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This is what McDonnell means when he says he’s a Marxist. He doesn’t mean he’s going to try and create a Marxist state. This may be confusing for some people but it’s how intelligent people talk.
Exactly. Pretty similar to how I see Marxism. It still goes that most people who use the word as some sort of insult have never even read the first page of Das Kapital.
Bloody Scottish Communists!
I am feeling like Kevin Keegan. But 12 points behind
Surely it’s only fair to see how he does in the Davis cup before calling him names!!
Oh good. One of the main advisors to the Labour leader was a member of the communist party for 40 years, and people aren’t allowed to make anything of that… because… whatever. Here’s an amusing distraction.
And the historical revisionism of Seamus Milne - Corbyns Pet Stalinist - with regards to communism makes for a lively read.
Apparently Stalin was just misunderstood and did a lot of good. We'll not mention the millions of people he killed, obvs. People always bang on about that. Its really not fair on him
But if you want to see a true dictatorship though, look to Brussels and the EU. The evil bastards. Way worse than Stalin!
Like most revolutionary communists Seamas, son of the Director General of the BBC, was privately educated then studied PPE at Oxford, then on to the journalistic establishment.
Theres not much you need to tell him about the struggles of the proletariat. He's lived it, comrade. Come the glorious revolution I'm sure he'll be first in the queue to man the barricades
Just think….. Ten more years of disgruntled placard waving, moaning about the blood Tory’s and general virtue signalling?
Sounds grim but if it's not punctuated by Life of Brian pictures and tiresome yammering about "Grandpa", "allotment" etc I'll just about make it through.
There's Stalin getting a shout now! 😆
Can we call Andrew Murray a marxist?
Wow, just wow:
Murray joined the Communist Party of Great Britain in 1976, aged 18, and became associated with its Straight Left faction. At this time, Murray became a close friend of Seumas Milne, who was also active in Straight Left.[8][12] Murray's allies during the period have been described by Francis Beckett as "more extreme than most of the Stalinists I knew. The Stalinists were known as tankies, but Murray’s lot were super-tankies".[12] Following the dissolution of the CPGB in 1991 he was a leader of the Communist Liaison group, which itself dissolved in 1995 with Murray and its other members joining the Communist Party of Britain.[14] Murray served on the Communist Party of Britain's executive committee from 2000 to 2004 ... He served once more on the party's executive from 2008 until 2011.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Murray_(trade_unionist)#Politicial_activity
EDIT: Beaten to it by everyone. Spent too much time reading it. Anyone else spot the bit about Murray being first Journo on the scene when the INLA killed Airey Neave. Maybe I'm reading more into it that it can bear but feels like a hint that they told him it was going to happen.
people who use the word as some sort of insult have never even read the first page of Das Kapital.
Do you have to have read Mein Kampf to call Hitler a Nazi? Or is it not remotely relevant?
Do you have to have read Mein Kampf to call Hitler a Nazi? Or is it not remotely relevant?
Hang on - the equivalent of that would be calling Marx a Marxist!
Hang on – the equivalent of that would be calling Marx a Marxist!
Biased MSM propaganda claims Marx was a Marxist, in fact he was just a Scandanvian style centerist.
Do you have to have read Mein Kampf to call Hitler a Nazi? Or is it not remotely relevant?
Nope but it would help it you were to call Johnson a Nazi, i.e. you need to know what Marxism is if you are going to use the term.
"I am not a Marxist".
Who do you reckon said that then?
Here's a clue - it wasn't Binners and it wasn't me. 🙂
Interesting that Corbz approached Kevin Maguire first.
would be calling Marx a Marxist!
I wanted to be sure I was calling a nazi a nazi; you know how sensitive some folk can be about labels...
You can’t nail shit to a wall.
I agree. It’s as difficult as pinning down the Opposition Leader’s actual opinion on the defining political issue of the era...
And hitler gets a mention too, I'm calling house in this particular game of 6th form bingo! 😆
Its a veritable who's who of genocidal tyrants
And Jeremy Corbyn would be worse than all of them. Probably.
He looks shifty
Don't you start with the sixth form bollocks too.....
It’s as difficult as pinning down the Opposition Leader’s actual opinion on the defining political issue of the era…
Pretty obvious that he is in a no win situation. If he says he will back remain then he is a remainer who is against the will of the people, if he says he will back the deal to leave then he is a leaver who is neglecting the majority of Labour voters who are remainers.
His option to get a better deal and then let people decide, democratically is a good one but leaves him with the awkward question.
Johnson doesn't have that problem as the Tory is a leave party and easy for lib dems to say whatever they want as they are irrelevant
Don’t you start with the sixth form bollocks too…..
Would you believe I've just had a brief land this afternoon and I'm presently drawing up a poster design to get the kids in the local 6th form colleges to register to vote if they're 18? 😀
Would you believe I’ve just had a brief land this afternoon and I’m presently drawing up a poster design to get the kid in the local 6th form colleges to register to vote if they’re 18? 😀
? 🙂
Anyone have an answer to who was the most famous person to come out with the "I am not a Marxist" quote btw?
Another clue.
It wasn't Nick ****ing Knowles.
Groucho?
Was it the remaining living Chuckle Brother?
Ross Kemp?
Close.
Last clue.
It wasn't Nerys Hughes.....
Margaret Thatcher?
Double post
Ooooh, no.
But please feel free to smack yourself in the testicles for mentioning her name.
It was Karl Marx.
Kids today, no bloody sense of dialectic theory.....
kerley
Pretty obvious that he is in a no win situation. If he says he will back remain then he is a remainer who is against the will of the people, if he says he will back the deal to leave then he is a leaver who is neglecting the majority of Labour voters who are remainers.
His option to get a better deal and then let people decide, democratically is a good one but leaves him with the awkward question.
It's not a huge majority of Labour voted for remain... 36% didn't but despite having had 3+ years Corbyn hasn't taken the chance to illustrate they were lied to. It's rather late in the day now.
He looks shifty
That’s what happens when you try to walk both sides of the street.
having had 3+ years Corbyn hasn’t taken the chance to illustrate they were lied to. It’s rather late in the day now.
A million times this. June 24th 2016. Could have deployed a ready made ‘it is all lies you have made a mistake’ campaign. Plant the seed, keep driving the message home Cummings style.
Nope, rather talk about anything, anything else because right at the crucial moment Jezza bottled it.
Brexit should have finished the Tories as a political force. We are going to get ten years of them. Christ knows what this country will look like afterwards.
To be honest, Labour were screwed the morning of the referendum vote.
Working class remainers are just another example of the strangeness of human nature.
Alf Garnett syndrome innit? "I borrowed a pair of boots to walk 15 miles to vote Tory".
All those I know won't be voting Labour this time.
They will be voting Brexit or Tory and would still do so if Andy Burnham came round, gave them a foot rub and lent them his mascara.
Corbyn's amazing ability to alienate the electorate hasn't helped, but his policies are excellent. Means nowt.
Ah well, glasses, beard, allotment, Diane etc.........
I'd love to hear Johnson tell us what he would do if he was in Opposition: support Corbyn's Leave deal or campaign for Remain? He'd have to do one or the other - can't refuse to answer on this most important question of our age.
Presumably he’d do what he did when he resigned from government… vote against what the government are proposing… and talk up his own approach to Brexit. It would be even easier for him than before… because he can point to the awful withdrawal deal he’s already claimed as his own, and insist we left using that.
Brexiters, not remainers, obvs in my previous post.
Alf Garnett syndrome innit? “I borrowed a pair of boots to walk 15 miles to vote Tory”.
That happens all the time.
Every week parishioners traipse into churches to pray for the poor, swear to share their earthly possessions with people in need and then leave and buy the Daily Mail and vote Tory.
I imagine lots of people who do volunteer work in the NHS (like WRVS on whom the bread and butter running of the NHS is scarily dependent) also vote Tory.
Crazy isn’t it?
But then......
Brexit.
This is what McDonnell means when he says he’s a Marxist. He doesn’t mean he’s going to try and create a Marxist state. This may be confusing for some people but it’s how intelligent people talk.
Exactly. Pretty similar to how I see Marxism. It still goes that most people who use the word as some sort of insult have never even read the first page of Das Kapital.
The first page (and the rest) of Das Kapital is such a turgid pile of tedious, poorly written nonsense that I'm amazed that anyone has ever got past page 2, let alone been inspired to create a society in its image.
Let's have a look at the first few paragraphs, to illustrate my point:
" The wealth of those societies in which the capitalist mode of production prevails, presents itself as “an immense accumulation of commodities,”[1] its unit being a single commodity. Our investigation must therefore begin with the analysis of a commodity.
A commodity is, in the first place, an object outside us, a thing that by its properties satisfies human wants of some sort or another. The nature of such wants, whether, for instance, they spring from the stomach or from fancy, makes no difference.[2] Neither are we here concerned to know how the object satisfies these wants, whether directly as means of subsistence, or indirectly as means of production.
Every useful thing, as iron, paper, &c., may be looked at from the two points of view of quality and quantity. It is an assemblage of many properties, and may therefore be of use in various ways. To discover the various uses of things is the work of history.[3] So also is the establishment of socially-recognized standards of measure for the quantities of these useful objects. The diversity of these measures has its origin partly in the diverse nature of the objects to be measured, partly in convention."
JP
Working class brexiters* are just another example of the strangeness of human nature.
*correction
No it's not... lots of working class people go to work... they get home and put kids to bed and they might get some time to try and keep in touch on the likes of FB before work the next morning.
his policies are excellent. Means nowt.
Many don't have the time or energy left to read policies... they get some lies broadcast in FB circulated by friends (who got them from friends.. who got targetted by a russian bot)
So… what are they expecting Johnson to deliver for them, when Brexit is “done” in January?
No it’s not… lots of working class people go to work… they get home and put kids to bed and they might get some time to try and keep in touch on the likes of FB before work the next morning.
This isn't an excuse - many of my friends work in the hospitality industry, they do ridiculously long hours as chefs and still manage to avoid being uniformed idiots.
What there is, is a large portion of the population who revere ignorance and actively applaud it - people who consider education and schooling to amount to nothing more than just being another brick in the wall.
Maybe my opinion is colored by the fact that decent chefs are usually bright individuals though.
No - maybe your view is coloured by the fact its obvious you have no understanding of how many folk live.
Really? Lots of working people without two spare seconds to rub together can tell that Farage is a spiv, and Johnson an amoral liar who would rather piss on them than help them.
Just watching a party political broadcast for the Brexit party
If anyone is in any doubt that they’re heavily targeting the... erm... ‘unreconstructed’ labour votes, you wouldn’t be after seeing that.
The pitch is: you usually vote labour, but you voted leave. We know you can’t bring yourself to vote Tory, so vote for us instead so we can ensure Brexit
Subtext: we know you’re racist and you want them all sent back, but you can’t vote for that bumbling blonde dickhead, so vote for the proper racist party
I hate to say it, but they’re potentially a nightmare for labour in Tory marginal seats, this lot.
Dom and Dommer must be thanking the lord for the man-frog, and him not running in Tory seats.
They’ve got the same outriders on board as they had for the referendum, pulling the same stunts. And we all know how that went
Really? Lots of working people without two spare seconds to rub together can tell that Farage is a spiv, and Johnson am amoral liar who would rather piss on them than help them.
+1
I haven't met a bright working class individual who would vote Farage or Tory. I have however, met a lot on the wrong side of the educational distribution curve that would vote for the former.
Stating that they don't have the time to be informed is just the soft bigotry of low expectations - chefs work 70-80 hour weeks, why have I not met one - in the 5 years I worked in kitchens whilst studying, that was a Tory or Farage voter?
No it’s not… lots of working class people go to work… they get home and put kids to bed and they might get some time to try and keep in touch on the likes of FB before work the next morning.
Lots of people have busy lives.
You can find time to inform yourself of current affairs, that's what the radio is for.
And it's not to do with class.
I mentioned working class people because my post was specifically dealing with Labour's historic safe heartlands.
The most politically aware people I know come from working class backgrounds. Working class people have always had to fight to provide themselves with the knowledge and opportunity that the ruling classes would love to deny them.
The point applies to us all. Brexit voters of whatever social background have more similarities than differences.
No Rayban - once again you show your bigoted views and your complete lack of understanding
.................and still manage to avoid being uniformed idiots.
What there is, is a large portion of the population who revere ignorance and actively applaud it – people who consider education and schooling to amount to nothing more than just being another brick in the wall.
Maybe my opinion is colored by the fact that decent chefs are usually bright individuals though.
So here we have naked prejudice, negative stereotyping and pure snobbishness all in one post.
a post you could only make because you have no understanding of the lives some people live and because you clearly hold bigoted and snobbish views about people you have never met
So here we have naked prejudice, negative stereotyping and pure snobbishness all in one post.
I'm sorry - but the "they don't have time" doesn't wash. A lot of people work long hours TJ - it's giving people a poor excuse. This is more snobbish, it denies people any agency and allows the underlying issue (a poor education system that people are not connecting with) to be ignored.
Education is the issue, state schools do not equip people to be able to make rational and informed decisions in the modern world.
a post you could only make because you have no understanding of the lives some people live and because you clearly hold bigoted and snobbish views about people you have never met
I don't give a **** what you think TJ, I've worked along side people who work more hours for less money than nurses like yourself.
Interesting stat of the day:
1.36 million people under the age of 35 have registered to vote
you have no understanding of the lives some people live and because you clearly hold bigoted and snobbish views about people you have never met
Well.
Brexit voters of whatever social background have more similarities than differences.
I'd agree with that, short sighted and selfish.
I’d agree with that, short sighted and selfish.
I think it's far, far more complex than that.
Education is the issue, state schools do not equip people to be able to make rational and informed decisions in the modern world.
Nonsense. 🙂
I was about to defend you before you posted that little gem.
Well.
Exactly. 🙂
Interesting stat of the day:
1.36 million people under the age of 35 have registered to vote
Which apparently is double the amount for 2017 at this point.
I think it’s far, far more complex than that.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/jun/05/why-working-class-people-vote-conservative
Here we go - from 2012 - almost prophetic hey?
Also, not one mention of people working too many hours to care.
Well Thats really good Rayban the " some of my friends are poor" defense.
You are the man who claimed he knew what its like to be poor - with a university education adn £5000 in debt and having to flatshare. Sure thats just like being poor - my arse. The ability to get £5000 in cedit shows you are not poor. Your whole attitude stinks dude and you are unable to realise this due to the inability to realise that you have no idea at all about the lives of many in the UK.
The difference is that I know I am rich. Oh and CFH - accuse me of inverse snobbery and you might be able to make a case. Its not me thats looking down their nose here at the poor, the illeducated and illinformed
You are the man who claimed he knew what its like to be poor – with a university education adn £5000 in debt and having to flatshare. Sure thats just like being poor – my arse. The ability to get £5000 in cedit shows you are not poor. Your whole attitude stinks dude and you are unable to realise this due to the inability to realise that you have no idea at all about thelives of many in the UK
That student debt was sold to anyone at the time, without any care given as to whether they could repay it or not. I had little to no help from parents to go to university - nor any grants. Hence why I worked in kitchens or even as a baker - with the 4am starts to prep the bakery and then go to lectures.
I know I'm well off now though, you however are so wrong on this even the soft headed sociologists appear to disagree with you.
Here we go – from 2012 – almost prophetic hey?
An interesting but ultimately flawed hypothesis (In my opinion, obviously), as it assumes an equivalence of the various standpoints ('moral flavours') given.
I prefer the explanation that it is easier to appeal to the basest aspects of human nature than the most altruistic.
A point I made some pages ago.
Ach - I shouldn't have got personal and for that I apologise but really rayban - try actually thinking a little and please stop saying that you have understanding of how many folk live when its clear you do not and stop denigrating those less fortunate than yourself. It stinks
An interesting but ultimately flawed hypothesis (In my opinion, obviously), as it assumes an equivalence of the various standpoints (‘moral flavours’) given.
I prefer the explanation that it is easier to appeal to the basest aspects of human nature than the most altruistic.
A point I made some pages ago.
You should look at Haidts more detailed work - that isn't watered down for a general audience, start with his wiki page and go from there.
Ach – I shouldn’t have got personal and for that I apologise but really rayban – try actually thinking a little and please stop saying that you have understanding of how many folk live when its clear you do not and stop denigrating those less fortunate than yourself. It stinks
I'll try to be less obtuse next time in return TJ and I will try and use more subtlety in regards to my opinions. I do think the idea that people don't have time is wrong though, we need to be giving people a sense of agency not telling them they don't have any.
Citizen agency is at the root of our political malaise IMO.
You should look at Haidts more detailed work – that isn’t watered down for a general audience, start with his wiki page and go from their.
I shall, thank you.
And whilst the spirit of forgiveness and reconciliation is upon us I apologise for my characterisation of you as a 'right wing frother' in my post some days ago.
Can we substitute 'libertarian' for 'right wing'? 😉
Your prejudice against those who attended (or didn't) state schools is telling though.
It undermines your standpoint and reeks of prejudice.
I'm a slightly left libertarian, that believes in maximizing the prosperity of as many people as possible (material and environmental before some of you e-lynch me). I sometimes get attached to Left-wing market anarchism but know that it would not work in practice.
Your prejudice against those who attended (or didn’t) state schools is telling though.
It undermines your standpoint and reeks of prejudice.
My time in the state system never included a single mention of the concept of critical thinking - the first time that I came into contact in a semi-state based system with the concept of something like "confirmation bias" was within the university system. Most of my state friends can attest to the same, maybe I went to comp during a particularly bad era?
The ability to get £5000 in cedit shows you are not poor.
That’s an interesting opinion. Assuming you mean debt.
He means debt.
I sometimes get attached to Left-wing market anarchism but know that it would not work in practice.
Me too. 🙂
Life is much simpler when you accept that morality is both relative and absolute.
My time in the state system never included a single mention of the concept of critical thinking – the first time that I came into contact in a semi-state based system with the concept of something like “confirmation bias” was within the university system. Most of my state friends can attest to the same, maybe I went to comp during a particularly bad era?
Maybe you did.
Perhaps you chose or were not encouraged to engage with such complexities, even though the tools to enable you to do so were freely available?
Blaming the state system for your own lack of awareness is the very antithesis of libertarianism.
Blaming the state system for your own lack of awareness is the very antithesis of libertarianism.
Of course, that's why I have done a lot of reading in my own time. I noticed that apathy and lack of agency among my peers when I was a kid and decided I didn't want any part of it.
I don't pretend to know how to give people the tools whereby they are encouraged to do the same though - or whether we need a more strongly funded state system in reality, against my own libertarian leanings. Is the state system the answer - or is it what causes people to disengage in the first place? Do we need a radically different form of education with more freedom and choice where people can self sort? Or do we need hardcore stateism with classes on citizenship?
All I have is a deep suspicion that something is grossly wrong with the way society is educated and that it's evidenced by those who are deeply ambivalent towards it and who do not care for "experts".
Of course, that’s why I have done a lot of reading in my own time.
And yet you abuse Angela Rayner (and everyone else from a similar background) for doing (or not doing, you seem to be confused on the subject) the same as you?
Hypocrisy, no?
And yet you abuse Angela Rayner (and everyone else from a similar background) for doing the same?
Rayner dropped out, sorry - but I stuck with it and got myself out of my shit state school and hometown. She went into a union which was a way out for her, but not one that I believe sets you up to be a competent PM.
Rayner, will be good as a cabinet minister for education or equality, she really isn't PM material like Cooper though. You need someone with more of an international outlook than Rayners background, unless we want to spend another decade navel gazing and misunderstanding our place in the world.
That's my opinion though, it's not in reality fact, and you are entitled to yours. I might have been overly harsh on Rayner as I'm ****ing pissed with the Labour party and Lib Dems as a whole. Tories are tories, we all know that a lot of them (not all) are total bellends (those that have dragged it further right than even Thatcher), so what they do doesn't make me so emotionally livid.
The current education system is f***ed. I say this as someone who has taught at all levels, including the university sector, so this isn't a layman's opinion.
We're still using a lightly modified version of an education system that was designed to suit the needs of industrial revolution era Britain. It's completely unfit for purpose in the postmodern world.
JP
Yeah, I can't make a further comment on that jjprestidge - but maybe you guys can give education a good argue over on my behalf.
Rayner dropped out, sorry – but I stuck with it and got myself out of my shit state school and hometown. She went into a union which was a way out for her, but not one that I believe sets you up to be a competent PM.
This again highlights your hypocrisy.
What makes you believe that her background in care work, her experience as a single parent and her work for a trade union makes her less capable of analytical thinking than yourself?
You appear to have a very high opinion of yourself and a very low opinion of other people who have achieved as much or more by alternative means.
What makes you believe that her background in care work, her experience as a single parent and her work for a trade union makes her less capable of analytical thinking than yourself?
You appear to have a very high opinion of yourself and a very low opinion of other people who have achieved as much or more by alternative means.
I believe that Cooper has a better understanding of global affairs than either myself or Rayner.
Don't take me thinking that Cooper is better equipped for that role than Rayner as some sign that I think I am better equipped to do the job than Rayner. I'd have probably glassed Istanbul with the big red button now ffs.
Cooper has demonstrated her ability to think globally and she has demonstrated a sharper intellect than almost anyone in the Labor party, care work or my own background in my career does not demonstrate any evidence of capability on a world stage.
Cooper comes the closest (and only slightly) to some kind of Labour version of Angela Merkel, that is what Labour needs right now to win.
That's not the question I asked.
I think your responses betray a certain hypocrisy and gives the (possibly incorrect, I'm willing to admit) impression of bitterness, along with a genuine lack of empathy and understanding.
Maybe that's unfair, but I can tell you now that care work makes people desperate to improve themselves and also gives a greater understanding of human nature than anything else I've experienced.
I'd rather be governed by a cabinet of care workers than a cabinet of hypocritical 'libertarians'.
Maybe that’s unfair, but I can tell you now that care work makes people desperate to improve themselves and also gives a greater understanding of human nature than anything else I’ve experienced.
That still doesn't make her better than Cooper for the position of PM, the experience you talk about is what is useful to have in cabinet members.
Rayner is also objectively dire in her media appearances, do you want someone who can hold their own and not be so easily wrong footed by media questioning? We all want someone who cares for the British public, that isn't the only qualification you need to win and be successful in the role.
You must have forgotten how bad Cooper was in her leadership campaign ( and after it!)
You must have forgotten how bad Cooper was in her leadership campaign ( and after it!)
I think she has come along way since then - and the last time I checked she was second behind Corbyn in terms of popularity among Labour membership, Rayner was down in something like 7th.
She appears to have found media form recently.
Rayner dropped out, sorry – but I stuck with it and got myself out of my shit state school and hometown.
Dropped out. Went back as a adult and single parent. 2-1 to her.
Shows she is a striver not a skivver. That should float your Tory? Conservative? Libertarian? whatever it is we've decided you are boat.
And qualifying as a social carer somehow makes you fit for the office of PM? Is being a bit of a "striver not a skivver" now what we hold as the prerequisites to become PM? After elements of the left have spent the past 20 years lambasting the poor educational attainment of people like G W Bush? Does that not leave the left looking like complete hypocrites? Poor educational attainment is okay in a leader - as long as it's one of us.
That should float your Tory? Conservative? Libertarian? whatever it is we’ve decided you are boat.
Let me take a guess at what you think - is it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_fascism ?
And might I add - does the behavior of someone who threatens a shoe shop with a "Do you know who I am" letter just because they sold out of a pair of shoes, sound like the work of an astute level headed politician who believes in a kinder gentler politics - or a two bit Imelda Marcos susceptible to corrupt behavior?
And qualifying as a social carer somehow makes you fit for the office of PM? Is being a bit of a “striver not a skivver” now what we hold as the prerequisites to become PM?
I don't think it means anymore or any less than going to Eton, doing PPE at Oxbridge or Bscimed. It does mean she had the drive to do it on her own, with a child, to improve her chances and that of her child. That says a lot. I have way more respect for someone who goes back to school particularly as an adult, after being unsuccessful at the regular track.
Let me take a guess at what you think –
You couldn't even begin to comprehend half the things I think, comrade.
or a two bit Imelda Marcos susceptible to corrupt behavior?
That pretty much describes most of the house from Jacob Rees mogg on down. At least she's done an actual job, worked at something useful.