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Someone on LBC wants Corbyn to admit he will 'press the button' in the event of our 'defense'.
Doomed.
I'm convinced the electorate just want to pain themselves into oblivion.
Summary of popular polices:
Expensive shit broadband.
Poor quality health service.
Increased Crime.
Less public spending and less services.
Lower tax and Lower wages.
No darkies.
Nuclear War.
Isolation.
Homeless left to die.
Some Trees.
Cash jobs for mates rates.
No foreign aid.
7 day week.
Speed limited raised to 95.
Free Union flag.
The Fuxit Party.
We all know what the problems are. They're glaringly apparent to all. That's not the issue. The issue is who offers the solutions to them.
The Tory's under Joris Bohnson and the ERG have offered up the EU as a universal scapegoat for all these things and Brexit as some magical unicorn-based solution and pathway to the sunny uplands.
Labour should have countered this with their own strong alternative narrative. Unfortunately they're been terminally hamstrung in this, from the off, by the fact the leader of the labour party is a life-long Brexiteer, as are all those around him.
So on the most important issue of the day (on which all other policies are dependent) they are also offering up a magical unicon-based fantasy Brexit as the starting point of their solution, which then, even more laughably they may or may not campaign either for or against (though I'm guessing strongly 'for' in grandads case, no matter what version of the May/Johnson deal he comes back with)
As strong counter-narratives go, its not a great starting point, is it?
As their hopeless polling and total failure to make any impact against this far right, incompetent bunch of sociopaths is depressingly proving
Poor quality health service.
The Greens have promised to increase income tax to give more money to the NHS this morning.
I am always infuriated by this; why is the answer to the NHS problem 'more money'?
If they stopped pissing money away there would be a lot more to spend on sick people. Why does no party want to address that?
I am always infuriated by this; why is the answer to the NHS problem ‘more money’?
If they stopped pissing money away there would be a lot more to spend on sick people. Why does no party want to address that?
You think there's just a dial somewhere marked 'waste' that they can turn down, and yet no-one's thought of it?
Parties do want to address it - in fact, a significant part of the problem is that successive governments have pissed about with the NHS in the name of 'efficiency' with badly thought out ideas to grab headlines. The NHS is massive - so improving efficiency is a huge job. So you hire people to help fix it, then you get endless headlines about money wasted on pen pushers. Politicians like to push stuff through because they make vague promises in manifestos, and they end up screwing things up even more.
You think there’s just a dial somewhere marked ‘waste’ that they can turn down, and yet no-one’s thought of it?
There is; it's marked PFI.
Turn that off and suddenly there's an extra £5 billion a year.
Red Jezza is all for bringing BT into state ownership, but won't touch the Blair/Brown money tree.
BJ just doesn't want to.
why is the answer to the NHS problem ‘more money’?
Because the boomers didn't pay enough tax to support their future healthcare needs
NHS is struggling on many levels , staffing crisis being a huge one, we are utterly dependent on immigrants to fill jobs, but immigrant bashing is a political favourite . Removing bursaries for nurses was a similarly daft bit of austerity that's seen trainees nurse numbers plummet , costing the NHS even more seeking agency staff from oversees
But austerity & restricting immigration are policies boomers love so ...
Because the boomers didn’t pay enough tax to support their future healthcare needs
Didn't? Shouldn't that be 'isn't'? Is the NHS not funded constantly?
Besides WTF is a boomer? I got my user name from Marc Maron's cat, now it's a pejorative term...
Besides WTF is a boomer?
Exact definitions vary, but they're all definitely worse than Hitler
Well, everything's worse than Hitler.
Boris, Donald, Nigel...Hitler was just appealing to the electorate
why is the answer to the NHS problem ‘more money’?
Pretty simple, because it needs more money - straight forward supply and demand.
The demand is higher than ever due to increased longevity of the population yet funding (supply) has not increased in line with it.
You can either increase the supply to maintain the service of you can under supply and offer a lesser service (per last decade)
Social care should also be added to it as it is the same problem.
But austerity & restricting immigration are policies boomers love so …
Change the bloody record kimbers.
Ok Boomer.
The same would still be true if Labour won.
That’s what happens when both parties diverge away from the centre – you alienate more people and make a few people happier.
True ... it's a bit chicken and egg now with Brexit being used to push through what would normally be unelectable. (IMHO)
I absolutely agree with that. Under normal circumstances (Aaaaah....remember them?) no serious political party would dare go into an election campaign with manifesto's this laughably unrealistic and packed with such transparently undeliverable and completely unaffordable nonsense.
But the Brexit campaign has shown that you can promise any old shite (which describes both main parties present proposals) and not only will people vote for it, 3 years down the line they still aren't holding you to account for it.
It seems that in Brexitland you can use emotive, populist bullshit as a cover for pretty much anything. And with both parties as bad as each other, where that does leave the rest of us who can see both of them for what they are?
How on earth did we end up so far through the looking glass that our political system now looks like this?
Tonights 'debate' will involve 2 charlatans pedalling 2 contrasting bundles of credulous claptrap
cinnamon_girl
Subscriber
But austerity & restricting immigration are policies boomers love so …Change the bloody record kimbers.
look, I backed up my assertions with some numbers, I know you dont like me CG, but respect the stats!
>
I absolutely agree with that. Under normal circumstances (Aaaaah….remember them?) no serious political party would dare go into an election campaign with manifesto’s this laughably unrealistic and packed with such transparently undeliverable and completely unaffordable nonsense.
Nope.
Intense Government spending is the only credible way out of the junk we're in.
It's not unaffordable by any shot.
Tonights ‘debate’ will involve 2 charlatans pedalling 2 contrasting bundles of credulous claptrap
We won't bother watching it because you've be at your crystal ball again.
Maybe you could peg back your predictions as fact?
If you can't see the difference between Corbyn and Johnson for the benefit of the nation as whole, then you see nothing.
look, I backed up my assertions with some numbers, I know you dont like me CG, but respect the stats!
The stat's posted say nothing of the sort.
It just shows that fewer older people voted labour and voted conservative, it doesn't show WHY.
It certainly doesn't cover the droves of labour voters who voted for Brexit ... many of whom did so because of their perception of immigration or perhaps due to the Labour position on immigration.
Nor does it really cover why older people seem to beleive there is no such thing as a free lunch regarding austerity and more puzzling why they thought leaving the EU was a free lunch?
If you can’t see the difference between Corbyn and Johnson for the benefit of the nation as whole, then you see nothing
I didn't say that there's no difference between them. Theres a yawning chasm.
But what they both share is the one essential quality when wanting to be put in power for the next 5 years - the total absence of the slightest shred of credibility when it comes to implementing the glaringly unicorn-based nonsense they're both presently peddling.
You think either of those idiots are presently putting forward a credible economic position which they truly believe isn't comically implausible?
They may be planning very different routes to economic calamity, but that's where both their roads will take us.
My only hope is that neither think they'll get a majority so they're promising all kinds knowing they'll never have to deliver it.
But then we all know what happened the last time someone did that...
i'm mostly puzzled by the 4% of UKIP supporters who voted remain...
But the beauty is … promising to increase borrowing to spend on public service hides the fact that both have no choice but to increase borrowing hugely to get us through Brexit. At least with Labour they do have some proper revenue raising plans as well.
Nope.
Intense Government spending is the only credible way out of the junk we’re in.
As if to prove the unicorns.... just spend money for the sake of increasing spending and push UK PLC further into debt in some bizarre belief that by increasing our GDP will actually make the people better off.
i’m mostly puzzled by the 4% of UKIP supporters who voted remain…
At some point even some UKIP supporters realise sticking a dildo on a donkey isn't a unicorn.
just spend money for the sake of increasing spending
Who is proposing that? I haven’t seen any “just keep people busy” or “build it for the sake of it” proposals from any party. In fact, most of it looks more like “other countries are laughing at us for not already doing that”… although some of it is likely to take much longer than currently proposed/presented (again, for all parties).
But the beauty is … promising to increase borrowing to spend on public service hides the fact that both have no choice but to increase borrowing hugely to get us through Brexit. At least with Labour they do have some proper revenue raising plans as well.
I don't disagree ... but had Corbyn got off the fence before the referendum and made it clear that Brexit was a train-crash for the working population we wouldn't even have this mess.
Intense Government spending is the only credible way out of the junk we’re in.
Even if you spend £100bn on free BB so that the masses can all watch cat videos? Is that justifiable?
Just saying "spend" is another worthless soundbite. You have to spend wisely and well
Which party is setting themselves up to do that?
the masses can all watch cat videos
Ok Boomer.
Even I'm not sure about the just announced Labour policy to de-list companies who 'don't tackle climate change' from the LSE. Might be a step too far for the current political climate.
As if to prove the unicorns…. just spend money for the sake of increasing spending and push UK PLC further into debt in some bizarre belief that by increasing our GDP will actually make the people better off.
Understand how the money system works... The government spends first and taxes after.
i) Even the most middle-ground Economists agree that given the cost of UK borrowing - that kick starting the economy through rapid investment of infrasturcture would yield huge returns over the medium turn. The Tories failed to capitilise on this. Completely.
ii) Debt as a ratio of GDP is still not anywhere near post-war levels. When - guess what we needed to massively invest in the economy.
https://obr.uk/box/post-world-war-ii-debt-reduction/
iii) A sovereign country that is the sole issuer of its own currency shouldn't be concerned by debt per se. In fact a country in surplus (which very rarely happens) is a negative in the private sector. I.e No growth.
What did we do in 2008? Yep Q/E and it didn't affect inflation to any notable degree.
Read Stephanie Kelton, Randall Wray or Richard Murphy.
look, I backed up my assertions with some numbers, I know you dont like me CG, but respect the stats!
kimbers, I don't dislike you and haven't a clue why you think that, am sorry that you do. Stats can be manipulated every which way depending on what you're trying to prove. That pic is taken from a small percentage of the population.
To be clear I stopped voting Tory some 20 years ago, on some occasions I haven't voted and latterly have voted Labour. Yes, I voted for Brexit but that did not mean I in any way supported the Tories. I don't and loathe everything about them. You must stop believing that all Brexiteers are Tories, it's often not true.
Who is proposing that? I haven’t seen any “just keep people busy” or “build it for the sake of it” proposals from any party. In fact, most of it looks more like “other countries are laughing at us for not already doing that”… although some of it is likely to take much longer than currently proposed/presented (again, for all parties).
It's simply been extended mileage from the backlash over Tory implemented austerity that itself was a backlash over Labour led overspending .... back and forth with one extreme or the other.
You think either of those idiots are presently putting forward a credible economic position which they truly believe isn’t comically implausible?
Christ man cheer up! I know we've been living under this corrupt upside down system for a long time but you really have been brainwashed by the economic orthodoxy haven't you? To hear someone like yourself describe the moderate, sensible, investment-led policies that labour propose as 'unicorns' and not credible is truly depressing. If you really think this then we might as well all give up.
There really is another way, and it's not that difficult to achieve given a modicum of political will and vision. It's been done before in the post-war years, and it can be done again, and it's not nearly as revolutionary as you think. It does however require people to believe in it, and to fight for it. If we don't then we only have ourselves to blame.
I am always infuriated by this; why is the answer to the NHS problem ‘more money’?
Because the two most expensive things the NHS spends money on are drugs and staff, and the cost of drugs is going up, and we have a staffing shortage.
iii) A sovereign country that is the sole issuer of its own currency shouldn’t be concerned by debt per se.
There is a world of difference between issuing currency and repaying debt in other currencies.
In fact a country in surplus (which very rarely happens) is a negative in the private sector. I.e No growth.
Once again the narrative goes away from trade deficit and we talk about the govt spending deficit.
Has anyone seen Diane lately, I haven't seen much of her during the campaign.
Is she being kept in a bunker out of harms way or on jezzas allotment planting next years spring crops.
Has anyone seen Diane lately, I haven’t seen much of her during the campaign.
The two parties reached an electoral pact.
She's being kept hostage in a remote farmhouse for the duration of the election, with Jacob Rees Mogg to keep her company.
They're killing the hours by her re-sitting her maths GCSE and him learning all about 20th century post-war history, a lot of which is proving quite challenging to them both
I think JRM needs to further back else he'll still have gaps in history
Kind of difficult having a hypocrite like Diane about, what with the pledge regarding private education.
FWIW, I used to like Diane many moons ago, before she sent her kids to private school whilst being ideologically opposed to them.
I think JRM needs to further back else he’ll still have gaps in history
They're having to do all this in stages.
He's still reeling from he whole welfare state and formation of the NHS thing. He's been sat rocking back an too, gently sobbing for quite a few days now. Not even nanny can console him
FWIW, I used to like Diane many moons ago, before she sent her kids to private school whilst being ideologically opposed to them.
... and then fiercely berating anyone who had the temerity to point out that there might be an ickle bit of an inherent contradiction in this position.
… and then fiercely berating anyone who had the temerity to point out that there might be a ickle bit of an inherent contradiction in this position
This is the nugget for me ... had she turned round and said she was wrong rather than what's good for my kids is too good for yours.
The whole Dianne Abbott private school thing did lend itself to a classic episode of the Thick of It, where Julia Murray refuses to send her daughter to a comprehensive school and went private, which led to an epic Malcolm Tucker outburst
Oh, well that's great. That's *ing great. That's another *ing thing, right there. Not only you've got a *ing bent husband and a *ing daughter that gets taken to school on a *ing sedan chair, you're also *ing mental!
😂
https://twitter.com/ftukpolitics/status/1196795054880415744?s=21
Well, there you go… PM to only do a USA style 2 person head to head… might as well call him Mr President now.
Well, there you go… PM to only do a USA style 2 person head to head… might as well call him Mr President now.
Because he's scared shitless that Nicola Sturgeon will tear him an extensive selection of new arseholes on live TV?
I agree with every word of this…
https://twitter.com/tictoc/status/1196800824229474310?s=21
…but it still feels like he’s actively trying to stop people listening to those words! Is it just me? Do I just need more coffee?
Catatonic
I actually think he's got a massive barbiturate habit. He's clearly been on the jellies.
Maybe it was nearly afternoon snoozy-bye-bye's time in the shed on the allotment, curled up with his favourite tartan blanket over his knees
Catatonic
FFS man stop being an arse. They cut the video to start at the exact point he was blinking, so that dullards who didn't watch it think 'oh look, he's half asleep, he must be tired, that's because he's to old to be PM'. Clearly it works!
Raise the reality shields!
Did you see his speech* at the CBI yesterday?
Dear god! He looked like he was sedated. As I said on the previous page
Like a bored middle manager at a photocopier convention telling disinterested telesales staff about his companies latest developments in toner cartridges.
He's been on auto-pilot for over 2 years now. I thought he might perk up a bit once the starting gun had been fired, as we keep being told he's apparently 'a natural campaigner'
Campaigning for what? Another mug of Ovaltine before the shipping forecast?
*the word is used figuratively in this instance
45%
https://twitter.com/johnrentoul/status/1196807021464555527?s=21
> think happy thoughts <
https://twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1196796322688442369?s=21
> prepare to celebrate as a success <
…but it still feels like he’s actively trying to stop people listening to those words! Is it just me? Do I just need more coffee?
Is the nationalisation program fake news now?
No, but it’s not “anti-capitalism” as many excitedly claim, just bringing some monopoly providers of infrastructure and services back under public ownership. Without competition, there is always a battle between the approaches of state regulation and state ownership to ensure delivery to all and prevent market abuse. In some areas, regulation proves not to be enough. We’ve had publically owned banks, post office, railway lines and railway services in recent years, without people asking “Communism?” Of course, it would be easier to explain all this without the likes or Milne&Murray&Co hanging around in the shadows…
Very glad Corbyn is emphasising growing the economy [just don’t mention Brexit].
it’s not “anti-capitalism” as many excitedly claim, just bringing some monopoly providers of infrastructure and services back under public ownership.
It is, however, a stupid idea that is meant to appeal to misty eyed old socialists who remember the good old days of the TUC running the show.
There's bigger things to focus on, this is a distraction. Maybe Brexit will be brought up tonight and Jez will just ignore it?
a stupid idea
Ok Boomer.
Lens contributions are always helpful.
For the Tory's.
He puts a lot of time and effort into finding ever more imaginative ways of him and fellow multi-millionaire Jezza remaining in permanent opposition while still carrying on picking up their big salaries and infinite perks
Every time he opens his gob, Labours poll ratings take a 5% hit
feels like he’s actively trying to stop people listening to those words!
This saddens me. We all decry personality politics and sound bite speeches, but when we see a video of a calm speech, saying really quite sensible, but not exciting things, we jump on the ‘OMGz! YAWN! SNOZEFEST!’ Bandwagon. We’ve been gaslighted as a nation into wanting big exciting people as leaders, despite their vacuous and empty hearts.
The human race gets the leaders it deserves, rather than needs, it seems.
We all decry personality politics and sound bite speeches, but when we see a video of a calm speech, saying really quite sensible, but not exciting things, we jump on the ‘OMGz! YAWN! SNOZEFEST!’ Bandwagon.
And when you say "We", you mean Binners don't you.
And when you say “We”, you mean Binners don’t you.
Yes, the rest of the country love it. Clearly.
From C4 news last night, economic thinking is moving on from the free market idealism of the the 80s, 90s and 00s. Maybe we should be framing the free marketeers as the misty eyed nostalgics....
The bit at about 4:20 in from ex banker and Tory Treasury Minister is especially relevant if you don't want to watch the full 15 mins
Its not too much to ask to have some middle ground between a bumbling, badly-drawn, latin-speaking cartoon character on acid and the human equivalent of a rusting, brown Austin Allegro.
There are plenty of capable politicians in both main parties. Unfortunately for us, none of them are anywhere near either front bench. They are stuffed with complete imbeciles, who's only qualification for being in a senior position is their unquestioning loyalty to the idiot they refer to as their leader
No, but it’s not “anti-capitalism” as many excitedly claim, just bringing some monopoly providers of infrastructure and services back under public ownership. Without competition, there is always a battle between the approaches of state regulation and state ownership to ensure delivery to all and prevent market abuse. In some areas, regulation proves not to be enough. We’ve had publically owned banks, post office, railway lines and railway services in recent years, without people asking “Communism?” Of course, it would be easier to explain all this without the likes or Milne&Murray&Co hanging around in the shadows…
Very glad Corbyn is emphasising growing the economy [just don’t mention Brexit].
It's all yes/no/maybe ... Yes enough to get pounced on and commie labels but no/maybe for the best part of 40% Labour voters that voted LEAVE.
How is this costed? Is it costed with remaining or leaving?
From C4 news last night, economic thinking is moving on from the free market idealism of the the 80d, 90s and 00s. Maybe we should be framing the free marketeers as the misty eyed nostalgics….
or maybe we should deal with the immediate problem first?
FWIW, I used to like Diane many moons ago, before she sent her kids to private school whilst being ideologically opposed to them.
My kids' education trumps my political beliefs: I can't speak for Abbott, but I'd take a deep breath and send my kids private if the only alternative was a particularly bad state school.
My kids’ education trumps my political beliefs: I can’t speak for Abbott, but I’d take a deep breath and send my kids private if the only alternative was a particularly bad state school.
Which is fair enough but then say so....
What exactly is a bad state school anyway as in what makes it bad or worse than other state schools?
There are plenty of capable politicians in both main parties.
I'd have more sympathy with this view if the ones you repeatedly promote weren't Andy Burnham, Yvette Cooper, Jess Phillips and Anna Soubry. Again though you're obsessing about personalities, when what we should be concentrating on is the policy and the direction of travel. Thatcher was a very capable politician, look where that got us.
Good point.
Binners - do you actually want to see state owned railways and utilities?
My kids’ education trumps my political beliefs: I can’t speak for Abbott, but I’d take a deep breath and send my kids private if the only alternative was a particularly bad state school.
Where do you think Dianne (or any other politician for that matter) lives? In the middle of some Jeremy Kyle sink estate? I doubt the schools in the vicinity of their homes are going to be hotbeds of teenage pregnancies, free school meals and knife crime.
And what percentage of Dianne's constituents do you think would have the option of private schooling open to them?
Binners – do you actually want to see state owned railways and utilities?
I know you're not asking me but at this point in time the question is IMHO irrelevant.
Most importantly what I don't want to see is rushing into it and doing it badly.
... and it will only happen if Labour get elected with a majority anyway so it's pie in the sky...
They are stuffed with complete imbeciles, who’s only qualification for being in a senior position is their unquestioning loyalty to the idiot they refer to as their leader
on that note, out on my lunchtime run today, I very nearly ran into geoffrey cox and his 'entourage'. fortunately I heard his ridiculous voice before I saw him. i thought it was a persona he put on for parliament but it seems not.
Where do you think Dianne (or any other politician for that matter) lives? In the middle of some Jeremy Kyle sink estate? I doubt the schools in the vicinity of their homes are going to be hotbeds of teenage pregnancies, free school meals and knife crime.
I can’t speak for Abbott
And what percentage of Dianne’s constituents do you think would have the option of private schooling open to them?
My kids’ education trumps my political beliefs
Most importantly what I don’t want to see is rushing into it and doing it badly.
Railways are already state owned. Are you talking about the services run on them? Where’s the “rushing”? Taking them into public hands when franchises end is the Labour plan, isn’t it? Remember the East Coast mainline services? What did they cost the UK state when publicly run for a few years, above what it was costing when in private hands?
I don’t have a problem with privately owned and rail services in some (many) circumstances, bu there are definitely routes that being failed year after year, with the government mostly shrugging and saying “not on us”. It is on the government. And taking franchises (I’d prefer it to be selective rather than rolled out everywhere) away from companies, and running them publicly, can’t come soon enough in some areas.
Binners – do you actually want to see state owned railways and utilities?
Is there another way to ensure that profit making parts subsidize non-profit making parts? So public transport on busy routes did it on less busy routes but makes it possible to serve people who need it?
DA was on Any Questions on Fri- she wasn't great.
I like DA… but she shouldn’t have a front bench position, she can’t handle the communication part of the job. Well, I say that, but look at some of the others… many are worse.
I don’t have a problem with privately owned and rail services in some (many) circumstances, bu there are definitely routes that being failed year after year,
That’s all very well, but it would be (already is in parts of the rail network, the prison service, and the NHS) privatisation of profit and nationalisation of losses. Why should you and I effectively subsidise shareholder profits through our taxes because they want to cherry pick the juicy contracts?
Would I like to see the railways renationalised?
Very much so.
Do I have even the slightest shred of confidence if the ability of Corbyn and the clowns around him not to achieve that task?
What do you think?
I’ve said god knows how many times on this and other threads that my problem isn’t with ideology, it’s with competence.
Look at the influence that idiots like Len McClusky have, then have a think about how their idea of renationalising would pan out?
Just take a moment.,,,
Think it’ll go well?
It wouldn’t and the electorate know it. That’s why the tories are polling at 45% and we’re going to end up with a 1000 year Tory reich.
Think labour will win in 2025? **** no, they’ll make Rayner leader.
So 2030 at a minimum.
they’ll make Rayner leader.
#BackingBurgon