[Closed] 2nd hand Defender vs new Toyota Prius: Which is more environmentally friendly?

Defender,
I believe the toyotas batteries raw materials from Canada then shipped to holland then japan then back with the car to the e.u don't do it much good on the green front before it turns a wheel,
pulls up a chair and waits for the tree huggers

Oops, best look at Molgrips posts on the depression thread, lads..

Lifecycle of a secondhand vehicle doesn't make much sense to me.

I'll bet all that Birmabrite in the land rover body took some fair old energy, from its extraction from bauxite to being pressed in to body panels, to be fair

can we carry on about depression in this thread as the other one has been hijacked ?

U31 - Member

I'll bet all that Birmabrite in the land rover body took some fair old energy, from its extraction from bauxite to being pressed in to body panels, to be fair

Ah, but that had happened when the thing was built, you can't change that, you can however, choose not to buy a Prius and prevent the thing being built.

However, I bet most of these still go

[img] [/img]

U31, the point of this thread is that the Defender is second hand so doens't have any enviromental impact being created. It takes a huge amount of enrgy to produce a new car, It is much greener to run cars to a high mileage and vehicles such as landrovers are made out of simple easy to split parts that are perfect for reuse and recyling when they finally die.

It really makes me sick how many perfectly usable cars are destined to be scrapped under the scrappage scheme. Should have been stripped of all usefull parts to help keep more cars going with no extra enviromental impact.

And what happens when the Prius' batteries need replacing in 7 years time? Huge cost and huge recycycling resources

The Defender was new once, wasn't it?

Only thing different in a Prius is a battery, (which isn't that big) and they are made from recycled and recyclable materials.

Poor troll.

And what happens when the Prius' batteries need replacing in 7 years time?

They don't.

So what is the original purchaser gonna drive?
Or do you suggest we wait till they cork it, and get issued the car upon death, on some form of roster?

If Defender has less than 45,000 miles on it then in effect it is Carbon Neutral as Land Rover make environmental contributions to cover the CO2 emissions.

See [url= http://http://www.landrover.com/gb/en/lr/owners/co2-offsetting/co2-offsetting/ ]here[/url]

Bit of a sop to the environmental lobby I suspect but it does exist.

It really makes me sick how many perfectly usable cars are destined to be scrapped under the scrappage scheme. Should have been stripped of all usefull parts to help keep more cars going with no extra enviromental impact.

Did you see that 'Scort mk2 in the advert for scrapping untaxed cars on top of the pile? Cryin' shame

Don't forget to factor in that u need to replace the paper bag u will be wearing
on ur head at regular intervals if u buy a Prius.!

Has anyone here actually ran a second hand deafener?

Off the top of my head, to keep em running (and mine wernt particularly punished off road... that really DOES make em break!) you needed at least once a year, to change...

CV joints, drive flanges, drive flange gaskets, drive flange caps, universal joints on both prop shafts, half shafts, front differentials, diesel lift pumps, shocker bushes, hockey stick bushes, axle bushes, rear radius arm bushes, both chassis and axle end. Fuel tanks rotted out with alarming regularity unless you bought a Canadian pattern part that was galved, the front shock mount towers on non air suspension models rotted out for fun, and every year you were gaurunteed to break the welder out to repair either the bulkhead or chassis for MOT..

Oops, i almost forgot the rear brake pads jumping out, needing new calipers and discs, front disc used to wear out fairly quick too on vented types

Assuming the cars were both brought new and drove the same milage and were scrapped upon the same day, possibly the Landrover. The Prius is a Jekyl and Hyde mish mash, as someone quite rightly pointed out the nickel in the battery is produced in Canada then shipped to Holland and then sent to Japan. The Area around the factory were the nickel is produced is heavily polluted due to the conecntration of toxic materials.

If you looked at the newer Lithium Ion battery powered Prius, you would need to question were the electricity is coming from that recharges the battery. The generation of cleaner electricity is the point to be addressed with coal production being more harmful than emissions.

I have said it before and will say it again the T25 and T27 city cars are/will fulfil what the prius didnt. The lightness and physical practicality of the vehicles (takes less power to charge than a prius), combined with thier ability to be recycled efficently and safer, ability to be produced in one factory which can also double as a show room (no delivery times) is what i think city centres need right now.

Only thing different in a Prius is a battery, (which isn't that big) and they are made from recycled and recyclable materials.

Recycled lithium? really?
So the batteries are made completely from recycled materials?
I thought it all came out of a mine in sudbury, canada which to be fair is no longer highly polluted and has even won environmental awards I believe.

The Defender has alloy body panels, if you think that the Prius's batteries have travelled, try seeing aluminium's.

Probably:

Jamaica (bauxite) to
Canada (alumina then ingot, possibly same site) to
Germany (rolling) to
Wales (more rolling) to
England (extrusion/pressing)

at the least, and if they use re-melt then god-knows.

The one that's only used when it's really needed.

Behavioural changes will probably make more difference than technological.

The one that's only used when it's really needed.

Behavioural changes will probably make more difference than technological.

Ladies and gents, we have our winner!

Bet you cant fix a prius with a sledgehammer...

Bet you cant fix a landie with one either

You can, or at least you can suitably reshape parts of the suspension to a point it's driveable and goes through the next MOT without further work...

If you looked at the newer Lithium Ion battery powered Prius,

It's not Lithium Ion powered.

I have said it before and will say it again the T25 and T27 city cars are/will fulfil what the prius didnt.

Prius is a family saloon, not a city car. Apples and oranges.

The real reason it exists is that environmental legislation prevents (or has prevented) diesels from being popular in the USA, so everyone drives petrols. The Prius is much more economical than the petrol alternatives available there.

Behavioural changes will probably make more difference than technological.

+100

Forgive me if I'm wrong but I read somewere there was a new Prius due late 2010 early 2011 with a Lithium battery, panasonic have been given the task of producing the battery in partnership with Toyota as thier factory will fulfil the green ideal. Solar powered etc... I don't want to sound like I'm knocking the Prius by any means, it just seems a bit of a mix to me.

I agree the Prius isn't specifically designed for city driving but having seen it used often to lower the city centre charges drivers face, it's often seen as a solution that it was not specifically designed for. Comparing a Landrover and a Prius seemed like apples and oranges to begin with, that's why I started my original post suggesting that the two vehicles be compared on a basis of being made and scrapped on the same day etc...

You can, or at least you can suitably reshape parts of the suspension to a point it's driveable and goes through the next MOT without further work...

Remind me never to accept a lift in your car!
You are [url= http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=nigel+gresham&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a ] Gresh [/url] and i claim my £5!!

Listening to people in the know the environmental advantage of the Defender is how few miles it will accumulate with it's gas guzzling enginedue to how often/long it will be in a garage. The downside of course is all the new parts it will need and the carbon cost of manufacture and transport of the parts.

I would also say don't confuse a Defender with a Land Rover. Defenders/Freeloaders are luxury cars not simple utility vehicles as were the original Landies. How many WAGS do you see driving round Cheshire in real Land Rovers?

...didn't know it was still produced as a saloon? But a more practical 5dr?

The Defender will still be around when the Pious is present in the form of 200 baked bean tins and a pile of nasty Li.

A Defender isnt a luxury vehicle...

Its a workhorse pure and simple. The newer Tata built ones are not so much with thier air con and electric windows and transit derived engines, but a TD5 110 Defender aint got much in the way of creature comforts.

Of the Disco I believe you are thinking.

Have you heard the story, i think it goes (figure is for arguments sake and may not be accurate) 60% of land rovers ever built are still on the road today?

The real truth behind it is that a massive massive percentage of land rovers quoted thus have been built in the last 5 years due to increased production so doesnt include all the 80" 86" 107" 88" and 109" that have gracefully rotted in to the ground.

Lies. Damn lies. statistics.

The real reason it exists is that environmental legislation prevents (or has prevented) diesels from being popular in the USA, so everyone drives petrols.

I thought it's actually the poor quality diesel that is sold in the US that's the problem. The legislation is not that stringent, but the emmissions are too high even from modern efficient diesel engines because of the 'dirty' fuel.

Neither is that great. Get a second hand Toyota Yaris or other supermini if you actually want to buy a car and make sure it is as environmentally friendly* as possible.

*Environmentally friendly car 😆 Oxymoron alert.

Do you actually go off-road though?!

I thought it's actually the poor quality diesel that is sold in the US that's the problem.

Not any more. They used to have loads of sulphur in their diesel, but it's all low sulphur now. The problem is with NOx emissions which cause smog, and are an unavoidable characteristic of compression-ignition engines. The US versions of the VW TDIs have to have a small chemical plant in the exhaust system to scrub out the NOx. You think our DPFs and cats are complicated, read up on theirs!

Do you actually go off-road though?!

I did, but not playing about at getting stuck on the mary townley loop, pretending i was in the camel trophy, like most of the grossly overweight offroaders do.
I had a farm. I visited farms, often unpaved access. I towed 3 tonne trailers.

AFAIK scrappage doesn't mean that the parts can't be re-used. My daughter needed a gearbox for her Polo last week, and I was told there's loads of cheap second hand ones around due to Scrappage.

For those who think that Bluemotion Passats are greener than Priuses:

Bluemotion Passat 64.2mpg CO2 115g/km NOx [b]138 mg/km[/b]
Prius 70.6mpg CO2 92g/km NOx [b]9 mg/km[/b]

That's not a typo. Super green Passat produces 15 times more smog-forming chemicals.

But Mol, what about At the point of manufacture?

You tell me.

Like I say, Priuses are made in a super-green solar powered factory. And the battery is not really very big, about 30kg or so. Consider that the whole car is up to 200kg lighter than a Passat, and that 200kg of extra stuff also has to be manufactured, I'm not sure about these wild claims for manufacturing energy costs.

And there this:

For the Prius, Toyota used a new range of plant-derived ecological bioplastics made from the cellulose in wood or grass instead of petroleum.

Oh and the Bluemotion Passat is 105bhp and the Prius 138bhp 🙂

Based on owning a (now) 17 yr old Defender for the last 7 years, and knowing enough people with new cars that are nothing but trouble - I'm going with Defender (heart over head perhaps tho').

Built to be fixed, and put straight back into service - can the same be said of modern cars I wonder?

Mine's a bit luckier than U31's it seems, as it's (touching wood) only big jobs have been a replacement fuel pump, damaged through water ingress when exceeding the wading depth (a bit), and a bit of work when the clutch springs went a a little tight and popped the slave-cylinder off the 'box (which was only held on by one bolt - the other having left to pursue an independent life earlier in time).

Other than that, it's just 'normal' service items, even the mpg is ok, and better than a lot of vehicles (Ok granted - spanking Aluminium out of Bauxite takes a lot of power, and old diesel engines = soot).

I'm not sure I'd fancy trying to fix a modern car that had died ...

I'd agree it is significantly down to behaviours tho'.

And im not certain alone that solar power could generate the energy requirements of an entire car plant. The assembly line, maybe, but its entirety?
And what about the outsourcing components? Are they all certified for green credential
Bolton Plastics make the interior and heating component parts for all majors, and their energy expenditure is astounding, as is Vita, who do the rubbers for screens seals and trims?
(I'm not saying the Prius soursces components from these examples, but trying to broaden the picture)

Half the factory is solar powered

Solar power is one of Tsutsumi’s big features, with 50,000 square metres of panels generating up to 2,000 kW of energy an hour. That’s enough to meet half the site’s total electricity requirements – equivalent to the power used by 500 homes – with the rest sourced from a highly efficient gas co-generation system.

Check out these bad boys:
[img] [/img]

(original link http://blog.toyota.co.uk/prius-tsutsumi-eco-factory)

Mol I've tried to find details of the panasonic factory that I read would produce the new Lithium Ion battery, it was really impressive and produced waste that was mostly water. Miss Catflees hired a golf bluemotion it was awful and gave figures far crapper than VW stated

Sweet 🙂

I had read that the original Bluemotion Polo didn't come close to official figures, but I read an in-depth review of a Bluemotion Passat (the newer one, it changed recently) that said it was pretty decent, around 65mpg for the estate. IIRC they used it as an office run-around for a week.

This question is a very complex one. They key thing is how long the car will last and with prius we still don't know.

It is clear that the environmental cost of making and disposing of a prius are higher than a conventional car. Will this be offset by any savings over its lifetime - I doubt it but its possible

A truly green car is small and light, long lasting and easily recyclable. Something that applies to neither of these cars.

If the pruis was so good toyota would release information about it that currently it refuses to do about the environmental costs of the battery - which are huge. Read up about coltan

I'm going to buy my first car soon (Ive got an MG I'm learning in) but want something enviro friendly with good mpg and cheap insurance. I'd love to get say a Yaris but as i would use it for work I couldn't fit my crap in the boot. Have you found your prius to be reliable? Like a carerra banshee I hear so much mixed things on ownership.

They key think is how long the car will last and with prius we still don't know.

There are many many 200k mile cars out there.

t is clear that the environmental cost of making and disposing of a prius are higher than a conventional car.

No it's not! Don't remember any evidence last time this came up.

A truly green car is small and light, long lasting and easily recyclable

Yep.

Just reading about coltan. The main use seems to be in tanntalum capacitors, which are used in absolutely everything by the trillion.

The first page of google hits for 'coltan prius' contain only co-incidental links ie an article about coltan with a sidebar contianing another unrelated article about Priuses.

Catflees - The Prius has has absolutely nothing at all go wrong with it in 72k miles and 5 years. All it's needed has been tyres, oil, air filters, oil filters, and windscreen wiper blades 🙂 I was told the brake pads needed doing, so I bought some more and the old ones were only half gone 🙁

It's top of the JD power survey for family cars.

Plus if you put the seats down it's as big as an estate 🙂

Molgrips - of course it is higher. You have a conventional car to build - a large and heavy one then you add a battery to it. Rechargeable batteries are polluting to make and dispose of and look at the miles traveled by the components of it.

And don't try to claim photovolataics on the factory make any significant difference as they don't. 10 years simply to recoup the energy cost of making them without allowing for all the pollution that comes from making them

Its lifetime environmental cost you need to consider. When you do this the pruis is not greatly different to any other similar car. We don't know the full figures 'cos Toyota will not release information about he batteries

I still feel like the prius is a mix up of 2 different things rather than the best of both but I really does Fit my needs. I like the fact it's greener than the competition and a bit obscure too. Would look good parked next to the misses supercar too. Ha ha

a large and heavy one

1300kg is not heavy.

Its lifetime environmental cost you need to consider.

Contrary to popular belief I am not stupid.

However I am bored to tears of hearing the exact same old sh*t from you every single time the concept of cars and economy comes up. Just shut the **** up on the subject for all our sakes.

You will never listen to me, I will never listen to you so what's the frigging point? And before you point out that I started it, I was talking to someone else.

Solar panels don't take 10 years to offset the energy used to make them?? I used to live with a scientist who worked in that field who seemed to spend lots of his spare time displacing those kind of urban myths. Say that they did, in 10 years they would be reaping enivromemtal dividends anyway. Even a small percentage of naturally sourced energy is better than none at all.

Absolute cert. bet you No Prius's are about 20 years after they are made. Wqually most Landy's are. the huge % of those made still running popped up many years ago, way before all the new fangled stuff pushed nimbers up. personally I think all new cars are criminal in that they cannot be easily mended. How many fuel injectors are scrapped because the average 17 year old can't mend them. with a Mini you changed the points.

Absolute cert. bet you No Prius's are about 20 years after they are made. Wqually most Landy's are

Not quite the same thing. Landrovers are mostly tools and are made like industrial equippment - which is why they suffer as normal cars for lots of reasons. Try comparing Priuses and say, Passats or Corollas.

How many fuel injectors are scrapped because the average 17 year old can't mend them. with a Mini you changed the points

Again not the same - injectors and points are different altogether. You can work on modern cars anyway, just don't be scared of the computery bits.

[i]Have you heard the story, i think it goes (figure is for arguments sake and may not be accurate) 60% of land rovers ever built are still on the road today?

[/i]

And the other 40% got home!

(it was originally a H-D joke)

A truly green car is small and light, long lasting and easily recyclable

Compared to most modern cars, I would say the Defender probably ticks most those boxes. (Though the new Discovery weighs 2.8tons 😯 )But it's mpg is pretty poor compared to modern cars.

So if you only do 1000 miles a year, probably best to keep it. If you do 30,000 miles a year, probably best to get something significantly more efficient and get the land rover to someone who it's more appropriate for. If you're not towing or driving in fields much anymore.

We just tried doing some LCA at work and it's an absolute head****! That's on a product with just 40 components, so if auto companies manage to know everything about the 1000s & 1000s of components they use, that is a big project.

What, Landrovers small and light? 🙂

But yes.

There are many many 200k mile cars out there.

It was launched in 1997. 200000 miles in 13 years means we're back to modifying behaviour again.

No-one's arguing against driving less!

But if for some reason you have to (or want to) drive 200k miles in 13 years then you might as well do it in a Prius, no?

Anyway, the 200k mile ones are MkIIs which came out in 2003. There's quite a few 300k mile cars too. One of them's a taxi in Montreal, which is a pretty good excuse for doing high miles, no?