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It’s the only approach that can neuter Johnson.
And that’s what needs to happen.
And likewise, if there is the chance of getting a Labour MP over the line against a Tory, LD voters should be holding their noses and voting Labour if they are serious about stopping a hard(er) Brexit.
Yeah, if you want a softer Brexit (if you think the EU will open up the negotitions a third time[1]) then Labour is the answer. If you want remain, then Libdems.
You're the first to spot Labours USP: Appealing to people who want Brexit but a different Brexit and are prepared to risk remain to get it. Quite a limited niche! I reckon leavers will just vote for BP or Tory.
[1] Personally, I think they would.
It all depends on the seat @outofbreath … there are so few Labour/LibLab marginals in a general election that your comparison is irrelevant for most of the UK. Just work out who can defeat the Conservative candidate in the seat you have a vote it, and vote for them. It’s the only way to neuter Johnson.
Quite a limited niche!
And an imaginary one. Problem is both the hard right and the useful idiots elsewhere will be pushing this line.
Let’s hope for a really cold, icy/snowy Election Day, keep the Tory voting old giffers at home
@dissonance, I don’t think the ‘hard right’ are presenting the Labour position as anything other than ‘betraying the people’, yadda yadda… @outofbreath’s analysis has nowt to do with the ‘hard right’.
@houns, bad weather might keep people working long hours with big commutes away from the booths. The retired people will rock up at 11am, and then go for tea and cakes and a natter about saving England from the changes they dislike.
I think it will all come down to places like Harrogate in the end,.
A slim majority in favour of remain at the referendum,
An M P who has always voted for which ever version of the deal was touted,
And a definate possibility of turning back to Lib Dem as a result at the GE, ( although it would take a large swing )
there are a lot of folks around here really pissed off at the idea of leaving who may swing it,
after all the leavers will still vote Tory.
It won’t take many Tory seats to change hands to leave us right back where we started from........
For Harrogate read pretty much any Tory seat that voted remain, where ld are in 2nd place ,
On the other side it works in reverse in Labour seats that voted leave, but only where the Tories are a close 2nd,
After all I can’t see many leave voters switching to L D, they are more likely to stick with Labour and hope for another referendum ( or cross fingers for a Tory win )
But
Whatever happens remember 1 very important fact
Politicians of every brand will say whatever it takes to get your vote so don’t believe a word any of them say ☹️
It all depends on the seat @outofbreath … there are so few Labour/LibLab marginals in a general election that your comparison is irrelevant for most of the UK.
From all the commentary I've read there's no way to predict what's a safe seat and what's not - Brexit (with a remain party and two leave partys) changes everything. eg Some safe Tory seats will be remain areas, in some areas the Torys are remainers and the Labour voters are leavers and so on.
There's no such thing as a safe seat this time.
There’s no such thing as a safe seat this time.
Not really true, unless you simply mean there are fewer safe seats than before.
I don’t think the ‘hard right’ are presenting the Labour position as anything other than ‘betraying the people’, yadda yadda
Really? You dont think the brexiteer elite wont be using that as one of their many attack lines?
Cracking speech by Jess this evening.
Woohoo! Election!
I just hope the main parties get hammered.
My vote will go to Brexit Party in Labour land.
😄
A lot of labour MP’s are apparently already clearing their desks at Westminster
A lot of labour MP’s are apparently already clearing their desks at Westminster
I hope that is the same for the Tories.
A lot of labour MP’s are apparently already clearing their desks at Westminster
Hopefully JC is one of them....
Hopefully JC is one of them…
Always good to see the politically illiterate happy to out themselves.
73% of voters in Islington North voted for Corbyn in the last GE. You may not like him as a politician but it's pretty obvious that his constituents do.
Also please bear in mind you were responding to something 'binners' dribbled forth via his keyboard. He has a pretty solid history of talking complete cods.
There’s no such thing as a safe seat this time.
I will bet £1,000 with anyone who wants to take it that Desmond Swayne will win New Forest West as easily as he has for the last 20 years.
Hopefully JC is one of them….
Boris is in more danger of losing his seat than JC,
I read Boris was moving seats to somewhere safer
I suspect Jess Phillips is bang on, here. She usually is
https://twitter.com/haggis_uk/status/1189231956472598528?s=21
No doubt Cummings will be planning on doubling down on on all the dodgy dubious stunts that he used in the referendum campaign, plus some new additions
I read Boris was moving seats to somewhere safer
That is the rumour and seems pretty likely. Reckon the one way kerley would lose the bet is if Johnson nicks that seat but more seriously got several seats available from those quitting or have been given the boot which are a lot safer.
The people voted in 2017. Why do we need a second general election? I say anyone who wants to re-run the will of the people in 2017 is anti-democratic
Clifton-Brown in the Cotswolds is an almost guaranteed safe seat, even with his ejection from the party conference. If he gets less than 50% of the vote that might be seen as a gentle warning...
A lot of labour MP’s are apparently already clearing their desks at Westminster
Cowardly *****! (sorry I am aware I'm swearing a lot today). Seriously though, if a politician of any colour doesn't relish the chance to fight an election and make their case for whatever it is they believe in, then they shouldn't be standing. No doubt we can rely on them to spend the campaign whining about how unfair it all is and how it's not their fault. If they're not willing to fight they should stand aside for those who are.
My understanding was that foreign funding during an election campaign was illegal, but I daresay it will happen.
Oh, and the old doddery Brexit voters will have postal votes already set up.
So how did we will only back an election on the 9th end up giving Dumbojo what he wanted all along.
When are the people who know what they're doing turn up?
I suspect Jess Phillips is bang on, here. She usually is<
She's probably upset she's got to try and get behind Labour and put them into power.
(seriously - what the bloody hell is she warbling on about. Her acting is getting worse.)
Looks like there’s been a vagina alert at Brocialist HQ.
My constituency swings between Labour and Lib Dem every few years - currently Labour but could go back to Lib Dem. No chance of the Tories getting the seat.
Dd - sorry but that needs a translation
The people voted in 2017. Why do we need a second general election? I say anyone who wants to re-run the will of the people in 2017 is anti-democratic
The result of the 2017 election has been implemented, the referendum result has been..................
Speak to some female Labour MPs who dare to speak their mind Graham.
Ah got you
The result of the 2017 election has been implemented, the referendum result has been………………
Really? We've brought back fox hunting & have a Brexit deal that has no border in the Irish sea, close regulatory alignment with the EU & binding workers rights, standards & environmental protections , plus workers on company boards, independent energy supplier review, corporate pay review, takeover rules revised, productivity investment fund, prison & justice review, shale gas wealth fund, strengthend the union😁🤣🤣🤣
https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto
If we don't have a vote to repeal fox hunting then democracy in this country is dead !!! 🙄
Don’t forget,
In order to vote you have to make sure you are registered to do so
Regardless of how you plan on voting ( and please do ) it is important to register
https://www.registertovote.service.gov.uk/register-to-vote
Speak to some female Labour MPs who dare to speak their mind Graham.
And yet MPs such as Laura Pidcock regularly speak their mind.
Maybe, just maybe, it's the message not the messenger that attracts the criticism?
Jess Phillips, unfortunately, is only generally interested in the prospects of Jess Phillips.
The people voted in 2017. Why do we need a second general election? I say anyone who wants to re-run the will of the people in 2017 is anti-democratic
The result of the 2017 election has been implemented, the referendum result has been………………
The only chance to get Brexit is to "drain the swamp", hopefully with No Deal, then start again. i.e. get out with No Deal then after that the politicians can argue amongst themselves until their face turn blue.
The only chance to get Brexit is to “drain the swamp”, hopefully with No Deal, then start again. i.e. get out with No Deal then after that the politicians can argue amongst themselves until their face turn blue.
Without wishing to be rude, are you even eligible to vote in the UK?
The result of the 2017 election has been implemented,
Has it? Have the Tories delivered all their election promises already? The “winning” party is the means, not the end.
Jess Phillips, unfortunately, is only generally interested in the prospects of Jess Phillips.
S'ok, if binners et al get what they want she'll soon have plenty of time to develop her career as a celebrity. Strictly Come Dancing are probably on the phone as we speak.
the amendment for 16+, EU citizens and troll votes was narrowly rejected
Jess Phillips - There will be an onslaught of money, from who knows where, coming into the country to fund propaganda during our election.. our electoral laws are not fit for purpose & we are about to see foreign funding flood into our system
I really rate Jess Phillips and I'd agree we need to end private funding of political parties - the state needs to do it.
Having said that, if she's saying the Tory party are at an advantage in campaigning terms due to funds she's wrong. AFAIK the Tory party is broke - in debt IIRC. (Google's not helping me with the figures.) Plus, crucially, the Tory party have a dearth of activists. The other parties have activist coming out of their ears. They're not running a good well funded campaign their entire lead in the Polls is due to an utterly crap Labour leader. Which they can't be blamed for!
Mind you what else can she say to excuse the current polls? It wouldn't be a good look if she'd said: "If I'd won instead of getting 4pc we'd be on the verge of a landslide right now".
Not really true, unless you simply mean there are fewer safe seats than before.
Forgive my hyperbole, but yeah, I'm saying a large number of seats that look safe might not be because Brexit and for the reasons stated on the media and in these threads. ...and yeah, that could be all of them. A 75pc majority means nothing if *all* the people who voted for you last time are Leavers, and your party is Remain or uncertain. (and vice-versa.)
On the Jess Philips comments - weren’t we repeatedly told by Labour that dodgy foreign money had funded Brexit via Arron Banks - only for an investigation by the National Crime Agency to find there was zero evidence?
Without wishing to be rude, are you even eligible to vote in the UK?
Yes. 😀
His internet persona probably isn’t but he himself almost certainly is.
Has it? Have the Tories delivered all their election promises already? The “winning” party is the means, not the end.
Does any party ever ? Manifestos are statements of intent nothing more.
Jess talking about BXP ltd inability to tell where it's donations came from
Does any party ever ? Manifestos are statements of intent nothing more.
Like a referendum?
Phillips and Lucas made contributions in the house today that are both worth watching. And they’re both right.
Been speaking to people locally today who I thought might hold their noses and vote Labour to change our MP… and for now it’s a strong, “I can’t for Corbyn, it has to be LibDem”. Hmm…
Labour might well have pushed voters away at the local and European elections expecting them to come running back at a General Election (which describes me I suppose) but looks like it’s going to be tough.
Like a referendum?
democracy is apparently having vote after vote until the result agrees with the goal of the leader.
very periclean.
Is that why we are having another vote in December then Rich?
Does any party ever ? Manifestos are statements of intent nothing more.
...and they didn't win the election, they just lost slightly less than the others.
All comes out in the wash though, parties that fail to fulfil their promises usually get punished in elections.
Like a referendum?
IMHO referendums mean nothing, it's an opinion poll. IMHO a manifesto means little but means more because a party is actually held to account over their manifesto in the following election. A referendum means nothing and has nobody with any responsibility for carrying it out. Added to that over Brexit there's a 50/50 split so a referendum is a coin flip - you could hold weekly referendums and get a different result according to what's in the news that day.
now it’s a strong, “I can’t for Corbyn, it has to be LibDem”.
GOOD. The Libdems are a rallying point for remainers, and the leave vote is split.
chewkw
The only chance to get Brexit is to “drain the swamp”, hopefully with No Deal, then start again. i.e. get out with No Deal then after that the politicians can argue amongst themselves until their face turn blue.
A stunning piece of political insight there. Please enlighten us further with your great and unmatched wisdom.
JP
I can't say I'm liking the idea of a general election, it's only fair that the Conservatives should own the mess of their own creation, it seems like it's passing the buck.
That said, I'm pretty sure there will be some musical chairs going on but it will ultimately result in a hung parliament so where does that leave us? We'll right back where we are now to be honest. Parliamentary paralysis.
I can only hope that the tories and Labour lose seats to the libs, SNP and the brexit party to further level the field.
If there's ever been an argument for PR it's this.
But.. Maybe it's not a bad thing, we won't have PR any time soon so it might force the children in Westminster to play nicely and share the toys, and form agreements, maybe not formal coalitions but sensible adult cooperation for the good of the country, something we seem to be lacking.
IMHO referendums mean nothing, it’s an opinion poll.
I'm sure this has been covered many times but it really isn't, not when it's presented as a clear choice with the main parties agreeing to implement the result.
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Only one party produced that leaflet, and they’ve long since got rid of those that produced it. There is a thread about all that.
GOOD. The Libdems are a rallying point for remainers, and the leave vote is split.
In a seat where the tories beat labour by 600 votes, 700 people voted green and 1900 lib dem. Yes of course, people should vote for the lib dems if they don't want brexit. If remainers vote for the lib dems in Calderdale and get Whittaker (one of the most odious tories in the country) then they deserve everything they get.
Been speaking to people locally today who I thought might hold their noses and vote Labour to change our MP… and for now it’s a strong, “I can’t for Corbyn, it has to be LibDem”. Hmm…
This is the danger..
Assuming you're in the same area as me,
The 2017 GE results were..
Tory 26790 votes
Labour 26181 votes
Lib. 1952 votes
now it’s a strong, “I can’t for Corbyn, it has to be LibDem”.
I would like to think this would be the case nationwide, but there are still many who think JC is the Messiah and will take us all to the promised land (possibly a hard Brexit antisemitic wasteland).
Interestingly in the latest poll, Cambridge looks tipped to return to Libdem after a brief stint being Labour. Zero chance of the Tories getting in.
If remainers vote for the lib dems in Calderdale and get Whittaker (one of the most odious tories in the country) then they deserve everything they get.
In those circumstances, why would people still not want to vote Labour? We need to think about that, and address it, rather than telling them that they ‘deserve what they get’. Perhaps slagging of those Labour MPs they might approve of might not be the best way of making Labour look broad enough to appeal to people concerned about some of the key people in the party that they don’t trust. Just an idea. The Labour vote needs to grow, fast.
This is the danger..
It is very worrying. We’ll see what’s planned to turn this around once the campaign proper starts. There’s lots to do. It’s going to require something ingenious now… no time for a long slow process of winning back the trust of voters… it needs something very convincing. No idea what.
GOOD. The Libdems are a rallying point for remainers, and the leave vote is split.
I don't mind Libdems winning the next GE because their agenda is very clear which is to revoke Brexit.
If they win then power to them but it will be interesting to see how they govern.
Only one party produced that leaflet, and they’ve long since got rid of those that produced it
Yes a Conservative government which we still have, and one that has never considered the referendum an opinion poll. Neither has the Labour party. This is the only point I'm trying to make on this.
Negotiating Brexit
Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.
2017 labour manifesto.
https://labour.org.uk/manifesto/negotiating-brexit/
In those circumstances, why would people still not want to vote Labour?
I dunno, stupidity?
Seriously though, stop overthinking it. People will vote as they mostly always do. Some will think about it, the remainers among them have a very simple decision, so it shouldn't be hard. If they vote against their interests then they'll get what they vote for. That's the way this works.
Now, on another subject, there's already a theme developing in this campaign. The tories and libdems are talking about brexit, labour are talking about the economy, health, schools and other things people have always cared about. This will come down to how obsessed/interested/bothered people are about brexit. I think that could be good for labour.
Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.
Take this to the other thread and try and ask people to try and make sense of that sentence there. It has so many possible meanings it could eat this thread.
People will vote as they mostly always do.
Wakey wakey!
Labour 2017 voters deserted them for other parties in the 2019 elections so far.
Labour accepts the referendum result and a Labour government will put the national interest first.
#Hashtag bus facts.
That's why Labour are untrustworthy, you can't brexit and put the national interest first.
Two diametrically opposed statements in the same sentence.
Spun up like some fairground candyfloss.
Now, on another subject, there’s already a theme developing in this campaign. The tories and libdems are talking about brexit, labour are talking about the economy, health, schools and other things people have always cared about. This will come down to how obsessed/interested/bothered people are about brexit. I think that could be good for labour.
How much non brexit legislation have the Tories or through in the last 3.5 years?
How much non brexit legislation will any government get through over the next decade as we try to negotiate the far trickier & more complex future relationship ?
Labour 2017 voters deserted them for other parties in the 2019 elections so far.
Are you seriously expecting people to vote the same way in a general election as the euros? When have they ever done that before? I'm not saying it won't happen, but it would be pretty stupid for labour to base a campaign on that when it's never happened before.
And so it begins
Quite a slick video
I'm seeing youth vote
https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellMP/status/1189299448947585026
The tories and libdems are talking about brexit, labour are talking about the economy, health, schools and other things
Yup, ignoring the issue that currently eclipses all others is not really a recipe for electoral success. Voters are well aware than Leaving/Remaining will have far more of an impact on "economy, health, schools and other things" than any other factor over a far long period of time.
This will come down to how obsessed/interested/bothered people are about brexit.
We already know that. We've been polarised and it's the biggest issue by a country mile. It's such a monster issue normal electoral predictions may no longer work.
you can’t brexit and put the national interest first.
Two diametrically opposed statements in the same sentence.
It makes sense if you accept the referendum result and brexit as a given. You then negotiate to give the country the best possible outcome within those parameters.
But Kelvin is right, this is drifting away from the election thread into the brexit thread.
but it would be pretty stupid for labour to base a campaign on that when it’s never happened before.
If the Labour campaign isn’t trying to win back voters who switched to other parties at the local and European elections this year, it’s already over.
I’m seeing youth vote
Because what the kids really want is a coin flip in which heads is Brexit. 😀
But Kelvin is right, this is drifting away from the election thread into the brexit thread.
Fair point, but all current political threads come down to Brexit - you certainly can't discuss the election without discussing the key issue.
This is why a general election is a bad idea, there's only one, dominant issue at the moment, we've not had a functional government for about 3 years now.
The general election will be voted on a for or against brexit basis.
And we'll still probably have a hung parliament so back to square one.
Pretty much what Phillips and Lucas said in parliament today. Watch their clips if you get a chance.
Phillips had the best line of the day about it too
we’ve not had a functional government for about 3 years now.
Which is why a gen election is essential. ...and it's worse than that, Cameron had a tiny majority, not enough to sensibly govern. He couldn't do anything remotely controversial. When Major had a similar majority the media talked about it as though it was a disaster and it was. So we live in an era where more popular small parties mean low chances of anyone winning an outright majority.
The general election will be voted on a for or against brexit basis.
Good, it's the biggest issue, and it needs a decision and someone responsible for carrying that decision out.
And we’ll still probably have a hung parliament so back to square one.
That's the risk, but if parliament can't come to a conclusion all you can do is hold elections until someone wins. Certainly a government with a -43 majority needs to be immediately kicked out.