You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Britannia, the UK boat 2 and actual race boat now launched.
Looks amazing... Come on Mr_sir_Ainslie and co.
That just looks fast!
Pity they are going to stick a bloody great advert for ineos on top of it
It must be in the eye of the beholder.... to me that is just ugly.
But this on the other hand was just beautiful..to me. And I have been aboard her but never likely to get on Brittania
I have also sailed on the 12 metre Gretel , the 1962 challenger in Australia, also much more classically beautiful.
It must be in the eye of the beholder…. to me that is just ugly.
Yes.
But it looks fast. Just look at it.
They fly.
That foiling tack was pretty impressive. I’d still rather they went to the non foiling monohulls and hold the event in shifty winds but I accept I’m an old school dinghy sailor.
You're not alone jimw. The Js and similar boats were elegant, but to me the 12 Metres are beautiful. Timeless craft that seem to defy aging. I liked the charachters that sailed them too. Turner, Conner, Blackaller and even the steely eyed upstart Dickson. Plus match racing in 12s is far more appealing to me than drag racing.
Timeless craft that seem to defy aging.
Exactly. The two hours I spent helming Gretel on a shy spinnaker reach off the Whitsunday Islands in 1995 was one of the best sailing experiences I ever had.
But it looks fast. Just look at it.
Undoubtedly, but it is the same as comparing a modern F1 car to a Maserati 250F. I know which I prefer to watch ( and listen to) One was developed when F1 was a sport, the other when it is a business.
As a lifelong sailor I'm trying to a take an interest but..........meh
A stupid money business of a sport looking ridiculously incongruous in the current global situation and the UK effort is sponsored by a pretty unpleasant company that also looks like a dinosaur to the direction of travel most of would hoped were were travelling in term of the environment and sustainability before the world got covid bolloxed.
So, I'm out.
They're more hovercraft than boat.
I know nothing at all about boats but I do know that when I was a kid I used to draw boats touching the water.
I've turned into my Dad.
Aaaaa and it's nearly Vendee Globe time 😉
I spent a morning sat aboard Valsheda (J-Class) in the port of Douarnenez in 1988 drinking G&Ts - hoping to go for a sail - unfortunately the owner's daughter had bunked-off with a crew-member overnight so we didn't go anywhere. She did go out in the afternoon - I was on another boat and it was impressive to watch her sail by.
Aaaaa and it’s nearly Vendee Globe time
Which actually interests me more..
It must be in the eye of the beholder…. to me that is just ugly.
I guess it depends if you value form over function. Thank god the days of the old America's Cup are over...2 boats drifting around 20 miles offshore with no-one having a clue what is going on. The competition in San Francisco Bay was genuinely exciting, and the new boats are designed to do one thing...go bloody fast on all points of wind, and as a result they look stunning IMHO.
How much stuff must they sell to make sponsoring something this expensive pay?
Vendee Globe for me as well, it will have have me captivated for 70-ish days. Hopefully travel restrictions will have been lifted so I can go and welcome the victors back to Les Sables d'Olonnes.
I was ganna see them off in a couple of weeks but COVID-19 has put paid to that. We've sneaked one France trip in this year and that's it. Normally at least monthly 🙄
I guess it depends if you value form over function.
Oh, I can admire their singleminded purpose but do they look good?.. no
As for form over function?
Are they fast? Yes, but that is all they can do. You could argue that is their purpose, but at what cost, both in monetary terms and long term value?
Endeavour crossed the Atlantic under sail to take part in the America’s Cup, so was seaworthy. And yes I do know that she nearly bankrupted TOM Sopwith. But she is still sailing. Gretel was a successful racer in a number of long distances races including the Sydney-Hobart race and then a charter boat for many years earning a living. Would Someone be able to have a day sail on Britannia in 2043 and have a great day out? I doubt it.
I was looking at a still from that video earlier, and one thing that struck me was the underside of the hull looks exactly like the underside of the hull of the Cutty Sark!
Seeing as how fast the tea clippers were, there must be a hydrodynamic reason for having that flat centre part of the keel running back from the bow.
All I'll say is that it wasn't that long ago that 30knts was the holy grail for sail raft.... And these suckers are doing 50knts - it's amazing.
That said I think the foiling cat racing of the last AC will be hard to beat from a viewing perspective. But I was rooting for the NZ guys so slightly biased.
As technically superb these boats are I'm not entirely sure about how good the racing will be.
The 12m looked nice but the racing was utterly crap to watch.
Amazing how much water that J class boat is shifting - all that power going towards literally ploughing a hole through the sea, whereas the foiling boats are just skimming across the surface. Unfortunately, the fast boats look incredible on TV and that's what they need to get non-enthusiasts to watch to attract sponsors to pay for it all. I just dread what's gonna happen if one of them crashes at high speed.
High speed crash you say?
The bottom of that looks like an old pre-foiling International Moth - basically one long planing surface.
As a (now retired) foredeckie, I slightly resent the loss of spinnakers in racing. Asyms are fun and all, but need less knitting and hopscotch skills up front.
On the plus side, the speed of these things means that tactics and strategy are more easily seen and discussed with non-sailors.
I'm toying with getting back into dinghies as my oldest is really getting into his sailing and I don't have the time to devote to getting good enough for bigger boat series; if I can't spare the time, I don't want to curse the rest of my crew with my declining skills...
But I was rooting for the NZ guys so slightly biased.
Need to be very careful using the word 'rooting' in an Antipodean context... 😝
Always makes Aussies laugh.
Doesn't look like the Brittannia's port and stbd foils lift, like we see the Emirates doing? Is it a generation behind?
And what's Ratcliffe doing calling it "Brittannia" after moving residency to. Monaco? He's got some nerve.
Seeing as how fast the tea clippers were, there must be a hydrodynamic reason for having that flat centre part of the keel running back from the bow.
Based on the first generation I think it's to keep it stable in intermediate conditions. As it lands you want the wetted surface to be minimal and increase gradually, otherwise it will slow down too much then the surface friction means there's a huge hump to get over to take off again.
The outer dimensions of the hull are strictly controlled (so you end up with something that looks like a "boat") by the rules otherwise I suspect they'd have ended up closer to very narrow scows.
There was an argument over the wind conditions that would be allowed for racing. Obviously, there's an upper limit, but you need to know the lower limit so you know whether you need to design the "hull" to work in the water, or whether you can focus on it being merely an aerodynamic fuselage (remember they're doing 50mph, the aerodynamics are important). Judging by that hull they've decided there'll be some racing in the water not just on it.
Doesn’t look like the Brittannia’s port and stbd foils lift, like we see the Emirates doing? Is it a generation behind?
The lifting arms and mechanism are a one-design part to keep them strong enough. Just the foils on the end are unique.
Foiling is the future of light wind sailing...having started windfoiling in the last couple of months, I'm getting on the water way more...and 20kts in 10kts of wind is fantastic (and I'm only a beginner at it). A bit "exciting" when the foil breaks the surface and you crash down...
^ she's lively....
If that video is supposed to make the team look good it's an epic fail.
The "Patriot" name is typically American and lame.
The “Patriot” name is typically American and lame.
I heard there was a war one time where the American side called themselves "Patriots". Americans might have a different emotional reaction to it than Loyalists.
anyone heard an explanation into the holes in the side of Britannias hull on the bustle just behind the foil arm? cockpit drains maybe, but surely they would cause drag? or is there some form of ventilation thing going on generating pressure under the hull?
I had the same question - and assumed it was ventilation of some kind, like steps on a powerboat.
Foiling is the future of light wind sailing…having started windfoiling in the last couple of months, I’m getting on the water way more…and 20kts in 10kts of wind is fantastic (and I’m only a beginner at it). A bit “exciting” when the foil breaks the surface and you crash down…
Envious! I was promised some time on a foiling board this summer in Portland Harbour but then Covid happened.
Blown difuser.
I had the same question – and assumed it was ventilation of some kind, like steps on a powerboat.
Interesting. At first I thought that they were there to introduce air to break up the laminar flow [that is normally a good thing on no-foiling boats] and allow the hull to 'unstick' earlier and hence foil quicker.
But I'd have thought, in that case, that the holes would run down the hull towards the keel..... so, I have no idea.
Seems an odd place for drainage to exit though.
And odd to have 3(?) down each side, and not seemingly shaped to cause minimal disturbance? Perhaps they just expect to foil the vast majority of time.
yeehaa!
Patriot sponsored by Airbus made me chuckle. As for Britannia - how very quaint, lets get the spitfire flyby ready as well huh?
As @twodogs I've been windsurf foiling for a few years now, it's transformed lightwind windsurfing 🙂
Going to be interesting on the first race. As a current bowman , would love to see more of this.
As a current bowman , would love to see more of this.
As an ex-bowman I'm glad it's gone - that said my current ride (
swings both ways!!
Envious! I was promised some time on a foiling board this summer in Portland Harbour but then Covid happened.
If get a hint of another chance, grab it with both hands....it's just fantastic!
If get a hint of another chance, grab it with both hands….it’s just fantastic!
I tried foiling windsurfers over 20 years ago, but they were surface piercing foils and completely pointless outide a very limited wind range.
I will try it again.
I tried a foiling kiteboard a few years back setup but my kiteboarding skills were never that great so that ended as well as can be expected...
This was how foiling boards used to be...
Just seen these INEOS pics:
Wow.
Thats a spaceship not a boat
Yeah I remember those..never tried one. Not sure if you've watched the Robbie Naish interview on Windsurfing.TV, but he doesn't think the current design of foiling windsurfers are "right"...he admits he doesn't know what right is, but thinks they should be able to go way faster
Not seen that. I don't really following windsurfing much these days. I'll check it out.
Foilwise it was always the issue of getting enough power to get you foilborne and then not having too much power/drag/weight from the rig. And when it gets windy it usually gets choppy, so 'fun' times ahoy!
I will try one next summer. Looking forward to it.
I’m on a prima 38 and love the windy days .
But to be foiling at these speeds, must be incredible..
One day maybe if the technology ever drips down..
So, Day one of the Americas Cup - World Series. UK with a DNF and DNS. Cant system failure and had to abandon the second race as they tried not to capsize in the crowd. Not the start they were hoping for, but it looks like they have had issues for a while with the foils now. At least the US boat took a race off NZ.
Jesus, those things are scary fast.
closing speeds are phenomenal, unless that is you don't have control of your foils.
Jesus, those things are scary fast.
Potential closing speed of over 100kmh...
they've been reporting for a couple of weeks that the british boat is well off the pace
they’ve been reporting for a couple of weeks that the british boat is well off the pace
It seems more complex than that - it is slower to get up and going, but seems really quick in a blow, and seems to be (like Luna Rossa) quick in the turns. They have also had less development time on the water, with a few breakages and later start than others.
We are still 4 weeks from the actual event, and while it looks a bit shoogly at the moment, I am not betting against Ainslie and crew yet.
Team NZ crash.
Dive, dive, dive..
I'm surprised the rig survived that.... Maybe bits of it didn't.
On the plus side ineos is looking much punchier
After the pre-christmas racing I was rather worried that there was a major technical issue with the uk boat. But they appear to have her going well now. Pre-start penalties and a poor gybe and capsize from NZ, and from what I hear today quite a bit quicker than Prada downwind. So starting to get in to a good place. Looking forward to next weeks racing where it really starts to matter.
From what I've read, apart from better starts, Ineos is still too slow compared to any of the other boats (capsizes not withstanding)
Maybe.... pre-christmas they were at least as fast as the others - they just had a problem with lift-off.
I noticed the foil is very different now so they may have sacrificed some top end speed for better low speed lift.
You'd have thought that with all the F1 aerodynamics talent in the UK they'd have this completely nailed!
On the plus side ineos is looking much punchier
It is. The general consensus seemed to be that in a moderate+ breeze, in a straight line they are the fastest boat, from before Christmas. The issue seemed to be transition to take off, lighter winds and control during manoeuvres. Between possibly dodgy foils or the unsubstantiated software moans, they could see quite an improvement.
... and in displacement mode (non-foiling) they're fast!
So, pray for howling gales or flat calm, nothing in-between...?
Wasn't expecting that!
Well, how about that! Everyone wrote off the British boat a bit too quickly.
Well now.
That's great. Good on them.
The question- what changed (apart from stinger wind) and was pre-Christmas just hiding thier potential?
I know even a couple of weeks ago that commentators were saying when they got going they were the fastest top speed boat in a breeze.
Apparently, lots of work in the boat shed over Christmas, Ben also mentioned (twice) help from Mercedes GP, but still lots to do.
Cracking start...shows what I know! Hope they can keep it up in lighter winds
So, going back to my comment earlier about the F1 talent in the UK the Mercedes link makes 100% sense!
I wonder if they were brought in just before Xmas?
I bet they were.... Original foils were no good so they went to the best for help.
How long after the Prada cup before we see LH on board for a ride?!
Anyway, well done them..... Fantastic result.
what changed
I understand that they changed the mast, main, jib, rudder, elevator on the rudder, and how they control the foils. I suspect they changed the angle of attack of the main foils and some alterations to the foils themselves, as well as computer systems which control them. I think they also referenced they have changed how they use it all as well, as some other mods to the hull which arnt overly apparent to the naked eye.
Apart from what they've done with the boat, it looks like Ben lived up to his reputation as a helmsman, and that the fears that foils would negate the skills of match racing were unfounded. I think they may also have been lucky with the wind strength and a windshift at the start of one race (but they may have anticipated that). If they can win in lighter winds that would be cracking.
Amazing. This could be an interesting race then.. Ben dominating in the starting sequencing is always impressive, the tactics are there, now they have the boat. We will see...
good to hear that the protest by the Italians on the outhaul on Rita has no punishment, but does need to be resolved. https://www.livesaildie.com/breaking-news-luna-rossa-prada-pirelli-protests-ineos-team-uk/
Not sure what the final outcome of the protest on the Italian boat is regarding the use of their running backstays which resulted in Prada using the running backstay in the racing today rather than leaving it off like they did before Christmas.
understand that they changed the mast, main, jib, rudder, elevator on the rudder, and how they control the foils. I suspect they changed the angle of attack of the main foils and some alterations to the foils themselves, as well as computer systems which control them.
But, as Trigger would say, it is still the same boat... 😀
good to hear that the protest by the Italians on the outhaul on Rita has no punishment, but does need to be resolved.
It's probably minor going on the fact that the boat measured fine before the event.
Having just watched the races (with t a big grin on my face) what impressed me most was the seemingly very stable and low ride height that they never had before and the fact that they were using a smaller jib than either of the other boats - this means they've got more power to come when they need it.
They knew they were down on power as the new rig has been in for about 2 weeks, so it was under construction probably at the end of November.
On the first tack on the second race they were higher and faster than LR - and when Ken Read (who I lived and raced with in '85.... did I mention that? 😉 ) says ".... Wow - that's impressive" it actually means something!!
Don't go thinking it was 'windy' - most of the time the breeze they were sailing in was only about 13 knots with a few extra in the top right hand corner.
Other thing I noticed was that the foils no longer hold water and are lacking the big visible trim tab that was there pre-xmas.
TBH it looks like a rocket ship now. That combined with the fact that Ben and Giles Scott are both good yachters (I would have actually put Giles as being the better Finn sailor at the end - but that may be an age thing and he's a bit taller and heavier than BA) makes for a potent combination.
Time will tell but I think ALL the other teams will be pretty concerned at the moment.
So it appears that Ben was sandbagging, or at least knew that certain upgrades were coming which made the jigsaw puzzle work and wernt maybe as concerned as the press were trying to making out. I hope they haven't blinked too early and the others still can step on the gas more but later.
I doubt they were sandbagging or, if they were, it wasn't by much. Don't forget that they have sponsors to keep happy and deliberately looking crap isn't a good look.
But they obviously knew that the new rig was coming but uncertain of how much improvement it would bring.
Foils and controlling system is a big one. More power from the rig obvs helps get out of the water but they're really slick now and that's because the boat is more controllable than it was before.
This is a combination of foil efficiency, control hardware and software (I'm guessing it's partly software controlled).
A quiet, slick, boat is generally fast.
I have always had the impression that Ben Ainslie likes to be under pressure and come into a race as an underdog, or appearing so.
I wouldn't be surprised if the lack of performance in the previous series wasn't entirely unintentional.
He's an interesting character and I think I read somewhere years back that he's got psychopathic traits which is why he's so good at this.