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I’m confused about
It’s percentage/proportions, not absolute values. The three columns for each religion add up to 100%, they do not represent the size of the total vote share that religion has in any way.
So the long term political future of a country affecting the entire population..
possibly for decades to come..
can be swayed by the hate of a relatively small minority of religious zealots..
their anger directed at a particular figure to satisfy their spite..
facilitating the empowerment of a basically far right extremist party..
with seemingly no social conscience..
..the phrase cutting off your nose to spite your face pops up.
to vote in this election based on anything other than the long term effects
of the changes proposed is nothing short of idiocy or gullability of a high order
That the Israeli Govt are arseholes about Palestine, is NOT the fault of British citizens who happen to be Jewish, OK TJ? Have you got that message now?
Your post was reasonable and considered up until this point. I don’t make a habit of it, but I’m going to defend TJ here. NOTHING he has posted has suggested that he thinks that Israeli actions are U.K. Jews fault. To do so would be clearly antisemitic and TJ is many things but he’s not that.
I see it’s anti-semitism day. Think I’m about where this guy is.
https://twitter.com/how_upsetting/status/1199095858781999104?s=21
To do so would be clearly antisemitic and TJ is many things but he’s not that.
I don’t think the original post about conflating British Jews with Isreal was meant to be read as if TJ is antisemitic, no one has claimed, or even suggested that.
Think I’m about where this guy is.
Wow Dazh. Is that they very definition of a straw man?!? You’re better than that, I’d like to think.
A Labour govt would not usher in a new holocaust. The Labour Party are not taking antisemitism seriously enough.
TJ is antisemitic, no one has claimed, or even suggested that.
This clearly implies it, IMO;
is NOT the fault of British citizens who happen to be Jewish, OK TJ? Have you got that message now?
If he didn’t MEAN to imply it, he owes TJ an apology. If he DID mean to imply it, then he owes more than an apology.
A Labour govt would not usher in a new holocaust. The Labour Party are not taking antisemitism seriously enough.
Agree, but I do think people making statements such as "I wouldn't feel safe in this country under a Corbyn government and would have to leave the country" are a touch dramatic.
Yeah all my Jewish friends are really "anxious" living about living in a Labour run UK
In fact they are really looking forward to The Great Utopian Brexit Liberation and Tolerance of Minority Religions that is to come once we have taken back control.
Thank you V8
are a touch dramatic
A touch? They're nothing short of hysteria whipped up by the right wing with clear political aims. It's like McCarthyism never happened.
Look, this is all fairly simple. We live in a country which despite surface appearances, is still deeply racist at pretty much every level and grouping in society. Focusing on one tiny element of it in one group of society is plainly ridiculous. Anyone who can't see that the cause of anti-racism is being blatantly politicised for the advantage of one party needs to open their eyes. By all means lets root out racism wherever it exists, but lets do it universally, consistently and impartially. There is no area of our society where racism doesn't exist in some form.
And really if anyone thinks TJ is in any way shape or form anti-semitic then I despair. Can we get back to real issues now? Every word spent on this issue just feeds the hysteria. We need to stop, this sort of thing doesn't lead anywhere good.
Can we get back to real issues now?
I’m sure all us gentiles can get behind the idea of concentrating on other things but, for others, referring to antisemitism as something other than a “real issue” is pretty cold and hard.
Antisemitismis real accross all sections of society
Critism of Isreal is not of its self anti semitic but any critisim is often called anti semetic
Corbyn is willing to critise Isreal. That gets him called anti semetic
No one has yet been able to point to a single anti semetic thing Corbyn has ever done
Well, that is probably best taken back to the Corbyn thread.
I’m sure all us gentiles can get behind the idea of concentrating on other things but, for others, referring to antisemitism as something other than a “real issue” is pretty cold and hard.
He's not referring to antisemitism as the non-real issue he's saying the subterfuge for politicising should be treated with scepticism.
The chief Rabbi does not speak for all UK jews. he speaks for a part of them. You don't get to hear the other side do you?
here are some examples:
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/
> sigh <
Vote Labour. Please don’t let the most blinkered supporters put you off. You can see that Labour have problems amongst their ranks that are yet to be dealt with properly, and also that having another Labour MP is immeasurably better for everyone in the UK than another Conservative MP.
Vote Labour. Stop the Tories.
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1199279263440154626?s=20
Tipping point? One off Poll?
Need the positivity.
It’ll narrow still further in the next few weeks. I had hoped the launch of the Labour manifesto would have moved the dial further than it has though (it did in 2017); harder for Labour to surprise this time, I suppose.
Id like to think the momentum was with Labour & some labour leavers started to have doubts about a Johnson government rone, but too many people seem to buy the myth that Johnson well get brexit sorted in a few months
referring to antisemitism as something other than a “real issue” is pretty cold and hard.
For christ's sake leave it. Misrepresenting what people say about AS feeds the hysteria. That's how every witch-hunt in history happened, and there was always someone somewhere who benefitted from it. You can either take part in it and be part of the mob, or not.
Need the positivity.
We didn't do this one yesterday. Yes labour should always be ahead in Wales, and by more than this, but the significant bit is the change in sentiment. Things could be turning...
https://twitter.com/ITVWales/status/1199009679826964480?s=20
V8, TJ.
This is what I object to
Its as I siad. The isrealis and their apologists are aghast that there is a prospect of a government in the UK that will hold isreal to account for its vile actions
If you'd have said The Isreali Govt and left it there I'd have been totally fine. But you didn't say that you said the Isrealis (the entire country and people) and it's apologists...This is the divided loyalty trope.
The criticism today was from Ephraim Mirvis, a British citizen and Rabbi. and by this statement has ignored the obvious fact that the "Israelis" are not a homogenous group and indeed have sharply diverse political views. But, TJ is happy to lump Mirvis in as a mouth-peice of the "Israelis" and label him "An apologist"
I don't particularly feel the need to apologise, I think TJ probably needs to reflect on typing too fast. I don't think TJ is anti Semitic, but I'd be pleased if he reflected on this more Let's call it an example of Hanlon's Razor
t’ll narrow still further in the next few weeks. I had hoped the launch of the Labour manifesto would have moved the dial further than it has though (it did in 2017); harder for Labour to surprise this time, I suppose.
Inertia. Maybe it will ramp up.
That poll is one of the tricky ones that tends to reflect Tory goodness.
Interestingly here in Brexitlaw (Bassetlaw) we don't appear to have a campaigning Tory PPC. Now if you know anything about Bassetlaw (Lord John Mann of Brexitville previously) we are supposed to be heading towards Tory. But there is no one on the campaign trail.
(Actually Brendan Clark-Smith is listed but still haven't seen him campaigning.)
I for the life of me can't figure out what's gone on with the Tory PPC. I see Brendan Clarke-Smith listed but nothing from him.
I'm going to a mini question time debate soon with all the candidates apart from the Tory PPC listed!
Anyone hear Lord Justice Dyson on 5Live just now?
Formerly head of appeal court and member of supreme court.
Damning of Johnson regarding honesty and integrity.
Nicely skewered Sir.
Tipping point? One off Poll?
There was an ICM poll yesterday too...
Let’s call it an example of Hanlon’s Razor
On both of your parts, then; your sloppy inference of antisemitism was as bad if not worse than TJ’s lack of clarity between the terms of ‘Israel’ and ‘Government of Israel’. If he’d conflated ‘Israel’ with ‘Jewish’ you’d have had more of a point, but he didn’t.
Anyway, agreed, let’s move on.
There was an ICM poll yesterday too…
yeah saw that last night. Good.
https://www.thearticle.com/peter-kellner-some-of-the-most-startling-polling-numbers-i-have-ever-seen
Yuk.
Maybe flawed because it's all based on a yougov extraction. Dunno.
If Johnson can be denied his majority, it might be surprising just who is prepared to support Labour forming a government instead (with a different leader) and holding an EU referendum…
https://twitter.com/cornishskipper/status/1199314021649960961?s=21
We might end up with ALL the NI MPs, of all parties, doing what needs doing to kill Johnson’s Brexit approach.
Yuk.
Agreed. Something can be done about it though…
https://twitter.com/thatginamiller/status/1198969985508532225?s=21
Kelvin if you’re hoping labour will jettison Corbyn at the behest of the DUP then give up now. Labour members would rather be in opposition than kowtow to the racist fanatics in the DUP, and they’d be right in doing so.
> sigh <
Labour might be in a position to form a government, with a different leader. If they choose opposition instead… well… 🤷🏻♂️ If the votes of MPs from 7 different parties are required to move the UK away from Johnson’s Brexit, it will require a very different way of doing things in Westminster.
Ideological purity, comrade. It trumps everything. It certainly trumps being in power.
We might end up with ALL the NI MPs, of all parties, doing what needs doing to kill Johnson’s Brexit approach.
Have a think about what it is Johnson has achieved. He's united all the political parties in NI in opposition to something. His crappy 'deal'. Really you have to take your hat off to him. That truly unprecedented
Labour might be in a position to form a government, with a different leader. If they choose opposition instead… well…
The DUP will give over if it comes to that I'm sure, without Corbyn having to step down.
He’s united all the political parties in NI in opposition to something. His crappy ‘deal’.
And still we have England jogging along… tally ho… ignoring that we are forcing a deeply unpopular risky massive change on both NI and Scotland…
If Johnson gets his majority, I dread to think how much he can turn people outside England against “Westminster” over a five year term.
Ideological purity, comrade. It trumps everything. It certainly trumps being in power.
FFS binners and kelvin, are you really suggesting that the labour party should sell out their principles to people who are essentially hard right, religious fundamentalist racist fanatics, just for a taste of power? On the one hand you criticise them for supposedly being anti-semitic, now you want them to cosy up to the most fanatically bigoted people in parliament just to get in power? Get a grip on yourselves.
And if they did, I can guarantee that they'd lose tens, if not hundreds of thousands of members, not to mention the votes of people like myself. If the DUP want to support a labour govt then that's up to them, but labour should not under any circumstance change their policies or their leadership in order to ensure it.
Daz - I believe the word you're looking for is 'compromise'. Or horse trading. Call it what you like. Its the reality of our political system now majorities look like (thankfully) being a thing of the past.
Grandads track record suggests he won't even compromise with those in his own party, but outside the bunker, so its a non-starter
If Johnson gets his majority, I dread to think how much he can turn people outside England against “Westminster” over a five year term
The union won't survive a 5 year Tory term of them pursuing their hard Brexit.
The problem is how that manifests it self. In Northern Ireland this type of thing has had a tendency to get a bit shooty
now you want them to cosy up to the most fanatically bigoted people in parliament just to get in power?
Cosy up? No. Ask them to support a closer relationship with Europe to reduce border issues… and then put that to the people in a referendum? Yes.
Labour don’t want Scottish Independence. And shouldn’t have to in order to work with the SNP to stop Johnson’s Brexit.
Labour don’t want the backwards social policies of DUP. And shouldn’t have to in order to work with the DUP to stop Johnson’s Brexit.
Labour don’t want the LibDems particular balance of state and private provision of services. And shouldn’t have to in order to work with the LibDems to stop Johnson’s Brexit.
I believe the word you’re looking for is ‘compromise’.
You can't compromise with the devil. There are lines you can't cross, and this is one of them. It would be selling out, plain and simple, and any claims labour had to holding the higher moral ground and being guided by fundamental principles of fairness and equality would go with it.
Labour members would rather be in opposition than kowtow to the racist fanatics in the DUP, and they’d be right in doing so.
They might not call a leadership election but Corbyn himself might resign. It would be hard for him to stay leader if it led to a Johnson government, knowing how bad that would be for almost everyone.
NO SURRENDER!!!... erm... comrade?
🙂
but Corbyn himself might resign
And what then? Do the DUP get to vet the new candidate list? If the DUP want Corbyn to resign if he can't form a government, the best thing they can do is keep their mouths shut. In any case, the May govt is a case study in why you wouldn't want to be a govt propped up by the DUP. Strategically it's way more trouble than it's worth. Far better to let Boris get on with his impossible brexit and suffer another few years of defeat and deflation in advance of a new election, which wouldn't be far away.
FFS binners and kelvin, are you really suggesting that the labour party should sell out their principles to people who are essentially hard right, religious fundamentalist racist fanatics, just for a taste of power?
Well you have changed you tune now, you have absolutely no qualms with them selling out their principles to get behind brexit (which is the biggest far right driven political moment we have ever had in the UK). But on far more minor points you preach no compromise even in crushing defeat. It is about time you took a look at yourself, and the contradictory nonsense you have been posting for the past few years.
Yeah, Daz! You bloody anarcho-communist!
😛
you have absolutely no qualms with them selling out their principles to get behind brexit
Rubbish, the fact there was a democratic vote and labour are a primarily a democratic party says all you need to know. Different thread though so take it there.
and the contradictory nonsense
Only if you only see the world through the lens of brexit. Problem is brexit is not the overriding driver of everything going on today, it's a sympton of other things. Again, for the other thread.
Problem is brexit is not the overriding driver of everything going on today
its the reason we are having an election
its the reason that traditional party loyalty has been thrown in the air
its also a financial & political black hole, that ensures whoever wins the GE will have no domestic policy for the next 5-10 years while we wrestle with its complexities
I am amazed at the number of people who believe that Brexit will be "done" by the 31st January under the Nazis - sorry, I mean Tories.
I'm also very confused as to why people will happily vote for a party that's done nothing but tell weapons grade lies since BJ was elected to lead it.
yep Ivan Rogers/ Peter Foster break down of where Johnson's deal takes us after he wins
https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1199250350089351168
Predictable phase 2 of the Tory campaign kicking off…
1) Get Brexit Done
2) Cost of Corbyn
3) Dunno, something about coalitions, or something nakedly anti-Scottish… we’ll see…
Remember that the ERG degenerates would be happy to share a land border with an EU member state...
...think of all of the substandard tat that can be flogged via a leaky border.
4) Release Election Manifesto with no actual policies in it
The Get Brexit Done thing is because Take Back Control worked so well. They've sussed out that a big chunk of the population have the attention span of a goldfish and are so distracted by social media and bullshit that they can only 'think' in three word slogans on a Facebook meme
Who needs policies when you've got a snappy catchphrase?
The Brexit Party bunch are not known for their integrity, suitability for office or collective intellect.
its the reason we are having an election
Can't completely disagree but it's also about something so much bigger. Swathes of people unhappy about something they think is the fault of immigrants - but have been sold a pup about the way the society works.
They've been offered easy answers to complex problems, that handily came with a convenient group to scapegoat
I do wonder that the recent labour surge (OK, 2 polls showing a small narrowing of tory lead) has much to do with new voters, im assuming they are less likely to be captured by pollsters anyway
but
There have been 3,191,193 applications to register to vote in those 28 days, an average of 114,000 per day
That figure is 38% higher than the 2,315,893 applications to register in a similar period in the 2017 election, which equated to an average of 68,000 registrations per day
Of the applications made since the election was called in 2019, 2,125,064 applications (67% of the total) have been made by people aged 34 or under
and as younger voters are much more likely to vote labour/libdem/remain that may hurt the tories on polling day (or conceivably split remain vote further!)
Tories won popular vote last election by just 750,000 votes
so potentially giving labour a net boost of 1.5million votes
*of course FPTP & BXP/Tory pact very much skews all this & and is set against 2:1 swing of leavers to tory vs remainers to labour
Ultimately big surge in younger voters is hopefully giving Tories some squeaky bum time
I’m also very confused as to why people will happily vote for a party that’s done nothing but tell weapons grade lies since BJ was elected to lead it.
Just listen to the people who get interviewed in the street. A good example from an item on yesterdays news "I don't trust Boris at all but I like him so will vote for him anyway"
As Churchill said "The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter"
and as younger voters are much more likely to vote labour/libdem/remain that may hurt the tories on polling day (or conceivably split remain vote further!)
Still amazed that 25% of 18-24 vote Tory. What sort of messed up childhood have they had to be so uncaring at that age.
has anyone ever on here actually taken part on one of these polls?
They’ve been offered easy answers to complex problems, that handily came with a convenient group to scapegoat
...and won't they be pissed off if we leave and it doesn't solve all their problems?
jam bo
Subscriber
has anyone ever on here actually taken part on one of these polls?
Im a member of survation & yougov! I was also phone polled by one of them last GE
was reading somewhere that polling organisations are usually skewed to the right tho as older people simply more politically engaged
all that said about Labour hoovering up the youth vote.....
the Tories have stepped up
…and won’t they be pissed off if we leave and it doesn’t solve all their problems?
Yes... with Europe, or with remoaners, or anyone but themselves. 🙄
all that said about Labour hoovering up the youth vote…..
the Tories have stepped up
What the actual **** did I just read?
That Michael Gove tweet can't be real...?
was reading somewhere that polling organisations are usually skewed to the right tho as older people simply more politically engaged
More likely to answer the phone...
What sort of messed up childhood have they had to be so uncaring at that age.
It takes a while to come out from the shadow of your parents sometimes.
I gather Saint Jeremy smashed it out of the park with his interview with Andrew Neil earlier. A masterclass, by all accounts.
Anyone watch it?
The “Sturgeon wants to be deputy prime minister” line got used by Johnson today, so that’s phase 3 in the Tory campaign getting kicked off early (it’s also yet another lie).
Anyone watch it?
He got roasted. As did the other leaders in the other interviews. Neil won’t hold back with Johnson either.
Good job Boris is good under pressure...
I hope Johnson gets as much of a kicking, he's on shakier ground.
Neil has a strong right wing bias in his day to day political commentary, but when it comes to these set piece interviews he sets out to skewer all the leaders. The question is, even he succeeds with Johnson… will it make any difference?
I hope Johnson gets as much of a kicking, he’s on shakier ground.
Corbyn should of just played the ball as it was given to him. He surely knew that the questions were going to be brutal, so just accept the mistakes and don't try and weasel out.
Neil has been fantastic with everyone he's had on his Wednesday program. Really wish there were more people like him in journalism.
I see no reason why Johnson won't get taken to pieces in the most spectacular fashion.
So when do you think the msm and guardian will play the 'reds under the bed' about Labour card?
I suspect it will be a weekend Sunday papers lead and they only have two weekends to go.
They cant really go the whole secret Kremlin funded plot as Johnson has already bagged that so what do you think the attack line will be?
Neil won’t hold back with Johnson either.
Bollox. From previous he is much much softer on tories
The question is, even he succeeds with Johnson… will it make any difference?
Johnson could probably take a shit on the floor and walk out and people would still vote for him.
Bollox.
Dear oh dear. Past campaign period interviews suggest otherwise. Let’s watch Johnson’s, and see if he gets a soft ride.
Don’t know about ‘reds under the bed’ in the Sunday papers, but getting the whole ‘criticism of Israel and/or Zionism is anti Semitic’ trope out there a few months ago looks like a shrewd play. Almost as though they were desperate for Labour to have an ‘ism’ that could be trotted out to neutralise accusations of racism/xenophobia on the part of Brexiteers.
And yes, I do know that criticism of Israel and Zionism (the latter to a lesser extent) were defined as not being Anti-Semitism, but the notion got out there.
When people can barely be arsed to get past a three word slogan it plays to the narrative of ‘they are all as bad as each uvver, but Boris will deliver Brexit and take back sovrunty’.
Clever stuff.
The interviews do matter
Yougov have Don't Knows at 23% !
Both Cornyn & Johnson poll very badly on trust
They have to come across well
& For all his pro brexit/Tory bias on Twitter Neil does give Tory MPs a tough time, whether he will do the same to his old chum from the Spectator? I suppose we'll know soon.
A bad day for corbyn , will Labour keep squeezing Tories in the polls? If they are panic will be setting in at Tory HQ, May was polling better than Johnson is now (15 vs 12pt lead)
But unless Johnson is a disaster & has some major fk ups between now and 12th he'll get his majority.
It has to be said, Andrew Neil is an utter cretin though, fully expect the same obnoxious nonsense against swinson and johnson.