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That Luna Rossa Race felt like a proper match race. If Luna had won the start and controlled the course, outcome may have been different .
Hmm . Nz will be interesting match up.,
the fact that they were using a smaller jib than either of the other boats – this means they’ve got more power to come when they need it.
or could it be they had to use a smaller jib cos they would be "overpowered" by a bigger one and less in control? Obviously I know very little* about sailing a 75ft foiling monohull 🙂
* nothing
Nz will be interesting match up
that's a long way off
The smaller jib thing, everything is a trade off, bigger sails is more power but more drag so maybe slower overall. So they test and test and for each windspeed they will have a preferred option. So maybe ours in that windspeed is less sail area for faster boat speed/vmg. These boats are about as complex as we know how to make a boat, no longer a waterline length wins argument. Hopefully many more days like that however...
How are people watching it?
Youtube
So maybe ours in that windspeed is less sail area for faster boat speed/vmg.
Absolutely - but the having low drag and the best VMG is pointless if you can't get out of the water.
The smaller jib thing, everything is a trade off, bigger sails is more power but more drag so maybe slower overall. So they test and test and for each windspeed they will have a preferred option. So maybe ours in that windspeed is less sail area for faster boat speed/vmg. These boats are about as complex as we know how to make a boat, no longer a waterline length wins argument. Hopefully many more days like that however…
Interesting thing with the F1 connection. The way they work now is they gather data in Friday practice sessions, send that data back to HQ and run simulators overnight to decide on car setup, tyre strategies, etc. They have to deal with problems like tyres that are too fragile to last for even a single flat out lap, so they have to model how hard to push through different sections of their qualifying laps, plus predicting track temperatures. The Friday practice times are a pretty poor guide to Saturday qualifying and Sunday race pace.
With AC boats, being able to model ideal boat setup for different weather conditions would be analogous. How you go in practice races doesn't matter, all you're doing is gathering data for when it matters. It could be that the results were just getting lucky with conditions that suited the boat, but it's very reminiscent of Lewis Hamilton often looking off the pace on Friday, but nailing it when it counts. I guess we'll know for sure in a few weeks.
That was tense! 2 minutes before out of time. Still fast in light winds!
Wahoo. That'll do.
So they test and test and for each windspeed they will have a preferred option.
Can they change sail during a race, as is normal for displacement boats? They wouldn't want to lose enough power to drop off the foils, but if they've dropped off already (and are behind) anything's worth a try. I also read yesterday that nobody has tried their Code Zero yet, and that Luna Rossa were reaching so high to stay on their foils that their downwind vmg was minimal - I haven't seen video so maybe they did try it?
Having seen how long it takes them to get the jib off after the race I don't think a mid race change would work ...Even if it was allowed
Blimey that was gripping. I really liked the cats but had reservations about going back to monohull but I was totally wrong. Excellent stuff.
That take-off in front of the spectators on the last leg was impressive!
Jim Ratcliffe has history of sandbagging/bluffing!
Also as far as I can tell all sponsors are Ineos companies so centrally controlled/pleased/displeased.
Fun to watch on the nightshift though and here's hoping they can keep it up.
10 minutes to change a jib so that's never going to happen (plus they're just not to go carry a spare sail around just in case.... Too heavy.
Code zero would have too much drag once the boat was foiling. Do fun to play with but unrealistic given the race length.
Vmg of 2 knots is fairly pointless so Giles decided that sometimes it was better to just point the boat at the mark as much as possible and go in displacement mode.
AM wouldn't like this as their hull shape doesn't look good for displacement sailing.
At the moment it's looking like ineos and LR in the final, but AM will get back up to speed... Although tactically they're looking a bit dodgy.
The dinghy sailors show their worth in the very light stuff.
Wow, what happens when it goes wrong.
Well, that's probably a fatal setback for the Americans. Hope the Cup is decided by boats getting wrecked in crashes.
Hope the Cup is decided by boats getting wrecked in crashes.
Did you mean isn't?
At least the USA have 4 days to try to fix the boat before the next race.
Did you mean isn’t?
Oops, yes. Hope it isn't decided by crashes.
Good on Ben and crew, that was hard win won.
Some leap out the water from AM. Anyone know more about the damage?
INEOS were lucky about the first race being abandoned but the second attempt was good sailing.
Make America Float again?
Not really been into sailing but this is good stuff. Not going to comment on the tactics etc as I know naff all about it but Kurds quite exciting.
I did a single amatuer yatch race many years ago and did the odd go in a topper and laser as well as sailed round the barrier reef for a couple of weeks but never really be fully bitten by the bug 🙂
I’m not sure Ineos were lucky in the first, they’d just taken the lead with 2 laps to go.
Some leap out the water from AM. Anyone know more about the damage?
They're still towing it back to base. Apparently, there's a hole in the hull that they had to try and plug to stop it sinking, which means that all the gear on board is going to be soaking in seawater. Electrical and hydraulic gear will need to be stripped out and serviced or replaced.
Seeing pictures of it being kept afloat by lots and lots of inflatable bags, it looks like they were very lucky it didn't sink completely
Some pics.
Bits being returned.
Hole.
They look so graceful and the size stops you realising at times guite how fast they are going. At 40knts there is a lot of power in that hull. 7,600Kg has got to dissipiate its energy somewhere.
I've only ever been on one fastish boat that had backstays that needed releasing and that was just on a day out sailing in the top end of a force4 maybe a 5 at times. Lots of warnings from the boat owner about what getting it wrong 'could' result in, and that was on a boat that stuck to the water.
48kts round the corner 😲
INEOS were lucky about the first race being abandoned but the second attempt was good sailing.
It looked to me like they had coped the changing weather really well, and we’re about to take a good lead. Apart from the bit where they were sailing off the course! I’m in two minds - dealing the changing weather is one thing, but racing on in conditions that might destroy the boats is different.
I’d have love to have seen them crack on and cope, but the thing that decides it for me is that the rules cover when changing weather triggers an abandonment, and the boats & tactics are built to win within that rule set. So for me the abandoned race was the right call. Still think Ben was in for the win either way.
In a way I though the low wind and high wind racing both were interesting - especially with the limited changes they can have made over night.
USA have a hard week ahead to get back it out on the water for round 3.
Wow . Amazing racing. Bad news for America magic . I wonder if the other teams will be offering all the help they can. Bit of work to do there..
Don’t they have a spare boat too?
Did the foil leg collapse on landing? Is that what caused the hole?
Don’t they have a spare boat too?
I assume they build the first one to learn how things work, then the second one is refined based on the first one. If the first boat is as good as the second one, they wouldn't bother building two.
Bit of work to do there..
Duct tape and a sheet of plywood should see it good as gold.
They should rename it the Donald Trump!
Seems to be mirroring his recent disasters!
Did the foil leg collapse on landing? Is that what caused the hole?
A couple of forum reports from Auckland are saying it is part of the foil control mechanism mounting & hydraulics that punched a hole through the hull, not foil failure.
The issue with rebuilding isn't the carbon structure - it's all the drowned electronics and electrics. They will be replacing a lot of components that at first glance are ok.
I also suspect there will need to be a micro examination of a lot of mounting points for rig and rudder, foils etc.
Ineos not as good in the strong winds, and America magic even better than Prada. Race conditions could well decide the outcome ...
I also suspect there will need to be a micro examination of a lot of mounting points for rig and rudder, foils etc.
Yes, when you think about it, the hull itself doesn't really do anything when the boat's at speed. There's a structure that links the foil mounts to the rig and rudder, the hull itself is just there to keep it afloat when it's not foiling.
Then, even if the structure is sound, having to strip the entire boat and rebuild it, then get back out on the water and have the confidence to sail it on the limit will be a test.
That was an exciting watch live!
The reason the first race was abandoned was that the final 2 legs would have been on reach so point shoot turn point shoot. They deemed this not to be a proper race so turned the course through 90 degrees for the restart.
From what I've seen Team UK are good at everything atm. Seems to make a big difference have their tactician/navigator, Giles Scott, independent and not doing another job so he is solely focused on reading conditions and advising Ben.
LR and Ineos were told before the race that the front was coming in and could well result in the race being binned.
Probably not to difficult to fix the hull but as already said it's the electronics that will need close examination/replacement.
Nd then there's the question if why the runner wasn't released.... Schoolboy error.
This is the windiest month, my betting is ineos is being optimised for medium winds.
But they're well fast downwind and will take a look at their upwind performance in stronger breeze.
Yes, when you think about it, the hull itself doesn’t really do anything when the boat’s at speed.
Except hold the whole thing together under enormous load!
Nd then there’s the question if why the runner wasn’t released…. Schoolboy error.
Looks like it was a last minute decision change and bad comms that resulted in the runner still being on. Still I don't actually think that would have made much difference. You can't dump the main anyway as the boom is sheeted in hard always. It never goes over the side of the boat and I don't think it could even if the runner was off. True, a little bit of the leech at the top of the main would have spilled some wind but I'm not convinced that would have prevented the capsize.
It's a dark art though. Normal rules don't apply!!
You can’t dump the main anyway as the boom is sheeted in hard always.
My hypothesis is that the backstay caught the sail enough to cause the initial heel, the hull came up but the rudder foil held the stern down, boat flew, crashed back down and lost a lot of speed. If you're doing 40kt in a 20kt wind the apparent wind is shifted so far you don't need to let the main out far to dump it, but if you lose your forward way that no longer applies, hence the capsize. I don't know if anyone was in any state to do anything after they crashed back down, but that was the time to ease the main.
the rudder foil held the stern down
Why would the rudder foil hold the stern down....the foils provide lift
All these hypotheses sound feasible! Equally not much in the way of a righting moment either I don't suppose.
Lift up or down. It’s designed to hold a depth under the water.
Why would the rudder foil hold the stern down….the foils provide lift
The rudder provides the required force, whether up or down. Could be either.
Similar to the tailplane on a large aircraft - which is almost always a downward force since the aerodynamic centre is always behind the centre of gravity.
Not sure about the AC75s, I'd be surprised if it's a downforce, since it'd mean more up force neededon the foils and more drag in total. But they're wired machines with odd forces & moment arms, flying so much faster than the wind so apparent wind is hugely different & changes aren't obvious in their outcomes.
It's great!
I don't understand the physics of things with an AC75, other than they are nothing like a traditional boat. Even compared to something like a Moth with central board and foils, the forces and directions of them are very different.
When the bow rises, the top of the rig is pushing hard towards the mast - which now is laid back some - so creating an upward movement it seems. Go past a point of no return, add in hull lift and foils now at an angle, and that thing will just take off...
American Magic will be out for a while, expect to be ready for the semis.
The make-up of each crew is interesting. AM has skipper/tactician Hutchison also as a grinder. I can’t believe an old bloke makes the best grinder, plus it inhibits his course management. LR has split skippers. Whilst Ineos have less grinders, freeing up Scott to just be a tactician seems to pay dividends. They haven’t seemed to suffer from running 6 grinders instead of 8.
what are the grinders powering? just winches or is it hydraulics too? they change batteries - is this to power the wings or is that just the electronics and cameras and so on?
Grinders = winches.
Batteries = the hydraulic systems and electronics.
The way i see it, the batteries lift and lower the main foils. These batteries run a hydraulic system to do this. The sails (all controls, sheets, fine tune on outhaul, vang, halayard tensions etc), flaps, probably rudder and elevator and winches are all powered by another hydraulic system which is powered by the grinders.
#edit# What Matt said
They haven’t seemed to suffer from running 6 grinders
I think they suffered in the light and fluky winds when they were adjusting all the time, one of the press conferences had a comment about the grinders being spent more so a the end of that race then windier ones. However, having the tactician available to think clearly has paid dividends.
Been reading up on this as I was interested in what they did. From what I can gather the batteries only power the movement of the foils under the water and the grinders pump up the hydraulics for anything above the waterline including the bits that move the foils in and out of the water, anything that moves the sails etc.
link don't work
When the bow rises, the top of the rig is pushing hard towards the mast – which now is laid back some – so creating an upward movement it seems.
But the wind is still horizontal, so I don't think the angle of the mast matters.
Go past a point of no return, add in hull lift and foils now at an angle, and that thing will just take off…
Agreed.
Why would the rudder foil hold the stern down….the foils provide lift
the likes of I14s and 18ft skiffs use a t foil on the rudder to keep the bow down going upwind and bow up going downwind. I would guess that the elevator on the AC75 does a similar thing, but also controls the ride height like the elevator on a plane controls pitch.
Above link from dannybgoode should be: Link
Edit: but note that the article is from the previous event with the catamarans - rules may have changed
Here's one I found with quick Google on the Harken approach for AC75s: https://yachtracing.life/americas-cup-living-life-at-80-rpm/
I'm sure there was something with a bit more detail I read a while back.
T foils do all kinds of things depending on the boat, the application, and the situation. A million miles away from the ACs, but here's a brief rundown of what it does to a restricted development (Box rule, defined max sail area) dinghy class: https://www.national12.org/forum/index.php?topic=13085.0
I've experienced several moments of complete cognitive dissonance watching the 75s going through a gybe. All of the crew evolutions and foil changes scream 'gybe', but it's all done close hauled or near as damnit because of the apparent. And no spin or gennaker gybe involved either. It's just so otherwordly.
I’ve experienced several moments of complete cognitive dissonance watching the 75s going through a gybe.
Agreed, they just don't work on the same level of physics as a Laser....
Good bit here about T foil cavitation on American Magic during that incident: https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/sport/other/analysis-peter-lester-breaks-down-moment-and-aftermath-american-magics-capsize?auto=6223626287001
That's some big hole.
Not just the hole they need to worry about. Looking at the photos there are cracks running meters in every direction around the hole. I think Hutch said that the electrics are stuffed, the canting system is stuffed and all needs replacing. They hydraulic system appears to be ok though and they have spares of everything in the shed. Its going to be a long few days for them. All the time the others can look at their data and get better again.
Apparently, they are going to chop their other boat up to repair the hull.
It will probably be quicker as they probably need to remove about 25% of the hull to fix the hole and all the associated damage.
The hulls may be slightly different shape but it will be close enough to allow then to get into the water in a reasonable timeframe - massive job though.
The hulls may be slightly different shape but it will be close enough to allow then to get into the water in a reasonable timeframe
😆
America will probably come back and win it now, hmm.
anyone know what happens if prada and ineos finish on a score of 6 to 6 each ?
Who goes straight into final of two Pravda cup ?
Cumulative times or something I guess..
I'd expect a tie-break race @jerome, however race schedule now taken down from the website. I wonder if the teams will forfeit races against US to keep the playing field level and give them some time? There are all sorts of things to unfold before we're at a tie-break stage I guess, but I'm pretty sure prospective challengers will be wanting to get as much racing in as possible before they line up against the kiwis.
I've got an image in my head of them taking a chunk out of one side of the old boat and it ending up like asymmetric wave boards from windsurfing. Carving turns to port and sharp ones to starboard? 🙂
Although I assume they're going to "cut and shut" a full width section in where the hole is.
It's not like there's not precedent for sawing hulls in half and adding/removing/changing stretches of hull. A number of the old IOR boats had this done to them and I'm sure others since.
.
There's a part of me that thinks that if the Americans can't complete the round robins then they should be booted out - it would be very unfair on Ineos or the Italians if the US sat out the remaining round robin races, but managed to get repaired and then sailed and won the Prada semi-final, and then went on to win the Prada final (and on into the cup proper).
We will see I guess . Frustrating for all . America looked favourite of the three of the boats in those breezes, so would have been a great set of road robins. I need to find a video of how these boats do 30knt plus in 5-10 not winds. I race on a boat that does 5-10 knots in 30 knots of wind, and that feels fast..
asymmetric wave boards from windsurfing
yeah..there's a reason you don't see those anymore 🙂
however race schedule now taken down from the website.
Well, basically, AM have no chance of winning the round robins, so they are going to have to sail in the semi-finals starting next Friday. Therefore they will be aiming to spend all that time fixing the boat as best they can. I guess the organizers are waiting to confirm that before they release an updated schedule. There will only be two races if AM don't show up.
I race on a boat that does 5-10 knots in 30 knots of wind, and that feels fast.
you need to change "boats"..I can do 20+kts on my foiling windsurfer in 10-12kts...:-)
what happens if Prada and INEOS finish on a score of 6 to 6 each
Count back, the Italians go through assuming they win the last race...So we need to beat them once more in the next two races to go through without countback.
If it’s a tie, the winner of the last race between the 2 goes through.
Ineos win 1 of last 2 to progress to final.
LR need to win both.
I race on a boat that does 5-10 knots in 30 knots of wind, and that feels fast.
Been at 20-25knts planning in a couple of different designed boats both about 30ft long, that felt very fast indeed and very very wet, and yet nothing in comparison to these boats.
unfair on Ineos or the Italians
I think that if the US boat gets back in the water and wins, they will have proved themselves as a team, boat builders and sailors.