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I am making a personal apology for last week describing the PM as looking tired and emotional and saying he’s not drinking.
News 101: Sky TV host says something offensive about your candidate. Hardly anyone sees it live, it receives very little press.
Sky TV host repeats something offensive about your candidate attached to an apology. Hardly anyone sees it live, but it goes viral on Twitter and receives plenty of press as a result.
Win!
I certainly hadn't heard or seen reported Boulton's original comments.
(Whoever leaked it is an ass, however.)
(Whoever leaked it is an ass, however.)
Leaked what? (Sorry, I'm a bit slow today.)
Has someone leaked the inquiry into Russian meddling?
Russians leaked it just to **** with us
NB no idea what CF is on about
From the Anti Defamation League no less:
The overwhelming usage of the “okay” hand gesture today is still its traditional purpose as a gesture signifying assent or approval. As a result, someone who uses the symbol cannot be assumed to be using the symbol in either a trolling or, especially, white supremacist context unless other contextual evidence exists to support the contention. Since 2017, many people have been falsely accused of being racist or white supremacist for using the “okay” gesture in its traditional and innocuous sense.
Other, similar-seeming hand gestures have also been mistakenly assumed to have white supremacist connotations as a result of the “okay” hoax. One of these is the so-called “Circle Game,” in which people attempt to trick each other into looking at an okay-like hand gesture made somewhere below the waist.
https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/okay-hand-gesture
The key here is context. Beyond seeing that person we know nothing about doing it what context do we have that allows us to say he is undoubtedly trolling or signalling white supremacist intent?
Ed, that's a particularly nasty side you are beginning to show.
NB no idea what CF is on about
I'm more worried by the fact that he's on the phone chatting bantering to Zuul the Gatekeeper.
But then again, it's hardly a revelation that the majority of Corbyn's MPs can't stand him. Even the idea that Corbyn is going down like a cup of cold sick outside metropolitan areas is not entirely surprising.
Beaten to it.
Tories will make huge capital out of this.
She is just another trained politician in the art of not actually answering any questions and not particularly likable.
Trained politician? You're having a laugh aren't you? People will warm to her precisely because she isn't an oxbridge trained politician, and a real person who can relate to normal people. She's also very straight talking, which people will also appreciate. All she requires is to be a little less abrasive.
before it hopefully see’s some sense and limps back to the centre ground and tries to restore some credibility
You mean go crawling back to the likes of Murdoch and the other billionaire press barons and beg their forgiveness? The day that happens is the day the labour party becomes a pointless non-entity.
Party leaders don't need to be likeable; they need to be credible - relatable would be a bonus.
Greg Barker/ Baker a tory activist is the leaker.
The day that happens is the day the labour party becomes a pointless non-entity.
Hey Daz.... I hate to break it to you, but...erm.... the labour party is presently a completely pointless non-entity. Just ask anyone at Tory HQ who've never had it easier. They don't even have to try. Jezza does their job for them.
Unless, of course, 'the point' is waving placards outside the common room, retweeting stuff from the Canary and signing internet petitions while wallowing in your own sanctimonious piousness. They're good at that. World-beaters.
The labour party will have to return to something resembling the real world at some point, just like it did in 97 under Blair. Though you and the rest of the sixth formers clearly want to see another decade+ of completely unopposed tory rule before thats allowed to happen. Hey it'll be the 80's all over again, seeing as it was so ****ing great last time around
Ed, that’s a particularly nasty side you are beginning to show.
When the same person is reguarly sexist, thinks it's OK to use the circle gesture and the JD expression it's not nasty to point it out.
The member in question has been around for only 4 weeks, until there is any eveidence to the contrary I'll take his stories with a pinch of salt, object to his sexism and argue against the use of JD and the circle symbol being "innocent" on 10/12/2019.
The key here is indeed context. The context of the QT interview was one of racists being racist. The context of this forum is one of an Internet in which alt-right trolls and bots are doing their utmost to influence an election result. If you think STW is immune, think again.
Hey Daz…. I hate to break it to you, but…erm…. the labour party is presently a completely pointless non-entity”Unless ‘the point’ is waving placards outside the common room and signing internet petitions
In your extemely distorted world view.
To others it's very much going in the correct direction.
Haven't seen Rory recently - Wasn't he your conduit of confused Brexitality statesmenship?
Or Chuka - you liked him, he's a big hit with his broken centrist compass.
The labour party will have to return to something resembling the real world at some point, just like it did in 97 under Blair.
Err no. Not to suite you it won't.
You can vote libdem.
Morning comrade
But it is okay to use the circle gesture! I even quoted the relevant passage from people with a hell of a lot more knowledge and skin in the game than you do.
Gutted to see last night that my constituency is being predicted to go tory in the election. We've had a really hard-working (or so it seems) labour MP who has been vocal in Westminster for the benefits of the area and she is predicted to be beaten by a girl who has been outed as a racist and someone who has publically put on her facebook that anyone on benefits should be shot.
Labour can stick in their current direction as long as they like (I support most of their policies), but until they find a way to get into power it is meaningless. I don't think that waiting till next GE after the brexit hits the fan and everyone feels the squeeze will make a blind bit of difference as so man people equally blame Corbyn for what is/has happened.
On that note, the tories plan to repeal the fixed term parliment act - what replaces it or do we go back to the previous way?
I've listened to the Jonathan Ashworth recording on Guido Fawkes and I'm not sure it's going to do Labour much harm: Firstly many people have already postal voted. Secondly the big problem for the Torys is if it looks like a done deal people just aren't going to turn out and vote Tory. ie: This 'banter' just increases the chances that unenthusiastic voters who are reluctantly willing to vote Blue to stop Corbyn won't turn out because they think Corbyn will lose anyway.
You can vote libdem.
Labour's campaign slogan since 2015.
Interesting times - a claim on social media that the photo of the little lad at LGI was 'staged' allegedly came from a hacked account, propagated onwards by a large number of low-follower accounts.
Despite the claim that the photo was staged having been acknowledged as false, it has continued to spread on both Facebook and Twitter, largely through individual low-follower accounts cutting and pasting the original text to share with their friends.(Guardian)
If someone in the civil service has a copy of the Russian Interference report and cares about their country, now would be a good time.
Haven't listened to the recording but seems like a sting - subject, timing, Ashworth's position and the discussion being recorded.
Having said that Ashworth was incredibly naive - Baron Barker of Battle is a committed tory, an election is looming, NHS is key focus, Ashworth is shadow health sec; what could possibly go wrong?
Hope oob is right about this having limited impact.
Cleverley was onto this quickly this morning; briefed by CCHQ?
We’ve had a really hard-working (or so it seems) labour MP who has been vocal in Westminster for the benefits of the area and she is predicted to be beaten by a girl who has been outed as a racist and someone who has publically put on her facebook that anyone on benefits should be shot.
Labour can stick in their current direction as long as they like (I support most of their policies), but until they find a way to get into power it is meaningless.
Solution - for Labour to out-racist the Tories?
martin hutch - editor of yorkshire post has jumped on that quickly and responded directly to some woman who contacted him trotting out the fake news allegation.
Google "circle gesture Question Time", Squirrelking
https://metro.co.uk/video/question-time-audience-member-caught-making-circle-game-gesture-2066646/
They all state that since 2017 the gesture is associated with race hate. You can't posssibly ignore that, Squirrelking, nor could the guy on Question Time when he used it in a debate in which Brexit (with all that implies in terms of xenophobia) is one of the main issues in people's minds. Nor could the JD expression user.
Most Labour MPs thinking Jeremy Corbyn is hopeless isn’t really news, is it?
Seeing as the overwhelming majority of them declined to support him in a vote of no confidence, that sort of sends out that message
BBC Politics Live.....'Mr Ashworth says the comments weren't serious and that he was trying to convince the person who recorded the conversation, a friend who is also a Conservative activist, that Tory attack lines were working'.
A conservative activist?
Try again. Former tory gov minister; now a tory life peer is more than just an activist.
Add to this 'In February 2019, Barker took a leave of absence from the House of Lords upon accepting an executive chairmanship position within En+ Group, a Russian company linked to the Russian oligarch on the U.S. sanctions list Oleg Deripaska. Barker was credited with having helped the Russian company to have the U.S. sactions lifted earlier that year, for which he was awarded a bonus of about 3 million to 4 million pounds ($3.9 million to $5.2 million) that he described as "relatively modest".
Deripaska usually described as being loyal and close to Putin.
Ashworth should choose his 'friends' more carefully.
Most Labour MPs thinking Jeremy Corbyn is hopeless isn’t really news, is it?
Seeing as the overwhelming majority of them declined to support him in a vote of no confidence, that sort of sends out that message
They're the same as you binners - they think he's unpopular therefore they are scared to show support - it's playground stuff.
FWIW I don't know anyone that ever took that white power thing seriously, obviously my generation are just dog whistle racists in your world and we are the ones out of touch.
I'll take the word of the Anti Defamation League over theirs thanks.
They don’t think he’s unpopular. They know he is.
He has the lowest approval rating of any opposition leader ever recorded. And when you see that that includes Iain Duncan Smith, that’s quite some achievement
They’re not scared to show support, they’d just like a leader who was slightly more popular than a fart in a lift
The labour party will have to return to something resembling the real world at some point, just like it did in 97 under Blair. Though you and the rest of the sixth formers clearly want to see another decade+ of completely unopposed tory rule before thats allowed to happen. Hey it’ll be the 80’s all over again, seeing as it was so ****ing great last time around
Trained politician? You’re having a laugh aren’t you? People will warm to her precisely because she isn’t an oxbridge trained politician, and a real person who can relate to normal people. She’s also very straight talking, which people will also appreciate. All she requires is to be a little less abrasive.
In the interviews I have seen her in over the last month she has avoided questions in exactly the same way as 'trained' politicians and was not straight talking in any way whatsoever.
I put her into the same category as Swinson. The more people see her the less they will like her.
Party leaders don’t need to be likeable; they need to be credible – relatable would be a bonus.
Which one is is Johnson - credible or relatable?
He is likely to be winning.
I’ll take the word of the Anti Defamation League over uninformed idiocy thanks.
Selective quoting and understanding.
Err no. Not to suite you it won’t.
You can vote libdem.
FFS. Pushing people away Labour still?
People. Please vote Labour. Ignore the cultists. They are few but vocal.
On that note, the tories plan to repeal the fixed term parliment act – what replaces it or do we go back to the previous way?
There will be no need for future elections. Democracy stopped in 2016, remember?
My posts^^^ re Ashworth; wrong to refer to greg barker - it was greg baker.
Ah well.....
Still naive behaviour by Ashworth.
They’re not scared to show support,
Oh give over. We all know that not a single one of the blairite ****** were ever going to accept the fact that they stupidly handed over control of the party to the membership. And since then they’ve done everything they can to get it back, even stooping to smearing a lifelong anti-racism campaigner as an anti-semite because it suited their agenda.
Anyway, they’ll be gone if labour loses. It’ll result in a civil war and bloodletting like we’ve never seen as the left, with nothing left to lose, finally takes it’s revenge and kicks them out the party. Why do you think Watson walked? He got out before he was pushed. If blairite MPs thought they were being picked on before, then they’ve seen nothing yet.
They all state that since 2017 the gesture is associated with race hate.
Obviously we dont know the intent of the person on QT last night, but how if one is not a white supremacist would you know that the 30 year game played by children, teens and even adults has been taken up and is now a sign used by these people?
When I saw this trending this morning, it was the clip where the guy laughs and then shows the clip, I had assumed he was being praised for playing this game whilst on live TV, I had not a clue this was linked to white supremacy. I was aware the Christchurch killer had done the sign, but had filed this under what a cock to have committed this crime and then show no remorse and show the circle game sign.
The key here is context.
Indeed it is.
So under what context do you posit that a QT audience member - a show renowned for it's totally unbiased selection of candidates in the audience, let's not forget - is making a circle gesture below the waist with fingers pointing down in a manner which is intended to mean "OK"?
Hell, who even says OK like that any more? I don't think I've seen it since I was at school.
I'd never even heard of it being a thing before until this thread but purely from the photo posted and, yes, context I think it's fairly obvious what he meant by it. But yeah, maybe you're right and he's simply a Malcolm in the Middle fan or a misunderstood SCUBA diver on his day off.
Selective quoting and understanding and stealth editing. But Squirrelking's link is there for all to see and clearly contradicts his point of view. Not that I'd use the ADF as a source myself given their baggage.
And another to ponder:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/03/ok-sign-gesture-emoji-rightwing-alt-right
Beware the Cyclops
Why do you think Watson walked?
Wait, Tom Watson's gone? How on earth did I miss that?
Balls.
I didn't notice the "circle game" gesture during the show...
… but the whole family, including teenage offspring where dumbfounded by the audience make-up...
Our kids experience from school, work, college etc was that no way the audience represented the balance of views amongst their age group (audience included a lot of pro Brexit, Pro-Tory, right wing youth etc)
Given the context of a (suspected) unrepresentative audience, then a darker meaning to the gesture could well be correct
Anyway, they’ll be gone if labour loses. It’ll result in a civil war and bloodletting like we’ve never seen as the left, with nothing left to lose, finally takes it’s revenge and kicks them out the party. Why do you think Watson walked? He got out before he was pushed. If blairite MPs thought they were being picked on before, then they’ve seen nothing yet..
Could you talk us through how kicking out all the moderates (who are the only ones with any obvious ability) in some far left coup is going to make voting for the labour party more appealing to anyone who's politics have developed slightly further than common room placard-waving?
Or (and I think I know the answer to this one already) does that not really matter, as getting elected is a bourgeois construct?
Could you talk us through how kicking out all the moderates
I never said I support it, it's just obviously what's going to happen (I'm an observer BTW as I've never been a labour member or been active in labour campaigns). In an ideal world the blairite MPs would have respectfully accepted that their time was up (after two election defeats), and got behind the rest of the party. They didn't even have to support it, they could have just gone back to their constituencies and carried on campaigning on local issues like most backbenchers do. They didn't do that though did they? Instead they spent their time doing the tories job for them by disgracefully smearing Corbyn as an anti-semite and jumping on whatever hysterical bandwagon passed by. Well rightly or wrongly it's not going to be forgotten, and they will have only themselves to blame.
Wait, Tom Watson’s gone? How on earth did I miss that?
Really? Where've you been?
When the same person is reguarly sexist, thinks it’s OK to use the circle gesture and the JD expression it’s not nasty to point it out.
The member in question has been around for only 4 weeks, until there is any eveidence to the contrary I’ll take his stories with a pinch of salt, object to his sexism and argue against the use of JD and the circle symbol being “innocent” on 10/12/2019.
The key here is indeed context. The context of the QT interview was one of racists being racist. The context of this forum is one of an Internet in which alt-right trolls and bots are doing their utmost to influence an election result. If you think STW is immune, think again.
Lol. think you better go have a lie down pal.
The guy on QT could very well have been making a white power sign or trolling to that effect. He could also just as easily been making a circle sign below his waist as per the game so he can go home and give his flatmate a dead arm as he no doubt watched his appearance on tv. Best to reserve the hate and wishing him out of a uni course or job before the end of the week until proof is provided.
This mindset you have where your own assumtions can replace any evidence or due process is frankly disturbing. You then use this as justification to launch witch hunts and pile ons when in reality you know **** all. I think you are well past the point of no return though, so there is very little benefit to engaging with you any further.
Daz - I'm just checking, but you do know that in a democracy you actually need to appeal to enough of the population for them to vote for you?
I don't know if you remember the 80's fondly, but at the time this wasn't a great look, electorally-speaking, for the Labour Party, so trying to recreate it would seem somewhat ill-advised
I’m just checking, but you do know that in a democracy you actually need to appeal to enough of the population for them to vote for you?
The difficulty is selling yourself out and having policies you don't even believe in but may win and would not be as bad as the tory policies. It is then getting the balance right in how far you have to go towards the tory policies to get the votes and then you just end up with another party similar to the tory party with a different name, brilliant.
The guy on QT could very well have been making a white power sign or trolling to that effect. He could also just as easily been making a circle sign below his waist as per the game so he can go home and give his flatmate a dead arm as he no doubt watched his appearance on tv.
Whilst this is factually correct of course, would you suggest that those two possibilities are equally likely?
Daz – I’m just checking, but you do know that in a democracy you actually need to appeal to enough of the population for them to vote for you?
Well of course he does, that was his excuse for supporting Corbyn's stancefudge on brexit. apparantly if the racists were not appeased then labour could never win, funny that dazh has abandoned that logic on all other principles.
so there is very little benefit to engaging with you any further.
Excellent, Squirrelking promised me that years ago but has never kept the promise.
Whilst this is factually correct of course, would you suggest that those two possibilities are equally likely?
Yes, it's almost certainly one or the other. All I've got to go off is a photo on social media, he looks young enough it could be a daft studenty game he is playing. I certainly wouldn't be ready to burn him at the stake for it. If there was anything sinister about it, I'm sure the police will be investigating, I imagine there will be dozens of compaints made by now. Why are you so keen on social media (mob) justice?
he looks young enough it could be a daft studenty game he is playing.
Sure, best possibility there is he is, in fact, an idiot.
Why are you so keen on social media (mob) justice?
I'm not, I'm just not keen to jump to the opposite conclusion because it suits my agenda either.
Yes, it’s almost certainly one or the other. All I’ve got to go off is a photo on social media, he looks young enough it could be a daft studenty game he is playing.
Given there are a gazzilion students and almost no white supremacists I'd say the overwhelming likelihood is the gesture was totally innocent.
If it wasn't innocent we'll be finding out very soon because his image has gone viral.
EDIT: I've just seen the image. If I were someone who judged by appearances I'd say "He looks the sort.". Fortunately I'm not so I'll leave my comments above to stand. 🙂
BBC have had problems with QT producer involved in audience selection spreading far right propaganda before, so there is a suspicion about anything along those lines in the show
The fact that it has featured so many Eurosceptic MEPs & virtually no pro EU ones also raises questions
spreading far right propaganda
They shared an image of a Poppy on FB! (...and you've just shared a link to the same post on STW!)
I’m not, I’m just not keen to jump to the opposite conclusion because it suits my agenda either.
You’re doing it wrong… you are supposed to say everyone is a moron, a sucker, or something like that.
I’m not, I’m just not keen to jump to the opposite conclusion because it suits my agenda either.
Yet you never questioned the initial conclusion jump that he was a white supremacist? Never questioned the post hoping he will now be out of a job/uni?
What do you think my agenda is in raising the good possibility that he might not be doing what some people were quick to assume as fact?
I'm calling bullshit on the White Supremacist thing.
Has anyone watched the QT episode?
The bloke in question applauds Humza Yussef and doens't clap when pro brexit points are made.
If he is a White Supremacist he is a pretty shit one
What do you think my agenda is in raising the good possibility that he might not be doing what some people were quick to assume as fact?
I supplied the link explaining the many possible nuances… you just called anyone pointing out the 2019 political in context version a moron.
The bloke in question applauds Humza Yussef and doens’t clap when pro brexit points are made.
Interesting. Thanks Rich.
I’m just checking, but you do know that in a democracy you actually need to appeal to enough of the population for them to vote for you?
I know what democracy isn't, and that's appealling to enough billionaires to get them and their friends in the print and broadcast media to prevent them making up slanderous lies about you. If that's your entire solution for the labour party then they've already lost, because the policies will have been watered down to such an extent that nothing will change.
Democracy is not pleading for a few scraps from billionaire tax evaders, it's seizing the power from them and forcing them to pay their fair share. I really don't see what is so 'hard left' about that.
Labour’s problem (well, part of it) is they didn’t call out the lies of the 2016 campaign, for fear of labelling voters as stupid for not seeing through the lies. They now have no way of countering Johnson’s team as they double down on the lies in 2019.
This campaign is the 2016 one repeated… big spend on targeted lies on social media… promise money for the NHS that won’t materialise… tell people Brexit will be quick and simple… throw in some lines about filthy foreigners being allowed to “treat this country like it is their home”… keep things simple and vague so as to appeal to voters’ contradictory desires… “it’ll all be different and better than the status quo (which we created)”.
Anyone see 'Corbyn reads mean tweets'?
Tweet: Free university for everyone? Who's going to pay for this? Corbyn still thinks there's a magic money tree!
Corbyn: Yeah, there is. In the Cayman Islands.
He may not be the best opposition leader but he's much funnier than Binners.
The bloke in question applauds Humza Yussef
Humza Yussef is a Nationalist.
Case proven.
Labour’s problem (well, part of it) is they didn’t call out the lies of the 2016 campaign
Labour's main problem is that they don't appeal to labour any more. What used to be described as the working class are moving away from Labour in their traditional strongholds. Young people are replacing them but a)there aren't yet enough of them and b) they haven't historically voted.
Stick any front person you like in there, any manifesto. You are still battling demographics.
He may not be the best opposition leader but he’s much funnier than Binners
Surely we can set the bar a little higher than that.
Daz - you do realise that there's a whole world between the unfettered, unregulated free-market capitalism being offered by the present Tory party and your solution of revolutionary 'to the barricades' socialism
What you call 'selling out' other people refer to as 'compromise'.
And this country is in the mess that its in at the moment, and our choices at this election look particularly bleak, largely because compromise and pragmatism are two things that both sides of the political spectrum have completely rejected.
Perfect circle game placement, at the waist so to not break the in line of sight rule nor the above the shoulders rule. Out of the genital area so that the other guy trying to get the +5 doesn't accidentally damage you . Casually resting on his body so that its not too obvious and people around cant get you for a +5 from behind. I'm a 90s kid, is there nobody else that played that game?
The white power sign is meant to be the other way round. The three fingers make a W, and the circle and your wrist a P.
Even if it was the white power sign, you could have all ignored it and not fed the trolling.
Corbyn: Yeah, there is. In the Cayman Islands.
Labour have no plan to get hold of any of that cash: Only one mention of Tax Havens in the Labour Manifesto and zero mention of any plan to aquire it. (Maybe that's not true, he's been saying for 40 years that we should leave and end free movement of people and capital which *would* help him aquire resources that currently end up abroad - but not the Cayman Islands which aren't in the EU.)
It's just Dunning-Kruger - he thinks it's easy because he knows nothing about Tax Policy.
Humza Yussef is a Nationalist.
Case proven.
A Scottish Nationalist.
He's a Pale-Blue Supremacist
Even if it was the white power sign, you could have all ignored it and not fed the trolling.
Like you have?
He’s a Pale-Blue Supremacist
Putting burning porridge crosses on people's lawns.
Labour’s main problem is that they don’t appeal to labour any more. What used to be described as the working class are moving away from Labour in their traditional strongholds.
Agree. One day those people will wake up and realise voting tory may not have been their best bet but that's democracy.
Daz – you do realise that there’s a whole world between the unfettered, unregulated free-market capitalism being offered by the present Tory party and your solution of revolutionary ‘to the barricades’ socialism
What you call ‘selling out’ other people refer to as ‘compromise’.
What kind of compromise policies would be in your perfect manifesto?
I'm not convinced the current Labour manifesto could be described as "‘to the barricades’ socialism" when nearly every part of it is happening in other countries (many in Europe) that wouldn't be called socialist countries.
Daz – you do realise that there’s a whole world between the unfettered, unregulated free-market capitalism being offered by the present Tory party and your solution of revolutionary ‘to the barricades’ socialism
What you call ‘selling out’ other people refer to as ‘compromise’.
The "compromise" led to PFI hospitals and Iraq last time around. Exactly what did the right compromise on? They let me keep a pot to piss in - I suppose I should be grateful.
Yet you never questioned the initial conclusion jump that he was a white supremacist?
I didn't jump to that conclusion either. I assumed that either that is indeed what he intended or it was a stupid troll that's blown up in his face, my point was simply that going "it means OK" is probably the least likely possibility out of the available options.
Never questioned the post hoping he will now be out of a job/uni?
I missed that post, and wouldn't wish that outcome on (almost) anyone. Do I have to question everything in order to win my Mass Debaters 2019 badge?
I’m not convinced the current Labour manifesto could be described as “‘to the barricades’
Saying you'll nationalise all the water and power companies within your first 100 days in government, as John MacDonnel did yesterday, but that'll you'll be the ones deciding what you'll be paying for them is quite 'to the barricades' in most peoples book.
Saying you’ll nationalise all the water and power companies within your first 100 days in government, as John MacDonnel did yesterday, but that’ll you’ll be the ones deciding what you’ll be paying for them is quite ‘to the barricades’ in most peoples book.
The actual quote is:
‘In our first 100 days we will start the processes of bringing water and energy into public ownership.
when nearly every part of it is happening in other countries
The only places I can think of that have done any significant nationalization in recent years are Zimbabwe and Venezuela.
The EU are going in the opposite direction with 4th Railway package:
http://www.tuaeu.co.uk/eu-seals-mass-rail-privatisation/
I’m not, I’m just not keen to jump to the opposite conclusion because it suits my agenda either.
I have no agenda here, but having played that game and knowing people that still play it to wind each other up I can see the other argument as being far more likely. This just seems to be people leaping to conclusions based on nothing.
Selective quoting and understanding and stealth editing. But Squirrelking’s link is there for all to see and clearly contradicts his point of view. Not that I’d use the ADF as a source myself given their baggage.
It was a bit lengthy to quote the lot, perhaps you could post the section that contradicts my point of view?
As for baggage, you stick to your "sources" (Urbandictionary - LOL) and I'll stick to mine.