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There are an awful lot of people that believe the fantasy that the Tories are pushing about sorting Brexit in a few months.
It's exactly what people want to hear, and amazingly it seems to be working
https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1198562499844595712?s=19
All the experts say there’s not a cat in hells chance of getting a trade deal done on that timetable
But then the country showed three years ago that Gove was right... we’ve apparently had enough of ‘experts’.
Once negotiations start Johnson will still be a hostage to the ERG ultras who are demanding the hardest of Brexits, for the UK to become a completely deregulated Singapore off the coast of Europe.
And there’s no way on earth the EU are going to wear that
Ultimately we’re heading for a no deal crash out under a Tory government. The only question is when
So many people having a meltdown that they might have to pay £8.33 more a month tax if they are lucky enough to earn £82k.
The reaction when it dawns on people the sacrifices that will have to be made to avert climate disaster gives me such little hope for the planet.
Depressing.
Just reading in today’s Observer that the Tory’s poll lead has now increased to 19 points.
Which will translate to a whopping majority for Johnson and the most hardline far right government this country has ever seen, intent on doing god only knows what
We really are royally ****ed!
Just reading in today’s Observer that the Tory’s poll lead has now increased to 19 points.
There has been a good spike of 1.5m young people Registering to vote.
If they are remainers mostly and in the right areas then it could make a big difference.
Keep going, it's not over until the 12th.
So let me get this straight, brexit aside, the tory manifesto is basically filling in potholes and curing dementia?
So let me get this straight, brexit aside, the tory manifesto is basically filling in potholes and curing dementia?
Not surprising, nothing to upset the boat like Mays dementia tax. Play it super safe and cure it!
basically filling in potholes and curing dementia?
And no extra tax! Don’t forget that! Bribery. And free parking for patients and staff at hospitals. 🤬 mainly things that are Tory issues in the first place.
To be fair Dazh, I was expecting the solution to poor road surfaces to be “we can’t get on with sorting your street unless we get… Brexit… done”.
Anyway… state fund for potholes - ‘Communism’?
No that's "Nationalise Everything"
That's page 1 of the Communist Instruction manual; seize the means of production.
So… if the state resurfaces your road that isn’t communism, but if it lays fibre under it, that is communism? Or is it that all political parties are proposing infrastructure spending? We have a mixed economy. The state spends money on, and controls, infrastructure roll out and maintenance, whoever is in government.
I would love to know where those 50 000 extra nurses are going to come from. There is a demographic bombshell coming in nursing with a lot of them being close to retirement
Applications from EU nurses has plummeted to 10% of the norm. No new non EU nurses can work here under tory laws.
There are not enough nurses being trained to fill natural wastage and churn let alone replace those retiring and that 50 000 is around the number of vacancies in England IIRC
another demonstration of the patsy questions Johnson gets asked. No one challenged him on this
We'll make our own nurses. The best nurses. Like we had in the good old days. Let's make nursing great again.
They’ll come from the same place as the thousands of GPs the Tories promised before (and never delivered).
for the UK to become a completely deregulated Singapore off the coast of Europe.
Do you ever even bother to look up stuff before you post your hysterical nonsense?
Singapore
Retirement at 62 - UK 67 but increasing to 68
Average annual salary 38k -UK 28k
6th best place to be born in the world - UK 28th
4 years longer life expectancy than UK
Infant mortality rate almost half that of the UK
Regularly features as the best in the world for education
Singaporean passport top in the world for visa free access to other countries
Higher than the UK in the UN development index
Home ownership 90%
AAA credit rating higher than the UK's AA
Pretty decent healthcare
Lots of immigrants
Lots of rules/laws
etc etc etc
Mind you it's political system is based on the UK model so not all perfect 😉
I'm still astonished the Johnson was allowed to dismiss the recent poor NHS performance against it's targets as unprecedented - you bastards have been in power 9 years, these issue are "precedented" as they've been building up year on year as performance struggles, your policies have helped create a lot of these pressures, your policies will actively work against the steps necessary to resolve them and not one bloody interviewer went after him over it!
nick - do those numbers include immigrants / migrant workers? By my understanding they are second class citizens unable to reap those benefits.
so how is Johnson going to do this without tax rises?
On the nurses:
Of the 50,000, 12,000 would come from abroad, 14,000 would be new undergrad students, 5,000 would do degree apprenticeships and 19,000 are nurses who would otherwise have left the profession, but who the Conservatives hope to “retain”.
gonna give us a big pay rise to reatian us? Or simply make it impossible to retire?
so how is Johnson going to do this without tax rises?
Because they're lying, and that is nothing new.
They row back all the time on tax - corporation tax, insurance premium tax and VAT.
What they need to do (spend into the economy) - goes against their ideologoy. So it won't and can't work. It's a sweetner to get through the next few months.
Pot-holes for christ sakes.
(However they all understand the magic money tree really ... they just don't want to educate the electorate about MMT. They can spend before they tax. It's how the money system works.)
James Cleverley on R4 now
James "Cleverly" is proof that God has a weird sense of humour.
Probably better in the "BBC bias" thread, but have you seen the bit on QT where a lady asks BoJo if it's important to tell the truth, and the Beeb edit out the audience laughter ??
Yes, it’s in that thread.
What’s most disappointing is the way so many BBC journalists have closed ranks around it and defended it, rather than even suggest it may have been, in hindsite, at least a tad misleading. Doesn’t look good. Especially after Peter Obourne’s comments about senior BBC staff not wanting to make the PM look bad.
Anyway, the PM doesn’t need help from the BBC, he has his own team massaging the truth…
https://twitter.com/fullfact/status/1197925301319278592?s=21
Chloe westley is head of digital coms for Johnson's election campaign
She's your usual, ex-wife taxpayers alliance, vote leave staffers who accidentally tweeted support for far right Anne-marie waters & works with turning point, the pro trump youth organisations with links to white supremacist etc
So expect the fake news disinformation campaign will only build up before.polling day
Rob Dixon - on the energy firms moving overseas. I have read up a bit more on it and it appears we were both wrong. Its been done as an attempt to thwart nationalisation - not because of the 10% share thing.
Not that it will prevent nationalisation but it will make it harder to do it by paying a fair price rather than the market price.
anyway - apologies to you for getting it a bit wrong and hopefully you will be a little clearer on it. good piece in the Guardian
I’m still astonished the Johnson was allowed to dismiss the recent poor NHS performance against it’s targets as unprecedented – you bastards have been in power 9 years, these issue are “precedented” as they’ve been building up year on year as performance struggles, your policies have helped create a lot of these pressures, your policies will actively work against the steps necessary to resolve them and not one bloody interviewer went after him over it!
They don’t want to fix it, though. They want to run it down to the point where they can start to sell bits of it off to their mates. Total conflict of interest.
^ That clip needs a "Jamie" soundbite from "The Thick Of It"
"Just answer the question you fat ****"
Not surprising, nothing to upset the boat like Mays dementia tax. Play it super safe and cure it!
Well I'd say this time in contrast to May's single policy failure on the dementia tax, this tory manifesto may well be seen as a failure in it's entirety. Never in my life following politics have I seen a manifesto offering in a GE with so little ambition or action promised. Either they want to lose, or they're taking winning for granted. They seem to have calculated that toning down their ambitions will expose labours as non-credible and that could massively backfire.
And labour won't even have to do any dodgy video edits.... (edit: beaten to it, although no harm to have it twice)
https://twitter.com/gully_burrows/status/1198617752514244614?s=20
Just reading in today’s Observer that the Tory’s poll lead has now increased to 19 points.
What can you do Binners?
I can only accept that I'm out of time.
Ah well, better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
Time for a bit of subversion.
“ Not that it will prevent nationalisation but it will make it harder to do it by paying a fair price rather than the market price.”
Hold on TJ - weren’t you telling us a few threads ago that Labour’s plans wouldn’t result in any companies or shareholders being out of pocket?
If the Labour loons will now be forced to pay fair market price for the things they take / steal, that will mean that shareholders (mostly held by pension funds - mostly impacting people not the toady old hedge funds etc) will now receive more than they would have done. Which is good.
Even this is bobbins though. The cost of nationalising the water industry alone is estimated at £160b - which equates to £5280 government debt per household. If they made water free for ten years people would still be out of pocket - and by the time the unions have got control water will be more expensive than it is now and we’ll also have to chip in for the capital investment required.
I can only accept that I’m out of time.
Ah well, better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
Honestly, the amount of people undecided or who just haven't even started paying attention yet is more than you think. That's also topped up with people who don't really care either way.
There's still time to explain to these people the situation.
Rob 0 you are still conflating nationalisation of strategic monopolies with the 10% shares to workers.
Utter Bobbins on nationalisation BTW - who do you think pays for investment now? Privatised monopolies are more expensive - they have to be. additional bureaucracy and shareholder profits
Nationalised we get the profits. Now if its a good investment for private money its also a good investment for public money. You cannot have it both ways.
Edit - and government can borrow money much more cheaply than private companies.
With that I am back out of politcs thread for a while. Dipping in and out is the only way I can preserve my sanity so much nonsense is spoken particularly the right wingers who do not realise how right wing they are
we’ll also have to chip in for the capital investment required.
we already do, it's a regulated industry and it's how OFWAT decide what water prices we can be charged based on required infrastructure investment each AMP
The anti nationalisation lobby makes me laugh.
The Tories took utilities that were priceless, things that were classed as basic human rights and run for the benefit of all and sold them for peanuts.
Take profit out of the equation and it's obvious to anyone not blinded by greed that utilities, education, transport should be managed for the good of society.
Remember society?
Not shareholders.
Everyone.
All of us.
Even this is bobbins though. The cost of nationalising the water industry alone is estimated at £160b – which equates to £5280 government debt per household. If they made water free for ten years people would still be out of pocket – and by the time the unions have got control water will be more expensive than it is now and we’ll also have to chip in for the capital investment required.
Water privatisation has been a disaster,a fair chunk of your water bill goes to service the loans the investment firms that own the companies took out.
we have a great comparison, because Scottish Water is nationalised and has far less debt, considerably cheaper bills, better water quality, and less leaks than in England
And this is all a huge improvement, at the time of its formation Scottish Water's infrastructure was the worst in the UK, it's now the best- all this was done by a cheaper nationalised service while the privatised rUK service has seen a decline in water quality, increase inleaks & bills!
Even the FT has been saying the model is broken & customers are being screwed
https://www.ft.com/content/b60e062e-9712-11e8-b67b-b8205561c3fe
English & Welsh customers have been shafted by privatisation & yet johnsons fanboys defend it coz obviously corbyn/nationalisation =bad , whatever the evidence says
Water privatisation looks little more than an organised rip-off
Bills are rising to fund massive shareholder payouts
https://www.ft.com/content/2beee56a-9616-11e7-b83c-9588e51488a0
Welsh water has see a massive turn around since being made a not for profit
Beth Rigby pretty much nails it unfortunately: https://news.sky.com/story/general-election-the-tory-manifesto-is-a-lightweight-document-of-brexit-rhetoric-11869640
All Boris has to do is not shag anything and keep the headbangers like JRM away from any microphones or twitter.
In fact I suspect he could get away with more shagging stories - 'good ol' Boris - what a lad'.
James “Cleverly” is proof that God has a weird sense of humour.
and he's MP for.........Braintree!
TJ - you'll be back soon: you can't help yourself.
If you're not on here, who else will you disagree with?
I can have an argument in an empty room. I'll be fine. 😉
However getting exasperated leads me to typing things I should not given I will always remain on a shoogly peg on here.
I will be back but dipping in and out helps my sanity and saves the mods trouble!
robdixon
Member
Even this is bobbins though. The cost of nationalising the water industry alone is estimated at £160b
When estimated by the water industry, sure.
Here's the bit that is carefully ignored. Water like most other nationalised industries is so profitable and therefore valuable because it gets tons of public funding, because it's weakly regulated, because piss-poor standards are tolerated, and because regulatory breaches are routinely fined at a rate lower than the cost of not breaking the regulations. Cost is nationalised, profits are privatised, failure is rewarded. Any industry would be worth a fortune in such an environment
It wouldn't take a hostile environment to massively reduce the exaggerated value of these industries, simply a reasonable one. Tie funding to performance, enforce the rules that exist, upgrade the penalty structure so that doing it wrong is at least as expensive as doing it right. You know, like we'd already do if it wasn't all mad.
Of course an actual hostile environment would be easy to arrange too, if they just learn from the past masters...
dannyh
Member
They don’t want to fix it, though. They want to run it down to the point where they can start to sell bits of it off to their mates. Total conflict of interest.
The exact opposite works for nationalization. We've seen so many cases in the past where governments have made life difficult for industries and sectors, all the tools are tried, tested and ready. Just turn them around.
Cleverley is an interesting example of whatever the exact opposite of nominative determinism is.
... Already long ago, from when we sold our vote to no man, the People have abdicated our duties; for the People who once upon a time handed out military command, high civil office, legions — everything, now restrains itself and anxiously hopes for just two things: bread and circuses.
This election is the worse I can ever remember. Whether people like it or not, Brexit is the main issue. The opposition parties are all promising to add even longer uncertainty to it by having further votes on it, when the country has suffered far longer than it should have already.
Only the Torys promise to get it done and move on as a priority.
Where as really Brexit should have been done by now, and the other important things of concern in this country should be getting addressed: housing; education; NHS, and social care, etc.
I have heard lots of people I know say that they wont be giving their vote to any of them because they are all useless, but that is not going to help either.
Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for the current major parties in the UK, and we will soon get someone with vision and integrity to get behind ... I guess 1930s Germany were saying the same!
Only the Torys promise to get it done and move on as a priority.
Which is impossible to deliver.
This
electioncountry is the worse I can ever remember.
fify
Only the Torys promise to get it done and move on as a priority.
That's nice coming from the people who created the mess in the first place.
Only the Torys promise to get it done and move on as a priority.
Where as really Brexit should have been done by now, and the other important things of concern in this country should be getting addressed: housing; education; NHS, and social care, etc.
The issue is that while the Tories will "get it done", or at least claim they have they will then not move on to sort out the things that are actually important because they don't care about them, as proved by the last 9 years and all their terms before that.
Saying all parties are useless because Brexit has taken 3.5 years and counting is them underestimating the complexities of it and misunderstanding that that the parties are ensuring that crap doesn't happen (with an impact on those who are now calling the parties useless)
Take profit out of the equation and it’s obvious to anyone not blinded by greed that utilities, education, transport should be managed for the good of society.
That would be great. But the huge cost to buy them would be better spent elsewhere. If improvements and re-investment are required the govt should make the companies do it; they are supposed to be in charge.
If anything should be nationalised it's the big 4 accounting/consulting co.s, They are evil. They are all sucking at the teat of public money, all signing each others expenses, all scratching each others backs, and all getting paid huge amounts with no real oversight.
And no real value.
Only the Torys promise to get it done and move on as a priority.
@mooman It's amazing that after watching the last 4 years of paralysis as we tried & failed to negotiate the easy bit- the withdrawal agreement.
That people are still so clueless to think think that the far more complex Future Relationship will magically be easier, when Johnson has repeatedly stated that he wants to diverge much further from EU rules, ensuring that talks will be much, much more divisive & damaging.
Where as really Brexit should have been done by now, and the other important things of concern in this country should be getting addressed: housing; education; NHS, and social care, etc.
It's taken 40 years to integrate into the EU, are you so naive that you think we could just reverse all of that with a few votes in the commons & a commemorative 50p coin?
mooman
Only the Torys promise to get it done and move on as a priority.
ransos
Which is impossible to deliver.
I'm staggered that people actually still believe this promise and what they think "get Brexit done" means.
Any trade talks will ultimately collapse due to the inherent contradiction at the heart of it
The ERG headbangers driving this whole thing want to diverge from the fundamentals of the EU project. They want to deregulate our economy, tear up workers rights, re-write environmental standards and change tax laws etc. This goes against the very principles of the single market.
The EU will never agree to this. Why would they?
When the real negotiations start, things will get very real, very quickly
The Brexit people were promised was always a right-wing neoliberal fantasy. Any serious pursuit of it would have a catastrophic impact on our economy
If improvements and re-investment are required the govt should make the companies do it;
And the companies hold out the hand to govt pleading poverty whilst paying their shareholders a fat dividend. You don't see any conflict in that? Here's an idea, if the govt regulated so that utility companies weren't allowed to pay a dividend and capped executive pay until they didn't need public subsidies whilst at the same time meeting targets for invsting in infrastructure then nationalisation might not be necessary. If privatisation worked that's what they would do, but they don't because it's a broken model.
I find it amazing anyone still thinks we'll be better off post-Brexit. They have clearly not been paying attention.
Where as really Brexit should have been done by now
Look, the only people who told you Brexit could be done with quickly in 2016 are the people telling you now it can still be done with quickly. Have you not learned your lesson?! If you want Brexit, fair enough, but please have the intelligence to realise it’s a decade long project. You’ve had three additional years to educate yourself about what is really involved, don’t accept three word propaganda from Cummings and Johnson again… look into it.
Excellent thread by the scarily accurate at predicting political future (check out his brexit flow charts) Jon Worth
https://twitter.com/jonworth/status/1198877298180669440
Johnson's Brexit is just the beginning of a very long painful process
I find it amazing anyone still thinks we’ll be better off post-Brexit. They have clearly not been paying attention.
It's not a question about being better off, it's about being in charge. They'd rather be listened to and worse off than ignored and better off. What amazes me is that they can have both by voting labour and so far the great british public appear not to want that. Until people realise they're living in a plutocracy and not a democracy then very little will change.
Watched this yesterday on the deeper problems, it explains a lot, everyone should watch it.
What amazes me is that they can have both by voting labour and so far the great british public appear not to want that.
Being 'better off' like the people of Venezuela is less attractive than you think it is.
The Brexit people were promised was always a right-wing neoliberal fantasy.
If it's so right wing, why don't labour make a stand against it? A clear stand to stop article 50?
Is it because, as was pointed out 30 pages ago, that the biggest Brexit areas are traditionally Labour supporting?
How does that fit with the theory?
If you want Brexit, fair enough, but please have the intelligence to realise it’s a decade long project.
Jezza says he'll get a deal in 3 months.
Jezza says he’ll get a deal in 3 months.
A withdrawal deal, not a trade deal. You know that full well though so stop being a ****. Or maybe you don't? If not then go away and inform yourself better before spouting rubbish on an internet forum as if they're facts.
Jezza says he’ll get a deal in 3 months.
He says he’ll get to the Labour version of where Boris is now in three months. That may be slightly optimistic, but not ridiculous, seeing as the Labour position is much more closely aligned in regard to a customs union etc. Much less painful all round. Following such an agreement, a trade deal should be simpler too.
Jezza says he’ll get a deal in 3 months.
I’m not suggesting @mooman should listen to Corbyn, I’m suggesting he looks into what Brexit entails and how long it will take before it is “done” and we don’t have to deal with it anymore.
Jezza says he’ll get a deal in 3 months.
Johnson got one in less (well May's deal &y conceding to the EU on the backstop)
thats just the WA he's talking about though
and as for actually negotiating a Labour Norway deal & the much closer alignment that comes with it will be far less rancorous & damaging than & much much quicker than Johnsons planned one
If it’s so right wing, why don’t labour make a stand against it? A clear stand to stop article 50?
The people presently 'leading' the labour party are the same sort of deluded ideologically driven fantasists as the ERG. They have also spent their entire political careers being fundamentally opposed to the very principles of the EU.
They have radically different agendas, but both hinge on being outside the EU
You know that full well though so stop being a ****
You know when you've hit a nerve with a Labour supporter...
And you kind of ignored the other point in my post with your frothing...The issue I have is that is what people will hear from Labour. 3 months and we are done; one way or another. It's cobblers, just like Boris's nonsense. But it's held up as a statesmanlike way to navigate the brexit issue.
It isn't
Thank you binners; much more sensible
You know when you’ve hit a nerve with a Labour supporter…
so were you lying or confused about not knowing the difference from the WA of FR?
and your other point also misunderstands the ref vote
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/07/north-poor-brexit-myths
the TOP 5 leave voting seats are all Tory
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36616028
A withdrawal deal, not a trade deal. You know that full well though so stop being a ****. Or maybe you don’t?
I’m sure Corbyn has made that distinction clear when telling the public what he intends to do about Brexit, yes?
When he says “get it sorted” at every opportunity, he’s not implying it can all be done within a short timescale, is he?
kimbers - Crossed post while I was editing; see above
Boomerlives - Thank you binners; much more sensible
Well. This should tell you something Binners... 😂
(Although I notice that you have toned it down a tad recently, to be fair...)
And you kind of ignored the other point
When you deliberately misrepresent (ie lie about) simple facts then weirdly I don't feel the need to engage with anything you say. If you want people to engage in a discussion, basic honesty would seem like a good starting point.
And right on cue, as a reminder from a previous era when our politics wasn't so totally unhinged, Tony Blair states the bleeding obvious
Tony Blair says both the Tories and Labour are 'peddling fantasies'
I don’t feel the need to engage with anything you say
But you did...how odd
And right on cue
I've been waiting for Blair to do his bit to prevent a labour win. And he says he wants to stop brexit? He can't help himself can he? Always wants to be the centre of attention. He's like the labour version of Jacob Rees Mogg, and should follow his example by disappearing.
Where as really Brexit should have been done by now...
Really? I think the whole idea should have been ditched by now.
Hello everyone. I'm not too keen on getting caught up in the Labour/Brexit argument, but I have a question so here goes:
I like the idea of "negotiate a softer brexit, confirm with another referendum". I'm just concerned that 3 months of negotiation seems a bit tight, given the first WA took 2 years. Is there a good reason why 3 months could be realistic?