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“ Some good stuff from Corbyn today about the nature of patriotism and the reasons terrorists attack the UK”
Not really because it misses the obvious point that it’s not just U.K. citizens being blown up and stabbed on their own streets - it’s a worldwide phenomenon that includes countries that have had no role in any military engagements in the Middle East.
What Corbyn doesn’t like to talk about is that the indiscriminate murder we have again seen is ideological - you simply cannot have safety when thousands of people living in this country and so radicalised that their only motivation is to seek out opportunities to maximise the suffering of others e.g. deliberately targeting a concert that was mostly attended by young girls and women.
These same attacks also take place across the Muslim world and almost always are perpetrated on minority populations - that’s when they aren’t being enslaved or forced to suffer forced rape or being burnt in cages.
Corbyn has no perspective on this other than to call the leaders of these groups his “friends.”
Rob Dixon - did you read or see the interview
thats just the " terrorist sympathiser" canard repeated from you. Utter nonsense.
What fuels terrorism? Bombing brown folk out of their homes to put int very simply.
The tories pals the saudis are the biggest funders of terrorism.
So actually tory wars and tory friends drive terrorism
Quoting you on page 96 of this thread to avoid any doubt.
Thick politicians, thick voters, it’s a destructive cycle.
Would you care to address why that is hypocritical of you given that you immediately jumped on any insinuation of stupidity on the part of Leave voters on the other thread?
Oddly enough Rob Dixon
many people seem to agree with Corbyn on this one
https://twitter.com/Survation/status/1201138090720530432?s=19
Perhaps if you dropped your blinkers you'd cencede that he has a point
On the other hand, had IS been allowed to flourish we’d actually be less safe. Let alone the fact that it would have resulted in genocides against minority Muslim populations. Destroying AQ ruined their ability and leadership to inspire further attacks as well.
Although the general rule that creating chaos and instability (the Iraq war) increases terrorism does seem to be true.
Baby steps Rayban
Where did isis come from? Which countries? what had happened in those countries before the rise of isis
"Do the public agree with Jeremy Corbyn who will say today that "the actions of successive governments have fueled, not reduced the threat of terrorism" ?"
The US State Department and MI5 both agree with him too, those dirty terrorist sympathisers.
Baby steps Rayban
Where did isis come from? Which countries? what had happened in those countries before the rise of isis
Did you notice I mentioned the Iraq war?
It was our responsibility to clean up our mess, stating that we shouldn’t have got involved because it would increase the risk to us is racist - yazidi and Kurd lives are apparently worth less than British lives.
Nice. ISIS that arose out of the ruins of Iraq and Libya - two countries we helped destroy - have caused huge suffering worldwide.
Now try this one - is the average inhabitant of Iraq and libya better off now than before we smashed their countries? Was the number of brown folk we killed worth it?
Nice. ISIS that arose out of the ruins of Iraq and Libya – two countries we helped destroy – have caused huge suffering worldwide.
Now try this one – is the average inhabitant of Iraq and libya better off now than before we smashed their countries? Was the number of brown folk we killed worth it?
Again jumping the gun here TJ - I’ve not made any claims supporting the Iraq war, only that it was our responsibility to make sure that ISIS did not gain a permanent foothold in the region.
Still refusing to answer Rayban?
What created the conditions for the rise of Isis? Who armed them at the beginning?
Still refusing to answer Rayban?
What created the conditions for the rise of Isis? Who armed them at the beginning?
I’ve said the Iraq war created chaos and instability.
Who funds Isis?
10er on you thinking it’s Israel.
Right - so now you accept that the first gulf war created the conditions for the rise of Isis. another baby step from you. don't worry. I'll nurse you thru this
who armed them at the beginning?
Now try this one – is the average inhabitant of Iraq and libya better off now than before we smashed their countries?
Some sweeping assumptions contained in that! But we're off topic again.
OK
I got told off by frank for engaging with Rayban and taking the thread off track so won't do it again
Iraq and libya where stable and wealthy countries pre 1990. Our bombing of them killed many millions of people and created the conditions for the rise of Isis
During the first gulf "war" we armed insurgents and encouraged them to take arms from the Iraqi army dumps. these insurgents became Isis. so Isis were created by us and the Americans
Isis thrives on grievance - it requires that to recruit. Its much easier to recruit from a population who has seen their country " bombed into the stone age"
Saudi Arabia funds Isis. the same Saudi arabia that our goverments fawn over.
Everytime we go bombing brown folk we create more recruits for Isis
Fighting for peace is a nonsense. Its like bonking for virginity
Every intervention we make in the middle east / North africa simply fuels the rise of terrorism
So the answer to who created Isis is us, the Americans and the Saudis
Oh dear
I thought you were gaining some glimmers of understanding.
Never mind
You can’t compare an intervention on behalf of a state based actor, with multiple regional state based actors also playing a role with an occupation and getting involved in what was essentially a tribal conflict.
Another thread ruined.
Boris got some nerve blaming Labour for the attack! Shameful frankly. Corbyn gets difficult questions on AS every interview. Bojo has got half a dozen or more subjects he needs to answer difficult questions on!
Hope he does the A. Neil interview. I'm thinking no chance
Hope Corbyn demands an apology for blaming Labour in the head to head.
Actually I've had enough of demanding apologies its ****ing stupid.
There’s no way he’s doing the Andrew Neil interview. Not a chance
We’ve had mates up from that there London this weekend. They were talking about a conversation they were having with a mate of there’s who works in the print meedya in London.
They were saying how the main concerns of Johnson’s minders at Tory Central office is trying to keep him relatively sober during the rest of the election campaign.
Apparently it’s common knowledge In Westminster circles that he’s a raging vodka-on-your-cornflakes level alcoholic. Having a read of some of the papers, with that in mind, there seems to be quite a few insinuations to that effect
Had to switch channels away from Swinson this morning. About five 'you knows' per sentence. Nearly as bad as Johnson umming.
Got to say (even though no love for her) - Jo Swinson much better since she dropped the massive ego - in debate.
Binners - I've also heard that rumoured but we need conclusive proof and in the media.
Lives in hope......
Binners – I’ve also heard that rumoured but we need conclusive proof and in the media.
Lives in hope……
Nah This is what he has for breakfast.
[url= https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49154007021_540d2851a2.jp g" target="_blank">https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49154007021_540d2851a2.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/2hTz8MF ]EJw-tMHXkAESE3j[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/140397021@N03/ ]michaelwex10[/url], on Flickr
Gove special.
Apparently, from the same source, Gove is even worse. Pretty much permanently pissed
A colleagues school friend works for Dept for international trade
She said that Fox was kind but dumb as a post , she said Truss is incredibly rude & all the staff hate her.
I can see both Gove & Johnson being haunted by their demons & past mistakes that they hit the bottle hard.
Fact is, Johnson could be found unconscious in a crack den in just his underpants , have it splashed over the papers and people would still vote for him because he's 'gonna get Brexit done'
I say again, shit floats right now. The very worst politicians seem to attract funding and media attention.
Liz Truss is as thick as mince. When she’s being interviewed you can literally see the cogs clunking away as she tries to work out which way is up. A vile human being
She’s lauded by the same people who accuse Dianne Abbot of being thick.
I know who Id rather have in charge of a govt dept and it ain’t Truss.
U.K. PRIME MINISTER BORIS JOHNSON ACCUSED OF PLAGIARIZING PROMINENT LEGAL BLOG IN TWEETS ABOUT LONDON BRIDGE ATTACKER
Drac
Subscriber
Another thread ruined.
Have you tried turning your iPad off aaand on again?
Pretty much permanently pissed
So was Charles Kennedy, but he was pretty much universally loved.
She’s lauded by the same people who accuse Dianne Abbot of being thick.
I think Abbot is incredibly dumb, and Truss is a moron. Does that prove or disprove the point?
Being pissed all the time does explain how they manage to come out with so much shit and not care about it.
Iraq and libya where stable and wealthy countries pre 1990.
They were also dictatorships with dubious human rights records, but that doesn't play into your narrative. It's no wonder you cherry picked the defining characteristics.
But sometimes leaving a dictator with a terrible record on human rights in charge is the least worst option. Saudi Arabia being a prime example of this.
Anyhoo, back on topic, who in the hell do I vote for? It's between labour and ex-labour (now tigfc) in my ward, and their pamphlets are more or less identical.
It's got split vote letting the Tories in written all over it:-/
They were also dictatorships with dubious human rights records
They certainly were. The question is did the interventions make it any better and have they ever made it any better. A dictatorship may not sound great but sometimes things are better left alone rather than killing a whole load of people and ending up with something no better.
Still, may have got some oil out of it and upped the sales of weapons...
A dictatorship may not sound great but sometimes things are better left alone
Agreed.
But making it sound like a dusty paradise before there were boots on the ground is a little lopsided.
Still, Boris drunk? George Michael will be gay next.
If anyone wants to understand the history of our relationship with the middle east specifically Saudi, Iraq and Libya then watch Bitter Lake by Adam Curtis: https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02gyz6b/adam-curtis-bitter-lake
Agreed, brilliant documentary
Adam Curtis been quiet for a while
I do wonder if he's making a new doc about Brexit/Russia/Trump
Only a week and a half to go
Locally labour activists everywhere door knocking, handing out flyers
Tory MP has pulled exact same vanishing act he did last time round, no hustings, no real campiging, that saw his majority fall from 10,000 to 1800
I think this time he's safe, there's no longer a bxp/ukip candidate and we have an ageing population , he did get busted posting a staged litter picking pic tho
Interesting to see that Dominic Raab could be providing this elections 'Portillo Moment' despite presently havig a 23,000 majority. Couldn't happen to a nicer bloke
A dictatorship may not sound great but sometimes things are better left alone rather than killing a whole load of people and ending up with something no better.
Hindsight is often 20/20.......
Couldn’t happen to a nicer bloke
Fingers crossed - despicable fkr!
Bloke on twitter from Chingford this morning with pictures of Iain Duncan Smith at his door. Apparently if Labour win then "they will take your house away".
IDS has to lose his seat for his constant, incessant lying and his ghoulish tendencies towards making poor people even poorer.
Hindsight lol! Are you serious?
So we know better after Libya right? If only there had been some examples of rgime change going wrong in recent history then maybe we would have known not to go into Libya. Ffs
Hindsight is often 20/20…….
yeah cos no one said invading iraqi without a "what happens next plan" was a bad idea at the time.
As usual the point is missed....
The point is did anyone know it was going to end so badly?
Did you know beforehand there wasn’t a plan?
Were you present at the strategic planning meetings prior to any of those events?
No.
I certainly didn’t know the planners didn’t have a scoobies. Mind you after a decade in the Army there’s an argument I should have! 🤣
I agree, in hindsight, these operations have proved to be clusterFs....& we should certainly reconsider how we intervene in the future.
So, yeah....hindsight.
Tory party really are doing trump type campaigning. Getting pulled up for dodgy editing of BBC broadcasts now. But apparently according to their campaign staff it's ok as people can see from themselves that it's ok, of course true as long as you have the time and skills to find what program all of the clips are from and watch each one to find the context of the comment. Shameful gutter campaigning.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_protests
The point is did anyone know it was going to end so badly?
YES! It was obvious!
certainly didn’t know the planners didn’t have a scoobies. Mind you after a decade in the Army there’s an argument I should have!
You should have, because it was effing obvious to millions of us.
Protests in 600 cities globally ‘should’ have given pause for thought. MILLIONS of people worldwide who were horrified at enough at direction that events were taking that they joined some of the biggest mass protests the world had seen. But no, no one had any idea.
a short snippet from John Brady Kiesling resignation letter dated march 4th which was printed in the New York Times
Have we indeed become blind, as Russia
is blind in Chechnya, as Israel is blind in the Occupied
Territories, to our own advice, that overwhelming military
power is not the answer to terrorism? After the shambles of
post-war Iraq joins the shambles in Grozny and Ramallah, it
will be a brave foreigner who forms ranks with Micronesia to
follow where we lead.
Tory party really are doing trump type campaigning.
Everyone should have known exactly what to expect as soon as Johnson got Cummings on board. He's employing all the same dodgy tactics he did with the leave campaign and then some. And all those tactics were brought to them by Steve Bannon fresh from getting Trump elected. Pushing the boundaries of legality to the very limit, then pushing a little bit more
I take it you don't believe Cummings resigned 3 weeks ago then.
Really ? I thought the Brexit vote happened before Trump got elected ?
I know Cummings is good at his evil work, but has he really managed time travel ?
(makes you think doesn't it, etc etc)
The point is did anyone know it was going to end so badly?
Did you know beforehand there wasn’t a plan?
It was widely discussed at the time, a lot of knowledgeable people voiced their concerns about the lack of planning, they were on telly and everything.
Kerley - he didn't; go back through the thread to see why.
In summary, all SPADs are required to stand down in GE run-up so he did; his role & responsibilities are unchanged - as per cabinet office.
Hels
Bannon has been doing the rounds in Europe for a while now. Connecting with like-minded people like Cummings and the far right networks across the EU. A lot of the tactics of misinformation and the abuse of data that the trump campaign an the leave campaign used are those pioneered by Putin
I take it you don’t believe Cummings resigned 3 weeks ago then.
All the dodgy shenanigans going on at the moment have his grubby fingerprints all over them
@hels he ran Breitbart which supported both campaigns
He is also on the board of Cambridge Analytics that also supported both campaigns
Poll tracker: changes last Monday.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1201490383810768896?s=20
Labour were 7pts away from Tories at this point in 2017
Labour were 7pts away from Tories at this point in 2017
In the aggregate poll?
Present bookies odds:
Tory Majority 1.5/1
No overall majority 2.75/1
Labour Majority 21/1
So both party leaders already attempting to oversimplify and blame Friday’s killings on the actions of the last Labour government. Not good enough from either of them. They might both be making valid points… but the timing stinks. Our politics stinks.
The coalescing around the two main parties just shows how broken our system is. People are not voting for representation but against other parties.
People are not voting for representation but against other parties.
We have to.
Depressing but true. Especially depressing if you watched the C4 climate debate.
Kelvin, I agree - unacceptable from both Johnson & Corbyn.
The fact that the father of one of the murdered makes a public request that this not be politicised should not have been necessary but, regrettably, he was right.
Johnson's interview with Marr, when discussing this, has been described by Norman Smith of BBC as 'abrasive'.
If Corbyn had said nothing for a few days, certainly until after today's memorial service, he would done himself a favour.
As it is, neither have shown much compassion or common decency; not a good look.
The coalescing around the two main parties just shows how broken our system is. People are not voting for representation but against other parties.
I take your point, but I'm not. I'm voting Libdem this time and not to stop another party:
1p on tax.
Revoke.
A sane(ish) policy on Zero hour contracts.
(Comparitive) Fiscal Rectitude.
I take it you don’t believe Cummings resigned 3 weeks ago then.
Only as a Special Advisor. Which I understand he had to do under purdah rules.
The coalescing around the two main parties just shows how broken our system is
And the option is?
Its looking increasingly like the last election in people returning to the two main parties not for any particular confidence in them or desire to vote for them but from fear and distrust of the other lot. Of course, both Labour and the Tory's will then take this as a vote of confidence and a positive endorsement of their policies. Same as they did last time.
Our entire political system is ****ed!
I'm getting my head around the appalling choices on offer by just thinking on a local level towards my rather good (non-Corbynite) labour MP who thoroughly deserves to continue in the job for what he does for the constituency. I'm just trying to ignore the absolute horror show at the top of both parties
Mostly "P" members posting on this page so may not have noticed, but today every single advert for me on this thread is a Tory sponsored "cost of Corbyn: £2400 more tax every year" claim and himself looking as comrade as possible.
A quick search confirms that this is bollocks (but also that labour are unlikely to raise enough through the means they claim)
https://fullfact.org/electionlive/2019/nov/25/conservatives-repeat-misleading-labour-cost-figure/
Take out a subscription; it won't stop the bollocks but will be invisible to you.
but today every single advert for me on this thread is a Tory sponsored “cost of Corbyn: £2400 more tax every year” claim and himself looking as comrade as possible.
Or click on it, get the details and research into them to make sure they are lies. That way at least it's costing them as much as possible to spout out the rubbish.
Definitely narrowing
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1201522504428380161?s=19
But can't see it being enough because of the 'red wall' marginals
Can someone please explain to me while people are still voting tory?
I don't see what they offer working class families, surely Labour are offering more?
I've never been able to get my head around anyone who's not in the top 1% of earners voting for the Tories
Working class Tories are a very odd breed indeed
Unfortunately the lies work. Lots of people really, genuinely believe that Corbyn is a communist who is going to take away all their stuff, that the EU is just France and Germany trying to take our money etc etc. So they will vote Tory.
Working class Tories are a very odd breed indeed
The argument I’ve heard is that they’ve worked hard to get what they have so why should they support a party who will give to others who haven’t worked as hard.
Not saying I agree but it’s an argument.
I’m voting Libdem this time and not to stop another party:
1p on tax.
Revoke.
A sane(ish) policy on Zero hour contracts.
(Comparitive) Fiscal Rectitude.
Prudent. Sensible.
Expect some abuse because voting labour is the only solution on here.
If it is, the problem can't be solved.