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The yanks have a population of 300+ million and have 50 states – each with strong local powers and yet we cannot have stronger regional powers?
Brexit was pointless enough.
And yet if people had felt more connected to politics, Brexit might never have happened 5thElefant!
DazH, where are you on this? I want to hear from you, your opinions on the way we are divided have influenced me here!
So Boris and Swinson took a pounding there eh? 😆
If the polls don't start to shift after that, England is lost, forever! 😆
80k/yr is 2.85 times the average in Bolton and 2.05 times London. So, yes, 80k is way up there in both places. How expensive a place is to live doesn't necessarily affect the salaries of the people who live there.
If the polls don’t start to shift after that, England is lost, forever
The only thing Boris has to do to win is not screw up massively. Anyone else and you'd think it was a dead cert. but there is an outside chance. There was nothing I that performance that's going to move the polls much. He took some hits but nothing major.
I don't understand why everyone is so obsessed with Corbyn picking a side/campaigning for one side in his proposed solution. His addresses the problem in the original referendum. Show people the deal, and ask them if they want to leave on those terms or stay. Why do you give a crap which way he wants it to go as long as he does what you tell him?
Anyone who doesn't think £80K a year is a lot of money is ****ing insane. Imagine life on the national average and then think about that £80K again. And then think about life on National Minimum Wage. Still think you're hard done by?
If you're (generic, not specific) finding it hard to make ends meet on that sort of money you're an idiot and should learn to live within your means.
Mr 80k turns out to be from Bury. Not many 80k earners up here, the self entitled prick. I work in Bolton and I’m seeing homeless every day.
80k/yr is 2.85 times the average in Bolton and 2.05 times London. So, yes, 80k is way up there in both places. How expensive a place is to live doesn’t necessarily affect the salaries of the people who live there.
But it does affect their ability to absorb tax increases doesn't it, including those on the median income in London.
Someone on 28k a year in Bolton or £1881 PCM after tax, would need to earn £3,231 after tax to have the same standard of living in London - around 60k.
Disparities like that need to be factored into decisions on taxation, otherwise you will just further fuel the divide between London and the North.
80k in London is not rich.
Try telling that to to poor bastards that that deliver your food or serve you a sammich in pret. Where do you think they live? Do they commute in just to work in fast food?
Anyone who doesn’t think £80K a year is a lot of money is **** insane.
Agreed. And people reminding us that you need to be rich to really live the good life in London doesn’t change that. Yes, there are better places to live than London if you’re not rich, we get that.
I'm pleased to see that forum posters from both sides of the Brexit debate and apparently of strongly opposing party political allegiances seem to be in broad agreement in this thread.
A growing disparity of wealth is something we all find very offensive, we just differ in our view of who is responsible for it and how we should address it.
It's a start, I suppose.
Tories have played a blinder by refusing to send anyone to newsnight for past two nights, not even cleverly. They must be pissin themselves watching the new bbc attack dog du jour Emma Barnett going at the labour guy. But seriously why bother ? Why even publish a manifesto. Just do the bare minimum and watch the votes roll in from the binheads.
Try telling that to to poor bastards that that deliver your food or serve you a sammich in pret. Where do you think they live? Do they commute in just to work in fast food?
Of course - but they're lives are even less affordable than they are in the North.
Different countries have different tax regimes to suit their own local conditions, the difference between London and the North is now just as great as the difference found between many countries. It's holding both areas of the country back by having them on the same tax regime, the North needs to tax certain pay brackets more and perhaps even try to get industry in by cutting corporation tax, London perhaps less so (right now) with its current affordability crisis.
raybanwomble
Member
Try telling that to to poor bastards that that deliver your food or serve you a sammich in pret. Where do you think they live? Do they commute in just to work in fast food?Of course – but they’re lives are even less affordable than they are in the North.
Different countries have different tax regimes to suit their own local conditions, the difference between London and the North is now just as great as the difference found between many countries. It’s holding both areas of the country back by having them on the same tax regime, the North needs to tax certain pay brackets more and perhaps even try to get industry in by cutting corporation tax, London perhaps less so (right now) with its current affordability crisis.
Or perhaps the uk need to stop being so london centric and spread the investment around to bring the other areas up to the same level.
Of course – but they’re lives are even less affordable than they are in the North.
Tell them to get off thier arses and move to Sunderland then?
They can then earn an honest wage without fear of becoming redundant .. Oh wait..
ROFL
Someone on 28k a year in Bolton or £1881 PCM after tax, would need to earn £3,231 after tax to have the same standard of living in London – around 60k.
Well I'm a bit dubious of your numbers but generally I agree. The higher the basic costs of living, the less discretionary spending power they've got. So taxes would cut into that more.
Or perhaps the uk need to stop being so london centric and spread the investment around to bring the other areas up to the same level
Could this not be partly helped by allowing the North to up income tax and drop corporation tax, allowing it to invest more and also steal business from London?
There are lots of ways to skin a cat, I really think the UK needs something creative to try and sort the mess we are in. I don’t see what is currently on offer by any party, healing the polarisation.
We all care about our fellow human beings on here, usually when the shit hits the fan for a forum member everyone contributes despite their political affiliations. A lot of us just differ on implementation, we need to find a bipartisan way to make this dingy ****ing island a better place.
Anyone who doesn’t think £80K a year is a lot of money is **** insane. Imagine life on the national average and then think about that £80K again. And then think about life on National Minimum Wage. Still think you’re hard done by?
I am in that bracket and my money is pretty much gone by the time pay day comes. That doesn't mean I am not rich, it just means I have found things to spend/waste my money on (big mortgage, new car, nice food, lots of animals) Minimum wage wouldn't even cover my mortgage payments.
And because I am in that bracket it allowed me to buy a relatively expensive house which now has a lot of equity in it so worst case I could sell up and live in a flat and live on minimum wage.
Not a choice for anyone that is not rich.
But it does affect their ability to absorb tax increases doesn’t it, including those on the median income in London.
Someone on 28k a year in Bolton or £1881 PCM after tax, would need to earn £3,231 after tax to have the same standard of living in London – around 60k.
Disparities like that need to be factored into decisions on taxation, otherwise you will just further fuel the divide between London and the North.
Can you run through this with me slowly, because you seem to be suggesting that the North is favoured in the North South divide? I mean I'll admit I was a bit lost when you started ranting on about 80k not being much, but this post is downright befuddling are you suggesting tax increases for the north to help the struggling south?
Rayban, the North, in general, already hates London and all it stands for and you think increasing individual taxation there will fix that??? Great plan. [/sarcasm]
There needs to be massive investment in pretty much everywhere except London and I doubt that even that would be enough to fix the north-south divide.
Heard a guy on the radio yesterday moaning that his £100k salary made it hard to get by as his wife didn't work in order to look after their 4 kids, so what with mortgage, two cars etc, he only had £800 a month left for saving and discretionary spending.
Apparently that wasn't what he went to university and worked 60 hours a week for, just to pay more tax to support the ****less workshy.
I wasn't moved to sympathy by his plight.
the North, in general, already hates London
I love London. Could never afford to live there. I’m not sure taxing people more simply because they’ve came to the same conclusion makes much sense. A local income tax, or a wealth tax that’s a bit less of a guess than council tax, has merits though.
I absolutely love that.
Just to quantify:
We don’t hate London at all.
We hate a London-centric government that doesn’t even bother to pretend it gives a shit about us.
The investment in transport infrastructure sums it up. We watch the billions poured into Crossrail as we sit in converted buses from the 1980’s trundling down Victorian train lines. When they actually turn up.
Another reason to vote Labour. We might actually see some desperately needed infrastructure investment.
We were promised it by George Osborne with all his Northern Powerhouse bullshit. None of it ever materialised.
We need proper devolved power to the regions in this country. We’re the most centralised economy in the developed world, and that isn’t working for anyone outside the south east
Binners, didn't 'the North' get all those lovely new trams a while back? Not Victorian ex busses?
Molly, binners is referring to the fact that Northern uses Pacer railway carriages, they're based on converted coaches, they were a "stop-gap" introduced in the '80s and we were promised that they'd be phased out this year, but that's slipped a couple of years. Northern Rail still hasn't managed to agree terms with it's drivers and conductors, so our weekend trains are based on whether enough drivers can be arsed to turn up for some overtime.
When a Tory minister says that perhaps Northern is so rubbish that it may have to return to public ownership, you know they are properly shit
Interesting if not very deep analysis of UK taxation. Remember in most of europe you pay healthcare on top of taxation ( albeit not to US levels)
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2019/nov/23/are-britains-high-earners-taxed-too-much-or-too-little
NOw this shows the nonsense spouted on here that if we raise taxes a tiny bit all high earners will flee to mainland europe - they won't because even after Corbyns tax rises we still will be taxing less than most.
HS2 was started at the wrong end to begin with.
The money for LHR’s 3rd runway would be better off spent at either Manchester, Brum or LGW - there’d probably be loose change for a few hospitals after too!
We’ve a history of doing shite civil engineering in this country & precious few passable ones.
I’m F’d if I know why we find it so hard!
Is “the money for LHR’s 3rd runway” coming from the state?
And HS2 is all about increasing north-south capacity… just get it build. It “starting in the North” is a red herring. Just GET IT DONE. North connected to South, not a chunk of it.
Anyway… distractions… I came here to start pushing this, hard…
http://www.bestforbritain.org/getvoting
Kelvin - starting from the north means it cannot end up as a Birmingham / london commuter line which is what is now going to happen and a northern cities to Birmingham HS line would have more benefits than a London / Birmingham one as well as being cheaper
Warning: mild language
DazH, where are you on this? I want to hear from you, your opinions on the way we are divided have influenced me here!
Catching up now my hangover is receding... 🙂
I think I've talked about this before, but to rehash it (hopefully consistently), I've always been of the opinion that less hierarchy, more democracy and more agency for the people are good things. This applies to everything, including taxation and what it is spent on. Obviously things like brexit don't appear to support giving people more power, but I'd say the exact opposite is true.
Whichever side you're on, brexit (and the scottish referendum before it) has clearly demonstrated that the people want to be more involved in decision making, and also the desperate need to ensure those decisions are based on informed opinions. That will only happen if we put trust in the people, and carry out their wishes even if they appear to do something as stupid as brexit.
I think it's self evident that the more agency and power people have, the more involved they will be. Over time they will become more informed, and I think more collaborative. Even when they disagree, they will learn to do so in a respectful way and hopefully the divisions we see today would begin to dissipate.
In short, yes we should devolve everything, including taxation and spending decisions as much as possible and put those decisions in the hands of normal people.
Tj … you need to compare congestion and under supply in and out of Brum. It makes no sense to increase capacity to the North and not the South. We need both. Linking just to the North increases bottleneck problems.
Apart from train journeys around the north! Thats my point
A local income tax, or a wealth tax that’s a bit less of a guess than council tax, has merits though.
Wealth taxes are the way forward. Why do we tax income and not wealth? Taxing income penalises hard work and not taxing wealth promotes rent-seeking, as proved by the ridiculous situation where we've turned the national housing stock into a pension fund.
Another reason to vote Labour. We might actually see some desperately needed infrastructure investment.
This election campaign is having some very odd effects. I'm agreeing with Rayban and Binners is a labour supporter again. Strange times. 🙂
Sounds like a lot of referendums, regional MPs, regional bureaucracy…
There's a way to fix that. If you were going to move towards much more devolved local government where people have more of a say in decision making then you'd need to completely rethink the idea of representative democracy, or even better get rid of it. I've posted this before on other threads but it's a fairly accessible discussion about how direct democracy could work. (try to see past the anarchist stuff BTW, it's only a daft label)
https://libcom.org/library/direct-democracy-anarchist-alternative-voting
Over 300,000 people registered to vote in one day this week.
It’s not looking like voter apathy is going to be an issue this election, which is a healthy thing
Something tells me Sajid Javid will be joining JRM and Priti Patel in a locked room for the next 3 weeks.
https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1197991583154618368?s=20
Devolution is a good idea, and the UK is unlike most other places in that lower levels of gov't (a region, or a city/town) have autonomy over certain areas and a way to raise money independent of the higher levels but you have to have a system of equalising areas. Otherwise you end up with areas that have carpeted pavements to save wear and tear on their loubitins and other areas which don't have schools
Kind of like now.
raybanwomble
Member
Or perhaps the uk need to stop being so london centric and spread the investment around to bring the other areas up to the same levelCould this not be partly helped by allowing the North to up income tax and drop corporation tax, allowing it to invest more and also steal business from London?
There are lots of ways to skin a cat, I really think the UK needs something creative to try and sort the mess we are in. I don’t see what is currently on offer by any party, healing the polarisation.
We all care about our fellow human beings on here, usually when the shit hits the fan for a forum member everyone contributes despite their political affiliations. A lot of us just differ on implementation, we need to find a bipartisan way to make this dingy **** island a better place.
bit of a big ask, london has benefitted from over investment, so to expect other areas of the country to get up to the same level withought similar over investment is unrealistic.
The reasons for London's dominance are historical and ultimately geographical. It's the same all over Europe. Most of the countries with multiple major cities are the ones that are amalgams of smaller kingdoms/duchies etc.
its also political MOlgrips. Look at the investment in public transport - thats a political choice - its cheaper, they get huge amounts spent on London at the expense of the rest of the country. too often London gets the money and sucks money out of the rest of the country and the rest of us pay for it.
Most of the countries with multiple major cities are the ones that are amalgams of smaller kingdoms/duchies etc.
How big is Cardiff compared to London?
How big is Cardiff compared to London?
If you know your history, you'll know Wales was never an autonomous modern state.
Most autonomous regions have one large city, simply because as soon as one place gains primacy in the modern commercial age then it snowballs because the businesses need to be where the other businesses are.
France? Been a unitary state for a long time with several large cities.
Check out how much the council tax is in Westminster - cheapest in the country I believe 🙁
Companies have started moving the ownership of assets abroad - as reported in The Times today.
SSE and National Grid are complete (the former to Switzerland and the latter to Hong Kong and Luxembourg) with other energy companies having already set up new holding companies.
Expect to see most large companies (> 250 employees) follow in order to avoid Labour’s 10% company theft plan.
Labour’s 10% company theft plan.
Theft to some, sharing the companies wealth with those that have helped to create it to others. All depends which side you are on I suppose.
actually Rob they are moving because of the tories disastrous hard brexit plan - not because of some made up interpretation of labour policy - and where are they moving to?
Expect to see most large companies (> 250 employees) follow in order to avoid Labour’s 10% company theft plan.
Twaddle. There is always threats of companies moving abroad in such circumstances, very little actually happens.
Why would they start moving abroad now when the polls points to a Tory victory?
Besides there's no loyalty in business irrespective.
Any decent company would want to make it work for their workers. Shows them for what they are *if true*.
Parasites.
How can they have already moved to avoid a new Labour policy? Did they know it was being proposed? Are they so sure Labour will win?
Its like the idea that every rich person will move abroad if we put a penny on income tax - when actually our tax rates will still be lower than in the rest of the EU so they would be still even after a tax raise under labour be paying more tax wherever they move to.
“actually Rob they are moving because of the tories disastrous hard brexit plan“
Yes they are so worried about the impact of not being in the EU that both companies have established new legal entities in non EU countries..
Tories & their bonkers brexit behave already scared off 1tn in assets
That's cost the treasury ~1% of tax take already
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2019/03/11/new-research-lays-bare-900bn-city-brexodus/quote
Fk business
Rob - they have gone to Switzerland that has full trading rights with the EU and Luxemburg that is in the EU. Unlike the UK which is going for hard brexit.
Expect to see most large companies (> 250 employees) follow in order to avoid Labour’s 10% company theft plan.
This has got to be the funniest post that I’ve read for ages on this thread.
Yes, the reason that the companies are leaving is a recently announced policy by a party that probably won’t get elected, NOT the clusterfudge of asshattery that has been a Tory led Brexit looming for the last three or four years.
The mental gymnastics performed by Tory voters never ceases to amaze me.
If the tories get the majority the polls are predicting then I may well revisit my emigration plans.
If the tories get the majority the polls are predicting then I may well revisit my emigration plans.
Shift up Scotroutes, we are on our way!
Good news for those of you who keep banging on about Swinson, you were right, and the LibDem support is slipping in all the polls. The bad news is that, just as we warned you, this means Conservative support is rising, and Johnson’s majority is coming. So Labour are now safe as the main party of opposition. Champagne all round.
[ I’m not cut and pasting poll results here, but they all say much the same thing, the Tories are doing “well”. ]
Oops
https://twitter.com/PolhomeEditor/status/1198521225817006080?s=19
At least it's only a meagre amount like £58bn, eh?
At least it’s only a meagre amount like £58bn, eh?
So you think it's ok to rob thousands off women approaching retirement with almost no warning who had paid in to the system all their lives? How would you feel if your pension provider told you they were arbitrarily extending the date you could claim your pension and there was nothing you could do about it?
CaptainFlashheart
Member
Oops
So Labour are going to fix yet another Tory managed cockup?
shame on them!
58 billion over how long? How much per year? Who did the costing anyway? How much savings in benefits to offset this?
How would you feel if your pension provider ...blah blah blah... nothing you could do about it?
The same as what I'd do when Labour put my tax bill up to pay for all Jezza's nonsense. I'd lump it and pay it.
This wanton act of equality only puts women on the same footing as men anywho.
A lot of the pension uncertainty is the result of a Labour wheeze anyway. One of the first acts of the last Labour Govt was to plunder all pension funds; an act that made most of them unsustainable and pretty much killed the DB pension for most normal peeps.
Once the private DB pension was not sustainable, it opened the door for Public sector pensions to be deemed 'unsustainable' and wasn't there a lot of fuss when their contributions were increased, and the benefits reduced?
Pensions are only forecasts, until you actually receive them.
How would you feel if your pension provider told you they were arbitrarily extending the date you could claim your pension and there was nothing you could do about it?
Fairly indifferent. The pension age has increased over my life time so far and wouldn't be surprised if it was extended again before I reach it. When 65 was the retirement age people typically died by the time they were 68. That age is now 78 so even with a retirement age of 67 that is still 8 years more on average for each retied person.
The age needs to be made the same for male and female and no easy way of doing that without pissing off the people benefitting from the lower age.
Yes, Labour should have included this, and the cost of it, in their manifesto. That doesn’t make it (or the people effected) something that they should just brush aside, as the other UK parties seem happy to do.
As others have said, pension age needs to be aligned, and, obviously, parties of all colours are going to be pushing pension age in general up. But people need to be properly forewarned so they can prepare for it.
So Labour are going to fix yet another Tory managed cockup?
Not the way they are going, they aren't
Actually it was the tories allowing employers to stop contributing to pension fund that damaged them the most.
But then - when did a right winger ever stop blaming labour " now look what you made me do"
How would you feel if your pension provider told you they were arbitrarily extending the date you could claim your pension and there was nothing you could do about it?
You take them to court and prove they acted illegally and win the case.
https://www.fbu.org.uk/news/2019/06/27/firefighters%E2%80%99-union-wins-landmark-pensions-case
Next milestone date 18th Dec
boomerlives
Subscriber
So Labour are going to fix yet another Tory managed cockup?
Not the way they are going, they aren’t
ah well.... but still, all journeys start with a step in the right direction 😉
All great balls ups start by falling backwards too.
when did a right winger ever stop blaming labour
I'm not a right winger; I'm firmly centrist. But I am utterly certain I'm to the right of you...
All great balls ups start by falling backwards too.
Like instigating leaving the EU?
Johnson will tell a Tory audience in the West Midlands. “Uncertainty ended, investment unlocked, a nation moving forward once again,”
by which our great leader basicly confirms that:
Uncertainty has been created, investment has been frozen and a nation is in limbo.
makes sense.
Boomerlives well you do state tory myths as if they were facts.
Do you believe in redistribution of wealth Ie tax the rich to help the poor? do you believe in workers having a say in how companies are run? Do you believe in a decent welfare state? Do you support labours moderate and centrist policies? ( note nothing in the labour manifesto would be out of the usual in most of europe) do you understand that the UK is a low tax low wage low worker protection country?
I am a centerist politically. Its just the centre of politics in the UK is far to the right of the real political centre and loads of right wingers onhere think themselves centerist.
Missed my point, a wee bit.
Labour's great alternative to a bumbling buffoon is Corbyn. Hence BJ is looking a fave to keep the reins.
If they had a reasonable man, with a reasonable plan, they would be in No. 10 already (or woman, obv, but it spoils the soundbite)
Actually it was the tories allowing employers to stop contributing to pension fund that damaged them the most.
A scandalous act; reputed to have cost pensions £18bn
Blair/Brown estimated at costing £100bn.
The Tory's also contributed to the demise of the DB pension by making further demands on the funds by insisting on a widows pension once the principle pensioner had carked it. The bastards
Inconvenient facts aside, both recent Labour and Tory Govt's have both done terrible damage to all pensions, but I've yet to see a Labour fanboi admit it.
“Uncertainty ended, investment unlocked, a nation moving forward once again”
A quick reminder that the “deal” the government has with the EU will last only ELEVEN MONTHS, if Johnson sticks to his word and gives up EU membership in January and refuses to ask for an extension to the transition period. So, uncertainty is not ending when Johnson gets his majority, it is increasing. Keeping EU membership will be crossed off as a possible future, but that does not give any company, or individual, any certainty about what the hell happens when 2020 comes to an end.
any certainty
Neither does labour's plan, to be fair.
I am a centerist politically.
It's nice you think that.
Neither does labour’s plan, to be fair.
Agreed, but they keep emphasising actions that need taking beyond “get Brexit done”…
Oof… radio4 now… I think it’s Cleverly… telling us how Labour didn’t “prepare the UK for a worldwide economic downturn”, while pushing a Conservative manifesto that promises increased spending while also promising not to raise taxes to pay for it. In what way is that preparing us for unseen worldwide economic problems (never mind the blindingly obvious ones they are voluntarily inviting on the UK)?
James Cleverley on R4 now; what a lying dissembler.
Answering different questions to the ones he's being asked.
No questions yet about climate change - and no attempt by Cleverley to introduce it.