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Who are the “Blairites” you refer to?
All he’s been hearing on the doorstep is how awful Jeremy Corbyn is.
Yeah, he's trying his hardest to help the disadvantaged, vulnerable and poor. What a bastard!
People want those things. Corbyn has other qualities and history as well though. To pretend otherwise is just cultish blindness.
Oh change the record Daz. Its not all a conspiracy by the right wing press. We're not all some bunch of ****ing drones who can't think for ourselves and wait for Rupert Murdoch to tell us what our opinions are, while Tony Blair whispers in our other ear. But thats the same patronsing twoddle that tends to emanate from lefties defending Jezza
People are perfectly capable of making their own minds up, and the simple fact of the matter is that Grandad just isn't somebody people regard as being fit to be PM as he doesn't possess any of the qualities needed (neither does Boris, obviously). The fact that there is a multitude of reasons why not, well documented over decades, just makes the job of the right wing press almost laughably easy. Which is why he should never have been elected as labour leader. He was always going to be unpalatable to far too many people to stand a chance of forming a government
You may not share that opinion, but you're in an ever shrinking minority
But to more objectove eyes he’s a figure that divides, not unites. And the point made earlier that Tory’s have the monopoly on Cronyism, look to Diane Abbot. Why is she still in the Shadow Cabinet? It’s not because she’s good, is it? Could it be coz she bumped uglies with Jez in the good old days?
To be fair to Diane every other Labour MP had already been in the cabinet and resigned. She was the only one available (and one of the tiny few not to back the motion of no confidence).
FPTP post means most people have to gravitate to the two big parties.
Yet the Lib Dems have lost 75% of their MPs during a period when the two main parties abandoned the centre ground.
Oh, let’s not lose sight of what Johnson will turn this country into.
He
Must
Be
Stopped
I think that reinforces my point TBH
Tom Watson seemed a reasonable bet as leader; Remainer, fairly sensible (with the exception of believing paedophile conspiracies) and not likely to turn people off.
What happened to him again?
the UK is going to elect a lying selfish shit because the UK is full of lying selfish shits.
Trump jr in full effect:
What policies could a centre-left Labour party possibly offer to a remainer Conservative to get them to switch?
There surely can't be all that many remainer Conservatives left, can there?
They just had a pollster on Radio 4 saying that there's still a large group of undecided's who consist of Tory remainers and Labour leavers who are still really conflicted about which way to vote
Who knew? 🙂
The point I’m making is Corbyn got a similar percentage of the vote as Blair in 2001 and 5% more in 2005.
The fact that those votes weren’t in the correct seats is vital, but to make out 2017 was this disastrous landslide and Corbyn was unpopular isn’t really true is it? He was roughly on pre Iraq Blair levels, and then more popular than post Iraq Blair.
You're ignoring the quality of the opponent.
Ok I should have typed more carefully. It can help get Tories into no 10.
How?
In a Lab/Lib marginal either one getting in is one less seat for the Tories.
No it can’t. It’s a lib/lab marginal, the clue is in the name.
Ok I should have typed more carefully. It can help get Tories into no 10.
Not this time. The Libdems will only work with Labour not with the Torys and I suspect they'll want to stay away from power all together after last time. Nobody thanks you for being in govenrment - the small partys get crucified. (The SNP will work with Labour but that's only in exchange for a legally binding Indyref after which they hope the won't need Westminster votes any more.)
People are perfectly capable of making their own minds up, and the simple fact of the matter is that Grandad just isn’t somebody people regard as being fit to be PM as he doesn’t possess any of the qualities needed (neither does Boris, obviously).
So neither have the qualities needed to be leader yet one is far ahead. How do you explain that?
Even if Labour had a leader who was seen as a better leader do you think they would be beating Boris?
You can dismiss 3 years of media bullshit if you like but if you put each voter in a room with Corbyn for a 30 minute discussion I would put money on the vast majority of people coming out thinking he is a reasonable and nice man and someone they could back. That is not how they would be thinking before they went in.
So neither have the qualities needed to be leader yet one is far ahead. How do you explain that?
A lot of it is down his clever use of dog-whistle racism, his 'get Brexit done' bullshit which has seen off the Brexit party, Dominic Cummings evil but effective Cambridge Analytica style social media policy and unfortunately a lot of it is down to the frankly cringeworthy trait of people in this country to defer to people with posh accents who can drop the odd latin phrase into conversation. Then theres the whole 'loveable rogue' shtick which I can't believe people haven't seen through, but yet still seems to work
Even if Labour had a leader who was seen as a better leader do you think they would be beating Boris?
Yep! I reckon if someone like Kier Starmer was at the helm, they'd be walking it!
people are perfectly capable of making their own minds up
No, they're not. Sadly.
People just accept whatever they are told, providing the messenger is a "known friend" such as the right kind of newspaper or the right TV channel or the correct celebrity.
The application of critical thinking is woefully underused.
So neither have the qualities needed to be leader yet one is far ahead. How do you explain that?
1) Boris has adopted a leave policy. 2) Labours Manifesto.
You can dismiss 3 years of media bullshit if you like but if you put each voter in a room with Corbyn for a 30 minute discussion I would put money on the vast majority of people coming out thinking he is a reasonable and nice man and someone they could back.
I'm sure that's true, but he's not spending 30 mins with every voter in the land, he's using the media to get himself accross. ...and for whatever reason people haven't taken to him.
If he'd been switched in 2016 for someone who doens't need 30 minutes face-to-face contact with 60 million voters to get his message accross then Labour would already be in power.
1) Boris has adopted a leave policy. 2) Labours Manifesto.
I'll wager that most people voting, on either side of the argument, won't have the faintest clue what's in Labour's manifesto. Of those who do, the ones who like Labour will be happy and the ones who don't will simply dismiss it all as lies. Because of the reason eloquently explained in the post directly above yours.
Parties aren't so much pushing manifestos as dragging them on a long rope. In the wake of the referendum no-one cares any more. The electorate has spent the time since then being bombarded with a battery of lies and the only tool they've been given to process all this is "project fear," which means that people can simply hand-wave anything they don't like and dismiss it as fake news. It no longer matters what anyone says because no-one is really listening any more.
That presumably then is how we get the conflicted "remain Conservative" and "leave Labour" people mentioned earlier. Why are they voting Lab/Con? Policies? Brexit? Corbyn? No, they're doing it because they always have and that's what they do.
The application of critical thinking is woefully underused.
Very true. 30% intending to vote for Corbyn is testament to this.
I see Boris is talking about looking at ending the BBC tax. That's justified a win all by itself.
30% intending to vote for Corbyn is testament to this.
They aren't voting for Corbyn. They're voting for their local MP.
Huh, QED.
5thElefant
Member
The application of critical thinking is woefully underused.Very true. 30% intending to vote for Corbyn is testament to this.
I see Boris is talking about looking at ending the BBC tax. That’s justified a win all by itself.
I see 5thelephant has fallen for Johnson's dead cat perfectly, anything to distract from him wishing away the NHS crisis & kids sleeping on the floor
what was that about critical think 5th?
I see Boris is talking about looking at ending the BBC tax.
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
That will have a greater negative impact on my live than Brexit. 🙁
Hopefully he's just saying that to get the Murdoch Press onside.
Yep! I reckon if someone like Kier Starmer was at the helm, they’d be walking it!
I don't, I think it would be fairly similar to how it is now. We will never know though so your guess is as good as mine.
geez he only had to show some empathy, central office must be apoplectic !
Threats to the Beeb AND channel 4 on the run up to an election. But the media have nothing to do with public opinion, oh no. You stay classy, BoJo 🙄
I see 5thelephant has fallen for Johnson’s dead cat perfectly, anything to distract from him wishing away the NHS crisis & kids sleeping on the floorwhat was that about critical think 5th?
Nothing to do with Boris. It's about Corbyn. Vote for anyone who isn't Corbyn.
Otherwise you'll be sleeping on the floor with everyone else, after eating your pets.
kelvin
Subscriber
Trump jr in full effect:
There's some comedy gold to be had in trolling Boris' official facebook page. They posted this article on his page.
I asked if the US born, former US citizen with a degree in ancient literature would qualify as a skilled migrant. His acolytes aren't happy with me 😆
No, they’re doing it because they always have and that’s what they do.
Actual conversation this weekend.
I paraphrase.
"My father was a Tory man. I'll vote for who I've always voted for. Labour just spend spend and spend! The EU man, he has liquid lunches, he's obviously evil, I'm not sending him money."
But, good old wandering hands cocaine vodka on the cornflakes Johnson, he's ok is he? because he's Tory? Who spent more out of the last two governments then? Oh, the Tories. No, that wasn't "because they were fixing Labours mistakes" like the righteous newspaper told you.
"The liberal democrats are a contradiction because most people voted brexit so how is planning to stop brexit democratic you tell me that?"
Er, I dunno, because democracy is about making decisions through public vote? Don't we change government every five years? Is that democratic? Are you being forced to vote Lib Dem, with your democratic vote? or could you vote for the shower in power should you so desire?
"What you're forgetting is that for a lot of people the war is personal and we just can't work with these people. The Torys are doing the right thing by leaving the EU."
I despair, I really do. It was eighty firking years ago. People actually fought for peace across Europe. The actual stated goal of close trade links as set up by the EU.
Other flimsy regurgitated crap genuinely included britain being better than europe because we're special at everything because we're better than europe and won the war, immigrants stealing the benefits, something something bananas something silly EU rules, Torys saving the NHS (actual WTF), Corbyn wants to nationalise everything, Corbyn is a marxist, Corbyn is a socialist.
It was like speaking with an animated copy of the Telegraph. Supremely depressing, really.
The real depressing fact was that after this conversation, it will be rationalised away with "he's got that from the Guardian, it's all rubbish" or some similar cognitive dissonance banishing excuse.
I don’t, I think it would be fairly similar to how it is now. We will never know though so your guess is as good as mine.
100%.
The mud would still be thrown.
Character assassination wouldn't just stop.
context of the people I speak to and a lot of them thinking like that
So you've taken a small sample and extrapolated to a larger population which is the textbook definition of generalisation.
Had you qualified what a lot meant (many of the people I know, which amounts to 2/5s of naff all) it might be different
But then it would literally be the same thing I said, which is that many studies have studied large numbers of rich people and found that a lot of them share common behaviours.
This idea of a centrist cleaning up seems to be an unshakable belief, but where’s the evidence for it?
Lib dems diving in the polls is all the evidence you need that centrism won't clean up.
That and the fact that we are at the arse-end of neolibralism which has bought about the divisions we have. (for me centrism is still neolibralism - tuned for the Guardian.)
Imagine a world without the Mail and The Sun. Corbyn would walk it.
Corbyn is unpopular.
All leaders are unpopular to many groups of people.
People are perfectly capable of making their own minds up ..
So by that raitionale we can move on from Brexit because poeple are perfectly capable of making their own minds up. And the ones that voted for Brexit clearly knew what they were getting in to?
You've used the crux of your own argument here time and time again against Brexit voters.
There surely can’t be all that many remainer Conservatives left, can there?
Apparently there are. For remainder cons party>remaining for leaver Labs the opposite is true. That's part of the problem.
The Tories have a plan to steel some voters from Labour. It’s a big fat obvious obnoxious one. I’ve not seen even a hint that Labour want to take votes from the Tories. Their priority seems to be new voters, and I have no idea where that will be enough for them to poach seats. I hope it pays off.
@mrmonkfinger > you missed one trick there:
because democracy is about making decisions through public vote?
It isn't, it's about choosing people through public vote who are then empowered to make those decisions.
What you’re forgetting is that for a lot of people the war is personal
Did you ask him what he did in the war personally? Unless he's approaching 100, the answer is probably "hide."
we’re better than europe and won the war
We did win the war. With help from *deep breath*:
The United States (from December 1941)
The Soviet Union (from June 1941)
China
France
Poland
Yugoslavia
Greece
Netherlands
Belgium
Norway
Czechoslovakia
Luxembourg
India
Canada
Australia
New Zealand
South Africa
Ethiopia
Brazil
Philippines
Mongolia
Nepal
Mexico
Cuba
The Tories have a plan to steel some voters from Labour. It’s a big fat obvious obnoxious one. I’ve not seen even a hint that Labour want to take votes from the Tories.
How could Labour take votes from the Tories?
I see Johnson is up to his usual default antics. If in doubt, say something racist
Boris Johnson vows end to migrants ‘treating Britain as their own’
He's an absolutely despicable human being. He's deliberately ratcheting up fear of 'the other', stoking up xenophobia and giving a tacit nod to the racists that he's on their side. It ****ing infuriates me because there are genuine consequences to this kind of shit. Not for a rich privileged white man, obviously...
I'm cautious about quoting the great sage Gary Neville but he was bang on at the weekend after the monkey chants at the Manchester derby
Gary Neville accuses Boris Johnson of fuelling racism
How could Labour take votes from the Tories?
Moving away a Marxist shadow chancellor, and a shadow home secretary who thinks Mao wasn't all that bad. That would be a start, I'd say.
Oh, and the whole inviting nasty people to parliament. Better stop that as well, I reckon.
How could Labour take votes from the Tories?
There are an awful lot of people who historically voted Conservative, don’t want Boris as PM, don’t want Brexit, don’t like the Trumpificatuin of UK politics, don’t want the government to neuter the legal system and other restraints on executive power, and simply aren’t impressed with post 2016 Tory “government” so far… they should be ripe for the “let’s give the other party a chance” vote.
Yep Labours problem is they just think all they have to be is the best Labour Party ever and then everyone will see sense.
If Labour had fewer policies it would be so much easier for them. Its about optics and the Tories understand this. The Labour campaign has been a bit of a mess. Every new election promise makes the others less believable.
The Tories have to convince everyone that they are not going to sell the NHS
Labour have to convince everyone that they are not going to "bankrupt the country like last time" (NB I know it wasn't Labours fault but lots of people still think it was! Boris saying it today- unchallenged of course)
Still fingers crossed
There are an awful lot of people who historically voted Conservative, don’t want Boris as PM, don’t want Brexit, don’t like the Trumpificatuin of UK politics, don’t want the government to neuter the legal system and other restraints on executive power, and simply aren’t impressed with post 2016 Tory “government” so far… they should be ripe for the “let’s give the other party a chance” vote.
And how are Labour not meeting every one of those criteria already?
If Labour had fewer policies it would be so much easier for them. Its about optics and the Tories understand this. The Labour campaign has been a bit of a mess. Every new election promise makes the others less believable.
The Tories have to convince everyone that they are not going to sell the NHS
Labour have to convince everyone that they are not going to “bankrupt the country like last time” (NB I know it wasn’t Labours fault but lots of people still think it was! Boris saying it today- unchallenged of course)
All of this ignores the elephant of Brexit though. The Cons could (and pretty much have) no manifesto and still get an insane amount of votes purely because they claim to "Get Brexit Done". At one point Brexit Party was polling at 25%.
Labour having the perfect manifesto but being remain would not get those voters back.
Yep agreed but maybe with fewer policies they could argue more about how the Tories' policy of 'Get Brexit done' is BS and Bojo himself has been an impediment on getting Brexit done etc
Or **** it just have get Brexit done vs Free Broadband
Cougar, yes, I know, a subtle distinction given the overall discussion.
As to what they did in the war, aged 85, I know exactly what they did (have bombs dropped very close to them, watched American troops roll past for D Day, saw a lot of aircraft shot at overhead), the personal thing was really relating to folk having lost parents and relatives (etc). Either way, doesn't really matter, it is the holding tight of the belief that All Germans Are Nazi Bastards and Britain Shouldn't Have Anything To Do With Them, which is, well, asinine and unproductive at best, and a number of other words at worst.
And how are Labour not meeting every one of those criteria already?
See CHF's post above - viz
Moving away a Marxist shadow chancellor, and a shadow home secretary who thinks Mao wasn’t all that bad. That would be a start, I’d say.
Oh, and the whole inviting nasty people to parliament. Better stop that as well, I reckon.
I am that Conservative remainer, despairing of the direction the Tory party has gone and would readily vote Labour otherwise this time around.
I am that Conservative remainer, despairing of the direction the Tory party has gone and would readily vote Labour otherwise this time around.
So who are you going to vote for?
Surely you can't vote Conservative?
Surely you can’t vote Conservative?
Indeed I won't. I may not vote at all, for the first time in 40+ years. If I vote it will be LD. I was lining up early on to vote LD but their policy of revoke A50 whatever made me feel they'd overplayed their hand. And as usual, they may be centrist in some things but they're extreme in some of their Liberal ideas.
But don't be so surprised if someone is going to vote Tory. Millions are - and they're not all fools or Little Englander isolationists. There are many who will hold their nose and vote Tory because they think the current incarnation of Labour is even further beyond the pale.
but they’re extreme in some of their Liberal ideas.
Extreme and Liberal don't seem to mesh.
but they’re extreme in some of their Liberal ideas.
Out of interest what policies put you off?
Laura K getting played by Cummings again I see
Anonymous source says that Hancock's aide was punched by bused in labour protestors
(Tho she's since deleted the tweet saying that)
Reality is that a guy on a bike shouted at him and he drove off, but somehow she can't quite admit it?
I'm not saying she's a paid Tory bot, but just wish that 'anonymous sources' weren't given so much credence in desperate bid to get a story
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1204091610843226112?s=19
Out of interest what policies put you off?
Cancel A50 - not the right way to stop Brexit IMO
Look at JS as a potential PM - vastly unrealistic expectation
Those were the principal ones. But perhaps if they were ramping up in the polls I'd still consider them - but they've blown it.
"Grim"?
Cyclist assaults politician...
AHH apparently the story about police arresting a labour activist taxied over there by the party came from Guido Fawkes
& Of course the Dan Hodges, mailonline still running with the story
How is it that 3.5 years after the referendum so many journos still get played so easily by the Cummings/Brexit/Tory fake need soon machine?
Either way, doesn’t really matter, it is the holding tight of the belief that All Germans Are Nazi Bastards and Britain Shouldn’t Have Anything To Do With Them, which is, well, asinine and unproductive at best, and a number of other words at worst.
Sure. I mean, I appreciate that people like him are a lost cause. Someone who's thought that way for decades isn't going to be changing their opinion any time soon regardless of how many facts you present.
My point was rather, I've seen a commentary that runs along the lines of "well I voted remain but we have to leave the EU because democracy" and it needs challenging because it's incorrect and misleading.
Cancel A50 – not the right way to stop Brexit IMO
Perhaps, perhaps not. But which is more important, that it is / isn't stopped, or the method in which it's achieved?
Personally I think it should be the right way to stop it. It's literally the entire point of Parliament to make those sorts of decisions. Whether it is the right way, well, sadly after four years of being systematically lied to I think we've long passed the point of not being able to do it without another referendum.
Look at JS as a potential PM – vastly unrealistic expectation
I can't really argue with that. She seems to be a remarkably poor choice of leader for the LDs.
Preston blaming , but not naming, 'senior tories'
That'll be Matt Hancock then
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1204100056762265600?s=19
Cancel A50 – not the right way to stop Brexit IMO
The only way to stop Brexit. The law says Britain leaves if it doesn't.
Cancel A50 – not the right way to stop Brexit IMO
Huh. Here you go then:
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/lib-dems-ready-for-people-s-vote-1-6414965
"Jo Swinson says bill for second Brexit referendum is 'ready to go'"
(Also... wait, what?)
Posted my vote today - noticed just after I put it in the box that the only collection was 9am! Hope it gets there ...
scotroutes
Member
“Grim”?
Grim to a tory like Laura K
People died for your right not to post your postal vote in time for it to count Molls
I just hope the Tory doesn’t win with a majority of one!
Great description of the two party leaders by a voter in a northern target seat on Five Live just now
“Boris Johnson is as mad as a box of frogs and Corbyn’s not right in the swede”
Indeed.
How is it that 3.5 years after the referendum so many journos still get played so easily by the Cummings/Brexit/Tory fake need soon machine?
Because their job is to report the news? Having listened to many podcasts with KL on them, it's clear she's no fan of the current Tory press machine, as many other journalists have expressed, they all realise they're being fed stuff by both sides. Report it, and folk like you think she's a stooge, don't report it, and the Tory party it becomes the Liberal BBC Bias, and it becomes their story all day.
Can't win.
All of this ignores the elephant of Brexit though. The Cons could (and pretty much have) no manifesto and still get an insane amount of votes purely because they claim to “Get Brexit Done”. At one point Brexit Party was polling at 25%.
Labour having the perfect manifesto but being remain would not get those voters back.
Exactly. Labour have been in a no win situation since the referendum. The majority of tory voters are pro Brexit so easy to keep them, plus getting some other voters who think Brexit is so important for some reason.
Labour could have come out as remain and lost even more pro Brexit people.
As someone said earlier - it seems labour pro brexit people are so keen on brexit they will vote tory to get it whereas pro remain tory voters still vote tory.
The realisation is that the pro brexit labour voters were probably never voting labour for the right reasons as true labour supporters could in no way vote tory, ever.
Once Brexit is "done" we will see a change.
Cancel A50 – not the right way to stop Brexit IMO
The only way to stop Brexit. The law says Britain leaves if it doesn’t.
Apologies. My understanding was that the LDs, if they had got into power, would have cancelled A50, with no further reference to the electorate. I accept that to stop Brexit we have to revoke A50. I think the only acceptable way of sanctioning that is via a second referendum.
Apologies. My understanding was that the LDs, if they had got into power, would have cancelled A50, with no further reference to the electorate. I accept that to stop Brexit we have to revoke A50. I think the only acceptable way of sanctioning that is via a second referendum.
They would. On the basis that if they won a majority with a clear policy of revoke then that was in effect a mandate to revoke.
They may have slightly overestimated their support level hence the pivoting to supporting a second referendum...
Brexit isn’t going to be ‘done’ for a decade at least. If ever. It’s taken this long to not even get interim procedures in place. The main complicated bit hasn’t even started.
If the Labour Party didn’t have such a bloody stupid ‘red unicorns’ position themselves they could be hammering this home. As it stands, it’s all ‘don't Mention the war’ instead
Farcical!
There’s some pretty eye-opening stuff on channel 4 news now from an undercover guy covering Richard Tices election campaign for the Brexit party in Hartlepool. Proper 1970’s National Front style racism 😳
If the Labour Party didn’t have such a bloody stupid ‘red unicorns’ position themselves they could be hammering this home
Corbyn did in the debate the other night. Several times.
Next.
Is that you Seamas?
He didn’t mention the elephant in the room - that Brexit negotiations that will take a decade. He said that within 6 months he’d be back from Brussels with his fantasy red unicorns withdrawal agreement