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That's quite an ask, 8 years GDP..
The study estimates that trillions of dollars are owed in reparations to countries affected by transatlantic slavery. The report, which was published by the University of the West Indies after a symposium held by the American Society of International Law, concludes that the UK alone is required to pay a sum of $24tn (£18.8tn) as reparations for transatlantic slavery in 14 countries. Of that sum, about $9.6tn is due to Jamaica. The report uses calculations made by the Brattle Group, which factors in the wealth and GDP amassed by countries that enslaved African people.
Bit more than the £100k Gladstone family were offering up - barely more than their ancestor received back in the day...
After slavery was abolished in 1833, John received the largest compensation payment made by the Slave Compensation Commission - about £93,000, the modern equivalent of about £10m.
Blind eye turned to modern slavery as well ? Madness. Do we take action against Italy for their Roman descendants, or the Scandinavians for Vikings. Must also count in the destruction the Christian Crusades caused in the Middle East.
Yeah, but he's being generous that we have 10-25y to repay it. Easy done...
Also - where does it end? War reparations in WW1 and WW2 were $320bn (Germany), but were massively written down and subsequently never paid. American Revolution deaths and industry nationalisation? There's a statute of limitation on most crimes, no?
Blind eye turned to modern slavery as well ? Madness. Do we take action against Italy for their Roman descendants, or the Scandinavians for Vikings. Must also count in the destruction the Christian Crusades caused in the Middle East.
Add it to the tab...
UK cannot ignore calls for slavery reparations, says leading UN judge
i think he'll find that in fact we can.
Put this on the list next to "Hand over Diego Garcia" I suppose
i think he’ll find that in fact we can.
And not only that, we should...
This is the problem with the hand-wringing left. They think the people of today should be punished for stuff they weren't even alive when it happened. But the left of that extreme persuasion, in their green-eyed envy, can't think straight.
They won't make the case for murder tho eh? Maybe we should be punishing people today for the murders of their ancestors (Charlie would be on the hook, for starters).
Another arsehole looking for their 15 minutes of fame.
This is the problem with the hand-wringing left. They think the people of today should be punished for stuff they weren’t even alive when it happened. But the left of that extreme persuasion, in their green-eyed envy, can’t think straight.
Hmm.
Quick question: how many commenting here are of West /Indian heritage?
Fro those asking 'where does it end'; the legacy of slavery and oppression of Black people still exists in our society, to a very large extent. Many people who enjoy extreme wealth, privilege and power in our society today, do so as a direct result of that slavery and oppression. For just one example (of countless cases); both former prime minister David Cameron and his wife are direct descendants of those who profited from slavery, and enjoy immense privilege today as a result. Many of those who influence, shape and govern your lives are such people. The entire modern British class system has its foundations in slavery and exploitation by violence. For an example of much more recent and direct beneficiary of such injustice; Margaret Hodge of the Labour party is the descendant of a family which made vast riches from the mining industry in South Africa. The legacy of slavery is evident not only in the names of those descendants of slaves, but in our public institutions; our universities, our banking system, and in the institutionalised racism inherent in our greater society. In 2023, we are still nowhere near an acceptable level of real equality, justice or even democracy. Poverty and deprivation in those former 'colonies' are the lasting, concrete legacy of slavery and exploitation. So, perhaps it 'ends' when those wrongs have been righted. Will that ever happen? I very much doubt it. Should it happen? 100% yes.
Another arsehole looking for their 15 minutes of fame.
Or perhaps simply looking for a better resolution than what is currently not happening?
So, perhaps it ‘ends’ when those wrongs have been righted.
For all history - back to amoebas attacking other amoebas in a primordial swamp? Should their descendants be held accountable?
There’s a statute of limitation on most crimes, no?
That's assuming you actualy did a crime personally, it sounds a bit silly but why stop at the vikings? apparently 1 in 200 people are descendants of Genghis Khan so a lot of people would have to dig deep for the compo claims.
Thats a very limited and specific posting history
For all history – back to amoebas attacking other amoebas in a primordial swamp? Should their descendants be held accountable?
Being deliberately obtuse simply to deflect attention away from the issue solves nothing. As I've said; the legacy of slavery still affects millions of people in the UK today. Black people still have far less opportunities available than White people. Black people are still far more likely to suffer injustice, violence, discrimination and deprivation than White people. Now, none of this may affect you, or others on this forum, but that doesn't mean those issues don't exist. Opening up a conversation about such is long overdue, regardless of how uncomfortable it might make some people feel.
All true, but if the government was to suddenly cough up a huge amount of cash, who do you think would feel the (negative) effects of that? It wouldn't be the rich folk still reaping the rewards of actions taken hundreds of years ago
apparently 1 in 200 people are descendants of Genghis Khan so a lot of people would have to dig deep for the compo claims
Always struck me as a curious historical figure, seems lionised in many accounts. But to me, seems like a complete barstad. Although hes not alone in that.
Being deliberately obtuse simply to deflect attention away from the issue solves nothing.
Well, not at all, if you are going to make a law or establish a precident, it has to be universal, so the Aomeba angle is perfectly valid. Where do you draw a line? 200 years ago, 500? a million?
Let's say 200 years. What about someone wronged 201 years ago? Tough luck?
UK today. Black people still have far less opportunities available than White people.
I agree, but that is a social /political issue.
This is the problem with the hand-wringing left. They think the people of today should be punished for stuff they weren’t even alive when it happened.
Hang on. These aren't punitive fines. It says 'reparations', which means paying to fix the damage that we caused. And we did cause a LOT, and it still isn't fixed. So...
This is the problem with the hand-wringing left. They think the people of today should be punished for stuff they weren’t even alive when it happened. But the left of that extreme persuasion, in their green-eyed envy, can’t think straight.
For all history – back to amoebas attacking other amoebas in a primordial swamp? Should their descendants be held accountable?
A simple way of viewing whether it's right or wrong to pay reparations would be to look whether we (as a modern country) benefit from being the criminal in the past. Would we be the 5th largest economy in the world if it wasn't for slavery? If not then why do 'we' who were just born lucky into a country that made a fortune off the back of the rest of the world deserve that position?
So a figure of 8 years GDP probably is accurate, it would cripple our economy back to a level that isn't disproportionate to our global position.
In the case of German war reparation's, everyone (in Europe anyway) came out of the wars with similarly broken economies, there were no winners.
Do I want it to happen though ....... naaaa... I'm alright Jack.
Hang on. These aren’t punitive fines. It says ‘reparations’, which means paying to fix the damage that we caused. And we did cause a LOT, and it still isn’t fixed. So…
Surely its worse than that, slavery was profited from, then followed up by colonialism
we did cause a LOT,
"we" is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. As "we" didn't all gain equally from the mistakes of the past then "we" shouldn't all have to make equal reparations.
Hang on. These aren’t punitive fines. It says ‘reparations’, which means paying to fix the damage that we caused. And we did cause a LOT, and it still isn’t fixed. So…
OK so what about Russia? China? The Middle east? Africa? attrocities have been going on since well, forever, and by all societies against pretty much all other societies at one time or another.
In order to be fair, where do we draw the line?
A) geographicaly
B) historicaly
In order to be fair?
Well, not at all, if you are going to make a law or establish a precident, it has to be universal, so the Aomeba angle is perfectly valid.
Nonsense.
I agree, but that is a social /political issue.
That has its origins in past events, such as slavery.
All true, but if the government was to suddenly cough up a huge amount of cash, who do you think would feel the (negative) effects of that? It wouldn’t be the rich folk still reaping the rewards of actions taken hundreds of years ago
A very good question. I think to take the demand for specific reparations as suggested, too literally, is to miss the point of opening up the conversation. I don't believe for a minute that Judge Robinson is actually demanding the UK has to pay such reparations, but by placing such a figure on the 'cost' to Black people of slavery, is a way of attempting to describe the magnitude of such atrocities committed. Only an idiot would truly believe that the UK is about to pay such vast sums out of public coffers. But if we open the conversation up more, then perhaps we can find ways in which the UK can actually start to help in directly beneficial ways; addressing the racism within our own society would be a start. Overhauling the education system so that children are taught a broader perspective on slavery would be good, as well as making changes to ensure a greater balance of representation at university level. Things that are well within our society's ability. And then perhaps we could move to examine the profits certain companies and organisations are still making today, and at ways to steer those profits towards benefiting the greater public good rather than further enriching an elite few. It's worth remembering that following the abolition of slavery in the UK, many slave 'owners' were paid vast sums in compensation, whilst those who were enslaved got nothing. All the while nothing is done, nothing is ever resolved.
So a figure of 8 years GDP probably is accurate, it would cripple our economy back to a level that isn’t disproportionate to our global position.
If any UK government tried it, Im almost certain we would end up with a genuinely extreme, probably fascist and deeply racist government in a very short amount of time. No one would win, least of all those with the genuine wrongs committed against them.
Well, not at all, if you are going to make a law or establish a precident, it has to be universal, so the Aomeba angle is perfectly valid. Where do you draw a line? 200 years ago, 500? a million?
It's not really though is it?
Who do you define as having benefitted from the rumble in the primordial soup?
Ditto the Romans, is the UK worse off for being a Roman colony? If anything I'd say the modern UK is probably a net beneficiary of that legacy even if at the time some Picts and Celts might have disagreed.
They think the people of today should be punished for stuff they weren’t even alive when it happened.
Think of it as compensation, not a fine.
If we took out the "national" angle, and it was companies being asked to pay the compensation despite a change of management, it wouldn't seem strange at all.
Given that oil rich Arab nations were just as involved, it may not be so bad.
I'm putting in a claim against the Italians, what did the Romans ever do for us?
If any UK government tried it, Im almost certain we would end up with a genuinely extreme, probably fascist and deeply racist government in a very short amount of time. No one would win, least of all those with the genuine wrongs committed against them.
Hence the un-quoted end of my post.
Doesn't make it any less 'fair' as a figure.
@mattyfez - why stop at national boundaries? What about compensation for the displaced folk of the Highland Clearances, those who suffered during the Irish potato famine etc?
And are we going to displace all the non-native Australians, Americans etc to restore those lands to the descendants of their original inhabitants?
We're going to need a bigger [s]boat[/s] spreadsheet.
If we took out the “national” angle, and it was companies being asked to pay the compensation despite a change of management, it wouldn’t seem strange at all
Im a bit ignorant here, were the British parts of the slave trade largely private or state activities?
As “we” didn’t all gain equally from the mistakes of the past then “we” shouldn’t all have to make equal reparations.
completely agree. it is probably easy enough to trace the people living today who are descended from slave traders and colonists. take their money.
it’s a bit like how do you return land to first nations people. not many people alive today are descended from people who stole any land. most people living in former british colonies aren’t even descended from them, but it would be easy to find out who are.
unfortunately, like the folk who profited from slavery, they still have a great influence with our leaders and influencers so nothing will be done about it. see also the state of the housing market, etc…
I see the point, but why single out the UK? The Spaniards, Dutch, French and Portugese have all been pretty naughty, and that's just some Europeans, off the top of my head.
Can you see the Chinese making 'reperations' for the conquest of Tibet?
It would need to be a global consensus, good luck with that.
Strong post, though, by the way. It's certainly sparked an interesting conversation.
Overhauling the education system so that children are taught a broader perspective on slavery would be good, as well as making changes to ensure a greater balance of representation at university level.
I wasn't taught any Welsh history - my history - when I was in school, in the 80s. My kids have barely been taught any either, other than a few key snippets. Our history, as taught to us, is the history of the English monarchy and ruling classes. I agree with you in general, but would suggest that we also start teaching the history of the actual people, the working classes of this country. But that would be dangerous, because that's a history of oppression and inequality and I'm sure that our betters don't want us to wake up to that.
Also I'm Welsh, so, given that in the late 13th century, King Edward I conquered Wales, claiming it as a territory of England, where's my dosh?
Everyone on the planet should have a DNA test so they can find out who they are and where they came from 🤔.
Only '£50' each at the moment on a popular historical data gathering website.
Then we can submit a claim to a share of the cash and possibly the option of a passport 🤔.
As I’ve said; the legacy of slavery still affects millions of people in the UK today
How will sending a made up amount of money to countries round the world who also had local beneficiaries from the trade actually help any of those who are suffering the legacy of slavery in the Uk? Are we going to ask the descendants of the African tribes who actually did the enslaving and sold thier own people into slavery to make a contribution to the bill?
One other point that doesn't seem to have been adressed, who actualy gets this compensation?
In the case of say, Jamaica, for example, would it go to the Jamaican government, or to individuals?
I know the UK government is pretty corrupt, but if the 'UK' gave trillions of £ to jamaica, what's to say the Jamican government wouldn't snaffle it all up, leaving Jamaican citizens exextly as they are now?
And also, would the United States also be equally liable for any reperation? Seems only fair they should be.
And also, would the United States also be equally liable for any reperation? Seems only fair they should be.
See my previous post. Once all the "immigrant" Americans have been deported to the lands of their forefathers, there will be nobody there who benefitted.
See my previous post. Once all the “immigrant” Americans have been deported to the lands of their forefathers, there will be nobody there who benefitted.
Were they all forcibly transported to the US?
I agree this is far more about opening a debate that needs to happen.
I'm all for a proper, grovelling apology from the British government to all those wronged by the appalling slave trade, and those still affected by the ongoing disadvantage it has created.
I'm not convinced that throwing money at it after nearly 200 years is a sensible option - it opens a whole international can of worms as to who owes who what and for when.
suggest that we also start teaching the history of the actual people, the working classes of this country. But that would be dangerous, because that’s a history of oppression and inequality and I’m sure that our betters don’t want us to wake up to that.
quite. the inclosure acts were essentially people in power taking away the only means common people had of providing for themselves, other than working for the people who had just made it illegal to continue living as they did. the creation of the working class.
anyway, slight derail. sorry.
I agree this is far more about opening a debate that needs to happen.
Id rather suspect its a debate thats been going on longer than ive been alive
quite. the inclosure acts were essentially people in power taking away the only means common people had of providing for themselves, other than working for the people who had just made it illegal to continue living as they did. the creation of the working class.
anyway, slight derail. sorry.
I don't think it's necessarily a derail, because all history is linked. Many of my ancestors moved to this area to work in heavy industry, from Ireland among other places. So, because of aggressive English policy in Ireland, my ancestors moved to find hazardous work in the pits and copperworks around here. Among the things that the copperworks produced were the copper ingots used in the slave trade. Were my ancestors complicit in the slave trade?
FFS
Apparently reparations have been paid
But to the former slave owners
As part of the compromise that helped to secure abolition, the British government agreed a generous compensation package of £20 million to slave-owners for the loss of their ‘property’. The Bank of England administered the payment of slavery compensation on behalf of the British government.
Of course every single person in the UK benefitt4ed from slavery - thats the basis of empire and our riches as a nation and we are still a very rich nation
reparations now? I would take some convincing that there is any reasonable way to work it out.
I have mixed feelings on this one.. apparently I’m somehow related to the French aristocracy that was chased out during the revolution… so I reckon I’m owed some cash on that score..
on the flip side my French ancestors all then buggered off to Mauritius where apparently they subsequently did a roaring business in the slave trade on sugar plantations…
So overall I reckon I’m net neutral when it comes to repatriations owed..
Being deliberately obtuse simply to deflect attention away from the issue solves nothing. As I’ve said; the legacy of slavery still affects millions of people in the UK today. Black people still have far less opportunities available than White people. Black people are still far more likely to suffer injustice, violence, discrimination and deprivation than White people. Now, none of this may affect you, or others on this forum, but that doesn’t mean those issues don’t exist. Opening up a conversation about such is long overdue, regardless of how uncomfortable it might make some people feel.
And being deliberately selective in your stats doesn't help your arguments. The most deprived regions of the UK are are regions with extremely low ethnic diversity. Once outliers are removed data normalised and clustered by class (of the UKs biggest problems) there's little in it between ethnic groups and Indians and ****stanis tend to outperform those with no ethnic bloodlines. Research suggests that opportunity and success are as much if not more to do with family and education than the system which support it. As for violence and injustice, the crime stats show that arrest rates for Black and Asian groups are higher, much higher for black, but charge and conviction are largely similar (within 5%) so does this show injustice or the correct level of arrests? I don't deny that issues exist, but using the big brush of race and historic slavery to paint the picture is obscuring the details and the details matter.
Who do we make out the cheque to?
Black people still have far less opportunities available than White people. Black people are still far more likely to suffer injustice, violence, discrimination and deprivation than White people. Now, none of this may affect you, or others on this forum, but that doesn’t mean those issues don’t exist.
so just to be clear, is the whole of the uk having to stump up the cash, or just the white folks? If the former, I’m not sure these disadvantaged minorities you allude to are going to benefit much from that..
Or are you proposing a tax specifically on white folks?
Can we also include serfdom in this reparations claim?
the inclosure acts were essentially people in power taking away the only means common people had of providing for themselves,
Thats one way of getting tried of the rf. They should pay reparations to the people of this country for all the damage the acts of enclosure did and let’s not get started on the role of the church in all of this
I think the slave owning families that received compo should have a special tax put on them for the next 200 years.
Also all land nicked during the enclosure act should be returned to the public.
We probably should be paying reparations to Iraq, Iran, Kenya, Palestine etc for stuff done in the last 100 years
Its never ending really and largely not possible. however, it would be nice if we learned from our mistakes and treated people decently now. Just look at how we treat asylum seekers, or the Windrush generation.
what about the romans, gengis khan, arab slavers yadda yadda every time this one comes up though I've got to confess that amoebae are a new one...
Harewood House isn't far from where I live, built for the Lascelles family, now Earl of Harewood, paid for by funds from their barbadian estates, which they owned into the 70s. The other people round here with the surname Harewood are more likely to live in the Harehills and Chapeltown areas of Leeds, though also tracing their ancestry back to Barbados. Their houses tend to be smaller*. Point is that this really wasn't that long ago and it is felt personally by many people whose families were at the receiving end of slavery. I donno, have a look at comments under:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/leeds/content/articles/2007/02/22/abolition_harewood_house_feature.shtml
...people tracing their ancesors etc. Does this mean that my wife's family from working class liverpool owe reparations because the shipping routes etc that powered their jobs and general economic prosperity that built the city were part slavery driven? I mean no. Anyway, this probably counts as handwringing, but I don't think that handwashing and waving this away is a good look either when it is real.
*edit in case not obvious: slaves frequently took the family name of their owners. Grotesque sentence to type.
So much ****tery whataboutery in this thread. Can't be bothered. But this sensible question was asked of me...
Im a bit ignorant here, were the British parts of the slave trade largely private or state activities?
Protected and legislated by the Crown and UK parliament, operated by private individuals and companies. Profits weren't all kept by those individuals, they funded the Royal Family and the UK Treasury... giving us a hell of a lot of the buildings and infrastructure we still use and see around us today. See also the "philanthropy" of these slavers in the UK (there's often talk of the "good things" done by them, we're still benefiting from a lot of that vanity spending today).
apparently I’m somehow related to the French aristocracy that was chased out during the revolution…
we need to chase ours out. They can leave their money.
And being deliberately selective in your stats doesn’t help your arguments
I haven't been. Yet you seem to have. Facts are that Black people are more likely to be victims of crime, more likely to suffer deprivation, less likely to go to university, earn less on average, than White people in the UK.
I don’t deny that issues exist, but using the big brush of race and historic slavery to paint the picture is obscuring the details and the details matter.
No details have been obscured.
so just to be clear, is the whole of the uk having to stump up the cash, or just the white folks? If the former, I’m not sure these disadvantaged minorities you allude to are going to benefit much from that..
Or are you proposing a tax specifically on white folks?
What do you think?
What about
There's a lot of whatabouttery on this thread. What about just having a conversation about the legacy of slavery in the UK? Is that so hard?
I notice my initial question has still gone unanswered. I think this speaks volumes.
Funded the war against France
giving us a hell of a lot of the buildings and transport infrastructure we still use and see around us today.
Its questionable how much went in the general pool as opposed to helping fill the pockets of Drax and friends.
Especially if the cost of the West Africa squadron is included.
As always with the tories and their predecessors it was private profit and socialising losses.
Protected and legislated by the Crown and UK parliament, operated by private individuals and companies. Profits weren’t all kept by those individuals, they funded the Royal Family and the UK Treasury… giving us a hell of a lot of the buildings and transport we still use and see around us today. See also the “philanthropy” of these slavers in the UK.
As someone with foreign heritage and ancestry, I do feel somewhat conflicted when visiting institutions such as the Tate Gallery. I think people should have an awareness of what funded those wonderful buildings that line the streets of cities such as London, Liverpool, Bristol, Glasgow etc. But it becomes easier to separate the buildings from their founders, as bricks and mortar can easily outlive ideologies. I think it's important to understand and recognise the part that the 'colonies' had to play in the development of our railways, for example. There is a woeful lack of awareness of the truth behind Britain's rise as a global superpower, and the truth needs to be told. Much of the uncomfortable facts of our history have been swept under the carpet. It's time to lift that carpet and have a good look at the truth hiding beneath.
I’m all for a proper, grovelling apology from the British government to all those wronged by the appalling slave trade, and those still affected by the ongoing disadvantage it has created.
Our prime minister refused to do just this, as recently as April. Perhaps the fact that many in his party are the beneficiaries of the legacy of slavery, is what motivated him to take such a stance.
So much whataboutery in this thread.
Almost as arbitrary as deciding that of all the historical wrong doings which have occurred, slavery suddenly pops to the top of the list and requires reparations...
Our prime minister refused to do just this, as recently as April.
Probably, because if he did it would give legitimacy to claims for reparations etc. Huge can of worms accepting blame for our forefather's actions.
The simplest thing would be to send the bill to anyone with a hereditary title more than 75 years old as this will most accurately reflect those that benefited directly from slavery and the empire (We could also include everyone with any sort of peerage based on politics, political contributions, or general toadyism but that would just be fun).
Almost as arbitrary as deciding that of all the historical wrong doings which have occurred, slavery suddenly pops to the top of the list and requires reparations…
No, you can discuss the effects of the slave trade, who still feels the effects of it (positively and negatively) and if any of that should be addressed and if so how and by whom... without going down the "all lives matter" conversational dead end.
What about just having a conversation about the legacy of slavery in the UK? Is that so hard?
it’s not. What do you want to discuss about it? That it was abhorrent and a stain on humanity? I think most folks agreed it was. Does the legacy of slavery remain today? Yep, in the same way as all history (much of it involving the repression of various groups of folks) has shaped much of society as we know it today
actions taken 200/300/400 years ago or longer shape the world we live in. It’s a fact of life. I’m not going to apologize for what my backward thinking ancestors did many centuries ago, nor am I prepared to pay compensation for their actions
we should however all learn from mistakes of the past to ensure they aren’t repeated
Its never ending really and largely not possible. however, it would be nice if we learned from our mistakes and treated people decently now. Just look at how we treat asylum seekers, or the Windrush generation.
Is the sensible and pragmatic answer.
it’s not. What do you want to discuss about it?
How to try to reverse at least some of the damage done? How to address the issues stemming form that legacy, in order to help create a fairer, more just society? How to move forward whilst still acknowledging that evil was done?
actions taken 200/300/400 years ago or longer shape the world we live in. It’s a fact of life. I’m not going to apologize for what my backward thinking ancestors did many centuries ago, nor am I prepared to pay compensation for their actions
That's ok, because nobody's actually asking you. It's not actually about you. It's about the UK as a society. And as a society, one that hopefully aims towards a less divided and unjust world, we should be looking to make things right. How that takes form, is what this conversation is all about.
No, you can discuss the effects of the slave trade, who still feels the effects of it (positively and negatively) and if any of that should be addressed and if so how and by whom… without going down the “all lives matter” conversational dead end.
Quite.
it is probably easy enough to trace the people living today who are descended from slave traders and colonists. take their money.
Can you prove it's not you or I?
My family's from Lancaster and Morecambe, the odd's of the late Great, Great, Great, Great, Mr Thisisnotaspoon(s) not in some way benefiting from slavery is minute. They might not have been Cecil Rhodes, but some of them will have worked in a supply chain around the ports which boomed from the slave trade.
Like the Gengis Kahn comment on the first page, go back 150 years+ and we're probably all related to someone who worked in middle management at the East India Company. And if not, then the money flowing out from them would have drive a huge part of the economy that they worked in.
[edit, johnx2 made exactly the same point while I was typing]
Probably, because if he did it would give legitimacy to claims for reparations etc. Huge can of worms accepting blame for our forefather’s actions.
How did you manage that leap? Acknowledging that evil was done, and making a symbolic gesture, is a very long way from actually paying trillions of pounds to anyone.
That’s ok, because nobody’s actually asking you. It’s not actually about you. It’s about the UK as a society
I am part of uk society though, so it is about me, and my attitudes. And everyone else in the uk, regardless of race, as like it or not, every single person in the uk has benefited from slavery to some degree. Including you.
What do you think a symbolic apology from our overlords will actually achieve? Do you think the king making a statement on how sorry we are will change attitudes to race in this country? I don’t think it would change a thing personally
Black people are more likely to be victims of crime, more likely to suffer deprivation, less likely to go to university, earn less on average, than White people in the UK
And that's because of ancient slavery is it?
You are attempting to attribute causality on some incredibly shaky ground there.
Lots of immigrant families from the 1950's/60's from all over the world went on to do very well thankyouverymuch. Many multimillionaires. How come slavery never held them back?
Your argument doesn't even stack up when you look within our own country. The poorest performing and most downtrodden demographic in this country is an underclass of white kids stuck in generational poverty. And these kids are growing up in a Britain that tells them that they have to feel guilty because they're benefitting from Transatlantic Chattel Slavery that was outlawed - under pressure from the (overwhelmingly white) people of England and very popular abolitionist movements both in Europe and across the pond - 200 years before their parents were born?
You going to give the descendents of abolitionists a pass from the "reparations"? What about the bazillion other ancient atrocities that nobody alive today is culpable for? Should we start exploring those rabbit holes too?
You, and people who think like you, can jog on tbh.
How to try to reverse at least some of the damage done? How to address the issues stemming form that legacy, in order to help create a fairer, more just society? How to move forward whilst still acknowledging that evil was done?
There’s a lot more at play there than just the history of slavery. Creating a fairer and more just society would mean stepping away from capitalism and rampant consumption. We’ve already been down that rabbit hole on the climate change thread.
The history of any nation is littered with horrendous acts. I don’t know of many people who don’t acknowledge our shitty past as a nation. It’s awful and makes me feel ashamed. Paying out money won’t do anything to repair the damage done. What would you suggest we do?
From the article:
"The study estimates that trillions of dollars are owed in reparations to countries affected by transatlantic slavery. The report, which was published by the University of the West Indies after a symposium held by the American Society of International Law, concludes that the UK alone is required to pay a sum of $24tn (£18.8tn) as reparations for transatlantic slavery in 14 countries".
Note "reparations for transatlantic slavery IN 14 countries".
Doesn't say who to in those countries. As I asked before who do we make out the cheque to?
I come from Ayr, mostly famous for Rabbie Burns who very nearly went to work as an estate manager in the West Indies but decided to stay at home and write A man's A man instead.
A local historian wrote a series of very thorough articles about Ayr and slavery, many local worthies who made their fortunes from slavery are commemorated with streets named after them,statues etc . Some were kind of peripheral to the slave trade, selling supplies to estates in the West Indies or America, some were right in there abducting people, transporting them thousands of miles and murdering anyone who fought back. Certainly made me look at the town with different eyes
That’s ok, because nobody’s actually asking you. It’s not actually about you. It’s about the UK as a society. And as a society, one that hopefully aims towards a less divided and unjust world, we should be looking to make things right. How that takes form, is what this conversation is all about.
Do you honestly believe that forcing the UK to pay reparations will lead to a fairer, more just society? It'll do for racial issues in the UK what Brexit did for regional equality - you'll set it back by a generation or two.
The fact is, it is about him, us, all of us, as that's where reparations will come from and who they'll damage the most. It won't benefit racial equality in the UK - at all. It may lead, perhaps, to better standards of living elsewhere and maybe that's appropriate, but it will do nothing at all for race in the UK except for to make some momentarily feel better, just like Brexit. And just like Brexit, the bill comes due.
I haven’t been. Yet you seem to have. Facts are that Black people are more likely to be victims of crime, more likely to suffer deprivation, less likely to go to university, earn less on average, than White people in the UK.
Now that's rubbish - I know these figures very well - 6% of University places were filled by black UK students in 2022 - they represent 4% of the UK population. 72% of University places were filled by white UK students, they represent 75% of the population. Which group is underrepresented? Blakc people do earn less on average, but that average is skewed by historic trends. Look at recent graduates up to 10 years out of uni, the difference in average salary shrinks from 16% to 1%.. Asians earn on average 46% more...what should we do about that?
What you're making is noise rather than trying to fix the real issues about racial bias which still exist. dredging up slavery and making people pay for it won't fix that in any way.
A local historian wrote a series of very thorough articles about Ayr and slavery, many local worthies who made their fortunes from slavery are commemorated with streets named after them,statues etc . Some were kind of peripheral to the slave trade, selling supplies to estates in the West Indies or America, some were right in there abducting people, transporting them thousands of miles and murdering anyone who fought back. Certainly made me look at the town with different eyes
Seems to me to be an advert for the better teaching of history in schools. The fact is things were pretty horrible in the past (by our standards) that's what progress is all about. Take this for example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimney_sweep
Sounds fun eh? & it wasn't until the later part of the 19th Century that anything was done about it. If you are going to judge slavery etc by the standards of the 21st century, then you have to judge everything by the same standards & you'll inevitably discover that society wasn't very nice. But you also have to think about how the present day will look in 200 years time, (assuming that civilisation still exists), I can pretty much guarantee that to them we will apear barbaric, backward and a legacy of our behaviour will still be affecting those people in the future. So no matter how 'good' you think you are, to our descendents you won't be.
You simply cannot go back and try to right the wrongs that were committed several hundred years ago. The reality is too complex. The way to deal with racism is to dealwith it as it manifests itself now.
But society moves on
Pretty sure my ancestors weren't slaves but as we're descended from normal working people they might as well have been, no security, life and death at the whim of landowners and the aristocracy, limited to no ability to change jobs, indentured apprentices, no real rights, no equality, no vote etc. etc.
A small number of people made a lot of money from the servitude of my ancestors.
Who do I submit my claim to.
Just what the World needs, more things to argue about, this whole thing is just pie in the sky, and only aimed at provoking right vs left again, no doubt we'll see Farage on the TV soon if this thing gets traction.