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Is that why we are having another vote in December then Rich?
yes, as it has the stated goal of returning a parliment to deliver brexit.
three GEs in the timecourse of a single parliment to confirm the result of a single referendum.
“Confirm”… what does that mean in this context?
“Confirm”… what does that mean in this context?
the mechanisms of a representative parlimentary democracy applying scrutiny to the outcome of a binary vote.
it has the stated goal of returning a parliment to deliver brexit
Who or what has that stated goal? The parliament returned is quite likely to either fail to deliver Brexit, or choose not to even bother trying and/or to ask us in a referendum if it’s what we really want the next 10 years to be all about.
Who or what has that stated goal?
the current Prime Minister; blonde chap, full of shit.
Good job there are other options.
Good job there are other options.
name them?
Another prolonged length of uncertainty. A general election .. then possibly another referendum about leaving/staying in the EU.
And if Leave get another slim win .. we get another three years of the same.
And if Remain win .. its the Leavers turn to cry about the result.
Democracy in the country has been shown to be a farce. And as such I fully expect extreme views and political opinion to flourish as a result.
Its gonna be a rough ride for the foreseeable future from now on.
Democracy in the country has been shown to be a farce.
Not sure I agree with this? Peoples views are split roughly equally, the results of the last GE gave us a parliament that roughly reflects this split.
Democracy seems to have worked, the issues are elsewhere.
First tactical voting site I've seen for this election
Gina Millers European one from earlier in the year was a bit nicer, but at least it's something to start sharing with people.
Democracy in the country has been shown to be a farce.
How so?
Just checked the odds at the bookies.
Overall majority:
Conservatives 1.8/1
No overall majority 2/1
Labour 17/1
Lib Dems 67/1
Most seats:
Conservatives 1.1/1
Labour 6/1
Lib Dems 21/1
That tactical voting plan is mainly just vote Labour!
Of course.
🙂
Democracy in the country has been shown to be a farce.
i'd say the opposite. I think that recently our democracy looks in pretty good shape in the way parliament has held an arrogant and anti-democratic executive to account and stopped it just doing what the hell it likes.
The problem is the electorate were given a binary yes/no choice to an incredibley complex issue and lied to that it was easy. When the result was virtualy 50/50 that incredibley complex issue became even less deliverable.
What we're in the middle of is a perfect political storm. Anyone offering easy answers is a liar. Anyone believing there are easy answers is an idiot
I don't understand the 'Tactical Vote' page. Is that Labour's masterplan? "Vote for us, go on, please?"
Democracy in the country has been shown to be a farce.
Not really. Democracy is working well, it is just the results that are causing problems combined with the fact the being in or out of the EU is now seen as much more important to people than it actually is or was ever before. When a 50/50 split occurs democracy becomes harder to deal with as the losers are pretty much the same number of people as the winners. When the winners have 80% is all seems a bit fairer and easier to swallow.
I don’t understand the ‘Tactical Vote’ page. Is that Labour’s masterplan? “Vote for us, go on, please?”
It's based on the last GE results and suggests which party is most likely to oust the Tory's in each seat.
Due to the way the electoral system works, if you really oppose this Conservative government the most effective way of removing them may be to vote for a party you don't 100% agree with.
In key seats if the LD/Labour vote is split then Cons will walk it.
And if Leave get another slim win .. we get another three years of the same.
It'll be 10 years because the future relationship is far more complex than the WA & you can bet the brexiteers will be just as clueless about that but as they have in the first round of negotiations
Brexit has poisoned the country for a decade +
Due to the way the electoral system works, if you really oppose this Conservative government the most effective way of removing them may be to vote for a party you don’t 100% agree with.
I can’t think of a more disingenuous and un integral way to vote. Vote for who you want, not to remove someone from power because of your personal dislike. This is the (other) way to letting some idiot we never voted for run the county.
Certainly a government with a -43 majority needs to be immediately kicked out.
This has always been my view. A Govt without a positive majority should step down... no need for a GE in that instance, just equally split the responsibility across all parties until the full term is up.
Rightly nothing major will happen, or get through Parliament on an extreme or one sided proposition but it will bring stability and make all parties work together for the people they represent. (which MPs seem to forget what they’re there for and who they represent)
I’ve no prediction as to the outcome, all I will say is a vast majority of the UK public are sick to the back teeth with a bunch of self serving arseholes who happily sit behind a gonk. And the Conservative party have shown day in day out that they are the pinnacle of the self serving boorish retarded viewpoint.
What ever the outcome, we deserve better quality representatives and policies that support a cohesive inclusive government that looks forward and plans for its public.
I for one sincerely hope the Youth of this country come out in droves to vote this time, I think they’re the ones who will make the difference this time around... if they can be bothered (as traditionally the youth vote turn out is proportionally far less) and they’ve seen just how divisive and exclusive the current conservatives are... i just hope that all they’ve seen over the last 3.5years has made them realise that’s its them that hold the future, and a future that doesn’t split the country in half and break families up and cut ties and working collaboratively with its nearest trading members.
And last point (yea worevz) now that Pound Sterling is almost about parity with the Euro, it’s about time we adopted it and went headlong all into the EU.
Trouble with the tactical vote page is that it's based on the last election and there's been a whole lot of water under the bridge since then as an arch remainer my tactical voting plan even includes the potential to vote for the brexit party ❎
i’d say the opposite. I think that recently our democracy looks in pretty good shape in the way parliament has held an arrogant and anti-democratic executive to account and stopped it just doing what the hell it likes.
Agreed. Reconciling a difficult decision should take time and be robust.
I very much doubt there will be a majority government after this election. Polling is all over the place and I expect that they cannot be applied evenly across the UK anyway.
Lib dems will make some gains in the south, Brexit party will split the tory vote and maybe even gain a few seats but will not have much effect in the north. SNP will clean up in scotland. Around 100 seats to the smaller parties making a majority almost impossible to achieve for anyone
Labour have the boots on the ground for a campaign which no other english party does and the fairness rules on tv mean they will get fairer airtime both of which mean I expect their polling to rise during a campaign
Johnsons deal will come under great scrutiny and thus become a hard sell. He may well regret making the election about brexit as he will be under pressure from Farage to make a "clean break" ie no deal and those on the remain side will be able to pick big holes in his agreement
So thats my prediction. Hung Parliament. Labour led government unless the lib dems can give the tories a majority.
On our democracy - its been shown to be totally not fit for purpose.
What I would like to see is the next government include a constitutional convention to look at parliamentary reform and devolution. We would never be in this mess if we had a proportionately elected parliament
Our parliament is hugely expensive, corrupt to the core, archaic in its practices and allows extreme governments on minorities of the vote
Some people clearly don't understand tactical voting. My desire to avoid a Tory government - and I admit to voting for them in the distant past - has nothing to do with seeing Corbyn as PM, but that is a less destructive result than Johnson. Voting for who I want to win will result in a Tory MP locally, and probably a Tory government.
I agree that despite it looking like a bit of a mess, our parliamentary democracy has done its job in preventing a relatively tiny majority in a referendum drive through some disastrous policies based on about 35% of the eligible electorate.
Trouble with the tactical vote page is that it’s based on the last election and there’s been a whole lot of water under the bridge since then as an arch remainer my tactical voting plan even includes the potential to vote for the brexit party ❎
I get your sentiment.
The biggest threat to the tories will be from TBP. Unless de Pfeffel goes for an ultra hard Brexit, farange and his cabal will mop up many tory seats, just look at the last European elections.
I fear Labour/SNP/Lib Dem's have shot themselves in the foot with this election. Unless there is something going on behind the scenes between these 3 parties, then I'm thinking we are in big trouble.
Tactical voting is the only way many in the UK have of making their vote count. Vote for the party most likely to stop the party you like least winning the seat.
You know it makes sense. If every labour and lib dem voter did this then the tories would be reduced to a rump
And if Leave get another slim win .. we get another three years of the same.
And if Remain win .. its the Leavers turn to cry about the result.
We'll just have to hope that the split is more decisive either way this time around. 60%+ for either side would be enough to shut up the opposite side, especially if it swings towards Remain!
These next few weeks are going to be a nightmare figuring out who gets my vote, normally I vote on mainly local issues but not this time. I'll vote for whoever I need to to have a chance of this all being cancelled. The Remain camps need to band together and provide a solid voting option to stop Boris and bring some sense to the whole thing. Leave used dirty tactics and chose the right slogans to connect with certain people last time, Remain need to do that but even better this time.
Tactical voting is the only way many in the UK have of making their vote count. Vote for the party most likely to stop the party you like least winning the seat.
Great in theory, no point in reality depending on your constituency. Constituency where I live;
Tory 33,000
All the other parties put together 16,000 with Labour highest at 9,000
Makes no difference which of the parties within the 16,000 I vote for, the Tory still has double all the others put together. I will therefore vote Green as I would rather them get another vote to their overall number than anyone else.
Great in theory, no point in reality depending on your constituency. Constituency where I live;
Tory 33,000
All the other parties put together 16,000 with Labour highest at 9,000Makes no difference which of the parties within the 16,000 I vote for, the Tory still has double all the others put together
Understandable, but this election is likely to be more volatile than previous ones. Whilst a non-Tory win might be unlikely in this election, in your case assume everyone voted Labour, including fresh Tory defectors who went to LD (I know unlikely), add in the Brexit Party vote siphoning off some Con votes, its not impossible to see a 20,000 / 25,000 split.
Next time round that would not be a totally safe seat, meaning Cons would have to invest more time and money fighting for it. Do this all around the country, especially in seats that are closer and it would have a big impact.
I will therefore vote Green as I would rather them get another vote to their overall number than anyone else.
https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/eu.html
EU301 The present EU structures are fundamentally flawed.
EU310 The Green Party believes that the excessive influence of the Commission and its associated bodies compared to the Council and Parliament is both undemocratic and unaccountable.
The CJEU should be given a statute which defines and limits its powers
The CJEU should no longer be allowed to promote European integration in its judgements
EU401 The single market may be summarised as a massive restructuring of capital around a small number of large corporations and financial institutions
Understandable, but this election is likely to be more volatile than previous ones. Whilst a non-Tory win might be unlikely in this election, in your case assume everyone voted Labour, including fresh Tory defectors who went to LD (I know unlikely), add in the Brexit Party vote siphoning off some Con votes, its not impossible to see a 20,000 / 25,000 split.
Next time round that would not be a totally safe seat, meaning Cons would have to invest more time and money fighting for it. Do this all around the country, especially in seats that are closer and it would have a big impact.
This. Those 33,000 might all be staunch Remainers in which case they might go Lib Dem. They might be ultra hard core Brexiteers in which case they might go BNP to make the point. We don't know.
This election is totally un-predictable. We can be sure Brexit trumps party loyalty, we just don't know to what extent. No pundit knows how the seats are going to go and any tactical voting site relies on that.
Plus I suspect that people living in the constituency know more about where they live than the guy who wrote the tactical voting site. In my own constituency I've got a very shrewd idea where the local Tory/Labour people stand on Brexit plus there's a critical ongoing local issue where the LDs have played a blinder. The tactical voting sites know none of that.
...as for a Lib Dem/Con deal post election, it's fantasy. Cons are committed to Leave, Lib Dems are committed to remain. They've both kissed goodbye to 50pc of the vote. If either of them substantially budge they'll kiss goodbye to the other half. Neither have any wiggle room, they can't work together without committing electoral suicide.
After what happened last time I'd think the Lib Dems will be very glad to have a cast Iron excuse not to be part of a coalition Government.
A Tory party strategist has just been on Radio 4 saying that the Tory's think they're going to win this election by targetting 'Workington Man' - a disillioned Leave-supporting, traditionally Labour voter.
Clearly he's never actually been to Workington 😀
It's funny, but it's not
I fully expect a (narrow) Johnson victory where the country has voted to make itself poorer
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50219036
Also John McDonell got a pasting on R4 this morning over the brexit strategy
Meanwhile Cummings sitting on all the data on Labour leave voters that Kate Hoey got (stole with no repurcussions) for him on top of data they've been harvesting for the last 5 years
if you really oppose this Conservative government the most effective way of removing them
...is to vote Labour
Wow, that must have taken some big-time number crunching. What a waste of the internet.
The only realistic, unequivocal option for Remainers is the LibDems. If they vote as the Brexit Ref the LD should walk it.
But of course, they won't. But why not?
Vote for who you want, not to remove someone from power because of your personal dislike.
Please think again. Attempting to unseat Conservative MPs (even if you’ve voted Conservative in the past, before they became UKIP) is what this election is going to be all about.
if you really oppose this Conservative government the most effective way of removing them
…is to vote Labour
Wow, that must have taken some big-time number crunching. What a waste of the internet.
Whilst using the 2017 results as a basis is clearly flawed, if you can think of a better solution it would be great to hear it. That's not meant sarcastically by the way.
I hope Royston Smith is easy pickings for Labour this time, I was baffled how he kept his 2015 seat last time out in 2017 by 31 votes, when historically Itchen has been very pro-Labour.
I'd vote LD, but going on 2017 it would would be a wasted vote...
21773 Con
21742 Lab
1421 Lib
I’d vote LD, but going on 2017 it would would be a wasted vote…
21773 Con
21742 Lab
1421 Lib
Yeah this is the perfect example of where tactical voting is key.
Even if you're a hardcore LD voter, can you really see them getting an extra 21000 votes in just 2 years?
If all the LD voters bit the bullet this time round it would likely be a Labour win.
The alternative is a Tory win. That's the choice .
This. Those 33,000 might all be staunch Remainers in which case they might go Lib Dem. They might be ultra hard core Brexiteers in which case they might go BNP to make the point. We don’t know.
This election is totally un-predictable.
It is totally predictable in my constituency. The 33,000 will very likely be Brexiters seeing that it was a very high Brexit voting constituency too. There is no BNP or even UKIP candidate.
I would put a fair bit of money on Tory vote still being 30,000.
I might be wrong but the Remain, revoke camp looks a lot more organized and ready for a fight this time round.
I live in a key marginal consistuancy (Bury North), which regularly changes hands and where the last 2 elections went like this
2017:
Labour 25,683
Conservative 21,308
Liberal Democrat 912
2015:
Conservative 18,970
Labour 18,592
UKIP 5,595
Liberal Democrat 932
So I basically have to vote labour. Otherwise we get a Tory. interestingly, in a place that pretty much reflected the 52/48 referendum split of the vote, look what UKIP got in 2015. They didn't stand last time. I can see the Brexit party picking up a lot of votes, which you would think would suit labour. I hope so. Our (non-Corbynite) Labour MP is a great and effective constituency MP and a thoroughly decent bloke. Another reason I'll be voting Labour, despite their hopeless leader*
A LD vote would be a completely wasted vote
* The word is used figuratively in this instance and does not reflect any actual abilities in that department
https://policy.greenparty.org.uk/eu.html
/blockquote>outofbreath, not sure why you need to link to that. I am well aware of policies being a Green party member and all!. I also agree with the points you have picked out and I also agree with more policies in Green party manifesto than any other party. They unfortunately only get around 1,000 votes from the 50,000 where I live but if that can go up all the better.
I might be wrong but the Remain, revoke camp looks a lot more organized and ready for a fight this time round.
Brexit: People's Vote staff stage vote of 'no confidence' in chairman
Add to that the lack of parity between Labour and Lib Dems I'm not so sure sadly.
I might be wrong but the Remain, revoke camp looks a lot more organized and ready for a fight this time round.
Sad to say that you couldn't be more wrong.
Open warfare: the week the People’s Vote campaign imploded
Its presently a complete and utter shambles and is totally consumed with vicious, factional infighting.
Yet another example of the hopeless, completely detatched, self-serving attitude of our 'political class'
On a general housekeeping issue, when are the PPCs for each constituency announced? (Assuming the HoL waves the bill through.)
EDIT: Also, I realise some challengers to the incumbents are already known.
On a general housekeeping issue, when are the PPCs for each constituency announced?
Deadline to register is the 14th November so anytime up till then.
bet Johnson to announce he's gonna stand in a safe seat shortly
which tory rebels has he not allowed back in have the safest (leave voting) seat?
https://twitter.com/Steven_Swinford/status/1189495006320562176
I might be wrong but the Remain, revoke camp looks a lot more organized and ready for a fight this time round.
Agree. There's finally a clear remain/revoke rallying point for everyone to rally round.
Open warfare: the week the People’s Vote campaign imploded
The people's vote campaign has fallen apart *because* it's obsolete now there's an organised & credible remain option + an election. As a remainer there's no point in supporting or voting for a coin flip any more. The peoples vote campaign falling apart proves chris2lou's point, it doesn't debunk it.
Deadline to register is the 14th November so anytime up till then.
Oh right, cheers. Is that a date set in the bill or dependent on something else.
Agree. There’s finally a clear remain/revoke rallying point for everyone to rally round.
we are all in bubbles
remain voters organising themselves on social media (PV campaign less relevant)
dont assume leave voters arent as well, but cummings targetting them as well
it’s obsolete now there’s an organised & credible remain option + an election
Oh give it a rest. The libdems are not going to win the election. They are about as far from credible as it's possible to be. You know as well as the rest of us that there's only one route to remaining, and it isn't with Johnson as PM.
As kimbers says, it’s all very well remainers organising to vote tactically and collectively fist-bumping over it, but Leave groups are doing the same thing; and with, I suspect, a lot less ethics involved.
First tactical voting site I’ve seen for this election
Tactical voting 2019
That's an anti-Tory recommendation rather than an anti-Leave one. Not sure that's what folk are after for this election.
I meant, remain are better prepared and organized.
They know what they are up against.
Hancock was taken to bits this morning on national TV.
I might be wrong but the Remain, revoke camp looks a lot more organized and ready for a fight this time round.
Not sure I agree, as I'm already a Remoaner I obviously find the cogent points raised by similarly minded people enticing, but it's not me they need to convince...
The actual battle ground is "Independent social meeja activists", Russian Bots and mainstream media (papers and Telly) ratcheting up the Rhetoric.
Imagine Liberal Democrat wins the next GE to form the next govt. I don't mind for a good laugh but that will learn you 😆
Also if Labour or Lib Dem is in power will Scotland have any more excuse to gain independence? 😄
Isn't Alex Salmond facing some sort of court case soon? Why is he going to court? (can't be arsed to google the reasons) Anyway, not good publicity for SNP innit? 😀
I might be wrong but the Remain, revoke camp looks a lot more organized and ready for a fight this time round.
They are definitely more organised coz they have plenty to lose so will fight to the end. 😄
collectively fist-bumping over it,
Collectively fist bumping seems perfectly reasonable when the Leave vote is split between two parties and only one party is offering revoke.
How much fist bumping would Boris be doing if the BP quit and left him as the only place for leavers?
Collectively fist bumping seems perfectly reasonable when the Leave vote is split between two parties and only one party is offering revoke.
Fist-bumping whatever ... I just hope most of the politicians in the main parties get the sack.
Weak govt and weak opposition.
How much fist bumping would Boris be doing if the BP quit and left him as the only place for leavers?
Who is BP? Brexit Party?
No chance Brexit Party will quit in the North coz there will be a few surprises coming that way.
I know many working Labour voters here and they told they would vote for Labour on domestic issues but the current political climate they just want out. Non of them want to vote Labour at all let alone Lib Dem.
No chance Brexit Party will quit in the North coz there will be a few surprises coming that way.
Which would be good news for remainers...
I see only one hope for an outcome that might at least give a chance of another referendum and it involves to some extent people who won't be able to vote. I really think that the remain / second referendum camp needs to to be talking to the 16 - 25 year olds in the country to talk to their parents and even more importantly their grandparents and ask that in this election they put the long term interests of their future first. Just because 16 and 17 year olds don't have a vote doesn't mean they can't have an influence. We need a Gretta Thunberg to tell us older people that this really isn't just about what we want for the next few years.
Which would be good news for remainers…
I know the working class (in the North East) don't like Tories/Labour/Lib dem so will vote for Brexit Party.
I suspect many of the Labour supporters will go to Brexit Party as magic grandpa is not performing the magic for them. As for Lib dem don't even mention the name Jo Swinson as you either get a good laugh or get told off for mentioning her. (I did ask them about their views on Swinson and I got so much grief by just asking ...)
I see only one hope for an outcome that might at least give a chance of another referendum and it involves to some extent people who won’t be able to vote
If you go for a 2nd referendum before the 1st one is being implemented you might start a proper "civil war" ... I dare the politicians start a 2nd referendum before the 1st one is being implemented.
We need a Gretta Thunberg to tell us older people that this really isn’t just about what we want for the next few years.
I have spoken to a lot of older people and they think they are acting on behalf on younger people and they will be better out of the EU so not sure how that would work out.
We need a Gretta Thunberg to tell us older people that this really isn’t just about what we want for the next few years.
The kind of people who are prepared to listen to 16 year olds are the type of people who'd never vote for Brexit or the Tories anyway.
And the kind of people who voted for Brexit and the Tories won't be listening to 16 year olds s they think they should be doing national service in the army, reaserting the British empire, or some other misty-eyed neo-colonial bollocks
This country is a ****ing shambles, the biggest change to the country for ever should not be decided by a ****ing post code lottery voting system. Thats not democracy!
My vote will basically be wasted once again....
This country is a * shambles, the biggest change to the country for ever should not be decided by a * post code lottery voting system. Thats not democracy!
My vote will basically be wasted once again….
Just vote for what you like then sit back to let the nature takes its course.
What seems very worrying at the moment is the amount of MP's who are standing down. If you look at the names, they seem the half-decent ones
It seems like more and more moderates are being driven out of both main parties, or just giving up
If we think the MP's we're got at the moment are bad, no matter who 'wins' the next election, the standard of our elected repesentatives looks like being considerably worse after December.
Both front benches are already stuffed with incompetent, idealogical nodding-dogs who are there purely for their capacity to unquestioningly worship at the cult of both 'leaderships'.
My constituency has a Con majority of 22,000 🤮 - it’s hardly worth voting
Brexit was 50/50
Is that a date set in the bill or dependent on something else.
I think, but aint 100% certain, its part either of normal election law or just standard practice. Day of election - x days to allow for all the associated admin to be completed especially postal ballots.
If you go for a 2nd referendum before the 1st one is being implemented you might start a proper “civil war” … I dare the politicians start a 2nd referendum before the 1st one is being implemented.
Actually of course I should have said 3rd referendum, as the last one was overturning the referendum of 1975. I'm not sure how you can oppose further referendums in principal if you think the second one in 2016 was legitimate.
<span style="font-size: 12.8px;">And the kind of people who voted for Brexit and the Tories won’t be listening to 16 year olds</span>
My hope is that it might be different if those 16 year olds are their grandchildren. I'm not talking about massed 16 year olds on the streets in a general plea to the population of voters but individually sitting down with the people they know asking them to think carefully about how they vote.
Not a hope in hell. If the current situation hasn’t persuaded them to reconsider, a teenager certainly won’t be able to.
you might start a proper “civil war”
1) Don’t worry, we’ll fight to keep you out of the internment camps the English Nationalist side in that imaginary war will be setting up for you.
2) This is just the same stuff that “the other thread” is full of. Take it over there.
Where can I look at a full list of MPs standing down?
I’m not sure how you can oppose further referendums in principal if you think the second one in 2016 was legitimate.
Indeed. It's an argument that Leavers will employ with equal validity the day after a second ref. (If they lose which is only a 50/50 shout.)
Ergo referendums are not the solution.
Oh give it a rest. The libdems are not going to win the election. They are about as far from credible as it’s possible to be.
I remember a lot of people saying that about Trump in the US and BoJo here.
I remember a lot of people saying that about Trump in the US and BoJo here.
This.
...and there's a clear reason why the LibDems could win this time:
Leave vote is split.
Revoke vote is not split.
In 2017, we were 49.2% blue, 43.5% red. Ukip, Lib dems and greens all lost their deposit.
Guess that makes it pretty simple.
I just wish someone had offered up an ammendment suggesting that if the GE fails to show a single party majority, it would trigger a referendum. Otherwise, nothing is actually going to change.