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Hmm. Bit of pot, kettle, black going on there, pal.
Nothing of the sort. I was referring to actual people that think in a certain way - I did not say all people think that way, i.e. I did not generalise, I was very specific.
there are a set of common behaviours and they quite literally aren’t like the rest I us.
Yes, like I said, you made a massive generalisation.
So this
there are a set of common behaviours and they quite literally aren’t like the rest I us
Is a generalisation (despite it being based on actual research) but this(which is your opinion)
There are a lot of people who think like that
Isn't?
That is some Johnsonian levels of hair splitting. Bravo!
So thanks in advance to the common room for the hard Brexit we’ve got coming and whatever the Tory’s decide to do with that for the next five years
Whereas you've done, what exactly besides sitting on the sidelines making pathetic noises? You've had 4 years since Corbyn became leader and done **** all with it so if anyone is to blame its people like you. Don't point the finger at the people who actually got off their arse and did something, where are your mates in the mighty Tinge party now? Oh that's right, didn't work, gave up and ****ed off. Too hard. I mean, Farage is a total ****er but at least he's a tenacious ****er, those planks had about as much commitment as a teenager that realised they looked really silly after their little flounce. Hence they ****ed off and shut up when they realised nobody was following them and the didn't really have anything new to say.
Get over the colour of the rosette and look for another party, there must be someone out there espousing blairite Liberal policies whilst being upstanding Democrats? Someone surely...
The English are selfish bastards who would rather vote to keep another 1p in their wallets and purses than pay extra to fund public services
Thanks for that. Popping back a couple of pages to report your post.
Did you even bother to read the post preceding it
Yes. Can you expand on what you wrote in such a way that it doesn't come across as anti-english? If you can, I'm all ears, but if you substitute 'english' for a minority of your choice, I'm afraid it doesn't read very well.
People have spent the last three decades saying the Tory’s are going to privatize the NHS during every election campaign (and at times in between). All that crying wolf means
The thing everyone forgets about The Boy Who Cried Wolf is that the sheep got eaten by the wolf.
Weird how all these old boomer ****s vote for the party who are going to **** the NHS - yet they're the ****s who need it the most - they're always in the hospital! I'm a millennial, eating salads, not smoking and exercising my ass off. I never go to the docs!
Every day I walk down the street and am shocked at how, in a first world country, every second person in my goddamn way has some kind of mobility issue. Move it bitch, I'm on the way to the squat rack!
I've seen that @rone
It's too good to be true !
We had Labour canvassers today they were politely pessimistic, lab majority fell from 9000 to 1800 last time but UKIP took 7000 votes & with bxp non existent, they said they'd had some good results in the doorstep today, but you could smell defeat
Shame as local.Labour candidate seems nice & out present Tory NO is a muppet
Did you see this bit too?
https://twitter.com/GrahamLeah1/status/1203768026048466944?s=09
Follow the link inside.
Are you arguing that only a state owned entity can affordably change a lightbulb? Seems unlikely since most of us work for private firms that have their lightbulbs changed without drama.
Or are you arguing that state owned entities are rubbish at negotiating contracts and private hospitals get their bulbs changed at lower cost?
It was nearer £180 to call out the local Serco contractors (known universally throughout the community hospital my wife works as at ‘Bodgit and Scarper’) to get a coat peg put up in their staff room / office.
When she said that was a ridiculous waste of money and she would take a drill in and do it by herself she was told she couldn’t as:
A. She should be treating patients whenever at work (agreed).
B. She would be personally liable if anything went wrong.
They still put coats on the backs of chairs.
As if community hospitals have the time and resource to negotiate contracts for every little thing that comes up, or even an on-call odd job man. Even if they could, a local handyman wouldn’t be able to sign up to ‘SLAs’ saying he or she could be there within two hours or whatever as they have a living to make and can’t sit around waiting to be summoned by the local hospital. It is bollocks to suggest otherwise and the days of each hospital having a full time janitor and odd job man are well gone.
It is massively disingenuous to say otherwise.
So, contracts are negotiated in big blocks that can only be covered by a cartel of large outsourcing firms. They skim a healthy profit (and have to pay their levels of management overhead) and tender low. Net result is shit service and exorbitant charges. It is a racket.
But don’t worry, under Pound Shop Trump we will sell off more and more to private companies. In the round, more money will end up in already wealthy people’s pockets and everything else will get a bit more shit.
Just been in my local and met a local candidate(hot constituency ;-)), who alleged boris is on track to get 40 seat majority.:-(
It was quite hilarious to witness my friend Shahin , tell her he respected her enormously but he would not vote for her. Had I filmed it, it would have gone viral.
My experience of Government contracting is that they are shockingly bad at negotiation - they have very little room for manoeuvre in negotiations / cannot change terms and essentially can have the rings round them. In order to achieve their affordability, loads of stuff gets left out of the core contract and these exceptional items get charged at a premium - so when things go wrong, and they frequently do, they end up paying for it. Also, they change their requirements frequently and late, which again results in expensive changes. Another big issue is frequent changes in Government staff - it's not unusual to be dealing with 2-3 different people over a couple of years and so you end up going back over / re-starting stuff which adds to the time and cost which gets added to the bill.
Whereas you’ve done, what exactly besides sitting on the sidelines making pathetic noises?
I’ll wager he’s done more to get the vote in for Labour than you have, despite being told again and again that he should abandon Labour because he critiques the path and personalities that currently have a hold on the top of the party.
I’ll wager he’s done more to get the vote in for Labour than you have
A few dozen pages back I remember something about designing posters to try to get the youth vote from local colleges out? I'm sure some of the prominent supporters on this thread have done more though.
He's still worse than Hitler though. 🙂
He's not Hitler, he's just a very naughty boy. 🙂
I've attended local Labour party AND Momentum meetings.
They are not full of Stalinist sixth formers or Hatton worshiping hypocrites.
They are attended by people who are genuinely suffering and lots of younger people who want to put a stop to these evil Tory bastards.
No champagne Socialists.
No ulterior motives.
No one wants to lynch Binners for being a bit wet.
Everyone is absolutely desperate, because people are suffering and dying due the selfish bastards who are some of the most prolific posters on this forum.
People who I try to think the best of, people who I'm trying to remain civil with.
Yep, Corbyn can be a completely obtuse old Hector and some of his fellow travellers are poisonous tossers.
So ****ing what?
I don't like the blue coconut abominations in Quality Street, but I don't bleat about it on social media every five minutes and I'll still be buying a tin.
And I'll still vote Labour, because I believe in the intrinsic decency of people.
Rone & Kimbers - re Dr Moderate....both of the poll re-workings make for encouraging reading so I live in hope.
Bit of a counterpoint - talking with a labour-supporting friend who has been door-knocking in a labour held Birmingham constituency which is not a marginal.
His summary - much support for labour but not for Corbyn; his take - Corbyn has too much baggage and is an electoral liability.
We'll find out in 4 days.
molgrips
Subscriber
Every prime minister from WW1 onwards closed mines, by the time Thatcher took over the days of coal were already well in the past.
It wasn’t the fact she closed mines – after all, there’s only so much coal – it was the way that she did it. The miners weren’t stupid, they understood their own business. She pulled the plug on all the mines, viable or otherwise, and made zero effort to instigate a managed shift in industry to give people something else to move on to. The Tower colliery is an example. Closed, then bought out by the workers and continued working for another 30 years. It closed recently because now it finally is out of coal.
She did this she was a Tory and Tories do not give a shit – this is their basic underlying principle. The whole ethos of the Tories is small government, which means letting the markets take care of everything. So yes, in theory, given a large labour force with no jobs they will either move elsewhere or some other company will move in to employ them. This is fine if you treat people as resources, but they aren’t, they are people, and if you just let the market deal with everything they will get totally **** over and their quality of life will suffer. It’s up to you whether or not you think it matters if people are suffering when you could help them.
Molgrips is a decent man and every single word of this is true.
Thatcher's legacy was the disenfranchisement of the working class, the deliberate destruction of communities and the deliberate creation of an 'underclass'.
Destroy people's hope, remove their opportunity for self improvement and then get everyone to blame them for the resulting mess.
Create the cult of the individual, destroy the idea of society and remove the shame associated with venality and greed.
Brexit was our take on the LA riots.
When nothing else is left, when you take away the things that make us human, people need very little encouragement to burn down their own houses.
Great article by Frankie Boyle in yesterday’s Guardian which sums things up perfectly
You’ll be praying they prorogue the next parliament
Love is our only defence. This week please vote tactically to get rid of these vile people who are utterly devoid of even the slightest shred of empathy or compassion. Surely, as a country, we’re better than that?
So this
- there are a set of common behaviours and they quite literally aren’t like the rest I us
Is a generalisation (despite it being based on actual research) but this(which is your opinion)
- There are a lot of people who think like that
Isn’t?
That is some Johnsonian levels of hair splitting. Bravo!
The bit you have missed is that where I say a lot of people think like that it is in the context of the people I speak to and a lot of them thinking like that. So no, it is not a generalisation
You seem to have Johnson levels of understanding. Bravo!
This week please vote tactically to get rid of these vile people who are utterly devoid of even the slightest shred of empathy or compassion.
Please.
This week please vote tactically to get rid of these vile people who are utterly devoid of even the slightest shred of empathy or compassion. Surely, as a country, we’re better than that?
Who are you talking to, people on this thread are well away of what they should do.
The country is full of people who don't have the ability to work out what is best for them or the country and are being fooled again, this time by the 'characterful and funny' prime minister.
One way of countering that is to use the same tactics over the next 5 years ready for the next election. Should be easier because Brexit will be nearing conclusion by then and the fallout can be 100% owned by the Tories, but the first step is to choose a charismatic leader that the majority of people will fall for. Better find that person and get them into a safe Labour seat now.
10 years in power
And still people are going to vote in another 5 years of the Tories 😟
Latest survation poll is not pretty
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1203827048239771648?s=19
I do wonder if the hard lefties who've spent the last couple of years using the word 'centrist' as an insult will realise that they needed those centrist votes in the end
Blame on both sides Kimbers.
This campaign hasn't been great by Labour (a bit messy & complicated to cut through) but what the **** has BJ got to do before some shit sticks to him?
& I think its not really the "centrists" who've gone to Bojo, its the Shbrexit at all costs brigade.
I was out with a mate on Saturday who's been out canvassing for the labour party. He says its been a pretty grim experience. All he's been hearing on the doorstep is how awful Jeremy Corbyn is.
Our excellent labour MP presently has a majority of 4,500. General consensus from those on the ground, who've been out campaigning, is that he'll be lucky to scrape through with a massively reduced majority, but there's a very good chance our constituency is going to go Tory. Corbyn has gone down like a cup of cold sick on the doorstep. He was an electoral liability 4 years ago, the same again 2 years ago and even more so now.
One seat closer to Johnson getting his majority.
Utterly depressing.
Who knows, maybe the shy-Tory effect has become a shy-Labour effect, polling errors, youth vote....
I've not completely given up hope. I'm also not staying up to watch the results come in.
It will be very useful for the Labour party to have 5 years to reflect on the mistakes they've made without being distracted by being in power.
All he’s been hearing on the doorstep is how awful Jeremy Corbyn is.
Again, which is why the leader is almost more important than anything else. Do those people like the tory polices, do they dislike the Labour policies or is all they care about is that they don't like Corbyn. If so that is pretty shallow but that is how it is.
is how awful Jeremy Corbyn is.
And if it comes to pass that he fails at another election will the Labour party get someone less divisive to lead them?
Blairism was flawed but it got them elected.
I do wonder if the hard lefties who’ve spent the last couple of years using the word ‘centrist’ as an insult will realise that they needed those centrist votes in the end
+1.
You don’t have to look very far on this thread to find anyone remotely centric being insulted by both sides - not directly of course.
Lizz Truss saying that they haven't got a ****ing clue about social care:
Polls can be wrong, often are. ...and even if the polls are right we still have no idea which way all the the constituencies are going.
An (apparent) 15pc lead is going to cost Boris votes as people who are voting Tory to keep Corbyn/Momentum out might decide it's in the bag and won't bother voting or will go Libdem.
This election is impossible call and has been from he beginning.
The labour party is now a completely lost cause. Its been totally taken over by the Corbynites now. They've purged the party of any meaningful dissenting voices. Jeremy's disciples now occupy all positions of power within the party
When they've lost (again) they'll blame the electorate for not being possessed with enough revolutionary zeal. No blame will be apportioned to St Jeremy and he'll either stay on or get to anoint whichever one of his nodding dogs Len and Seamas deem to be most compliant and 'on message' in the common room. And on they'll plough down their voter-repelling political cul-de-sac, letting the Tories off the hook yet again. Dominic Cummings will give thanks to the lord for the day the sixth formers voted Jeremy Corbyn leader of the labour party
I don't know how we're going to stop the Tory's destroying this country completely, but this present labour party leadership can't or won't do it. They seem hell bent on repeating the 80's all over again. Its bloody tragic.
This election is impossible call and has been fromt he beginning.
While “impossible to call” is always true, looking at these polls, it does seem a bit “Black Knight” to keep repeating it as regards this election.
I fear Friday 13th will bring us calls of… “All right, we’ll call it a draw”… from what’s left of the Corbyn fan base.
Anyway… my postal vote is in for our Labour candidate.
It's not that Corbyn is the only flaw. Their lack of balls to put a stop to the shitshow that is Brexit will cost them dear, whichever way it goes at the polls.
Meanwhile binners - the electorate are facing bare-faced lies reported without challenge.
And Labour have still managed to catch up in the polls!
Here's the BBC comparing like-for-like in their usual manner:
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1203940035210428417?s=20
Just because JC doesn't perfectly represent your view of what Labour should be, doesn't mean you get to decide that the "party leadership can’t or won’t do it"
Just because JC doesn’t perfectly represent your view of what Labour should be, doesn’t mean you get to decide that the “party leadership can’t or won’t do it”
He’s voting Labour!! Pointing out why not enough other people are is important.
By all means be amazed that people will vote for Johnson, despite knowing that he is lying to them… how can he get away with it? The alternative should clearly be preferable in so so many seats. But so many good candidates are hampered by their leader.
And Labour have still managed to catch up in the polls!
Going from abysmal to merely terrible isn't really progress, is it?
I get the feeling that the ground is being prepared for another round of declaring not losing as badly as people predicted to be some kind of victory. The same as last time
“All right, we’ll call it a draw”
He’s voting Labour!! Pointing out why not enough other people are is important.
But he's not pointing it out. He's making a completely factually untrue statement.
I'm saying that there are many things at play here - lots of them are completely out of the hands of the Labour leadership.
Going from abysmal to merely terrible isn’t really progress, is it?
It's the pattern that's interesting. Different media conduct rules apply during an election.
Last time with May, we saw the BBC become much fairer during the election. The rise in the polls was astounding.
This time, I haven't seen the same balance restore on the BBC - They seem to be using the same tactics as Boris in that they think they can get away with framing things in the same twisted way as that tweet above.
They are doing pretty well against huge opposing forces in my opinion. I don't buy any papers, but I do look at all the headlines when I'm at the local co-op. Is it any surprise that people are put off Corbyn? Look at all the 'Russian links' headlines on Sunday vs all the ones you never saw about already proven links between the current Tory leadership and Russia.
It’s not that Corbyn is the only flaw.
Agree. For me there are three issues that stop me voting Labour this time: Brexit Policy, the pork barrel menifesto, Momentum/Corbyn. Any one of them would (probably) be a barrier to me voting Labour this time. The fact the omnishambles of an administration aren't losing by a landslide suggests there are a lot of people who feel the same way.
Brexit will go away, but Momentum won't, so Labours path forward is set in stone.
Win or lose, will the Torys find a way to ditch Boris post Brexit and pull themselves into some kind of credible shape before the next election? I wouldn't bet against it.
Plus we're due a recession between now and the next election which ought to be electorally disasterous for whoever is in power. [1]
[1] If there's a majority government that goes 5 years and I'm not betting on that!
there are many things at play here
Of course that is true.
lots of them are completely out of the hands of the Labour leadership
Of course that is true.
Now we agree on that…
Corbyn’s history, personality, and approach to important policy matters have turned into a turn off even for many died in the wool Labour voters, never mind those new to voting Labour in 2017, or those with a pattern of voting Tory who need to swap to Labour for Labour to win.
Labour is still attempting to put Brexit to one side in this debate… it should be pushing home that Brexit is a process that will take years, and we need to either prepare for it properly, with a shorter simpler route to a new close UK:EU relationship, or stop it completely. It’s a good policy. But they are allowing Johnson to dominate this issue, and this election, with his “Get Brexit Done” lie.
https://twitter.com/denismacshane/status/1203937289182875648?s=21
Agree Kelvin
a lot of leave voters going to be turning on Johnson before long
turning
...and Boris's approval ratings are already utterly dismal. I doubt Boris will be fighting the next election even if he wins a majority Thursday which is far from a certainty.
a lot of leave voters going to be turning on Johnson before long
In 2/3 years. But by 5 years we’ll have new gerrymandered seats, and a built in majority of Tory seats based on an even lower share of the vote.
There is also the fear that it can be turned into “politicians are all the same, none of them deliver what they promise” nonsense that is helping Johnson this time around. People think politicians can’t be trusted… and so vote for the biggest liar in politics anyway.
Corbyn’s history, personality, and approach to important policy matters have turned into a turn off even for many died in the wool Labour voters
But the question is - does what they feel about his "history, personality or approach to important policy matters" actually hold water.
Do the stories of him meeting the various 'scary' figures stand up when examined, or even when compared against his equivalent tories. For me the answer is 'no' they don't. So it's not his history that's the problem, it's the reporting and analysis that's the problem.
Yes, it gives the Tories an easy goal, but only because they know that the media will repeat it ad infinitum, while completely ignoring how many times they met with the same figures.
Then you've got brexit. I too was very disappointed that they couldn't come out strongly Remain - especially when it came to calling out the vote spending fraud, but I completely understand why they are trying to be neutral now - and let's face it, this new Labour-promised referendum is the best chance that remain have had since 2016.
Unfortunately, the Leavers know this, so now find it difficult to vote Labour this time around.
Labour policy on Brexit is now fine with me. Utterly failing to successful challenge Johnson’s pretend policy is not. They need to be showing Leave voters how Johnson is conning them, and, importantly, why they (and all of us) should have a say in the Brexit process, including stopping it if what is being delivered doesn’t work for them (all of us). There are many ways to be “neutral”, but currently it feels a bit “Brexit is fine, have it if you want it, you may as well vote for Johnson’s people because he’s saying it’ll be quick, easy, and purely beneficial… oh, and he’a strong man who’ll stop the Scots and Ulster people from leaving the UK.”
Gosh. Yet again the online help calculates me as Green Party voter. With my area currently Liberal but a scrape last time and historically a Labour borough, I'm very much confused who to vote for. I think thats Labour, but I'm uncertain of Corbyn as PM* although like some of the policies. I'm pro EU but am starting to feel like a liberal vote is wasted vs the Conservatives.
*There was a big discussion on LBC today that Corbynb's name has been removed from most Labour propaganda material as even the party think his name reflects negatively
Help!
Those online things put me…
SNP>LibDem>Green>Labour
But my Labour vote was easy in a Tory/Labour marginal. Don’t worry about Corbyn, he won’t get a majority, please don’t be put off by thoughts of him as PM. What seat are you in?
What seat are you in?
London / Enfield North.
Don’t worry about Corbyn, he won’t get a majority, please don’t be put off by thoughts of him as PM
Bear with me I'm not the most politically astute - so if Labour win, they'll oust him as Leader? So we'll end up with another unelected PM and just who might that be?
If Labour are the biggest party, Corbyn will probably be PM, but the “brakes” placed on him (or more importantly Milne, Murray & Len) will be immense. Other voices in the Labour Party, and which other parties prop up Labour, will be strong.
Realistically, the Conservatives will have the most seats… the election now is all about stopping Johnson getting a majority, or more realistically, making his majority as small as possible to give some power to his opponents to reign in his worst excesses.
Enfield North
https://comparethetacticals.com/enfield-north
Looks to me that in your seat voting Labour makes the most sense. This election is not the time to vote for a distant third placed party in a FPTP system when so much is at stake if we return too many blue MPs.
and he’a strong man who’ll stop the Scots and Ulster people from leaving the UK.”
He can't say either because he's been saying for decades he thinks Ulster people *should* be leaving the UK and because he may well need to do a deal with the SNP which will require a legally binding Indyref in year 1 of his government.
*There was a big discussion on LBC today that Corbynb’s name has been removed from most Labour propaganda material as even the party think his name reflects negatively
I can't remember the correct numbers but I think his image is only on 10pc of Labour campaigning literature but is on 60pc of the other parties campaigning literature! 😀
Gosh. Yet again the online help calculates me as Green Party voter. With my area currently Liberal but a scrape last time and historically a Labour borough, I’m very much confused who to vote for. I think thats Labour, but I’m uncertain of Corbyn as PM* although like some of the policies. I’m pro EU but am starting to feel like a liberal vote is wasted vs the Conservatives.
Only you can decide but Libdem is a vote recorded as a clear 'remain' vote and if they win it's proof of a clear remain seat. Nice clear signal.
If Labour are the biggest party, Corbyn will probably be PM,
Libdems and SNP will not work with Torys so unless Boris wins an actual workable majority Labour will be forming the government even if they are not the biggest party. My gut feel is that part of the price of that would be for Corbyn to quit but who knows.
Blairism was flawed but it got them elected.
In 97 Labour got 43.2% of the vote.
2001 40.7% ,
2005 35.2%.
2017 Labour got 40.0% of the vote.
Due to FPTP the number of seats obviously don't work out proportionally, but this idea that 2017 was an abject failure by Corbyn doens't really add up.
I don’t trust the libDems not to roll over at the first sniff of power.
Nice clear signal.
But wasted vote, facilitating a Borisexit.
Please, to stop Boris,
vote Labour.
I don’t trust the libDems not to roll over at the first sniff of power.
If it gets us a referendum in 2020, with another general election a few months after that, fine by me. The Tories winning seats because people won’t vote LibDem (for fear of them propping up the Tories) to stop the Tories winning seats is how Cameron got his majority. It’s maddening that the action of people to the coalition years worked so well for the Tories… they cleaned up mostly by taking seats off the LibDems.
I don’t trust the libDems not to roll over at the first sniff of power.
There is no way they're going do that after what happened last time.
In 97 Labour got 43.2% of the vote.
2001 40.7% ,
2005 35.2%.2017 Labour got 40.0% of the vote.
Due to FPTP the number of seats obviously don’t work out proportionally, but this idea that 2017 was an abject failure by Corbyn doens’t really add up.
In 97 etc Labour were beating credible opponents. In 2017 Labour were trying to beat a Tory part in chaos that had caused chaos with a leader who turned out to be useless.
You can't ignore the opponent.
It's like getting the bus
There might not be one going directly to your destination, but you shouldn't get the one going to the other way out of pique
Thanks for the responses to my post, that made things clearer. Well, obvious.
Helping Johnson get his majority, because you don’t want Corbyn to be PM… is like walking bare footed everywhere because you don’t like the colour of your shoes.
[everyone else make up their own tortured analogy to bash the message home - if in your seat the Labour candidate can deny Johnson a seat, ignore your concerns and get on and vote Labour, please - if you are in a seat where the choices are different - do whatever you need to do to deny Johnson a little bit of power]
It’s like getting the bus
There might not be one going directly to your destination, but you shouldn’t get the one going to the other way out of pique
No, but getting on a bus that is going to ask the passengers which way they want to go later and you know the passengers are 50/50 split so it's effectively a coin toss gets you nowhere and sends a signal to everyone that you're happy with either destination.
In a Lib/Lab marginal I'd go Lib this time if the objective was to remain.
In 97 etc Labour were beating credible opponents. In 2017 Labour were trying to beat a Tory part in chaos that had caused chaos with a leader who turned out to be useless.
In 2017 we had the confusion of Brexit which has clearly seriously muddied the waters in how people vote.
6 weeks or so ago I was of the opinion that a more centrist, likable leader would of walked this election for Labour, but now I'm not so sure.
Brexit has skewed everything.
What policies could a centre-left Labour party possibly offer to a remainer Conservative to get them to switch?
We've seen that the so called Tory 'moderates' haven't switched en-masse to the Lib Dems, despite effectively offering a manifesto that should 100% appeal to them perfectly. Ok, so Tory polls have been buoyed by the Breixt party decision not to stand but by how much?
Brexit party vote was around 13% throughout Sept-November. Cons about 35%. Brexit now down to 3 and Cons to 43%. The 'moderate' remainer Torys simply haven't switched to the Lib Dems, just as they would not have switched to a centre left Labour party, and even if they did it would still make the polls roughly even.
Not a walk in the park like so many seem to think.
Not a walk in the park like so many seem to think.
It’s FPTP… what the big two parties can achieve as regards voters swapping parties at a general election is entirely different to what a smaller third party like the LibDems can, at this kind of election. Some might say that’s a good thing, looking at how well both UKIP and Brexit Party have done in past, yet failed (and will fail) to make a dent in Westminster seats. I don’t agree. Lack of representation, and everyone having to revert back to two party politics at general elections, helps give rise to the attitudes that fed much of the Brexit vote, and Johnson’s support.
Chris Williamson (DerbyNorth MP - kicked out of labour, now running as a independent) was posting fliers through doors yesterday, and i managed to catching him before he got to the next house. I got into a polite conversation where i outlined the fact that he would split the vote and get a tory win for Derbyshire north. He seemed utterly convinced that he would win. It frustrates me how little co-ordination there is against the hard brexiting Tory government. I think Derby North will get a torys MP, because Lib dems and Chris Williamson are too selfish to stand down and let the likely competitive candidate stand against the Torys.
Any other election and i think its fair everyone has a party to vote for. But this is not the same as other elections.
No, but getting on a bus that is going to ask the passengers which way they want to go later and you know the passengers are 50/50 split so it’s effectively a coin toss gets you nowhere and sends a signal to everyone that you’re happy with either destination.In a Lib/Lab marginal I’d go Lib this time if the objective was to remain.
Agreed, kind of, except I think the Labour 'leave' destination would be a good chunk nicer and ultimately way less unacceptable than any tory one so the analogy isn't [i]quite[/i] right. Like getting on a bus that's either going to Cullercoats or Tynemouth, either are fine. The tory bus'd take you straight to Horden in the 80s and make you and your kids work on it 6 days a week.
I'd still prefer to Remain though.
It’s FPTP… what the big two parties can achieve as regards voters swapping parties at a general election is entirely different to what a smaller third party like the LibDems can, at this kind of election.
That's true, but I still struggle to see where a reamin hard centre-left Labour would get it's votes from.
If we take that chart, and assume that all 30% Labour leavers go Tory and all remainer Torys go Labour then it cancels it out. Torys still get Brexit voters, Labour still pick up some Lib Dem voters.
We are still in a similar boat. Why would a leave voting Tory vote for a pro-remain Labour? What possible policies could they offer, what level of charismatic leader would that require?
Where else could they get votes from?
In a Lib/Lab marginal I’d go Lib this time if the objective was to remain.
That could easily help hand Tories a majority which would guarantee you'd not get your remain objective.
Due to FPTP the number of seats obviously don’t work out proportionally, but this idea that 2017 was an abject failure by Corbyn doens’t really add up.
Meaningless twaddle. He wasn't PM, was he? So it can't be counted as a win, even with the most generous of spin.
As noted above, a credible opposition would have already deported Boris and his mates to the colonies.
So it can’t be counted as a win, even with the most generous of spin.
“All right, we’ll call it a draw”
In a Lib/Lab marginal I’d go Lib this time if the objective was to remain.
That could easily help hand Tories a majority which would guarantee you’d not get your remain objective.
No it can't. It's a lib/lab marginal, the clue is in the name.
Meaningless twaddle. He wasn’t PM, was he? So it can’t be counted as a win, even with the most generous of spin.
I don't think anyone has claimed it as a win have they?
The point I'm making is Corbyn got a similar percentage of the vote as Blair in 2001 and 5% more in 2005.
The fact that those votes weren't in the correct seats is vital, but to make out 2017 was this disastrous landslide and Corbyn was unpopular isn't really true is it? He was roughly on pre Iraq Blair levels, and then more popular than post Iraq Blair.
6 weeks or so ago I was of the opinion that a more centrist, likable leader would of walked this election for Labour, but now I’m not so sure.
This idea of a centrist cleaning up seems to be an unshakable belief, but where's the evidence for it? Both Labour and the Tories had abandoned the centre ground by 2017, yet cleaned up something like 80% of the vote between them. Fast-forward to 2019 and we see the TINGers polling at zero, and the Lib Dems failing to make any significant headway.
No it can’t. It’s a lib/lab marginal, the clue is in the name.
Ok I should have typed more carefully. It can help get Tories into no 10.
Both Labour and the Tories had abandoned the centre ground by 2017, yet cleaned up something like 80% of the vote between them. Fast-forward to 2019 and we see the TINGers polling at zero, and the Lib Dems failing to make any significant headway.
FPTP voting means most people have to gravitate to the two big parties. In the past people could claim that it made them too similar as they chased the “centre” voters (it was never true, there were always major differences), but there’s a new game in town… and anyone who watched USA politics from the tea party onwards knew it was coming in some respect… the right have been purifying… but the big surprise here is the left can use similar tactics… knowing that the toxicity of the Tory brand will help them keep a big chunk of the “centre” voters onside (although it was never going to be enough of them to get a majority of seats).
but to make out 2017 was this disastrous landslide and Corbyn was unpopular
I didn't make out it was a landslide, though. You've made that assertion all by yourself.
Corbyn is unpopular. You may not agree if you are of a Labour bent, that's OK. In some constituencies you could elect a donkey in a red rossette; look at Hazel Blears in Salford. Poisonous cheating dwarf, but still nodded through.
But to more objectove eyes he's a figure that divides, not unites. And the point made earlier that Tory's have the monopoly on Cronyism, look to Diane Abbot. Why is she still in the Shadow Cabinet? It's not because she's good, is it? Could it be coz she bumped uglies with Jez in the good old days?
All he’s been hearing on the doorstep is how awful Jeremy Corbyn is.
I wonder why that is? Hardly a surprise after two years of media mud-slinging, enthusiastically supported and amplified by those in his own party willing to repeat barefaced lies and smears. The blairites look like they're about to achieve their primary goal, at the cost of millions who need a labour govt. If they think they're just going to walk back in though, they have another thing coming.
I wonder why that is?
Ermm...
blairites ...think they’re just going to walk back in though, they have another thing coming.
That'll teach them! Well done!
Meanwhile, in the rest of the country, we'll wish there was a proper opposition.