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Yep, John Major was a lot better than I thought at the time. I had even more hatred for tories back then in my marxist youth which may have clouded my judgement.
it's a bit odd that everyone including the dailyfail (it was top of the page) reported this mornings GMB fiasco and it didn't even make the news feed of the BBC (that i could see)! :/
this is their summary
What's happened so far this morning?
Politicians have been dashing around the country this morning as they look to make the most of the final day of campaigning:
Boris Johnson is piling on the metaphors to hammer home his core campaign message of "get Brexit done". He made an "oven-ready pie" in Derbyshire, saying it was a symbol for his deal, and began the day "delivering" to voters - milk, that is. He says the contest at this election "could not be tighter".
Earlier, Conservative colleague Michael Gove defended the PM's response to a photo of a sick boy who was forced to sleep on a hospital floor and insisted his boss was an empathetic individual
Jeremy Corbyn's first stop of the day was in Glasgow, where he argued Labour's campaign had been "positive" while his opponents had been "negative". He urged voters to back Labour to bring about real change.
But 15 former Labour MPs have urged voters not to back Mr Corbyn, citing his record on anti-Semitism and "extremism". The group includes several outspoken critics of the leader, such as Ian Austin and Louise Ellman.Lib Dem leader Jo Swinson told party supporters in London that the last few hours would be "vital" as people were still making up their minds. She insisted Mr Johnson "doesn't deserve your vote".
SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon, on the campaign trail in Edinburgh, said a "Tory victory can be stopped", adding that in Scotland the SNP were the main challenger to the Conservatives. She called "get Brexit done" a "con".
Brexit Party leader Nigel Farage says he fears a Tory majority would see "Brexit sold out" - he's gone much colder on Boris Johnson's deal in recent days. He also says his party are challenging Labour "quite strongly". You can see the latest opinion poll trends with the BBC's poll tracker
And last but not least, with trust a big theme of this campaign, Plaid Cymru leader Adam Price is using its final day to publish a draft law which would make lying by politicians a criminal offence.
Local polling to us is showing the seat is going to go Tory. 4,500 majority for our present Labour MP looks like being overturned and we’ll be getting some Tory sock-puppet instead
you mean the local councillor who is the conservative candidate
the labour candidate despite loving his picture being taken with all and sundry still hasn't put an image with him and Corbyn anywhere into his campaign (does one exist?). Notorious for jumping on any local campaign/ issue to claim he sorted it. Puts his kids into a campaign video puff piece, etc etc
If he does get dumped out the local councillor who works in his office might have time to do some activities related to his office rather than being his bag man/ photographer etc
it's just appeared on the feed ! only a few hours late
Klunk - this morning's sweary bit has just appeared on BBC news website.
Quandary time for me. Bojo is a complete bellend but I just can't bring myself to vote for corbyn mainly because of the union backing.
Shall we run a book on when the first strike will be if Labour get in.
You do know about the regular rail drivers strikes that are already happening under “BoJo” and Grayling and co? Yes?
And when did you last talk to a “Junior” Doctor @sargey ?
lol, aye, strikes only happen under a labour government!
Never really understood the objection to unions by ‘normal’ people, at least. I mean sure, if you’re a mill owner, or the owner of British Leyland and prioritise having a solid gold Rolls Royce over working conditions, quality of your product and R&D, then yes, but anyone else, nope. Unions are pretty much the only check and balance against worker exploitation, as evidenced by zero hour contracts and the like.
Long memories of public services grinding to a halt due to strikes. On the other side, better funding and appreciation of public services might mean fewer, not more, strikes… and you won’t be getting that from Johnson and his people once they have a safe majority.
Shall we run a book on when the first strike will be if Labour get in.
not sure which planet you've been on lately, but Rail Workers, Nurses, Cleaners and university lecturers have all been on strike just in the last week alone.
I had a pretty poor impression of union bosses in the 80s - jaguar-driving, chain-smoking, fat cats is the vision I had on the telly. I was in early teens and impressionable - it took a while for me to see that this was a stunt to make me feel like Trade Unions were corrupt and past their sell-by date. I didn't know much about the history of the tory party then.
Shall we run a book on when the first strike will be if Labour get in.
Won't be too hard, SW trains are already on strike, so 13th Dec has my bet...
I suppose its memories of doing my homework in the seventies with power cuts that sticks in my mind.
Just ignore me (everyone else does) and I will continue to mull over who to vote for but for the first time in 41years of being able to vote I don't think I can put an x in any parties box.
on that basis, don't vote for the party you want, vote against the one you want least and use your vote tactically. Don't waste it or not use it at all.
@sargey, please, PLEASE vote Labour. Hold your nose, look the other way, I accept that Corbyn is damaged goods. But at least Labour is the right direction. Boris does NOT have yours or my or anyone other than his own and his friends interests at heart.
No one is ignoring you @Sargey, and an awful lot of people feel the same as you. I have lots of negative stuff to say about all the possibilities myself! The party that now carries the “Conservative” name needs to be stopped though… they’ve been careful to avoid any detail about what they want to do once they get a majority… but just pick any of the new cabinet ministers and read what they have said and written in the past (rather than their careful non committal stances and comments this year). They are a serious threat. Vote to try and deny them your seat. Please.
I will continue to mull over who to vote for but for the first time in 41years of being able to vote I don’t think I can put an x in any parties box.
Well there is that in terms of it being an election run on lies, spin, misinformation and soundbites. Coupled with the worst Government in living memory, an opposition that barely exists and a completely divided country (rich/poor, leave/remain or whatever division you want to set) and "none of the above" seems like a good option.
Failing that though, I cannot understand how anyone could look at the state of the UK now and go "ooh, 9 years of the Tories, hasn't it been great, let's have another 5 years of that!"
Hold your nose, look the other way, I accept that Corbyn is damaged goods. But at least Labour is the right direction. Boris does NOT have yours or my or anyone other than his own and his friends interests at heart.
Very much this.
There are two buses you can get on.
Both are driven by maniacs.
One of those buses is facing directly off a cliff and the other isn't...it's going broadly in the direction you want and that driver is likely to be forced to ask an actual grownup* to help him steer.
*i'm voting for the grownup because that's an option available to me that might not be to you
I will continue to mull over who to vote for but for the first time in 41years of being able to vote I don’t think I can put an x in any parties box.
well that's fair enough, you're certainly not alone!
IMO it will either be a full Tory government, or a hung parliament with the Tories as the biggest party. Those are the only 2 options, and the latter is slightly less disagreeable, so I'll be pointing my vote in that direction. I'd recommend you do too, but I agree it's hardly an inspiring choice....
I'm voting Labour purely for the reason of wanting a hung Parliament. There is no danger of a Corbyn led majority government but there is a very real danger of a Johnson led one. Only one party has the potential to form a majority government and for me the most important thing in this election is that neither of them and neither party have a majority. The only hope for this country is a situation in which both parties realise that there is no way forward without compromise.
Never really understood the objection to unions by ‘normal’ people, at least.
Unions have been awesome, and hopefully will be around for a very long time. (I've worked in Unionized and non-Unionized businesses and conditions/culture/respect for staff were far better in the Unionized ones.)
...but Mrs OOB is in a unionized job and the flaw (if there is a flaw) is that they've negotiated her a stonking great salary based on years service. Which is great. But she's so expensive now she can't move jobs within her own industry because nobody can afford to hire a new person with that length of service. ie Unions are *so* good at negotiating terms and conditions that they can end up pricing their staff out of the market.
The 4 day week is similar. The government can force my company to give me a 4 day week at full pay and it sounds great. But what will actually happen is I'll no longer be affordable and they'll just outsource my Job abroad. In theory the government have negotiated me a day of every week for life. In fact they've just got my job outsourced. Maybe negotiating a better deal is better managed by individuals who have a good grasp of what they think they can get away with.
I can't help but wonder if train guards are the same, maybe their Union have negotiated them such a good deal that it actually makes sense to automate trains and make them all redundant.
We hear a lot about not getting into a race to the bottom, fair enough but the only thing worse than winning a race to the bottom is losing it!
If you like Labour types of policies but don't like Corbyn then Green party is the obvious choice. That is who I vote for but then my vote makes no difference anyway unfortunately.
Meh, too late
“ooh, 9 years of the Tories, hasn’t it been great, let’s have another 5 years of that!”
Have you thought through the implications of a 4 day week?
I can’t help but wonder if train guards are the same, maybe their Union have negotiated them such a good deal that it actually makes sense to automate trains and make them all redundant.
This point truly highlights the elephant in the room. It boils down to whether you view people or money as more important. What is the point in any organisation be it public, or private? Is it JUST to deliver VFM to the shareholders (in which case, in this age of burgeoning automation, supercharged by AI) 95% of us will face the scrap heap in our lifetime, or is it to provide a service to humans, whilst delivering a decent quality of life to it’s workforce?
I don’t know the answer; it’s a philosophical one rather than a practical one anyway, but I know which sounds more palatable.
Vince sides with Corbyn (sort of)
Well not really:
That is why I am out campaigning for Liberal Democrat gains where possible – Esher and Walton, Wokingham and Wimbledon to name just a few – and supporting tactical voting for Remain where necessary.
I lost any faith I had in Unions while at a tribunal where I was a witness supposedly on the same side as the Union.
They tried to throw my fellow claimees under the bus, contradicted themselves and outright lied about the situation in the company before it folded.
Despite their efforts, we won. Thanks to good work by the legal team we paid for because the union wouldn’t
GMB-don’t waste your money
Concept of unionised workforce trashed by single poor experience with single union, that still won.
Okay (literally) boomer.
Have you thought through the implications of a 4 day week?
Yes, increased productivity while at the same time workers working less hours and enjoying their lives more.
I doubt many people's words on their deathbed are "I wish I spent more more hours of my life working for company x"
Power cuts affected everyone, so they had high profile. There are worse things happening right now, under Tories, but if you're not sick or have money then you don't see it so you don't care.
Quandary time for me. Bojo is a complete bellend but I just can’t bring myself to vote for corbyn mainly because of the union backing.
If you vote Labour some rich people will whine about being slightly less rich. If you vote Tory people will die because of it.
It boils down to whether you view people or money as more important.
No.
People are more important than money but people's work has a market rate.
Have you thought through the implications of a 4 day week?
Yes, increased productivity while at the same time workers working less hours and enjoying their lives more.
I doubt many people’s words on their deathbed are “I wish I spent more more hours of my life working for company x”
That'll be a "no" then! 🙂
Nobody is lying about the “Inclusive Ownership Fund”
Oh, it exists and is in the manifesto, which wasn't published when the FT did their 'analysis'.
The lie was and is that they were going to steal shares from your pension fund. That was never true yet you were terrified of it happening you claim to have moved your funds.
So can you show where it says they are going to steal shares in private ownership, or is that a lie? Since you moved your funds, you either didn't know it was a lie, or you went to great lengths to propogate the lie.
People are more important than money but people’s work has a market rate.
That’s a very disingenuous statement. What happens to the (ever increasing) pool of people who get priced out of the market value by machines or outsourcing?
If your job could be outsourced because of a 20% increase in costs that a four day week would cost, why can’t it be outsourced now? I’m sure potential savings would be greater than 20% if you look east?
Admittedly this is a far bigger problem than we can hope small minded domestic politics will be able to solve. It’s probably going to be the problem that brings humanity to its knees within the next century.
Have you thought through the implications of a 4 day week?
3 days off?
Four day week great idea. Probably not achievable for many NHS staff, or certainly not a 32hr week.
If your job could be outsourced because of a 20% increase in costs that a four day week would cost, why can’t it be outsourced now? I’m sure potential savings would be greater than 20% if you look east?
Already has. 75pc of people in my role are in Eastern Europe now. That's why I'm not mad keen on the cost of 'me' going up by 20pc while I'm no longer available for a whole day every week.
If I thought I could sensibly negotiate that kind of deal, I already would have!
If your job could be outsourced because of a 20% increase in costs that a four day week would cost, why can’t it be outsourced now? I’m sure potential savings would be greater than 20% if you look east?
So I work 10 hours a day for 4 days, but my employer now saves 20% on his accommodation costs because he only needs office space for 80% of his total workforce by carefully scheduling. Studies have shown that employees are more productive too. Furthermore, you arrived less-stressed at work because there's 20% less traffic on the road. But then that's using facts and reasoning...
Oh, it exists and is in the manifesto, which wasn’t published when the FT did their ‘analysis’.
The lie was and is that they were going to steal shares from your pension fund. That was never true yet you were terrified of it happening you claim to have moved your funds.
So can you show where it says they are going to steal shares in private ownership, or is that a lie? Since you moved your funds, you either didn’t know it was a lie, or you went to great lengths to propogate the lie.
If you take 10pc of something away, as opposed to buying it, the existing owners lose 10pc of it. HTH.
Unions are good for business. Just ask BP.
Had the workforce on Deepwater Horizon been unionised do you think they would have carried on working in a way that ultimately led to their deaths?
How much money did BP lose on Macondo?
I've worked offshore in the non-unionised UK sector and the heavily unionised Norwegian sector. I've been involved in operations in the UK sector where the operators were acting dangerously and I didn't say anything because I didn't fancy ending my career. I'm not proud of it.
I've never even been asked to work in unsafe ways in the Norwegian sector. If I was I would have no problem saying, 'Nope, put me on the next chopper. I'm off to call my union rep and tell him you want to drill into the reservoir section with an ROV umbilical tangled in the BOP pod lines.'
Probably not achievable for many NHS staff, or certainly not a 32hr week.
I have to wonder what sort of contract length Labour think is acceptable. Banning zero hour contracts and full time contracts, I wonder how wide the permissable slot will be?
If you take 10pc of something away, as opposed to buying it, the existing owners lose 10pc of it. HTH.
No, it doesn't 'H' because we've done this to death - no-one's said they are 'taking it away' without paying for it. And yet, you keep on about it this thing that isn't happening like you are a Tory propagandist or something.
Banning zero hour contracts and full time contracts, I wonder how wide the permissable slot will be?
OOB, you’re being deliberately obtuse. You know that the objection to ‘zero hour’ contracts is not the actual hours worked, but rather the ability the exploit those workers and prevent them from working hours elsewhere, as well as the misrepresentation of these workers as ‘employed’ in statistics. Similarly, the four day week idea is actually just a policy of governance supporting an improvement in work life balance for the majority of people, paid for by an increase in automation etc, rather than the fruits of automation going straight into shareholders pockets.
No, it doesn’t ‘H’ because we’ve done this to death – no-one’s said they are ‘taking it away’ without paying for it. And yet, you keep on about it this thing that isn’t happening like you are a Tory propagandist or something.
How is it going to work then @molgrips ?
No, it doesn’t ‘H’ because we’ve done this to death – no-one’s said they are ‘taking it away’ without paying for it.
They are not paying for the shares.
Here's the policy:
It's p60. Or search for "Inclusive Ownership Fund".
(I fear I'm being trolled so I won't be replying to any posts on Inclusive Ownership Fund unless the post quotes the text that says the shares will be paid for in which case I will acknowledge that I failed to spot it and apologise.)
They are going to buy 10% using taxpayers money, and give it back to the taxpayers
Obviously
It’s the circular economy
You know that the objection to ‘zero hour’ contracts is not the actual hours worked,
That may be the objection, but the *policy* is to ban zero hours contracts. I've quoted the text before but the links above.
Similarly, the four day week idea is actually just a policy of governance supporting an improvement in work life balance for the majority of people, paid for by an increase in automation etc, rather than the fruits of automation going straight into shareholders pockets.
Quote it then so we can decide for ourselves.
When Microsoft introduced a four-day week, productivity increased by 40 per cent.
A friend of mine worked a 9 day fortnight with an engineering consultancy back in the seventies, so these ideas are not new. Not forgetting that back in the old days we used to "go to work down t' mill, fourteen hours a day, week-in week-out". Things have moved on.
Great quote on Radio 4 from Steve Coogan
Yes, Partridge would have voted leave because Alan is like one of those people who is very confident.
There are lots of people in government actually who are very like Alan Partridge in that they are super confident and not that well informed.
Alan Partridge, his points of view and attitude is influenced by the likes of Boris Johnson.
As Max Hastings said, Boris Johnson thinks he is Winston Churchill but he is more like Alan Partridge.
Did I miss the bit where Labour have said they will just steal that 10% and not pay for it?
Did I miss the bit where Labour have said they will just steal that 10% and not pay for it?
i've got a friend who is a nursing sister at Leeds Hospital who says they will....
Quote it then so we can decide for ourselves.
https://www.ippr.org/research/publications/women-automation-and-equality
Is an article cited by;
Which is the press release from McDonnell announcing the policy that we are discussing.
Why are people still arguing about labour policy ?
At best they'll be in a minority government & will struggle to get much through beyond a 2nd ref and a loosening of budgets
The lib Dems were burnt badly by Tories last time & SNP have their own agends
Of far more concern is Johnson's likely majority, a decade of divisive brexit talks, more grinding austerity & more lies than ever
Did I miss the bit where Labour have said they will just steal that 10% and not pay for it?
The cost of buying the shares is not in the costing document (Grey book) so they will not be paying for the shares.
(Yes, I shouldn't have replied, my bad.)
At best they’ll be in a minority government & will struggle to get much through beyond a 2nd ref and a loosening of budgets
...and an Indyref within the first year.
I don't accept the logic that they can't get a majority. To know that you'd need detailed knowledge of the seats, which doesn't exist.
Woohoo GE tomorrow 😀
Ready for late night watching election result.
Of far more concern is Johnson’s likely majority, a decade of divisive brexit talks, more grinding austerity & more lies than ever
this
See there are tories, then there are bad tories, but this lot? A bunch of cynical lying evil compasionless manipulative toss buckets. They will do nothing for you.
VOTE TACTICALLY
I don’t accept the logic that they can’t get a majority.
26/1 with the bookies at the moment. Stick a couple of quid on it
I stuck a tenner on a hung parliament last time out at 5/1. I've stuck a tenner on the same this time around but with labour getting more seats than the Tories but no majority. Same odds - 5/1
Admittedly I put that on a few weeks ago before Grandad phoned in his election campaign, but you never know....
Right... on to the actual election night practicalities...
Who's taken Friday off so that they can stay up and watch the results come in? Fess up... who's as sad and tragic as me? 😀
I might buy a pie and chips and watch The Strictly Come Voting Results Show.
Doubt I'll stay up all night though.
Me! To be fair I was made redundant a week ago so I can spare the time. Now's a good time to do it.Probably last until 3am though. Should have a fair idea by then. We need to find out when raab has his portillo moment? I'll deffo stay up for that ( and probably Johnson and mogg too)
Binners you lightweight
Stay up with the boys and go in with the men.
Looks like there are some good options, telly-wise.
Russell Howard is doing his show on Sky from ten onwards, and channel 4's results show is being done by Rylan which would suggest they're not planning on being too reverential
Who’s taken Friday off so that they can stay up and watch the results come in? Fess up… who’s as sad and tragic as me? 😀
No off for me on Friday so no joy.
Mrs is counting so might stay up until their results
Or might fall asleep on the sofa
one of those 2 is more likely
I'll probably go to sleep as normal cos it takes too long for the results to come in, then in an agitated state wake up at about 2.30 and go downstairs to watch it.
I'll watch it on Catch up over the christmas holidays. I'll try to avoid spoilers till then.
Is this the point where we need a post about just how tiring the late night will be for magic grandad? he's getting on a bit, you know.
I will be off on Friday because I already work a 4 day week, some of us are open minded to new ideas while others are left behind voting tory.
(I don't actually but I did take every Friday off for 20 weeks over the summer autumn and guess what, I got exactly the same amount of stuff done)
As a self-employed person I fundamentally objet to the principle of a 4 day week.
Why the hell should I be forced to increase the hours I work?! Bloody communists!! 😉
26/1 with the bookies at the moment. Stick a couple of quid on it
Having never been near a bookies or a betting website in my life, what's the best (easiest) way of doing that?
Who’s taken Friday off so that they can stay up and watch the results come in? Fess up… who’s as sad and tragic as me?
This could prove to be deeply ironic. I am off on Friday as it is the 10th day of my 9 day fortnight. Whether I stay up may depend on the results from the exit polls at 10pm on Thursday and how many beers I sink to drown my sorrows.
Having never been near a bookies or a betting website in my life, what’s the best (easiest) way of doing that?
Any bookies will have an app. Watch any sporting event and you'll be advertised about 900 different app options.
Its terrifyingly easy
Remember... when the fun stops... stop 😉
People don't realise that 100 or so years ago - it was normal to work 7 days a week!
We should be working less and enjoying the benefits of productivity.
Exit polls at 10pm
I was planning a night ride , but weather looks from
May do it anyway
Next day is work Xmas lunch, which will I suspect be a commiseration as much as a celebration, I'm sure we'll raise a toast to 'fk borris' tho.
Considering a tenner on a labour minority tho !
7.00 Vote with Labour Border Terrier at my side. Drop GF train-station
8:00 Bit of helping out at the local Labour Party - maybe driving people to the polling stations.
9:30 Go to Brexit coffee shop to tell the owner he's confused about free broadband again.
10:00 Then to work for a bit. (work for myself but mainly on twitter.)
18:00 Election meal out. Maybe a medium-red steak. Certainly not bleu though.
20:00 Settle down with the telly flipping between channels/twitter/here.
22:00 Exit Poll time - make or break. See if Dr Moderate is correct!
22:15 Give or take a stuffing from Binners depending on result.
22:30 Cup of Coffee
23:30 Laugh at Buckethead and watch those early fast results come in. Watch the TV pundits over-analyse the first results and try to predict things. It's early days yet. Back to the studio or community centre guff.
23:45 Cheese and biscuits.
12:00 A brandy or two.
01:00 Go over to pistonheads to watch all the people who are leaving the country sound-off. Check to see if Katie Hopkins is booked on a plane yet.
02:00 Bed for a bit - but awake checking Twitter all night. (Indigestion - nervous election toilet trips with phone.)
06:00 Get up - be happy or deflated.
Sounds like a reasonable agenda Rone.
This has just been on the Guardian website about Raab. Given how bloody-minded we are as a nation, please, please let this encourage voters in his constituency to boot him out
Losing candidates standing in Dominic Raab’s former constituency may not be invited to deliver speeches after the declaration as council officials try to manage overwhelming interest from the world’s media and the public.
The electoral authorities overseeing the count for Esher and Walton have said they will only guarantee that the winner will be able to address the crowd assembled at the count. An Elmbridge Borough Council spokesperson said: “If the winning candidate would like to make a short speech, following the result declaration, that is fine.”
This decision represents a U-turn, sources close to candidates say. The returning officer’s staff had initially warned on Tuesday that they would break with convention and stop any statements from a stage at the count at Sandown Racecourse.
Raab is one of the big names who could be unseated in Thursday’s election, and provide Friday with a so-called ‘Portillo moment”, according to new analysis by YouGov released on Tuesday.