company I contract to have gone on a 4 day week, staying shut on a Friday which started in January.
They still expect employees to do 37 hours per week so have changed the hours in a working day from 8 to 9.25 hours to make up for Friday shutdown.

It makes sense. Speaking as someone who did shifts with 7 day weeks for years. 7 on 2 off. 7 on 2 off. 7 on 3 off. An extra day off every so often brought it down to 40 hours average.

When I did a spell in a dept where I worked alt 6 day weeks and 4 day weeks it fely likea holiday.

Even if there is no reduction in hours it makes obvious sense to me to work 4 x 10 hr days.

Even better is my current 3 day 22 hours job of course with an irregular pattern which gives me full weeks off every so often without using holidays.

I was fortunate enough to have set up a small business (grew to 15 people), and being mine, could make decisions (not always fun). I moved to 4-day week - critically not compressing 5 into 4, not reducing pay/benefits, but mostly because I really wanted to and I hoped the team would benefit and as a business, we'd be OK. This was 10 years ago. The business did well, I exited recently and it's now 30+ people, doing really well and strict on the 4 days.

for me, it'll only work if it's a top down approach, and really disciplined about it. Becasue I was lazy and wanted it, it meant the team believed it would really be 4 days ... and it was. And our clients were positively intrigued so no downside there.

Huge fan of it.

The point of this trial is that they all got the same amount done. They worked faster.

Becasue I was lazy and wanted it,

You're lazy and indecisive, and used this as a basis to build a successful company? PLease tell us more. That would be the kind of management book i might actually want to read!

What about holiday allowance and accrual, and parity for those that already work part time?
Continuity of service for a 24/7 business
What about those already working 4 day/wk contracts (matter of fairness)

Holiday time doesn’t change, 24/7 business just spread the days across the week like they do now. Those working 4 day contracts still can but they could do longer days or keep their sort days.

4 day week is being talked about where I work. We currently work 4 full days Mon-Thurs and 4hrs on Fri, 4 days would just mean an extra hour a day Mon-Thurs. We clock in and out so never do any un-paid hours.

Who walks in the office at 9 and walks out at 5? Simply doesn’t happen in my experience.

This has become a worrying thing for me. In previous jobs I’d work my contracted hours with any overtime resulting in pay or hours in lieu. It seems to be getting more common for people to work beyond their contracted hours or be expected to perform work related tasks with no remuneration.

A lot of people missing the point of 4 day week. You do the same hours on the four days as you would have before you don't do extra hours to make up for the lack of a fifth day (that is compressed hours working).

The theory being that you get as much done in the 4 days as you previously did in the five due to better mental state, prepared to work a bit harder as better 'deal' with employer and so on. The companies that have done it properly have seen no noticeable loss of output but it clearly won't work for certain jobs where a person can produce n things per hour already working as best they can.

I'm pretty flexible with my working but generally prefer to work 5 (or even 6) days and then take more days off together to make a 4 or 5 day weekend or extra weeks of holiday. It probably averages out to a 4 day week.

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Think it depends on the type of work and stress. Having recently gone down to 3 days a week (less pay) the stress of the job is still there in the background, however the extra days off to live more is worth it. The older I get, the more I realise work is not life. Life is outside of work and I just want to get home without being tired.

It would be great if companies gave their staff and teams the option to work with more flexibility but for a lot of jobs, this isn't possible.

We once had a lad mention sabbatical. The mob turned up at his house that night, he and his family were never seen again, run out of town they were.