3rd party vent (private car sale)

Private sale, 2 months later, **** off. You take the chance. It's a cheap car...

Arkell v Pressdram would be the correct response

I’d tell them that you are in no way at fault and couldn't have foreseen the issues, and basically that’s what happens in private vehicle sales. If they’d wanted some recourse they’d have bought from a dealer with some warranty. That’s life, got stung just like this when I was younger, they’ll just have to accept it, don’t give an inch else you’ll be giving grounds for liability on prior knowledge (which you clearly didn’t have).

Agree with the above, just really feel rubbish and now had an awful weekend since being informed, initial feeling was to try and fix the issue but wife quickly reeled me in and after seeking the advice I’m glad she did.

Gut feeling is after my response they will escalate to small claims as they indicate they can’t take the financial hit.

That adage about selling to family and friends has now rung true.

And test driven.... you do not know how the car was driven after purchase (we bought a cheap £2k Aygo in autumn, son drove it too hard and cracked a weld on the cat, hitting a bit pot hole = full new exhaust, manifold back. Cost us as we needed it on the road - exhaust was knackered and needed replacing, but not a cat. Given a bit of 'time' cost replacement would have been half on the drive...

In the pantheon of stuff that goes wrong with cheap second hand cars a clutch and Aircon are not bad at all.

Sounds like whoever has bought it is a walloper.

3600 quid car in today's market.

Lucky the thing has a valid mot for more than 6 weeks.

I've been there myself on both sides. He'll be raging but you're in the clear in my eyes.

If he causes you any grief at work just share this thread around.

Cheers all, whilst still feeling decidedly rubbish about the whole situation having a number of impartial viewpoints is helpful.

I believe as they were discussing it that the vehicle was to be used for a trip to Switzerland possibly towing dinghies. But I have no way to evidence this as it was just a conversation and I’m not sure it took place due to various issues.

standby with popcorn tomorrow

Caveat Emptor

2 months though... Discovered on the drive home he might have a point. 2 months later. Nah. At best he sounds like a chancer. At worse like he's trying to exploit his senior position at work to bully you into something you're not liable for. Block his number and ignore him unless specifically and exclusively work related.

Sounds like no fault lies with you. Apart from breaking the rule of selling to someone you have a connection to - however tangential. Never. Never.

I'd personally be having a quiet word with your line manager at work. Not making a big deal of this but if there is a flair up at work or things get vindictive, it would be good to have someone on your side and forewarned. Just a dispassionate explanation of the sale and maybe share the recent message.

You have absolutely no obligation of any kind - legal, moral or financial - to do anything.
Small claims court? They have no chance of success.
You have the various whats app messages you refer to?
The buyer is a work colleague several positions senior to you and is indicating they can't take the financial hit?
You dropped the price by 10% for servicing and cleaning they wanted done; you've already been done once.
You don't know how the car has been driven/used/abused in the two months since you sold it.
The response to them is...NO.
As an aside, can the buyer damage your career prospects?

Ask them if they used the £400 you knocked off for it to be serviced and cleaned like they said they would.
If yes then tell them to Go back to the garage,if they didn't well that's not your problem.

Entirely his problem, the only awkward point being that they're a senior colleague. Even if the problems were latent when he bought it, they didn't spot them for 2 months, so can't argue that you knew about them.

I'd be passing a word back via the third party who put you in touch, pointing out that they have no evidence that you misrepresented it, and that any such suggestion to any of your colleagues would be slander. And, as above, they should go and look up Arkell v Pressdram.

What were the two known faults ? And were they in any way related to the issues they are having ?

I sold a car that caught fire as the guy was filling up at the petrol station on his drive home. He rang to question this and I explained that his warranty expired when he gave me the cash.

He was reasonably amicable, shrugged and say it was a TVR so these things happen.

**Slightly edited for effect. Still friends with the guy and have bought and sold car stuff with him since

Could be worse 🙂
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/10/geico-woman-std-car-insurance-company-must-pay

That has to be peak litigious USA! 😳

I’d personally be having a quiet word with your line manager at work. Not making a big deal of this but if there is a flair up at work or things get vindictive, it would be good to have someone on your side and forewarned. Just a dispassionate explanation of the sale and maybe share the recent message.

Is the buyer in a position to retaliate at work? Make sure every communication is via something you can keep (ie text-based).

Legally he hasn't got a leg to stand on, and if he really is several ranks above you in the company, I suspect he is in the position to take the financial consequences of buying a cheap used car. But possibly not ready for the consequences to his ego.

Buyer sounds like a prize bozo, but like you I'd feel bad if I'd been the seller and would probably offer a full refund if it had been the day after sale but 2 months absolutely jog on mate.

You haven’t mentioned it so I assume no sale receipt completed by both parties? Basically sold as seen/no guarantee templates can be found online, AA website has a good one I’ve used before. Either way he needs to be told to politely jog on.. bit awkward given he’s more senior than you at work but frankly he’s taking taking the piss. 3 and half grand car, 2 months in an he’s cracking on about clutch/AC?! Nah, wind ya neck in bonny lad. I mean AC could be anything FFS, my wifes old fiesta had a stone make a right mess of the condenser and was a fairly hefty bill to get it all sorted.

2 months? He can jog on. No idea how big your employer is, but a word with HR might be worthwhile

I'd be politely, but very firmly, advising your colleague they have absolutely no recourse.

And it shouldn't affect your working relationship if one exists. If so, inform HR of the situation.

How someone can expect some kind of "warranty" from a private sale after two months beggars belief.

Once the money changes hands & the receipt is written you're off the hook. The vehicle has to be "as described". It's a private sale. I always write in block capitals on the receipt "Vehicle inspected by buyer prior to purchase, NO WARRANTY WRITTEN OR IMPLIED"

After two months? They are having a giggle.

I had this with my deceased FIL VW camper I sold on behalf of my MIL. Described with faults but it didn't stop the **** ringing up wanting some money back a few days later.
Told him I wouldn't be entertaining any further conversation and to instruct his solicitor and court proceedings if he felt aggrieved.
In other words tell him to FO and buy trade next time.

Nope tell him to jog on !

Don't feel guilty, that's an absolute joke. Officially no recourse anyway but to try it on after two months is mad.

Clutch, you can scrub of years of life just through bad habits...or one botched attempt at recovering said dinghy.

Aircon, he should have checked it was working on the test drive!

What sort of employer do you have? One with some wellbeing support (being legal advice for various personal/family situations) I.e financial.

Thanks again all

To clarify, faults were a tatty re spray of the rear bumper by previous owner and a reverse sensor issue not investigated. They were happy to accept that.

His position means yes at some point he could and probably will have some influence over my career. Whether he would or not I don’t honestly know but clearly I would hope that’s not something that will happen.

All contact has and will now remain using WhatsApp as he’s already supplied the transcripts as evidence in his letter of my not telling him about the clutch or ac (which I wouldn’t as I didn’t know).

In hindsight yes a form of receipt would have been useful as would not selling to a colleague but it originally looked to be a nice simple solution at a time where my time wasn’t in abundance.

car has developed 2 major (clutch and air con) faults

Key word here is developed. Faults were not there when sold but are there now. So when vehicle was purchased the air con worked and there were no signs of clutch issue.
Things can go wrong 2 months after buying or 2 years after buying but if not there when sold then tough.
Buyer most know that so yes they are being a chancer.

Guys a dick.

I'd have a quiet word with hr too

Clutch is not usually covered in most of those dodgy warranty policies sold, or added by smaller traders. Its a wear and tear item. A very expensive one but still a consumerable part.
Aircon slightly different as it could be one of many inter linked parts any one of which failing would cause the system to fail.
All irrelevant as its buyer beware, caveat emptor on second hand cars.
2 days in i would probably be inclined to mediate but 2 months, no chance.
Tough luck for the new owners but that's the dice roll in running second hand cars. At 3600 its probably 10 years old and most of the way through its design life.
No idea what the CAB are doing writing letters, they should be saying suck it up, no recourse on used cars so ignore this.

Tricky as its work related but you are going to have to be very firm and not give anything towards costs otherwise its a potential blank cheque for the new keeper. With ongoing liability, what if the exhaust needs replacing next week etc

... evidence in his letter of my not telling him about the clutch or ac ...

That's why you take the car for a test drive. These are things that would be immediately obvious if present at the time. Buyer's responsibility to make a good purchase.

There is an obligation on the seller to supply a roadworthy vehicle, and any description of the vehicle should be accurate. There is no obligation to warranty faults. Even if they were present at the time of sale, a private owner isn't necessarily going to have the expertise to understand them - many people would be completely unaware of the symptoms of a clutch reaching the end of its life.

Neither would you expect every fault to be listed on what is presumably an old car. Any buyer should expect it to come with some faults and maintenance costs. Any fault that develops after the sale is absolutely nothing to do with the seller.

The guy is taking the piss and arguably abusing his position in the company.

I would also guess at that price it is around 10 yrs old and higher mileage. After 2 months he is trying his luck.

Is the ac a fault or does it just need regassing - did you get it done and have receipt?

The clutch sounds like an already worn clutch, which is not a fault, has been finished off with excessive wear by towing a loaded trailer possibly with no mechanical sympathy.

Edit- I have also seen stone damage to aircon. Fired off the back wheel of a rear wheel drive car through the grill and embedded in the radiator. This won’t go to court as he would have to prove you knew about these things.

The money off for service would cover that.
Clutch is not a warranty item so is non relevant - even if it is a fault you can’t be expected to strip the car down to check before sale.

Inform your line manager and HR with the facts.

This is exactly why I took the hit and shifted my last two cars through WBAC

It’s all been said. Used, old car: things wear out. He got 2 months out of it before these faults developed! Must have been fine before then so ‘sorry dude, it worked fine when it left me. It looks like you broke it and that’s your problem to fix’

Clutch is something that he could have checked by driving it.

Aircon - fickle systems.

Both are hardly ‘major’ faults. That’d be the CHG or some hideous belt or chain thing wrecking the engine.

Hmmm, I’d offer a goodwill gesture of a few quid towards the clutch,and explain both clutches and and aircon are pretty much consumables.

Yes you shouldn’t but as it’s work related I’d do it to smooth it all over and tbh how you resolve issues can make a very big difference.

I’m 100% on the side of the OP

So the buyer is claiming you sold a car with working AC and clutch. But that you knew they were both about to stop working. It just doesn’t make any sense.

Hmmm, I’d offer a goodwill gesture of a few quid towards the clutch,and explain both clutches and and aircon are pretty much consumables.

No.

No.

This, only with frozen sausages. Bruneep had the right response here three posts in. It's their car, WTF has it got to do with you?

Gut feeling is after my response they will escalate to small claims as they indicate they can’t take the financial hit.

Let them, they'll get laughed out of the building.

A person "several levels senior" has bought a cheap car and can't take the financial hit? Do me a quaver.

Probably the type of person who finds reasons not to pay tradespeople who work on his house. Some people just go through life in default bully mode (and normally it works out pretty well for them, hence his seniority).

The problem with HR is they are there to protect the company, which may be problematic if they value the senior employee more than a lower-ranked one.

Service desk at local garage was explaining to me how one customer managed to destroy the clutch on their brand new car within 100 miles of receiving simply as a result of their (unique) driving style... The clutch is considered to be a consumable so, if the buyer test drove the car and considered that it was ok, then its their problem as soon as they own the car.
Aircon failed? Well, so what? Again, that's a consumable.
Complaining about these 2 months in (when anything could have happened to the car in the 8 weeks since you sold it) on a cheap-ish second hand car, well that's just having a laugh and having negotiated a discount for service and cleaning then it really, truly, 100% is the buyers problem, not yours.

As everyone else is saying, its a case of buyer beware so frankly they can jog on.

If the buyer gives you any grief at work, that's an issue to report to your line manager/HR as its not work related.

All contact has and will now remain using WhatsApp

What contact, why are you still talking to him?

as he’s already supplied the transcripts as evidence in his letter of my not telling him about the clutch or ac (which I wouldn’t as I didn’t know).

It was fine when you sold it. A useless gimmer can easily burn out a clutch in two months. With sufficient effort they could probably do it in half an hour. I see them regular away in Tesco car park, some old dear in a Nissan Micra pulling out of a parking space, barely troubling walking pace with the engine screaming its tits off.

I’d offer a goodwill gesture of a few quid towards the clutch

I've just thought,

More seriously, this could be construed as acceptance of liability.

Private sales aren't as clear cut as folks seem to think above. If you misrepresent the thing being sold, you may be liable.

For example, if you advertise a car as fault free, and when the buyer gets home he discovers the Aircon is broken, you have misrepresented the car and are liable. If you list it as "no known faults" you are ok (as long as you don't know about it).

2 months later, unless the faults were discovered day1 and he just forgot, he can jog on

Yea, don't even entertain the idea of giving him money back. Just politely say no on Monday, and then ignore it. Don't even get into a conversation where as someone up there said "you've not got any evidence" as that just makes you sound guilty! "Sorry to hear you've had car trouble recently, but not my problem"

How big is the company? Do you have a conflict of interest policy? If it's a moderately large company it may be worth sending them a message explaining the situation. It's not a "HR issue" at this point, because nothings happened. But it is a conflict of interest that at some point could get the company in trouble if you don't get pay/promotion/training/etc and it's perceived that they had an influence on that decision.

The problem with HR is they are there to protect the company, which may be problematic if they value the senior employee more than a lower-ranked one

But legal advice and the like is often outsourced so should be impartial.

I wouldn't get too wordy in your replies, single sentences such as Sold as Seen, no known faults at point of sale etc. Don't give in and start discussing anything in detail, it's just going to get you in deeper and potential he will be able to take your comments out of context and use them against you.

My brother sold my sister his Freelander. She still blames him for everything that went wrong with it. I LOL whenever I think of it, although he is sick of the constant comments from her...

How's it gone OP?

Well, message and attached letter of flat refusal delivered. Read by the buyer and ........ nothing! So I’m still expecting an invite to the small claims court but not had an actual response.

meh

How big is the company? Do you have a conflict of interest policy? If it’s a moderately large company it may be worth sending them a message explaining the situation. It’s not a “HR issue” at this point, because nothings happened. But it is a conflict of interest that at some point could get the company in trouble if you don’t get pay/promotion/training/etc and it’s perceived that they had an influence on that decision.

A conflict of interest policy relates to how an individual undertakes their business in a manner which won't negatively the employer.
I can't see any relevance in this situation which involves a private transaction between two employees outwith the scope of the organisation (either HR or conflict of interest).

 message and attached letter of flat refusal delivered.

by what method whatsapp? hopefully not via work email

Private sale, no comeback.

Definitely not work email, yes WhatsApp

As said previously. Caveat emptor - buyer beware. Not your problem, unless you make it yours by offering compensation.
They are trying it on and potentially abusing their position within the company. Nothing will come from SCC.

It’s not your fault OP.

An arsehole trying it on - he's gone quiet cos he hasn't got a leg to stand on. You can forget it.
(Always receipt, even if its just to say "Sold as seen")

I've known a few people whose clutch failed not long after buying from a trader/dealer. They were all told - consumable part, jog on.

No doubt when the tyres and brakes are worn, he'll come asking for more money 🙄

A conflict of interest policy relates to how an individual undertakes their business in a manner which won’t negatively the employer.
I can’t see any relevance in this situation which involves a private transaction between two employees outwith the scope of the organisation (either HR or conflict of interest).

They can (and do) also include things like friendships/relationships in the office. Just had a read through ours (I'm working two jobs at the moment so I've got a copy to hand) and one member of staff threatening another with legal action definitely would need reporting. Nothing would happen as a result, you'd just not work on the same projects if there's a seniority difference. Same as there's plenty of married couples, you have to tell the company, but only so they can make sure one isn't managing the other and making pay/promotion/redundancy decisions.

It's not just, did you accept a novelty keyring/multimillion dollar bribe from the client?

As other have said, the issue is not your legal liability, but how to 'play' things at work, where simply telling them to **** off isn't really possible. I'd probably have said something along the lines of "I'm sorry this happened to you, but it's really not something I could have foreseen, and of course I am not liable for xyz. Also I resent the implication that I have done you a disservice when, in fact, I offered you a great deal because of our personal connection. I trust that this won't harm our working relationship."

Is there someone senior to you / level with him that you could speak to? Explain your side, how you're really disappointed with the implication that you've done something wrong. In an ideal world, your senior confidante would have a quiet work in buyer's ear to let them know that this is simply not on.

Just had a quick chat with a legal advisor who gives free advice through our union. Effectively confirmed everything you’ve all said and the CAB say.

I'm going to have a look at our hr policies and will speak with my station boss as there may be a time in the future that work I do or projects I’m working on may pass under the buyers nose for authority.

Feeling a a lot more stable now a few days on from officially replying.

Good.

Guy sounds like a right throbber. You've done nothing wrong.

Like I say I'd just touch base with HR to cover your arse and move on!

Keep any messages, emails and log any issues you get from him in and outside work very carefully with date and time just in case you start getting hassle in work - hopefully he will go away after trying it on but he could be a complete bozo and it spills out in to work and you might need evidence if needs be.
It’s understandable you feel bad but you haven’t a crystal ball and it’s always a risk something may go wrong shortly after buying a car privately so you are not in the wrong batting it back. Ive end up putting cars in to auction as I can’t be doing with this sort of hassle.

Well he’s back!

a week after requesting my address I now have received several screenshots of a conversation he had with a mechanic 3 days after the purchase querying a ‘judder’. So potentially the car did develop an issue. But still no contact in the 2 months, and icing on the cake is the car is listed without the Ac fault and states ‘slight judder, doesn’t affect driving’ for +£400 what he bought it from me. Feeling hugely stressed by the rollercoaster but still can’t see how this changes the facts apart from possibly the car did exhibit a problem. Also believe he’s done approx 2k mileage in that 2 months.

He should have paid his mechanic to look at the car before not after.

Cars wear out. If you want a new car buy a new car.

A bit of clutch judder isn't the end of the world or even a marker that the clutch is goosed. The 🔔 end could have easily blued the flywheel up on the way home.

How's he sent those screen shots? By work equipment?

I'd report him to HR and state his repeated harassment is affected your mental health.

I'd block him from any non work device and log any work correspondence.

And I'd also stick his mobile number on loads of free adds for stuff that's worth £££ in random local papers

He's a prick

What did he want your address for? It's on the V5...

He needs to be told in no uncertain terms to do one.

Ignore latest comms from buyer.
There is nothing for you to respond to - unless you feel like suggesting they should split any profit with you 50/50; that might shut them up.
After all, you discounted by £400.

Whether there were issues there or not, you're not a mechanic or professional dealer, and there's no expectation for you to possess their expertise in determining the condition of the car prior to sale. That responsibility is mainly on the buyer when buying privately. It's not like you were deliberately misleading him. You made an honest sale. You could say he grabbed a short straw but with a car of that age these things are to be expected, and potentially could have been avoided if he had the car thoroughly examined himself.

He should have paid his mechanic to look at the car before not after.

Cars wear out. If you want a new car buy a new car.

Exactly this.

several screenshots of a conversation he had with a mechanic 3 days after the purchase querying a ‘judder’.

and what did said mechanic or "friend" say about it

Mechanic 'conversation' three days after but still knocked around in it for another two months before coming back to you?

and icing on the cake is the car is listed without the Ac fault and states ‘slight judder, doesn’t affect driving’ for +£400 what he bought it from me.

Some mug will buy it off him and then it'll go quiet after that. He'll somehow internalise it that he's stitched you up by flogging it for more than he paid.

@bruneep the mechanics reply wasn’t included in the screenshots sent through.

i suspect he asked for the worst possible case and he said full clutch and transmission replacement which was where he got his non economical repair guff from.

I’ve not revealed that I know the cars listed on a car sale site as that’s kinda my trump card for the small claims if it comes to that, got the screen shots with dates etc. He’d blurred the number plates on all but 1 pic but also there’s a mint sauce sticker still visible on the rear glass that’s pretty identifiable. Also it’s quite clear the photos are taken at a fire station so he can’t really work the angle I shouldn’t of done the sale on a work site as clearly he’s looking to do similar. Chum said it’s stored at the station too currently.

Chum said it’s stored at the station too currentl.

Hope he's told someone it's there and not just stashed it in a corner, it would be terrible if the roof was cut off in a training session 😁

If it was local to me I'd go n waste his time.

Infact any stwers local to you should book to view it not turn up or offer him a pack of polo's and a reacharound....

Happy to take a three digit post code to go and waste their time. ‘HD’ is where I am for the record, DM me if within 10 miles…

I’ve not revealed that I know the cars listed on a car sale site as that’s kinda my trump card for the small claims if it comes to that, got the screen shots with dates etc.

It obviously won't go to small claims, but having that ace up your sleeve must be a nice feeling. 🙂

When you've located the car, print off the best bits of your email convo in large print and slip them under the top end of the bonnet face up so any buyer can read them when he lifts it for a gander. 🙂