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Nah.
They were bearing away all the time (as shown by their boat speed dropping all the time, the overhead video and the fact that Bruno was calling "down down" the whole time) to try and force the penalty - you can't do that.... If you change course you have to give the other boat room.
16.1.
When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other boat room to keep clear.
The judge boat was right behind LR the whole time and saw what they were doing - they made their decision in approx 2 seconds.... It was clear to them. Ken Read never thought it was a penalty either.
From Ineos' point of view they would have known they would cross the whole time - it's not difficult to tell.
Close but no cigar.
I agree with that literal interpretation Sharkbait if it was a last second manouver, but it doesn't quite cover pushing the boat down in a slow arc.
I would have argued that GB had time to react to the manouver as it was a very slow deliberate one. Not the last second course alteration the rules are imagining.
That's exactly the point... it was a series of last second manoeuvres.
They changed course continuously.... Each time they changed course they needed to give ineos space.
If they'd done one bigger course change earlier on and stuck with that they may have had an arguement - but they didn't they just kept bearing away to try and get in the right place.
The "Hollywood" thing is the dramatic heading up at the end to make it look like they averted a disaster (of their own making).
The reality is that Ineos knew they'd cross (although it was close) the whole time.
Not sure if this is covered previously in the thread. I have a question re cup format. So whoever wins the Prada Cup goes through to the final head to head series with NZ (the cup holders). Whoever goes through will have loads of up to date race prep, and boat prep, they will be race proven and fired right up. Does that not give the challenger, hopefully Britannia 🇬🇧 a good advantage? TIA😀 I know team NZ won’t have been sitting at the clubhouse drinking G&T but they aren’t racing.
It's team NZ's local waters. Gives them a bit more advantage.
Yep, that’s a good point, they’ve been up and down that stretch a bit in the last few years I would guess.
Whoever goes through will have loads of up to date race prep, and boat prep, they will be race proven and fired right up
The same could be true of the Prada Cup semi-final; whoever wins that will be in the same position re the final.
It’s team NZ’s local waters.
There was quite a row about using courses B & C, the ones closest to the harbour. If I remember right, NZ wanted them used just for the Cup, so that the Challenger wouldn't be familiar with them. Luna Rossa got a judgement that the same courses had to be used for Prada Cup and America's Cup, and were criticised because it was said that it would mean the further away courses would get used and it would be worse for spectators. Not sure how it was resolved, as they've been using them.
NZ decided the rules and had a big head start on the technology and development.
They're racing in their back yard.
They have also raced against the other boats (although they'd have learnt **** all from racing ineos before Xmas) and can see all the speed, vmg and wind data from the challenger races.
They've got the upper hand.
Racing other boats is good but every day you're out racing is a day lost when it comes to boat development.
Cheers, thanks for the background info.
The judge boat was right behind LR the whole time and saw what they were doing
There isn't a judge boat..the judges do it all on land looking at all the feeds. They'd have seen the overhead shot (and LR changing course beforehand) and it was a no-brainer
All the 'Expert" chat on tv commentary was that having 2 weeks of boat development was much better than 2 weeks of racing. Whilst the 3 challengers are racing, ETNZ have been quietly developing, practicing and strategising.
Having just listened to the on-board feeds from the last race it definitely seems there is a language issue on LR. When it all got crazy busy there was confusion with misunderstanding the accented English of the Italian crew members. There were a couple of times in the race the foils were late going down so I wonder if this is causing issues?
Does that not give the challenger, hopefully Britannia 🇬🇧 a good advantage?
Looking at the results from the last dozen or so events (since Australia won it back in the 80s), it's been fairly evenly split between the defenders winning it and the challengers taking it off them. There used to be multiple American clubs challenging to be the defenders, but NZ changed that and focused on a single defence campaign. Mathematically, you would expect a competitive challenger series with multiple teams to be favoured because you are choosing the fastest boat/best crew from several, whereas the defenders really need to get everything perfect with one boat. However, the defenders have the opportunity to see what the challengers are doing and adjust accordingly. The defenders have two boats, so they can compare boat speed in different conditions in testing, whereas the challengers have to show their real boat speed because they are racing competitively.
Ineos seem to be have a very small advantage over the other defenders, but it's so close that a single mistake or gear breakage would be enough to make the difference. If Ineos have a 60% chance of winning the challengers' final, the other two have a 40% chance between them. Then, if the challenging team have a modest advantage over the defenders, there's still maybe a 35% chance of NZ retaining the cup because of local knowledge, gear breakages, etc. That would still only give Ineos a 45% chance of winning if their boat is quite a bit better than the others, with the other two challengers a 20% chance between them. Those are just wild guesses, but the point is that having a small speed advantage still doesn't make you strong favourites when there are multiple competitors and lots of ways to get unlucky.
Not just about speed though. It looks pretty clear that the sailing "talent" is being utilised better than LR and AM - or there's simply more of it!
Don't underestimate the cunningham issue yesterday...I believe it had a big factor in poorer downwind performance coMPared to the last RR.
So many factors. It will be difficult to beat NZ.
I'd be surprised if it isn't ineos who are up against them though.
And if it is GB, I think you'd struggle to think of 2 better people to have in charge than Ben Ainslie and Giles Scott
Having just listened to the on-board feeds from the last race it definitely seems there is a language issue on LR.
The American's also have communication issues it seems as well - listen in to a few of their last races.
I do think Ben and Giles are a masterclass in teamwork and communication. The whole boat are so clean with their communications and you can tell from some of the racing decisions that they both totally trust each other's judgements. For example 'that' cross with the Italians, it was Gile's calling the 'we are OK' - and Ben just steered it out.
I wonder if the cunningham was part of the story in the final port/starboard crossing. From the stats on the video, Ineos were 80-90m ahead at the previous gybe, and holding that, so would be expected to cross well clear. Then LR started bearing away, their VMG went up and Ineos's lead started dropping - they may have known that they couldn't afford to bear away because of the cunningham, which LR knew they had a problem with. The lead at the crossing was 28m, which I think is good evidence that they weren't (quite) on a collision course - still 5m away from being overlapped.
On that last cross, both teams called a power mode, which commentators said was less effective on Rita due to the Cunningham issue.
I wonder if the cunningham was part of the story in the final port/starboard crossing. From the stats on the video, Ineos were 80-90m ahead at the previous gybe, and holding that, so would be expected to cross well clear.
Absolutely - I believe that a 100% fit Ineos would have pulled away on all the downwind legs (assuming they went the right way) as per the previous race. GS said on a Team Ineos video after the race that that's what they would have normally expected.
Their racing rules advisor (who was conducting the interview) dismissed the subject of the final pass pretty quickly saying that, although close, there wasn't ever a case for a penalty.
Then LR started bearing away, their VMG went up
Only for a few seconds as their speed was dropping as they bore away, so their VMG would have very quickly dropped accordingly.
On that last cross, both teams called a power mode, which commentators said was less effective on Rita due to the Cunningham issue.
As their cunningham was nailed on at about 70% the main was flatter than it would have normally been so they had to sail high to match the foil shape of the sail - this would have given them a lower VMG.
I would expect that a working cunningham ram would have been eased to give a fuller main and more power allowing them to sail lower faster (and therefore further ahead of LR).
So what is a power mode? It's not like F1 where they have stored energy they can apply, all they have is the sails, and they will be going as fast as possible all the time. Unless there a risk balance, ie, absolute max speed involves a risk of losing control.
See my last paragraph.
More power doesn't necessarily mean faster - but it does mean more power with which to sail lower (thus pointing closer to the mark which = less distance to sail/better VMG).
But if you sail too low then your speed drops too much and your VMG suffers.
Downwind performance is a balance between speed and angle to the mark. I race in a mixed dinghy class where there are asymmetric boats that go much faster than my Finn - but they have to sail big angles downwind to get that speed while the Finn can almost be pointed at the mark thus sailing less distance.
If the fast boats don't get their angles right then they effectively lose time.
Not this...
Unless there a risk balance, ie, absolute max speed involves a risk of losing control.
Edit:
Below is an example of a set of polars - which is a diagramatic view of a hulls' theoretical speed at all wind angles and wind speeds. When keelboat racing we work with these to check that we're basically doing stuff right - amazingly there's many occasions when we're actually going too fast, which means that we should be heading further downwind (if going downwind) to improve our VMG.
Thanks, sharkbait, I hadn't seen your post when I posted. I've got it now - they would normally sail whatever angle gave the best VMG, but if they had to bear away for tactical reasons, they would power up the rig. Power is normally adjusted to give max forward speed and minimal drag while keeping the boat flat. Because of their speed, the apparent wind drops significantly when they bear away, so power drops with it, making adjusting the sail shape for downwind much more important than in a displacement boat.
Pretty much - downwind is a balancing act between boat speed and angle to the mark.
Sail shape is very important for ANY boat though!!
Although the AC75's generally don't have to take into account things like sea state (i.e. deeper foil profile to generate more power to get through bigger/choppier waves when going upwind but flatter profile to give better pointing/higher speed in flat water)
Patriot is back on the water 👍
That's an impressive turn around...
That’s an impressive turn around…
we see what you did there !
You’d have to imagine it will take a few days to get it finely tuned and at full whack. Will it be too late? I haven’t seen predicted conditions for Friday yet.
loving the sticky plaster on her damaged bit. 
Will it be too late?
They've got a big task ahead thats for sure..... I'm doubtful - they weren't that good before the crash.
Wind speed picking up throughout the semis. AM struggled in the light air, so it could all be over before they get their favoured conditions.
That's a nice touch.
we see what you did there !
I like to think I'm Anakin to Perchy the Jedi...
They've a really uphill task ahead. They will have a boat that's less than perfect, they were struggling at times and communication was poor before this breakage. And thier confidence must have taken a knock.
Compare them to NZ and UK who are floating higher on confidence, have continued to improve the boats and been on the water every day since.
I think the final will be NZ vs GB, and I'm not going to call it between them.
It’s interesting that each team only has one boat and no racing practice between the teams is allowed. I ETNZ aren’t destroying their opposition with speed then they will struggle. All 3 challenger skippers have a better match racing pedigree.
I suspect ETNZ are somewhat less confident than they were just before Xmas.
They've not done much sailing alongside ineos (if it is them that gets through) and one of those encounters ended in their capsize.
That's before we start discussing the (I think we can say) pretty immense talent of GS and BA.
I bet the Americans thought that their place against ETNZ was nailed on before Xmas.
Just shows huh!
Until the challenger races ETNZ, we really have no idea what they've done since the Xmas Cup.
Whilst Ineos are favourites, its still wide open and weather dependant who nails down the spot. Its such a shame there aren't more teams in the Prada Cup.
Whilst Ineos are favourites
I'm not so sure.
NZ are good, determined and on home turf.
They have different control systems to the others - I was watching a video suggesting the helm also trims main, as you would in a dinghy. All others split controls like you would in a keelboat. The suggestion is that NZ can react more quickly - and that they are still sandbagging some...
Does that include the capsize?!
I think the time for sandbagging is well past TBH as there's nothing to be gained.
its still wide open and weather dependant who nails down the spot
I'm not so sure. Ineos kicked everyone's ass in 12-13 knots, beat both in <10 knots and beat LR while rocking a disabled cunningham in 18-19 knots!
They currently look like a pretty complete package.
....and the only two points LR has won have been when the other boat didn't finish!
Looking forward to the races when I wake up tomorrow. If AM don’t win both races tomorrow I think they are toast as the winds are going to get lighter.
Seems to be all over for AM.
They are wrestling with that thing. I agree it's hard to see them come back now.
In other rumors, NZ seem to have some 'secret new thing' going on, though have reportedly had a couple of big moments going on too. Rumors of extra booms / twin booms / reversible battens in the mainsail on SailingAnarchy.
Edit: and Skinner foils with some curvature.
However one of the YouTube videos was claiming a noticeable step up in speed at times.
This may explain USA control issues.
See 1:26:08 - foil arm bouncing around in the water under load. Something's flexing or moving inside that boat.
Yeah - I noticed that foil movement. I wasn’t sure if it was intentional or not.
AM looked to be using a smaller jib than LR in the first race, same size in the second. AM were not pointing as high on the beats, but I couldn't tell whether that was in the rig or the foil slipping and making leeway.
The foil arm bouncing could be interesting, I guess it a could be mechanical or hydraulic cause. Foil arms being a supplied part, I don't know what the rules say if there's an issue - but probably drowning the system makes it AM's problem.
It seems like Bruni is taking control from Spithill today? His has been the voice leading everything.
Foil arms being a supplied part, I don’t know what the rules say if there’s an issue – but probably drowning the system makes it AM’s problem
Yeah the foil arms and canting system are a one design system supplied to all the teams - very doubtful its's movement in the arm as it would be happening on the other boats also.
I think AM had a new system installed after the crash so maybe it's not set up fully although I'm finding that hard to believe.
AM were not pointing as high on the beats
I suspect that their 'batsail' might be a heap of crap and may never see the light of day again. Ken Read will be loving that!!
AM will be out tomorrow at this rate which is a bit of a shame TBH although I never liked the idea of them being favourites to meet ETNZ.
They've got rig problems, definite control issues, poor tactics and a lack of confidence - not a good mix.
A lot of the Americans on Sailing Anarchy are in denial and still waiting for the big comeback.
Edit: They've got massive rudder issues - there's vibration on the wheel that no-one else has and it simply loses grip at the higher speeds. And I think they can't change it!
The commentary is embarrassing as everyone seems to be making excuses for AM. They just didn’t turn up to the races today. Problems or not that was embarrassing.
Well the American team have a boat that's literally trying to throw them off - I think they're scared of it in a breeze. But it was embarrasing for USA USA.
I noticed the 'bouncing' foil arm on AM too. I can't believe it has some bounce by design, but it's odd that it was so noticeable today and I haven't seen it on any of the other boats.
I'm going for 4-0 to Italy - all wrapped up tomorrow and no racing on Sunday (again). And the US go home without winning a race after being the favourites for the Prada Cup!
But... we've seen comebacks before!
Not sure Ben is available for hire this time though....
Spotted the AM foils bouncing too, I'm sure they will bounce a bit as there's a limit to how stiff you can make them. The outboard wing seemed to be piercing the surface a lot, I guess that's going to make some significant changes in loading as you make and break water flow.
My other though was air in the hydraulic actuator's, if they haven't bled the system properly that would make them bounce.
That Batwing main apart from looking ugly, didn't seem to be working that well.
LR was looking nicely balanced.
The outboard wing seemed to be piercing the surface a lot,
NZ's new foils are used this way - basically tip out the water.
My other though was air in the hydraulic actuator’s, if they haven’t bled the system properly that would make them bounce.
That's what I thought but then decided that a multi-million £ campaign would probably have remembered to bleed the system!
It "may" be planned.... A form of suspension to keep loads stable.
🤷🏻♂️
Was it mentioned in the commentary?
Nope
Ventilating foils are not a good thing to have. Surface piercing foils have a long history of problems, I'm sure they've done their work however.
I didn't notice the main foil wobble until it was pointed out. The vibration from the rudder was very noticible at the wheel though.
Interesting that the experts on the commentary team didn't see any it.
All over for AM.
Oh dear.
That's a shame - I was hoping they'd get at least one win in.
How the mighty are fallen.
So did it look like they simply got the design wrong?
I never liked the look of the boat and they def had a control issue.
Having a technician that had to grind is bonkers as well.
What a shame.
I'm sure there will be much debate and criticism over the next few weeks.
So did it look like they simply got the design wrong?
They've been very fast at times. I think the main problem was that the boat was still broken in some parts.
Having a technician that had to grind is bonkers as well.
True - even if you meant tactician.
I did obvs!!
They’ve been very fast at times.
Yes but it's all relative and hard to tell if it's "real" unless it's boat on boat.
Which is why this is complete rubbish:
However one of the YouTube videos was claiming a noticeable step up in speed at times.
The only people who know are those looking at the numbers back at the base.
Ventilating foils are not a good thing to have. Surface piercing foils have a long history of problems, I’m sure they’ve done their work however.
I seem to recall that Sailrocket 2, world speed record holder, had to re-design its foils to deliberately cavitate (wedge-section with sharp leading edges or something like that) in order to go above ~50kts, but their blog isn't responding. A bit like the way surface-piercing props are designed (or maybe not). And those foils were what I think you mean by "surface piercing". With their extra weight and size, maybe these things are hitting that zone at lower speeds - any hydrodynamicists(?) on here?
So Luna Rossa leaves a trail of buttonholes on the water, looks like they are created by the rudder. They are very regular, what is causing them?
There isn’t a judge boat..the judges do it all on land looking at all the feeds.
Just sayin
So Luna Rossa leaves a trail of buttonholes on the water, looks like they are created by the rudder. They are very regular, what is causing them?
Umm..... Computer graphics!!
😬😂
Leaving a trail of giant M%Ms to piss off the Yanks.
That Cross
I love some of the comments on that clip. The umpires made an on the water call, with all of their data input and experience and knowledge, (correctly in my eyes), then Ken and Nathan showed why in such detail, and others have also explained the rules, there are armchair experts who think that the combined knowledge and judgement of all of these actual experts is still wrong...lol
Interesting in the difference between the skill set of the pros and the non stop gobby shoutings of the commentary team who say nothing more obvious than "Look Ineos has tacked" which we can see and hear the crew discussing on the audio feed just like the bloody commentary team who only seem to have the one job of keeping talking.
idiots.
Interesting in the difference between the skill set of the pros and the non stop gobby shoutings of the commentary team
Can you clarify who these people are?
Are you saying that KR and NO are the latter?!
Pretty sure eddiebaby meant the
non stop gobby shoutings
were coming from the commentators talking all over the action on the live streams who don’t have the benefit of hindsight and are filling airtime (and being largely rubbish IMO)
And the
pros
being Kenny & Nathan in the linked YouTube clip.
Yes. The guys I. The linked clip seem great. The live tv feed guys sound like they’d be just as happy with golf it NASCAR.
It's the same guys doing the race commentary on YouTube.
I've not seen any other feeds though.
It’s the same guys doing the race commentary on YouTube.
I’ve not seen any other feeds though.
I’m amazed by that. All I hear in the race is blather with no insight, just the obvious.
Do we go into the finals carrying the warning over rule infringement (hole in foot of main)?
Yes we do.
I thought that was resolved - with the main now modified & legal, and the result from earlier race was ok too (and not subject to change) because they’d passed measuring that day, even though non-compliant.
nope, another rule infringement could lead to a DSQ from one race. crazy that a boat protesting is able to overrule the measurement committee and lead directly to a potential penalty. Fair enough to protest, rule change/clarification, and everyone needs to then comply or be imposed a penalty.
Yes, the Italians have behaved like litigious ****@s over this whole issue.
Yes, the Italians have behaved like litigious ****@s over this whole issue.
and over the running backstays rule (they don't think they need them, everyone else does). they tried to claim that they could have them attached to the mast and rolled up in the sail, and that would be fine. they lost