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And still the media welcome that commitment as “unachievable”
The BBC Breakfast interview was particularly poor. Laying into Angela Rayner because 20,000 teachers wouldn't materialise out of thin air on December 13, and because a pledge to have 45,000 extra qualified teachers by the end of a first Labour term was 10,000 short of what NAO reckons we need.
Thought she handled it pretty well, certainly Labour's best media performer.
Also, when TF is Johnson going to go before Andrew Neil? I mean, it couldn’t be as bad as Corbyn, shirley? So, what’s he got to lose?
He's running his campaign straight from the Trump playbook. Doesn't want to be questioned on his personal life (taxes for trump/kids for BJ), doesn't want to be held to proper scrutiny which will show him up, threaten the press when they do things he doesn't like. Is this a man you can really vote for?
One slightly amusing thing about my constituency is that the only leaflet I've received is one that says "vote for me (Tory) unless you want the SNP to win and that means Indyref2". Basically the Tory candidate is extoling the virtues of voting tactically which is something I will likely be doing just not in the way he thinks. I voted no in the independence referendum but I think I'll be voting SNP in an attempt to keep the Tories from getting a majority.
And still the media welcome that commitment as “unachievable”
I heard it and my first thought was it's unachievable, assuming the plan really is to impose a cap. There's two ways to do it, move kids around schools or making schools split all classes with (say) 31 into two classes of (say) 15 and 16. Neither seems remotely practical.
My daughter's class has 2 TAs in addition to a teacher. If they split her class would they hire another teacher and pair of TAs? If they don't double up on TAs as well as the teacher the staff to child ratio hardly changes. ....*and* they'd need to build another classroom. Alternatively they have to farm out the excess kids to other schools which isn't good for the kids, the parents or the environment/traffic.
So yeah, unacheivable and counter productive.
A better way to reduce class sizes is to simply fund schools to the point where (in time) class sizes can be under 30. Accpet there will be places where that's just not practical in some years in some exceptional places.
Crazy idea… more trained teachers. Just an idea.
I voted no in the independence referendum but I think I’ll be voting SNP in an attempt to keep the Tories from getting a majority.
Yep , I’m a no voter who has just posted off my first vote for the SNP in a hope of getting rid of our Tory mp . I just hope there is an acknowledgement after the election that not everyone who voted SNP is in favour of independence .
My kids primary school runs a pre-school reading club for kids who struggle (get little help at home?), whenever I drop my kids off I go past the classroom they run it in, usually see some of the kids attacking a muffin that I'm assuming teachers have brought in for them. I then feel guilty that my kids are well fed.
I think labours school breakfast policy is an excellent one , but there deep problems in this country if it's needed.
Crazy idea… more trained teachers. Just an idea.
COMMUNIST!!!! 😉
Its mental that the press are all screaming about the how the labour party are going to be funding all this, and rightfully so, as it all does seem to be a bit 'moon on a stick' which is heavily dependent on magic money trees
But apparently Johnson is going to be promising a round of tax cuts today, after all their pledges of increased public spending
Thats an even less credible position, which isn't being held up to the same scrutiny.
I suppose it all comes down to what you think our national priorities are.
At this election, looking at the present state of the country would you like
A) a party committed to more funding for education and the NHS and who are serious about addressing homelessness
or
B) a couple of quid a week off you tax bill
Given the recent voting record of this country, I'm not optimistic
Crazy idea… more trained teachers. Just an idea.
How long does it take to train a teacher from scratch? How long should a parliament be sitting for? The fact the former is greater than the latter tells you why that pledge isn't made.
One year.
Five years.
1 < 5
Unless “by scratch” you mean all their education before their teacher training.
Max class sizes of 30 pupils is a totally achievable and meagre aim in the grand scheme of things. Have our sights been set so low? How? Who by? We’re mugs.
One year.
Only if you start with a graduate. A full time education degree takes four years https://www.ntu.ac.uk/study-and-courses/courses/find-your-course/education/ug/2019-20/primary-education
and then you will need to add a probationary period before they are fully qualified. It takes longer to train a teacher than a fixed term parliament lasts.
There’s two ways to do it, move kids around schools or making schools split all classes with (say) 31 into two classes of (say) 15 and 16. Neither seems remotely practical.
Back when I was at school we learned maths had 6 classes of ~32 kids in each year. Getting under 30 would have meant 32*6/7 = 7 classes of 27-28 kids, not double the number.
My daughter’s class has 2 TAs in addition to a teacher. If they split her class would they hire another teacher and pair of TAs?
My girlfriend is a TA in a primary school. She's one of two in her entire school. I don't know where you're getting one teacher and two TAs per class from, that seems ludicrous to me. Maybe what they need there is smaller classes...?
Only if you start with a graduate.
Start with graduates then.
Other routes should stay open, and be increased, but if you want an increase in qualified teaching staff in a short period, there is one of your routes. Want more routes? There are schools with tiny class sizes (fee paying)… try and poach their staff.
It takes longer to train a teacher than a fixed term parliament lasts.
Well, if you only look at the longest route, taking non graduates, yes. If you look at graduates (fresh, or from other “industries”, or currently TAs and HLTAs) it’s one or two years.
Max class size of 30 is completely doable, and affordable by the UK.
Crazy idea… more trained teachers. Just an idea.
They would also need more rooms. Just saying.
Or not shortening the school week, and not reducing non academic time in schools (such as PE). Just saying.
Want more routes? There are schools with tiny class sizes (fee paying)… try and poach their staff.
Assuming they are qualified teachers in the first place which won't necessarily be true. The point I was trying to make is that the length of time such a commitment would take to deliver would in all likelihood mean that it would not be delivered until the next parliament meaning that the government that enacted such a commitment wouldn't get the benefits and given the relatively short lived focus of our system (see examples wrt social care, pensions etc) it means that good long term policies don't get enacted.
Five years is doable. Both Labour and LibDems are committed to raising the number of teachers in that time. Such meagre aims being met with such baseless derision is telling.
Back when I was at school we learned maths had 6 classes of ~32 kids in each year.
Yes, in thousands of schools a Class Size Cap will be relatively starighforward to conform to. Just build one more class room for each year groups hire a teacher and TAs, extend the other facilities and away you go. (Six Form entry seems like a staggering number to me, where did you live Shenzeng?)
In thousands of other schools (single and double form entry schools which I suspect are the norm) it will be impossible/a nightmare.
I bet there are *far* more single form entry schools than there are 6 form entry schools.
Max class size of 30 is completely doable, and affordable by the UK.
"Max class size of 30" is not the same as "class size capped at 30 in every school over a single parliament". One is perfectly reasonable (as long as you allow reasonable exceptions), the other is mental.
It takes longer to train a teacher than a fixed term parliament lasts.
I don't think teachers are the bottleneck here. Does the policy even promise each class with have a qualified teacher? I assume no in which case they could meet the promise by giving the extra classes a TA and splitting the teachers time 50/50. (I'm sure they won't but they *could* if they had to and it would still meet the promise.)
The problem is moving kids arouns schools & building extra classrooms/schools. It's just totally impractical and not going to happen. And will be very unpopular - my kids are happy where they are. If they have to move half way through primary school I'm not going to be very chuffed. Plus to ensure every class is under 30 you're going to have loads of remote places with class sizes of 15, and doubleing the size of the school to achieve it.
...and when all that's done, you can get your life the number of TAs will have dropped of a cliff so the tutor/pupil ratio won't be that much better.
Do you people realise how many ex-teachers there are out there who would be more than happy to go back into the profession for reasonable pay and conditions. The world is running with ex-teachers, literally, who've found better pay and conditions elsewhere. And there's not much point training more teachers when after a few years in the profession they'll be off to greener, tastier grass.
Teachers are undervalued, underpaid, overworked, insulted, derided, threatened... change that and there will be more teachers than teaching jobs.
you’re going to have loads of remote places with class sizes of 15
Well, those few schools with class sizes of 15/16 will be hitting the sweet spot that studies have shown to work best. That’s a side effect I think we can live with as a country… and will even out fast anyway… parents will want to send their kids to schools with less than 20 kids in class (but they will still be rare as hell).
Edit: I was lucky enough to go to a remote school with small class sizes (long since closed down - yey, vote Tory) so I have no fear of such an outcome, even if it was likely.
Teachers are undervalued, underpaid, overworked, insulted, derided, threatened… change that and there will be more teachers than teaching jobs.
Edit: a good opportunity for me to agree with TJ wholeheartedly. It’s been too long! Listen to him.
Looks like the project to replace the Conservative Party with the Conservative Brexit Party is continuing apace. Brexit Party MEPs are leaving their party and backing this new monstrosity. If you were a Conservative voter in the past (the party of business and personal liberty etc) please have a close look at what you will be voting for if you support the party with that name this time.
On TTIP
Not in any detail. AFAIC they couldn’t get agreement from all the member states so it went ‘No deal’.
It's didn't go "no deal" it went "maintaining our current status quo" which is remaining as we are.
This kind of bullshit use of language and conflation irritates the hell out of me.
Looks like the project to replace the Conservative Party with the Conservative Brexit Party is continuing apace.
Summed up perfectly in this Guardian article from a couple of months back
The Tories have lost their ideology. Now they are merely the party of resentment
What does the Conservative party stand for in 2019? If you survey the central tenets of Tory ideology from the past 50 years, it is hard to find a single one that is still intact.
They morphed into the Brexit party months ago and are now carrying on down that ever-further right trajectory of small-minded insular nationalism
At this election, looking at the present state of the country would you like
A) a party committed to more funding for education and the NHS and who are serious about addressing homelessness
or
B) a couple of quid a week off you tax bill
Given the recent voting record of this country, I’m not optimistic
I share your pessimism. Labour are committing to at least try and sort out some of the shit in this country but people expect it all to be free. To sort out the mess money needs to be spent and that money comes from the people in the country. A Tory win is clearly a sign that nobody really gives a shit about all the stuff they claim to when it may impact them just a tiny amount.
The Tory proposition is that they will “undo” some of their own cuts using money they said we didn’t have. They will also reduce some of the damage the fear of Hard Brexit is having by increasing the certainty that a Hard Brexit is coming. And people will vote for that nonsense, which is maddening.
To sort out the mess money needs to be spent and that money comes from the people in the country.
Not all of it - taxing foreign companies doing business here will bring money into the country.
Just to prove the point that the Tory Party is now really the Brexit Party and the two are indivisible...
Three MEPs quit Brexit party to back Conservatives
Nige is going to be most put out that there really is no point to them any more, and even his own MEP's can see it. I wonder if he'll abandon this party a la UKIP and go on to set up the Brexity Brexity Brexit McBrexitface party?
Not all of it – taxing foreign companies doing business here will bring money into the country.
Not quite. It will prevent some money leaving the country.
Not all of it – taxing foreign companies doing business here will bring money into the country.
Getting rid of
Not quite. It will prevent some money leaving the country.
Unless the tax bill is subsidised by takings from other countries.. but not sure if there is a commercial reason to stay if that were the case.
If Amazon stopped operating in the UK AND we had Brexit then someone would have to setup a retailer in the UK to fulfil the same niche. It would be interesting how that panned out.
Getting rid of corporation stealth tax would encourage companies to setup here and bring money into the country.
Why is corporation tax a stealth tax? Everyone knows about it. It's only payable on cash that you sit on instead of paying workers or spending. Try harder Mr Troll!
10 years of torys, and yet people going to food banks will still vote for them!!?!?!
Who do you vote for if your cupboards are empty?
Why is corporation tax a stealth tax? Everyone knows about it. It’s only payable on cash that you sit on instead of paying workers or spending. Try harder Mr Troll!
It's a stealth tax because people think they're not paying it. Like every other tax it's passed on to the customer. Which would be you and I.
Like every other tax it’s passed on to the customer
Maybe. Possibly. Often not. Sometimes. Perhaps. It depends.
The problem is moving kids arouns schools & building extra classrooms/schools. It’s just totally impractical and not going to happen.
Are you labouring under the misapprehension that schools have shrunk?
My girlfriend is a TA in a primary school. She’s one of two in her entire school. I don’t know where you’re getting one teacher and two TAs per class from, that seems ludicrous to me. Maybe what they need there is smaller classes…?
It's all complex ... depends on the amount of "care in the community" that school does and if the kids needing additional help bring their own funding... how many of them require a full time TA to stop them hurting other children etc.
As I say complex... the more violent and/or disruptive they are generally the more funding they bring... the TA's get cycled because they get worn out being spat on and punched .. so it often takes more than 1 TA to cover a particularly disruptive child
(OH is actually a qualified teacher but was employed as a SEND TA)
Nige is going to be most put out that there really is no point to them any more, and even his own MEP’s can see it. I wonder if he’ll abandon this party a la UKIP and go on to [s] set up the Brexity Brexity Brexit McBrexitface party[/s] the House of Lords?
Plenty of ways to encourage people to become teachers like free bursaries for them to teaching qualifications.
We have a health service heavily dependent on immigrants because Osbourne cut the bursaries for nursing degrees - like someone is going to want to enter a profession where you end up with £30k+ debt to earn £16k a year.
The reason foreign companies would come to the UK is to access a profitable and thriving market and has a motivated, skilled workforce. So you'd chose a country where a significant part of the population are work-shy xenophobes and intent on building a barrier to trade with its neighbours exactly fits that bill?
10 years of torys, and yet people going to food banks will still vote for them!!?!?!
I know its astonishing. It the greatest trick the Tories pull, convincing people to vote against their own self-interest.
Edit: a good opportunity for me to agree with TJ wholeheartedly. It’s been too long! Listen to him.
Rather than getting insulting, Kelvin, try a reasoned argument against the points I make. TJ hasn't posted on this thread in while so you must be making a reference to the we're-not-racist-but thread where TJ did his best to insult me but in fact just did a TJ.
Teachers are undervalued, underpaid, overworked, insulted, derided, threatened… change that and there will be more teachers than teaching jobs.
Now check out teachers payscales compared with other professions requiring similar qualifications and commitment.
Now check out the amount of admin, meetings, preparation, marking and yes, teaching, that teachers do for that pay. And the amount of hassle they deal with from their bosses, parents and pupils.
Now check out the number of threads started on STW over the years to attack teachers. Check the number of anti-teacher posts while you're at it.
There are many more ex-teachers on this forum than teachers and that should tell you soomthing. The medical scientists are still medical scientists, the IT people still work in IT, the taxi driver still drives a taxi. What other profoession that requires similar personal investment to get in has so many people quit and do something completely different, or move abroad for better conditions?
I know I'm wasting my keystrokes, your personal attitude to me is programmed by my ex-profession, as is that of some other forum members. It's one of the reasons I chose the pseudo, if you want to get a handle on someone's mindset really quickly, tell them you're a teacher.
If the UK wants an education system to match Finland then start by treating teachers the way Fins treat their teachers.
Edit: a good opportunity for me to agree with TJ wholeheartedly. It’s been too long! Listen to him.
Edukator looks to me that kelvin may have made a typo and put TJ instead of Edukator?
Maybe he can confirm?
Yeah, apologies, I got confused. Anyway, I agree entirely with the bit I quoted, whoever said it (sorry Ed).
Teachers are undervalued, underpaid, overworked, insulted, derided, threatened… change that and there will be more teachers than teaching jobs.
This is the truth.
Has #page48 been done in this thread yet? This above all else is the most compelling reason to vote anything but Conservative
I did wonder why Ed went postal at someone who appeared to be agreeing with him.
Plenty of ways to encourage people to become teachers like free bursaries for them to teaching qualifications.
The bursaries are only available to those who already have degrees...
DavidB
Subscriber
Has #page48 been done in this thread yet? This above all else is the most compelling reason to vote anything but Conservative
It sums up this election
'getting brexit done' the tory manifesto is so vague, but their supporters dont care about anything else
it truly is a victory for the hard right, Tories are simply Blukip now
-See BXP ltd defections to Tories, as much as I like to see them attacking each other, it helps Johnson solidify even more leave votes
Has #page48 been done in this thread yet? This above all else is the most compelling reason to vote anything but Conservative.
What has replaced the Conservative party is a team that haven’t exactly disguised their contempt for the rule of law and our courts.
Saw this on twitter just now…
https://twitter.com/femi_sorry/status/1202531750037073920?s=21
…was employed as a SEND TA
Thank her from all of us, please. Bloody tough job. Schools (and LEAs) are current stuck between being mandated to provide this care (it’s much more than teaching) and not having the funds to do so (which again makes it harder for those doing it as they’re over stretched).
So, do we think Johnson is waiting for all his Home Counties postal votes to come in before sitting down with Neil (refusing to answer his question and repeating his slogans), or will he duck doing so entirely to show the BBC who’s boss and avoid looking even more like Trump than he has in interviews with Peston and Marr?
And the “can’t find time in his busy schedule” bullshit doesn’t wash with anyone…
https://twitter.com/spittingcat/status/1202593388610146304?s=21
do we think Johnson is waiting for all his Home Counties postal votes to come in before sitting down with Neil (refusing to answer his question and repeating his slogans), or will he duck doing so entirely
I think he'd lose less votes ducking it than doing it at and therefore doing it would be a mistake. I think the same probably applied to Corbyn.
For all the other smaller party leaders they've got more to gain doing it than they have to lose so avoiding it would be a mistake.
No doubt in mind that he'll duck it.
He was shredded by Neil on the Brexit deal; has seen other party leaders exposed; Neil has questions johnson can't or won't answer; there is no upside for him - other than quieting those calling him a coward.
The decision has been/will be taken by his minders.
No morals, no scruples, no integrity; a stranger to the truth.
Loathsome.
Yeah, apologies, I got confused.
LOL - haven't written that for a while. Or felt so irritated by what thankfully turned out to be a typo.
I was so pissed off at being so gratuitously picked on that I never even considered a typo, and I'm so used to teachers being slagged off it didn't surprise me from anyone, even ever reasonable Kelvin (in fact that pissd me off even more). So pissed off I looked outside and decided it was time for a thrash on the MTB in some glorious sunshine, I'm now back sweaty, grubby and doubly happy having caught up here.
Thanks for great afternoon, Kelvin !
Glad to help you get out for a spin! And sorry again. And I agree with you.
I see Sajid Javid has been lying again, this time about the current levels of homelessness, he really is an odious lying little toad and deserves an old fashioned re-education as to why lying is wrong.
Yawn...yet more tory spun lies on homelessness
gratuitously picked on
(Six Form entry seems like a staggering number to me, where did you live Shenzeng?)
I never really stopped to think about it. It was a regular "county high school" at the time, I've just looked on their website now (they call themselves a 'technology college' these days and it says their "admission number" - which I presume to mean the annual intake - is 158.
My junior school was smaller - similar sized classes but two per year so circa 250 kids in all I guess. Infant school I don't really remember now.
Who actually believes Johnson ( I know, I can stop right there) does quadratic equations (or to quote his Dad, could even spell it) to relax in the evening
The man can't understand that his manifesto results in more tax coming in than not and therefore is a tax hike. How is that that Corbyn is the unelectable one.
Which one of the suggestions here:
https://www.linguee.fr/francais-anglais/traduction/agression+gratuite.html
would you prefer, Chromolyolly'? Unless that's just a piss take.
Does he do quadratic equations whilst painting toy buses?
General election 2019: Andrew Neil issues interview challenge to Johnson https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50679252
This is a strong challenge!
^ I was just about to post exactly the same thing.
If he can't stand up to Neil, how's he going to negociate future trade deals with the E.U, China, USA etc. He'll get chewed up and spat out...
I don't pretend to fully understand this stuff, but isn't the BBC in breach of, uh, something if BJ doesn't agree to an interview?
I don’t pretend to fully understand this stuff, but isn’t the BBC in breach of, uh, something if BJ doesn’t agree to an interview?
They can't really force him on, however it did seem like Johnson out maneuvered the BBC/Neil.
This call out is much needed, and the timing after the Farage interview is good.
They've pulled back some respectability from this in my eyes.
If he won't interview, then the BBC and ITV should use those 1/2 hour slots to analyse his past honesty and trustworthiness by other means.
Dear Mr Blowhard Johnson, if you don't want to answer questions about your integrity, then we will ask those who have worked with you in the past 20 years their views on your honesty and integrity.
Even Tha****r left the BBC alone.
Her spiritual successors have no such fears - they have emasculated it already and will destroy it completely within the next couple of years.
Even Prince Andrew agreed to an interview and he was shagging kids.
(not my words)
As above, the BBC or any other entity can't force him, any more than I can force some other random person to do an interview.
Even though it is convention and all previous potential leaders have honored that.
This is a damage limitation exercise for for the fat sack of entitled meat.
Notice also Rees Mogg has disappeared from the public recently? All in the game.
I don’t pretend to fully understand this stuff, but isn’t the BBC in breach of, uh, something if BJ doesn’t agree to an interview?
Good sense maybe. Unbiased behaviour, possibly.
The less openly dismissive of partisan concerns at the Beeb have admitted it was a huge mistake to broadcast one leader's interview without having all of them in the can.
Neil has a challenge here https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2019/dec/05/it-is-not-too-late-andrew-neil-challenges-johnson-to-commit-to-interview-video
Re quadratic equations and Johnson thought trinomyals would be more his style.
harcelées ou pris ou tyranisee as opposed to agression, n'est ce pas?
thought trinomyals would be more his style.
Cos no matter how many times he'd try them, they still wouldn't add up? Sounds like him
The chap barely scraped out a 2nd at Oxford for goodness sake.
As above, the BBC or any other entity can’t force him, any more than I can force some other random person to do an interview.
As I said, I don't really know anything about it. But I caught a paragraph as I was running out the door the other day, something like they'd told Corbyn that Johnson had agreed to an interview, so he agreed to do one also, then they said "well, we've asked him but he's not actually said yes yet." Something about Prada or Purdey or some such, some kinda of impartiality clause?
Is the class size thing a bit like finding you have a petrol leak on your car so you up the petrol budget for the month?
Plenty of ways to encourage people to become teachers like free bursaries for them to teaching qualifications.
You can get bursaries for shortage subjects in fact you can get paid more to train to be a science teacher than you get paid for the first few years being a teacher. Doesnt stop my school being unable to recruit sciencevteachers though, we lost 4 last year and replaced them with 1, 3 thevyear before, replaced with one. 10 years ago we had 18 science teachers, full time equivalents, now we have 12 whilst the pupil numbers are growing.
The issue with teaching is not getting them in to the profession, it's getting them to stay once they are in.
Like every public sector they are trying to do more for far less. Workloads are a huge issue, dealing with many of societies problems and now being teachers and social workers. Unless you work on the underlying issues of why teachers leave, then you'll just be throwing money at teachers to train for a few years until they leave the profession.
Tories not doing so bad in Scotland after all
Bxp ltd collapse saving them
Which sucks for rest of UK
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1202852389046423552?s=19
Tories not doing so bad in Scotland after all
We don't know how it all translates to seats. The Brexit factor makes this election the least predictable ever.
mrwhyte is right
But, of course, fewer teachers means teachers are more stretched, so part of any plan to retain staff is to train more staff (and make it enticing for staff to return to the profession, and to come from other countries). Even more true of nursing (both NHS and in care homes).
It’s a chicken/egg situation.
We don’t know how it all translates to seats. The Brexit factor makes this election the least predictable ever
I agree, but with bxp ltd not standing in Tory seats scot leavers have to go somewhere
SNP will do well either way, but if Johnson only loses 5 seats in Scotland, that won't be enough to offset his gain elsewhere
Tho the Tory candidate in Hastings is doing well ,🤪
https://twitter.com/SabinaArthur/status/1202883284004409344?s=19