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Small claims court would cover it wouldn't it?
Thanks tthew
Price paid was 3341, my first port of call is the bank (whom I've contacted) the second and final option will be small claims. I've done small claims before (although it ended in a settlement prior to court).
I cant see it going to court TBH. But if it does I'll be forced to see it through as it's already cost me about 100quid, court action will be 5or600 at a guess.
For that money I'd push it as far i could on principle if nothing else.
Once you've done him in small claims court, make sure it's a juicy story in your local paper. 🙂
It's not just court fees(about 100)
Ill claim for the independent report in the vehicle (200), postage (60), expenses for the day in court (100), tax and insurance on the vehicle (I hope), additional work trips due use of smaller car 2x a week for however many weeks etc...... + purchase cost.
Once settled it'll be a name and shame, autotrader review etc. But I won't do press as that could cause more issues.
Cost of repair is at best around a grand (I think) at worse a new engine and gearbox. However he's refused his right to repair so it's a refund claim now?
Forgot to mention that the letter also confirmed the fault / part failure but not cause. So they have agnolaged the issue, which is good, but say it's not there 'members' responsibility.
Ok a bit of a new update.
I've written a three page letter back to the warranty company - it looks like they are actually just a sub department of the warranty company and pass them selves off as solicitors in cases like this (although they probably do employ some). They are there to advise there 'members' through the court process and in legalities, rather than directly assist. Their Web site was very interesting and filled with cases where they had claimed a victory, usually where some one was claiming 3 or 4 k solicitors fees or exorbitantly inflated costs. It also gave a nugget of info on how the dealer is also contravening another law by not displaying his registered office address and company number on sales recipes or the site where he trades from.
Pretty sure people would think twice if they were buying from a body repair shop.....
The letter clearly details the fault with the car, reasons the fault could have occurred, the fact it must have been present at time of sale and the fact that the dealer is directly responsible for the fault. I've sited direct passages from CRA 2015 back at them and backed it up with copies of the AA report and photos showing milage and a copy of the sales receipt showing milage at purchase.
I've also asked for copies of any reports that they have on the car and any copies of due diligence the dealer had done prior to sale (pointing out that an mot is irrelevant).
I've also demanded a full refund as the dealer didn't respond within 14 days to my first letter and has failed to start repairs in a reasonable time frame.
Go get 'em. Good luck.
Best of luck OP. Glad you’re fighting it.
Update....
Another letter from the "law firm" just within the requested time frame. This one says that he falsified the milage on the sales receipt (rounding it up) and that I actually have done 800+ miles in my ownership......
Also that engine mounts are checked in an mot (they are not). And they include a pdi check with the correct mileage at time of sale (which they didn't include with the letter and I didnt get when I was sold the vehicle).
I've put a reply together but need to speak to the bank tomorrow prior to sending it. But it's along the lines of... <span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">if your member has sold the vehicle with the incorrect milage on the sales receipt, then he's committed a criminal offence. The vehicle has been sold not as described and I should get my money back. Essentially two pages of legals back at them.</span>
They didn't include any other copies of due diligence I requested prior to sale so I assume there is none. Which means he has no evidence the fault wasn't present at time of sale.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">In other news the b</span><span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">ank have authorised my chargeback claim based on the evidence I gave, so fingers crossed will pursue a refund with his bank and be successful. I've also sent them as further evidence, a copy the new letter and my responce which should add weight to the chargeback.</span>
Im going down the bank route, prior to small claims court, mainly because it's cheaper and quicker for me to try this first. Essentially it doesn't cost me anything so it's worth a try. However, as I paid by debit card it's not covered by law so he can issue court proceedings against me if I'm successful in the refund and he feels that the chargeback is unlawful. If I loose the claim on insufficient evidence I can still take him to scc.
To be fair to the 'law firm' they do a pretty good intimidating letter based on the wooly facts and evidence they have been given and it could shock some one into backing down. But to admit to falsifying milage on a contract doc is a big F' UP on their part and puts more clout to my claim. When you sit down properly read the letter it's full of 'we have been advised' quotes and no documented proof or referral to parts of law or any other evidence. It's essentially just a bit of a shout rant on headed paper.
Still following with interest. Best of luck OP. Too many sharks in this world
Thanks.
I still can't believe that they would put something in writing that could have such big implications against the company.
Yep, chargeback is the cleanest way to go with this. Then report to trading standards etc on the basis of the mileage stuff once the money is safely in your account.
Thanks for the updates and best of luck
OK, spoke to the bank - i can notify the the 'law firm' and the trader in my letter that I've issued chargeback proceedings with the bank. so that's gone off today in my reply.
TBH he should be fully aware by now as I've been issued a temp refund for the large payment already (so that's come out of his bank account). The bank haven't issued a refund for the deposit though, so I've requested that today.
He now has 6 weeks to initially contest, but as the mileage is incorrect on the sales receipt i cant see how he can worm his way out of it. it still could be months before i can actually spend the cash again on a car that actual works - luckily the we didn't put much effort into selling the wife's Clio.
Nice one! Thanks for updating!
Sounds like it's heading in the right direction!
It's getting there. The only issue I have is he has an invoice from his mates garage for looking at the vehicle which says that 'in their opinion' the engine failiure was instant and engine mounts do not 'gradually fail' which is 100% BS.
My issue is finding a garage that'll write a similar letter to the contrary with out spending 100's on an official DEKRA report.
Im hoping this won't have a negative effect on the chargeback. But as he's admitted noting incorrect milage on the invoice this is pretty heavily on my side.
Right, another bit of Google work tonight and I've found out that either he or his wife as director are actually personally liable under company law as only the trading name and not the company name / number were used on the invoice (contract of sale).
Case sample. Hamid v Francis Bradshaw Partnership [2013] EWCA Civ 470
I'm sure I could win in court just on the basis of the contract being cr*p, let alone the car being faulty.
Argument being had I know he was a vehicle body repair shop that also trades cars, would I have bought the car? No. This is a unilateral mistake in the sales contract as it was a mistake that he would have been aware of and misleading me the purchaser into believing he was solely trading cars.
That'll be another letter to the 'law firm' and bank tomorrow then.
I can't remember and can't be bothered reading the whole thread again but did you check DVLA records to see if this car was previously written off and repaired?
I did, and it wasn't - but that doesn't mean it couldn't have had a non financially impact which a previous owner didn't want to repair and sold it to him instead.... there's no way of knowing this without forking out for a DEKRA report.
In other news, the bank has put a temp refund in my account of over 3k - i have to wait 6 weeks before i can spend it (its gathering interest in my ISA). Only the deposit left to get, which i'm writing a letter for today and have also asked the bank to recover.
Fantastic effort monkeyboy, I’m not sure I would have had your tenacity. This is a terrible stain on my character, but a huge gold star on yours. It’s the gamble these bastards take in hoping that someone backs off, gets scared, can’t be arsed.
Must admit, the dealer sounds a lot like Matilda’s father in the Rohald Dahl book!
Its more through requirement than anything - we spent our savings on the car and don't want to go into debt repairing it, and fight for reimbursement at a later date. I could have backed down at the start and gone with his 'trade cost' repair - but firstly this goes against my principals and secondly was still financially not viable at the time.
I do think that the trader involved has been rather naive in how he has run his business rather than had direct malicious intention (ie knowing the vehicle was unsafe/unsatisfactory). The point is he did no due diligence to prove the vehicle was of sound mechanical state. I do pity the next person that has a fault with a car and is required to fight for their rights with him as i have highlight to him where he is failing in his (wife's) business.
However this still isn't over - a visa debit chargeback can be contested by the trader, and i will have to wait a minimum of a further six weeks before i can risk re spending any funds reversed to myself.
Had a further thought on this today...
As the sales invoice states xxxx motor Co, and not xxxx moto Co LIMITED. the contract is between myself and the manager. So technically the 'law firm' doesn't have to get involved as their contract is with a sperate company altogether..... They could also bill him for future work. All depending on their t&cs obviously.
Ha ha.
So, all the money is back in my account. Both transactions refunded through chargeback rather than voluntary though. I had offered in my last letter that if he refunded the final amount I'd drop all action, he didn't, so either it was too late and funds had already been removed from his account or, he foolishly didn't want to play that game.
I'll wait on their next letter to see what cause of action hes taking.
Happy days with that result..
what a stress
It's not over yet - he can contest the chargeback, and I still have the v5 and spare key......
Glad you're having some success, hopefully he won't fight the chargeback
It isn't over - but things just moved from you feeling the stress and making the legwork to him/her now having to fight....
No news from the dealer, he has until Tuesday to respond.
I have noticed that his Web site now has the correct company info (it didn't when I bought the car) and he removed the trading name from companies house. Maybe he's realised (been told by law firm) that what he was doing was illegal and could cause trading standards to investigate leading to large fines....... (as pointed out in my last letter).
Sounds like in the long run you might have even done this guy a favour!
Sounds like in the long run you might have even done this guy a favour!
Probably. Don't hold your breath waiting for the thank you card though.
His law firm will deal with the reply, they know they have 14 days (Tuesday) . If they don't reply to the last letter it's another nail in the coffin if im forced to go to small claims.
Sounds like in the long run you might have even done this guy a favour!
Well every owner of every car he's sold under only the trading name could return the car on the basis of miss selling. They wouldn't get the full value (is it would have gathered miles) but would be untitled to a refund.
Awesome work
Tuesday has passed, heard anything back yet?
What came of this, out of interest? All sorted now?
Sorry, not been on stw for a while. Ive had zero responce from my last letter, so just need to wait out the chargeback process now.
I gave the bank a ring, turns out he has 60 day from the bank initiating the charge back (not 30 like I was originally told). Which puts it mid August for the all clear and another letter.
Hes not submitted any new evidence to the bank yet though, either he doesn't want to admit liability or he's just sitting it out (which admits liability by default).
Damn, was hoping for a Woo-hoo, I'm in the clear type reply.
I'm a bit lost, once the 60 day appeal limit has passed, what is the next letter you are going to write? At that point I think I'd just be going back to the dealership with the V5 and transferring ownership back to him.
edit - just read back, seems like you'll be going for out of pocket expenses. Fair play to you, do let us know the final outcome.
If I'm awarded the chargeback it's a letter to confirm where to send the v5 and spare key, as it's his property. My expenses at the mo are some postage, tax and insurance since March (around £60 a month and around 50 quid in postage). TBH if I get the chargeback I won't bother continuing to get expenses.
If I don't get awarded the chargeback, that's another matter and it'll be small claims + a 200quid survey on the car, + on the day expenses etc.
60 days has passed since the charge back was awarded. And I've not heard athing, Soooooo it should be over.
Im surprised I've not heard anything from either the bank or the law firm though. So I've phoned the bank, who weren't particularly helpful and said that if 60days is passed then it should be closed, however they don't have the case written as closed on the system......
Have you won your claim yet?
If you win the case and if they don't pay get the Sheriff to collect your due for you.
Get those Sheriff from the tv programme.
Pretty much Holmesy - I'm writing a letter to the bank to confirm it though as I went back through the paperwork last night and the bank letters are pretty clear on the ' temporary ' refund. The lady on the end of the phone yesterday said that it wasn't a closed case yet, which is contradictory to the 60 day waiting period they gave me.
final update (I hope).
I sent off the v5 and spare key to the dealer last week and I just had a phone call from him!
Turns out his bank refunded him last month, where as my bank have confirmed 3 times to me that his bank haven't tried to dispute the chargeback. So it seems that his bank couldn't be bothered to fight mine and gave him the cash back. So in the end I have my cash, he has his and the car will be scrapped.......
Phew! good that you got a decent result after all this time. Well done 🙂
Now to find a new car eh?!
I feel a bit miffed that he came out of this quids in too, but good news for you monkeyboy. What car are you going to get?
cant believe that the banks would come out of this as the losing party.......my money is on that this is not over yet......
@tthew the Wife is also miffed as he's now got cash and car! But TBH Im glad it's sorted. The 'youd have no chance if you'd taken me to court' attitude on the phone was more annoying for me as I had to bite my tongue to stop getting into another shouting match.
Regards next car, it'll prob have 7 seats but will be ALOT newer (we've plans for a private hire business to compliment our village shop). Not sure on car (nicer inside) vs crew cab van (better luggage space).