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It won’t be, but we will be voting for the politicians who make the bed, instead of getting the ones another country choses.That’s the whole point of independence.
Groundhog day.
It won’t be, but we will be voting for the politicians who make the bed, instead of getting the ones another country choses.
That’s the whole point of independence.
"Another country" - That just about says it all, you lot must get indoctrinated in school with this nonsense.
Sums up some of the comments above and reflects on what was perceived (rightly or wrongly) complete dithering over Brexit.
I’ve never really understood the fervent hate of the English that I sometimes see from Scottish
Knuckledraggers, that's all. I don't hate the English at all.
“Another country” – That just about says it all, you lot must get indoctrinated in school with this nonsense.
We all get educated about a period in history when we were another country, a border of sorts still exists, our flag still exists, we still have a football team, technically we have our own currency (one which is occasionally not even accepted south of the border) in fact, many of the usual indicators of 'country' status still exist. Politically we are obviously very different from everybody south of the border, see 48 SNP seats. So semantics aside, why shouldn't we consider ourselves another country?
I've been watching the BBC review of the election all morning, there has been some very interesting points of view (as you'd expect)
One thing is for certain is that Jeremy seems to have been a very large part of the Labour collapse.. and thats fine to say after the event. But the consensus does seem to steer towards HIM being the problem. Which makes me question why so many Labour members have voted and supported him throughout the last few years. If the underground feeling is such that your supporters don't back you, then where is the sense of leadership? Typically the comments form the Labour party MP's are "we will reflect and understand the deltas" and yes you certainly have some time to reflect now... I'd suggest you review the whole Party and it's ideals whilst you are there because from the comments of voters and supporters it's clear they didn't support the leader.
It was nice to hear the editor of the Times simply and clearly define Lyingblohards position of a committed liar and deceiver. On public TV thats a fairly healthy statement to make, and these people publish political comments and report on MP's daily.
We do have lyingblohards swagger to look forward to, there will be no stopping his arrogance and belligerence now. And I just don't get why the UK have voted for such a vile person... which simply falls back to the position of they must like his arrogance or wish to emulate it in some way.
That's a very sad position the UK finds itself IMO.
And me out of the thread.
And if anyone needs any further proof that Corbyn is an authoritarian ideological dullard who would rather be right in his own world than win....
Jeremy Corbyn has said he is very sad at the election result and suggested he will step down in the early part of next year, but insisted he has “pride in the manifesto”.
The Labour leader gave a short statement in which he did not apologise to the 60 Labour MPs who lost their seats or acknowledge any responsibility for the party suffering its worst result since 1935
Which makes me question why so many Labour members have voted and supported him throughout the last few years.
Because Labour Party Members and Labour Voters are not always the same thing.
I’ve never really understood the fervent hate of the English that I sometimes see from Scottish or Irish quarters apart from the obvious historical background that should be overcome by now surely?
The same reason (albeit less severe these days) that white people don't get racism and men don't get feminism.
It won’t be, but we will be voting for the politicians who make the bed, instead of getting the ones another country choses.
Take back control!
Utter shite Molly, it's not the same at all.
There's little or no anti English nonsense up here, it's a remnant of a by gone era.
Take back control!
Exactly, over how taxes are raised and spent. Over which wars we choose to participate in. In how we choose to react to the climate crisis. Over how we treat the most vulnerable in society through our social care system. Over whether we want nuclear weapons.
These are all areas that are, to a greater or lesser extent, controlled by Westminster and which will always make it impossible for Scotland to decide it's own destiny.
Now ask a Brexiteer the same question and tell them they aren't allowed to mention bananas.
Surely Boris must realise letting Scotland leave basically removes 50 opposition seats and will pretty much stop any other party ever getting elected again apart from the Cons?
The same reason (albeit less severe these days) that white people don’t get racism and men don’t get feminism.
Well speak for obviously superior self molgrips. I think you mean some white people and some men. Dealing in absolute generalisations is what is wrong with the majority of this forum.
Surely Boris must realise letting Scotland leave basically removes 50 opposition seats and will pretty much stop any other party ever getting elected again apart from the Cons?
Hard to argue with that. Lets do it.
I’ve never really understood the fervent hate of the English that I sometimes see from Scottish or Irish quarters apart from the obvious historical background that should be overcome by now surely?
I’ve never really understood the fervent hate of the Germans that I sometimes see from English quarters apart from the obvious historical background that should be overcome by now surely?
But the consensus does seem to steer towards HIM being the problem. Which makes me question why so many Labour members have voted and supported him throughout the last few years.
But the consensus does seem to steer towards HIM being the problem. Which makes me question why so many Labour members have voted and supported him throughout the last few years.
Because, as an ironic mirror of brexit itself, the problem isn't really Jeremy Corbyn. The problem is people's perception of Jeremy Corbyn. For all the reasons that have been cited on STW previously, I'd suggest that most people who have been posting on this thread and the Other One are way more politically engaged than the vast majority of the electorate. We simply aren't representative of the whole.
Someone was telling me yesterday afternoon, a lot of people where she worked hadn't made their minds up yet how they were going to vote later that day. Just how disconnected can you be?
We might spend ages combing through articles looking for things like previous voting history but we're atypical, for many voters what they know about JC comes from very carefully filtered and heavily biased "news" articles from places like the Daily Mail.
This is perhaps why Labour weren't in much of a hurry to replace JC. Simply put, it wouldn't have made any difference. Because if they'd elected, oh I don't know, Hugh Grant as leader, you can bet your bottom dollar that the following day the Express would be rerunning the story of him receiving horatio in a lay-bay.
This entire shitstorm, from the referendum result to yesterday's election, is nothing more than a propaganda war. One which we are losing, badly.
“Another country” – That just about says it all, you lot must get indoctrinated in school with this nonsense.
Scotland and England are two different countries, whether you like it or not.
If I was Scottish or lived in Scotland I would want independence from the Tory UK. Scottish people clearly wants different things which is why they vote in the SNP and before that Labour whereas most of England votes in the Tories.
It would be my main reason for moving to Scotland, it clearly wouldn't be the weather...
is nothing more than a propaganda war. One which we are losing, badly.
That is the fascinating thing to me. The right and centre right have adopted lynton Crosby's advice - pick a simple phrase, with or without any real meaning (preferably without, so that it can't be scrutinized) repeat ad nauseum. Say nothing else. Win
They win because it works and yet others don't simply adopt it.
Scottish people clearly wants different things which is why they vote in the SNP
Hang on, hang on. We don't know how many English people would have voted for a party like the SNP, because there wasn't one available with critical mass of support.
there wasn’t one available with critical mass of support.
It wouldn't be the same anyway. Regional nationalist parties only really work in demographically and geographically minority areas which can survive on a single theme.
An English nationalist party would have a totally different appeal.
Hang on, hang on. We don’t know how many English people would have voted for a party like the SNP, because there wasn’t one available with critical mass of support.
BNP, UKIP, Brexit party. Take your pick.
BNP, UKIP, Brexit party. Take your pick.
It wouldn’t be the same anyway. Regional nationalist parties only really work in demographically and geographically minority areas which can survive on a single theme.
Yeah probably. The SNP has the advantage of being Scottish in an English dominated world. Post-indy you'd end up with the same rival factions throwing shit at each other the same as any other country, but being forced to work together for the sake of PR. Plus as centrists the SNP would continue to offer a votable party because they've already earned their credibility.
Damnit! The swear filter buggers the link
So I’ll give you an excerpt -
“I still think ‘Go and die, Obi Wan ****nuts’ could well mean ‘your manifesto is hugely popular and you’re the man for us’. If given the correct Marxist reading.”
BNP, UKIP, Brexit party. Take your pick.
Daft sod.
molgrips
Subscriber
Scottish people clearly wants different things which is why they vote in the SNPHang on, hang on. We don’t know how many English people would have voted for a party like the SNP, because there wasn’t one available with critical mass of support.
Lets not pretend this election was about policies, boris presented nothing, still no idea what he's going to do.
It was an election based on personality and a shit slogan. Get brexit done...Which seems to work..
I distinctly remember sturgeon saying that this election wasn't about Scottish independence before it happened. Funny how quickly things change.
It was an election based on personality and a shit slogan. Get brexit done…
Which is a policy and one which a large portion of the electorate wants. Judging from the referendum and GE results somewhere between 46% and 52% want it. But with FPTP even 46% is a "majority". Remove Brexit (hypothetically) from the election and I reckon even with Corbyn in charge Labour would have come out of this quite well. There's no way they would have lost the likes of Bassetlaw and Bolsover.
Anyway, it begs the question I asked weeks ago, why on Earth did they think it was a good idea to agree to an election?
And if anyone needs any further proof that Corbyn is an authoritarian ideological dullard who would rather be right in his own world than win….
Erm... Having an ideaology is a good thing in a politician. Its not just about winning, it's about winning to effect policy which aligns with that ideaology. If people reject that, you don't just change your mind about what you think is right! It's called principles
Erm… Having an ideaology is a good thing in a politician. Its not just about winning, it’s about winning to effect policy which aligns with that ideaology. If people reject that, you don’t just change your mind about what you think is right! It’s called principles
It is about winning. If you don't win it's because what you have to offer isn't what people want. In a democracy a politicians job is to do what the people want.
Ideology is for dictators.
Re Sturgeon/snp - I think I heard this morning that the vote for the snp was 45% of the total Scottish vote, if so, it’s not really a clear mandate for anything particularly useful is it? Apart from possibly a lot of disaffected voters doing a tactical thing rather than wanting to claim independence?
What would happen if indyref2 duplicated the result of the first? I know that tenacity and perseverance are very good words and attributes but really? Do 40 odd % of Scottish voters really believe Germany will have enough money left for more EU development grants?
@bikebuoy - crap flounce dude 😉
Ideology is for dictators.
Bollocks. Although, with a ‘flexible’ attitude to morality like that, you’d have been okay in 1930s Germany I suppose. Might have even got a nice shiny Hugo Boss uniform out of it, too...
if so, it’s not really a clear mandate for anything particularly useful is it?
See previous post re. tory proportion of vote (hint, its 45%)
I'm not convinced independance would win a second ref., but I think its fair enoguh for them to try. I fear for Wales's status in the union if they do become independant, as we'd jsut be an even more minor concern at westmister
Sinn Fean (sp.?) also want a referendum for NI given the NI MP composition.
Anyone interested to hear what the most prominent demographics were in the Lab > Con shifts?
https://news.sky.com/story/general-election-the-map-of-british-politics-has-been-redrawn-11885274
I know, I was shocked too.
Nahh, the Nazis were principled in their own heads.
Truly ideologically unprincipled people understand that no ideology is worth the harm ideologues can cause.
Labour need more flexible mercenary like characters again to be able to take the fight to the conservatives.
Posted that earlier cougar. Very strong correlations noted in labour swing with education and work. The public got what the votes for. The working classes wanted Brexit and that’s what they voted for. Labour were not offering it.
Tbf labour need someone who is seen to actually be effective as an opposition leader, rather than a bumbling old fart who isn't aware enough to call out issues in Parliament or in interviews.
he just came across as someone who really didn't want to win or be pm.
Boris was described today as ideology lite,not good on detail more of a broad brush approach to issues and relatively liberal.An ERG type zealot as leader would be far worse.
Yup, Boris is a bloody walk in the park compared to what would happen if we had a principled headbanger like Mark Francois or Rees-Mogg.
@bikebuoy – crap flounce dude
&
@cougar..
Yeah, well I’m not in a good place ATM. So thanks for commenting.
I understand all too well the intricacies of this current political situation. I am up to speed with all the daily issues we’ve read/witnessed.
It wasn’t a flounce per-se’ more a case of nothing more to add, that hasn’t already been said.
Cheers.
Its Friday o’clock...
? Wasn't me.
Daft sod.
Plaid Cymru then? You’re spoilt for choice.
Posted that earlier cougar. Very strong correlations noted in labour swing with education and work.
Very strong correlations noted in Tory swing with lack of education and age.
Very strong correlations noted in Tory swing with lack of education and age.
They just won a load of working class constituencies.
It’s a dearth in the ability/desire to critically analyse what is read on Facebook/Twitter/gutter press/memes shared on WhatsApp that makes people so vulnerable to this modern style of propaganda.
Correlation is entirely predictable I think. Sad.
@Del wrote:
I distinctly remember sturgeon saying that this election wasn’t about Scottish independence before it happened. Funny how quickly things change.
It wasn't! It was about being dragged out of EU against what Scotland voted for, now that looks more than likely that we will be dragged out of EU after yesterdays results.
Why shouldn't we now focus on independence so Scotland can seek joining the EU as a separate nation?
The SNP has the advantage of being Scottish in an English dominated world.
Exactly. Think Catalans, Quebec, Georgia etc. Northern Ireland is going that way if these results are a guide.
They don't even need a slogan, for the most part it's a simple Crosby, type message right in the name.
If it ever happened they'd end up were the UK is now. Once you've lost your USP, you've got to have an actual plan.
? Wasn’t me.
You quoted a bit of my post and answered...
This is a thoroughly depressing read - my hometown.
We just got rid of an excellent local MP (Sue Hayman) and voted in ex-UKIPer.
Well at least the 'spoons at 8am' denizens are happy.
They just won a load of working class constituencies.
That voted leave. The graphic which showed that Lab. lost votes to Con and brexit in strong leave areas and to SNP and Lib Dem in strong remain ones.
That and Cummings literally telling everyone it was about brexit today.
The structural problems in the labour party are absolutely a problem but they weren't the problem this time around. Even the opponents spad is saying that.
It is about winning. If you don’t win it’s because what you have to offer isn’t what people want. In a democracy a politicians job is to do what the people want.
No, in a democracy people choose the politicians whose ideas align with their own. A politicians job is to deliver on their promises if they get chosen
Sturgeon didn't push IndyRef2, that's true. She made it all about stopping Brexit. 75% of people in Scotland voted for parties pledging to stop Brexit or offer a 2nd referendum with a remain option. The SNP couldn't have a stronger mandate to do everything in their power to stop Scotland leaving the EU.
The party who wouldn't shut up about IndyRef2 was the Tories. Voters deserted them.
After 2017 the Tories were quick to jump on the SNP's loss of seats as a sign that independence was dead. By bringing Indyref2 front and centre they've managed to gift the SNP a mandate to pursue independence as one of the options for keeping Scotland in the EU.
The SNP isn’t just about independence. Whenever I do one of those online questionnaires that match your own policies to that of the parties, they always suggest that the SNP are the closest match, yet I’m in England, and don’t want Scotland to break away. I think those over simplifying and claiming the SNP only get support in Scotland because they have Scottish in the name should do more research.
A politicians job is to deliver on their promises if they get chosen
Exactly. I’d add that it’s their job to try to convince/educate the electorate as to why their ideology is attractive too. It’s NOT a principled politician’s job to flap around in the breeze of public opinion trying to please everyone; that’s populism, and leads to dark places.
Great result for the country, affirming the sentiment of the majority. The fact that Labour held seats in predominantly University constituencies resonates their target voters - unqualified, inexperienced, easily influenced, idealistic day dreamers. I was one once. Thankfully the country has elected the best of a bad bunch of dross, given the limited options. Would the markets would have reacted the same way if Corbyn had slipped through the net? I think not. After all, most remainers' main argument seems to be the economy, is it not?
Cougar
Posted that earlier cougar. Very strong correlations noted in labour swing with education and work.
Very strong correlations noted in Tory swing with lack of education and age.
Oh I understand what you guys are saying now. Basically it was the thickies and feeble-minded who don't understand what they are doing that made the difference for the Tories. But wait, weren't these the same morons who put Labour into power in the past? Splitters...
No, in a democracy people choose the politicians whose ideas align with their own.
Replace happy with principled/ideological.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JGrpHszRhTc
You quoted a bit of my post and answered…
Oh, did I? Sorry, my bad then, I don't pay much attention to usernames.
NHS A&E stats released today… and they’re even worse than the last lot, which were already the worst since records began… great timing.
It’s just an age thing. Snowflakes have degrees and snowflakes want free stuff from the old beardy man in red this time of year.
Oh and if people do vote for ideologies, policies and principles - that kind of supports what we’re saying. Obviously they rejected Corbyns in this scenario.
Basically it was the thickies and feeble-minded who don’t understand what they are doing
Don’t forget the terminally selfish and nasty, and sadly decent people who’ve been misled in their droves. Which category do you put yourself in? Seriously, as you only feel able to join the political discourse from the safety of having won, how DO you justify voting for the dishonest, self serving, nasty bunch of **** that you did? Have you got a friend who’s a nurse in Leeds hospital by any chance?
Don’t forget the terminally selfish and nasty, and sadly decent people who’ve been misled in their droves. Which category do you put yourself in? Seriously, as you only feel able to join the political discourse from the safety of having won, how DO you justify voting for the dishonest, self serving, nasty bunch of **** that you did? Have you got a friend who’s a nurse in Leeds hospital by any chance?
Oh no, a non-believer in the echo chamber!
Oh and if people do vote for ideologies, policies and principles
They* don’t. They vote for personalities and sound bites. Doesn’t mean politicians should abandon principles. Just means they need more convincing personalities and better sound bites to sell them with, I guess.
Oh no, a non-believer in the echo chamber!
Absolutely! Pity he didn’t pipe up before really; it wouldn’t have been such an echo chamber then, would it?
*massive generalisation obvs; people vote for lots of reasons
I'm reminded of the old adage that "the only thing worse than a bad loser, is a bad winner"
So when do get to read the investigation into russian political interference?, or will this be canned by boris under his new mandate to do whatever he ****ing wants?
Yeah, there do seem to be a few new names floating around, quiet Tories? Why so quiet before the fact?
Arguing with lefties is not as much fun as you might think.
As an English Conservative voter, I believe the Scots should be given their second referendum. I can't understand why we would or should deny it. Its a win win. The Scottish electorate get their say. If they vote to remain in the UK, they prove pretty decisively they want to stay as there would be two confirming votes in a decade, and Sturgeon would have to leave it alone. If they vote to leave, good on them and good luck, it's their decision. I personally think it would ruin them, but it's not my say and if its what they want, go for it. It won't hurt England at all if they do leave (certainly not in the long run), if anything we'll probably be slightly better off thanks to the Barnet formula.
What are the odds on the report on foreign interference in U.K. vote and democracy seeing the light of day now?
This hasn't been an election in the conventional sense, it's been a meme war!
As an English Conservative voter, I believe the Scots should be given their second referendum. I can’t understand why we would or should deny it. Its a win win. The Scottish electorate get their say. If they vote to remain in the UK, they prove pretty decisively they want to stay as there would be two confirming votes in a decade, and Sturgeon would have to leave it alone. If they vote to leave, good on them and good luck, it’s their decision. I personally think it would ruin them, but it’s not my say and if its what they want, go for it. It won’t hurt England at all if they do leave (certainly not in the long run), if anything we’ll probably be slightly better off thanks to the Barnet formula.
Good call.
Yes, Scotland should have their 2nd referendum and whatever the result so be it.
Good luck to Scotland either way.
The party who wouldn’t shut up about IndyRef2 was the Tories. Voters deserted them.
But Sturgeon said on telly just now it is an indication of IndyRef2? Yes?
One possible plus point of the result is we have a Prime Minister who doesn't really and never has believed in Brexit and is now in no way relying on the votes of the lunatic fringe in is own party. He will have no problem in delivering something far more palatable to those of us who are still wondering what is the problem that Brexit solves. It's not like he'll feel any obligation to do irreparable damage to the economy just to keep JRM and his cronies happy. A smaller Tory majority might have actually have tied him down to what he knows is madness but would have delivered anyway to keep in office. His totally unprincipled approach to life and his willingness to betray absolutely anyone might actually work in our favour.
If Boris goes the full 5 years it will be half a century since any Labour leader apart from Tony Blair won a UK general election. Maybe someone more like Blair and less like Corbyn needed?
Looks like I backed the wrong horse. Should have gone with this for Christmas number 1.
Maybe someone more like Blair and less like Corbyn needed?
Labour will have Keir Starmer as their next leader 🤔
FT beat sky to it with % Blue collar Workers and a correlation of over 70%! But the same underlying reasons.
v8ninety
Basically it was the thickies and feeble-minded who don’t understand what they are doing
Don’t forget the terminally selfish and nasty, and sadly decent people who’ve been misled in their droves. Which category do you put yourself in? Seriously, as you only feel able to join the political discourse from the safety of having won, how DO you justify voting for the dishonest, self serving, nasty bunch of **** that you did? Have you got a friend who’s a nurse in Leeds hospital by any chance?
It's supercilious people like you that make people like me feel that they have to come and let the World know that not everyone is as misguided as you. Who made you Lord high and mighty?
Oh I understand what you guys are saying now. Basically it was the thickies and feeble-minded who don’t understand what they are doing that made the difference for the Tories
No it’s what the data shows, although correlation doesn’t mean causation. It is clear that in leave areas there was a swing to conservative and in remain there was a swing against (11% in mine). The tendency to favour remain or leave had a very strong age and education component, so the result is not at all surprising. It’s not being pejorative. The voters knew exactly what they were voting for (Brexit delivery). Hardened labour voters had this choice made easier by the quality of the Labour leadership. They didn’t trust Corbyn so leant Conservatives their vote to Get Brexit Done. I don’t have a problem with any of that.