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Asking you to explain how you can recognise immigrants isnt nitpicking. Its questioning your racist language. Perhaps you didnt mean to write it that way but considering instead of thinking about that for a second and rewording it you just started hurling abuse that makes me think you did.
It is clear you are either a racist or an absolute idiot incapable of admitting you made a mistake. Or both since there is a large intersect between the two categories.
Oh my days, apparently stating that there are no immigrants clogging up CyB is racist language - and stating or defending the idea that they actually are is not racist.
Are you Donald Trump?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M
Agreed binners. It wont happen but what Labour should say is:
A second referendum is the quickest way to finish Brexit.
Jeremy Corbyn will remain neutral on Brexit but all other Labour MPs and members are free to campaign how they choose.
All the other policies need tidying up also- maybe something like: Where a state subsidised monopoly is failing a Labour govt will take it over.
Enjoy the top of the neoliberal pyramid until you get knocked off.
Hopefully the revolution will be televised. 🙂
The insistence on persevering with the free-market capitalist model is even more mystifying when you look around the world and see all the successful socialist economies.
Baffling
Yes but a politburo ponzi scheme is much fairer.
Not again… we all live in mixed economies… and policy differentials are all about where the balance between public and private, consumer purchased and taxation funded, regulated and deregulated, lies. There are very few markets in any countries that are “free”, without involvement from the state and intrastate bodies. There are very few services in any countries that have no public provision within them whatsoever.
Ah, but that wasn't real socialism, Comrade.
The insistence on persevering with the free-market capitalist model is even more mystifying when you look around the world and see all the successful socialist economies.
Don't be daft binners. You know as well as I that there are many different ways of running a capitalist economy beyond the two polarised models you mention above. You also know that Labour are not proposing to dismantle capitalism, only to make it a bit fairer by moving the small percentage of it that has been proven to be dysfunctional into state ownership and regulating some other bits of it to make sure multinational companies benefitting from the UK market pay their fair share of tax.
Can anyone name a successful free market capitalist economy? You know a pure free market economy without any state intervention.
The Tory UK, post-brexit?
Oh... successful? Sorry... as you were...
Don’t be daft binners. You know as well as I that there are many different ways of running a capitalist economy beyond the two polarised models you mention above. You also know that Labour are not proposing to dismantle capitalism, only to make it a bit fairer by moving the small percentage of it that has been proven to be dysfunctional into state ownership and regulating some other bits of it to make sure multinational companies benefitting from the UK market pay their fair share of tax.
Which other successful states with a good welfare system have undergone a huge program of nationalisation, stakeholder takeovers and assaults on intellectual property rights recently?
a huge program of nationalisation
Huge? Really?
Trains, electricity, water, broadband - that’s huge in that the costs involved will be. Denying that it isn’t a big investment that is unmatched by any western nation - including the “democratic socialist” ones - is not the way to defend labours position. You need to convince people that it is an economically sound choice.
That is before we mention the seizure of shares and intellectual property.
Trains, electricity, water, broadband
Over what timescale? I agree with all of those, as it happens. I agree that to totally nationalise all of those quickly would be unwise and questionable. Elements of all need to be back in the public sector ASAP though.
That’s the point of nationalisation. I doubt many places would ever have had phones at all if it weren’t for state owned BT. Although I’m not a historical telecomms expert so feel free to correct me.
Who knows ... I rather suspect like most other modern perks it would be because of trickle down economics that despite being deliberately misinterpreted is what has brought us indoor toilets, central heating and mobile phones and now e-cars in my lifetime.
Over what timescale? I agree with all of those, as it happens. I agree that to totally nationalise all of those quickly would be unwise and questionable. Elements of all need to be back in the public sector ASAP though.
Now I can maybe start to see some sense in that line of reasoning, I just don’t think Labours leadership or the conservatives view the economy with the kind of long term planning required to test the water, analyse the effects of incremental change and do this sensibly.
raybanwomble
I just don’t think Labours leadership or the conservatives view the economy with the kind of long term planning required to test the water, analyse the effects of incremental change and do this sensibly.
I see two UK's regardless of how the election goes.... and both rely on unicorns and forced doctrine.
Precisely Steve. If we get either party, then they are going to do things that at least 59 percent of the population hate because of the voting system.
On the topic of labour, I don’t see how making such grand changes to the economy will be seen as legitimate given that they’d likely only have a mandate of thirty odd percent of the population if they did. Their policies are, like the Tories - hated by the other side.
I rather suspect like most other modern perks it would be because of trickle down economics that despite being deliberately misinterpreted
No because as I've shown if left to commercial imperatives then things don't get done. If you look at the few hundred a year you generate from the phone bills of a remote island, versus the £100k it costs to put their phone cable in, why would a commercial company do that?
The policies presently being advocated by both main political parties are just two competing visions of national economic suicide
Very different, but equally insane, with the same end result
I rather suspect like most other modern perks it would be because of trickle down economics that despite being deliberately misinterpreted
thats entrely the problem
its not trickled dowm, https://ig.ft.com/gb-broadband-speed-map/
There’s more consensus than the noise suggests… both parties are committed to throwing money at improving communications infrastructure, and both parties are happy to claim that ending our Freedom of Movement is “democratic”.
Very different, but equally insane, with the same end result
No, cos in one the poor get looked after, and in the other the rich get looked after.
had a local labour canvasser round yesterday
I felt slightly bemused to hear myself explaining to him that, even though we are both pretty much as unimpressed with Labour as at any point in the last 12ish years, it's likely to be the first time we've both voted Labour in a GE...
No, cos in one the poor get looked after, and in the other the rich get looked after.
On the run up to this election, millionaires are writing the Labour manifesto, and ordinary members told to lump it. Will it be any different if they win?
I felt slightly bemused to hear myself
Well done Doris, I’m in the same position. Anyone that helps Johnson get a majority because they are disappointed in what Labour are doing or offering, need to have a long hard think about what they’re doing.
thats entrely the problem
its not trickled dowm, https://ig.ft.com/gb-broadband-speed-map//blockquote >
In what way? Anyone can move to an area with faster broadband if for some reason you think that is how you define your success in life or as per the article they can pool together and lay their own.
Anyone can move to an area with faster broadband
Whoosh… that’s the entire point going over your head.
Whoosh… that’s the entire point going over your head.
Exactly ... though the fact remains.
You can tax the people who live in areas with faster broadband (including the poorest living in zero and 1 bed fire traps) to subsidise those who refuse to move because they are enjoying many benefits of living in for example a small Scottish island but who's kids can go outside and have a garden.
while we are at it we can build a dual carriageway bridge and open a Starbucks...
Well done Doris, I’m in the same position. Anyone that helps Johnson get a majority because they are disappointed in what Labour are doing or offering, need to have a long hard think about what they’re doing.
I'm not in that situation but I'd vote labour if it was relevant.
However, it really won't make the UK a pleasant place whilst the biggest divide in the country is brushed aside.
FFS
https://twitter.com/independent/status/1196352646543761410?s=21
After the local Green candidate has stepped aside and campaigned for Labour locally.
So, this is the pitch to young people is it? You can’t trust Labour on climate change. You can’t trust Labour to make this a less hostile place for migrants. You can’t trust Labour to protect your right to leave the country to better yourself.
People blame the young for not voting, but it’s a vicious circle of pandering to the Boomers of this world, and expecting the younger generation to lump it and vote anyway.
both parties are committed to throwing money at improving communications infrastructure, and both parties are happy to claim that ending our Freedom of Movement is “democratic”.
That's why Labour need to be a party of opposition, rather than "what they said, but we are nice"
LibDem's have that, but still no realistic chance.
BJ it is, then.
And maybe then, for once, the Labour party will listen to the electorate rather than Momentum and get a leader in who can pull the party along behind them. Can they not bring John Smith back from the dead?
BJ it is, then.
If he wasnt determined to launch us off the Brexit cliff & plunge us into a decade more of these divisive & poisonous Brexit negotiations, then maybe
but youd be insane to think that this will be good for the country
After the local Green candidate has stepped aside and campaigned for Labour locally.
The Green party candidate in our constituency (Bury North) stepped down yesterday and issued a statement supporting the labour candidate (ours is an ultra-marginal Tory/Labour seat). I'm sure he'll be happy with todays back-tracking.
I presume this is another policy decided and voted on by the membership at the party conference and now dropped like a hot turd because Len said so?
Is there anyone in Momentum still gullible enough to buy the complete cobblers that Corbyn and his cabal are in any way 'restoring democracy to the party'? looks like they're making it up as they go along
On the run up to this election, millionaires are writing the Labour manifesto, and ordinary members told to lump it. Will it be any different if they win?
Yes.
If he wasnt determined to launch us off the Brexit cliff & plunge us into a decade more of these divisive & poisonous Brexit negotiations, then maybe
The issue really STILL is that unless you believe in unicorns that both sides look like a cliff edge. Unless you want to abandon democracy then Labour can't do anything except be a opposition unless they come out with something people enough will vote for.
On the run up to this election, millionaires are writing the Labour manifesto, and ordinary members told to lump it. Will it be any different if they win?
Yes.
So you are basically saying the manifesto is what? Lets con the electorate then do what we planned?
On the run up to this election, millionaires are writing the Labour manifesto, and ordinary members told to lump it. Will it be any different if they win?
Yes.
Yes, because the leadership of opposition parties always become infinitely more democratic and accountable once they get their mitts on the levers of power, and theres absolutely no track record whatsoever of them developing authoritarian streaks and becoming tinpot dictatorships. Particularly given the open, transparent, democratic and accountable nature of those in the bunker around Corbyn
So you are basically saying the manifesto is what? Lets con the electorate then do what we planned?
Eh? I don't think we are talking along the same lines.
Manifestos are, as always, this is what the party wants to do, but it may not work out that way. At least Labour are being honest by withdrawing plans they don't think they will end up doing. I doubt Johnson has any intention of following through with anything in particular.
I, for one, could never trust a lifelong Brexiteer to fight my corner.
JC has voted against every single major piece of pro-EU legislation since 1975.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.markpack.org.uk/153744/jeremy-corbyn-brexit/amp/
(I used that link as it conveniently has a good list of JC’s record on EU).
If Labour had a more pro EU leader then they’d have a much better chance of getting somewhere.
And maybe then, for once, the Labour party will listen to the electorate
And bring back hanging, you mean?
Can anyone name a successful free market capitalist economy? You know a pure free market economy without any state intervention.
Chile is the usual poster boy for the lib'tards. Oh. Hang on a mo' ...
Eh? I don’t think we are talking along the same lines.
Manifestos are, as always, this is what the party wants to do, but it may not work out that way. At least Labour are being honest by withdrawing plans they don’t think they will end up doing. I doubt Johnson has any intention of following through with anything in particular.
I don't disagree however most voters view them as "what we will do if you vote for us", not even "what we will do if we get a majority".
I think it's safe to say that nothing coming out of Boris's mouth is the truth (I'm not eve3n sure he knows what truth is)... but I somehow expect a higher standard from Labour....
Nobody knows what the labour manifesto is. Certainly not Corbs, he struggles with what a manifesto is.
The labour manifesto is whatever Len and Seamas say it is
In exactly the same way that the Tory manifesto is whatever Dom has decreed it is, from his Bond villain Lair underneath number 10
The whole concept of democracy in this country is hardly looking in good shape on any side, is it?
Not voting tactically gives you this:
https://twitter.com/pme_politics/status/1196191858688503809?s=21
So concentrate on what matters, in your seat. Vote to stop Johnson.
There is no way on earth that this election will give Labour a majority. Zero. None. Where as…
https://twitter.com/pme_politics/status/1196191865403559936?s=21
It doesn’t matter if you want to avoid Corbyn having the power to do anything Milne&M&M&co want… it just isn’t going to happen. It doesn’t matter if your find the idea of Swinson as PM a painful joke, it just isn’t going to happen. All that matters is that Johnson is going to get his majority, unless you help stop his candidate in your seat. Hold your nose. Get your vote in. Make it count. Stop Johnson.
Just had a look at the real experts... the bookies
Conservative majority 1.4/1
No overall majority 3/1
Labour majority 26/1
So concentrate on what matters, in your seat. Vote to stop Johnson.
Will do. I will be voting for the runner up to the Tory and my part towards that 10% will really be socking it to Johnson.
The whole concept of democracy in this country is hardly looking in good shape on any side, is it?
No, as evidenced by the partisan bitching on this thread. Snide remarks, insinuation, reductio ad absurdum, all to back up your pre-existing bias. Yeah sure, you can accuse me of that too but at least I'm trying to be rational. Most people on here aren't, or at least are failing.
Just had a look at the real experts… the bookies
Conservative majority 1.4/1
No overall majority 3/1
Labour majority 26/1
Yep. Odds for no overall majority are now higher so less likely than a few weeks ago. Johnson's lies are working well, as expected.
Oooo I might put a tenner on each!
Any chance shy Tory has turned into shy Labour syndrome in the polls?
Will Corbz trounce Boris tonight? His performance on Marr suggest not.
but at least I’m trying to be rational
And there's your mistake.
Anything about UK politics look rational to you at the moment?
'Rational' went well and truly out of the window on 24th June 2016 and its been all downhill since then
The issue really STILL is that unless you believe in unicorns that both sides look like a cliff edge. Unless you want to abandon democracy then Labour can’t do anything except be a opposition unless they come out with something people enough will vote for.
really?
the only way out of this mess is a 2nd ref, & Johnson's hard brexit means there will be no money forthcoming to fulfill his obviously bogus pledges, with a decade of these bruising & divisive negotiations to endure
the only way out of this mess is a 2nd ref
As strongly remain as I am, objectively this is true.
His performance on Marr suggest not.
That interview was like someone begging for you not to vote for Labour.
Proper shouting at the TV stuff… anyway…
https://twitter.com/spittingcat/status/1196443527342895104?s=21
the only way out of this mess is a 2nd ref
Not necessarily
What about riots?
Rioting would be miles more fun than a second referendum. We do nowhere near enough rioting in this country. When compared to our continental cousins, our inability or unwillingness to take the streets and lob petrol bombs about is frankly embarrassing.
I've had enough of being reasonable. I say we torch the gaff
What about riots?
Rioting would be miles more fun than a second referendum. We do nowhere near enough rioting in this country.
You see, Binners, you have much more in common with Jeremy than you think.
Will Corbz trounce Boris tonight? His performance on Marr suggest not.
Again, the line of questioning was 4th grade. To waste all that time on are you a remainer or not. And keep drilling it - black and white. It shows no understanding of what is relevent.
Marr is terrible.
His intro is also the worse thing on telly.
Come the glorious revolution, Comrade Marr and his compatriots will learn to be suitably reverential to the glorious leader, or face the consequences
Anything about UK politics look rational to you at the moment?
Labour look entirely rational to me. Reverse a lot of Tory shit.
What doesn't look rational is the disconnect between Corbyn's critics and his actual demeanour, and their inflexibily to deal with someone they (believe that they) don't like and what is for the good of the country.
A day before the GE in 2017 the polls were still predicting a Tory majority.
Marr is terrible, but Corbyn should expect questions on Brexit. The Labour policy of 2nd ref is the best policy, Corbyn's desire to unite the country is a good thing. His unwillingness to come down on a side is also good but he needs to spell out that he'll be neutral otherwise both brexiteers and remainers will think its a ruse.
Also re debate, Corbyn is much better off the cuff and just aiming his talk out at a crowd. He has a better grip of policy and details than Boris and can talk on a wider range of subjects. Boris will undoubtedly be relying on "get Brexit done" and "Corbyn terrorist blah" - Dare Corbz call Boris out on all his dodgy stuff? Acuri, Russian report etc?
It doesn’t matter if you want to avoid Corbyn having the power to do anything Milne&M&M&co want… it just isn’t going to happen. It doesn’t matter if your find the idea of Swinson as PM a painful joke, it just isn’t going to happen. All that matters is that Johnson is going to get his majority, unless you help stop his candidate in your seat. Hold your nose. Get your vote in. Make it count. Stop Johnson.
So much this.
People need to be speaking and explaining this to family, friends, work colleagues as well. Especially in the marginals. The time for silly squabbling has well and truly passed.
Comrade Marr and his compatriots will learn to be suitably reverential to the glorious leader, or face the consequences
Comrade Marr does okay out of state telly - no?
As opposed to Jeremy who’s done very nicely out of Iranian state telly and Russia Today 😂
and just aiming his talk out at a crowd
You mean not being questioned or challenged? Yeah, he’s good then. I’m dreading the head to head. If Labour has any other leader, Johnson wouldn’t have risked having it.
The time for silly squabbling has well and truly passed.
Agreed. There are three realistic outcomes next month…
• A working Johnson majority
• An almost workable Johnson minority (with help)
• An almost workable Corbyn minority (with help)
I was hoping for the third ‘til recently. Actually, I’m still hoping for it, but a lot has to change in the next few weeks for it to be achievable. Not least people waking up to the fact that it isn’t Johnson or Corbyn, it’s Johnson or cooperation of some form across the other parties.
His unwillingness to come down on a side is also good but he needs to spell out that he’ll be neutral otherwise both brexiteers and remainers will think its a ruse.
All this “will Corbyn stay neutral” stuff is probably now irrelevant anyway (he’s now not trusted no matter what he says on Brexit). There was a PM who called a referendum a few years ago, it didn’t go his way. If the next government calls a referendum, and it has remain as an option, I’d rather Corbyn campaigned for the option he prefers, even if his cabinet have the sense to campaign otherwise. As long a M&M&M&co don’t try and sack everyone in Labour who wants to campaign for Remain, what does it matter now?
really?
the only way out of this mess is a 2nd ref,
Yes so why the unicorns from Labour?
& Johnson’s hard brexit means there will be no money forthcoming to fulfill his obviously bogus pledges, with a decade of these bruising & divisive negotiations to endure
Boris only needs to leave and blame everything on the electorate/remainers though to achieve this he is going for extra points in the piss everyone else in the EU off so much we'll never be allowed back.
The problem is even if Boris loses there will still be about 50% of the electorate totally alienated AND IMHO Corbyn will only alienate most of them further.
The problem is even if Boris wins there will still be about 50% of the electorate totally alienated AND IMHO Johnson will only alienate most of them further.
If my maths is correct, even if Johnson gets 45% of the vote, he's still circa 20 seats short of a majority.
Ok that's translating votes to sets literally, but how else can you do it?
So I suppose a tory majority depends on retaining what they have, and making significant gains in terms of seats won. We know they will lose some Scotticsh seats...thats pretty much a given, no?
A Tory majority depends on a couple of things.
1. Gaining marginal leave-voting seats from Labour in the north and Midlands
2. Not losing many remain voting seats to the Lib Dems or independents in the South
The way Joris Bohnson has blustered you'd think this election has been a done deal. It isn't. A lot of those northern and midlands constituancies have an inherent hatred of the Tories (and I really do mean hatred) and will simply never vote for them. And a lot of socially liberal, traditional Tory voters in southern seats are horrified at the parties transformation into the Brexit party.
So the polls are a very blunt instrument as nobody really has a scooby how this is going to play out in individual consituancies.
I know grandad is doing his level best to ensure a Tory majority but I still think that we're on for a hung parliament and some form of coalition. Or maybe thats wishful thinking from me as a Johnson majority really doesn't bear thinking about.
I have a horrible feeling tomorrow nights debate is going to make for extremely uncomfortable viewing. Grandad is absolultely hopeless at anything unscripted - he just hasn't got the ability to think on his feet - and when he starts realising this he then defaults to his peavish Steptoe look and gets really flusted and shouty. Not a good look. Unlike May, Joris Bohnson knows how to push his buttons to get this desired effect too.
I can't help but feel that the exclusion of the SNP and LibDem leaders from the ITV debate plays into the hands of Johnson more than Corbyn as many folk will see the LibDems in particular as irrelevant.
It also means that there is no Remain-supporting voice.
It helps both in three way battle grounds, no?
If my maths is correct
It isn’t.
A lot of those northern and midlands constituancies have an inherent hatred of the Tories (and I really do mean hatred) and will simply never vote for them.
They don’t have to, they just need to not vote Labour.
And a lot of socially liberal, traditional Tory voters in southern seats are horrified at the parties transformation into the Brexit party.
Yes, they are. But Johnson probably just needs to hammer home “it’s me or Corbyn” to neutralise the LibDem vote in those seats though. And Labour (and you could argue ITV) are helping him.
[I hope voters prove me wrong on both counts]
'Let me be (very) clear about this' - a phrase loved and much used by politicians which guarantees that what follows comprises lies, dissembling, waffle and provides anything but clarity.
I have a horrible feeling tomorrow nights debate is going to make for extremely uncomfortable viewing. Grandad is absolultely hopeless at anything unscripted – he just hasn’t got the ability to think on his feet – and when he starts realising this he then defaults to his peavish Steptoe look and gets really flusted and shouty.
Evidence is that this is the complete opposite to reality. Corbyn is much much better unscripted. Boris is the loser here - see his infamous buses model painting debacle, his recent relating to 'regular' people clip, his ad-hoc drop-ins to the floodlands.
Endless fails on the campaign trail.
He couldn't blag scraps in a chippy.
Corbyn is genuine, thoughtful and well mannered. The only thing he can't do is be a grinning shoutbox which Boris is pretty good at, and people don't always examine the contents of shoutbox.
You may think that of him but the reality is then Prince Andrew presently has a higher approval rating than Grandad.
All evidence points to your opinion of him not being one that’s widely shared.
A lot of people (like me) who are planning to vote labour (having always voted labour) aren’t doing it with much enthusiasm, for a lot of different reasons
He hasn’t got a cat in hella chance of getting a majority. He never did. So with him, clueless and totally ineffectual at the helm, the best we can hope for is damage limitation and no overall Tory majority.
That’s ambition, eh? The politics of hope 🙄
The problem is even if Boris wins there will still be about 50% of the electorate totally alienated AND IMHO Johnson will only alienate most of them further
The same would still be true if Labour won.
That’s what happens when both parties diverge away from the centre - you alienate more people and make a few people happier.
At the risk of unleashing the usual vitriol heaped on the lefties least favourite primary school teacher, she summed up where the two main parties are pretty accurately in her CBI conference speech today
‘With the Tory party in the pocket of Farage and labour stuck in the 1970’s...’
Indeed.
Grandad delivered his speech with his usual enthusiastic vim and vigour
Like a bored middle manager at a photocopier convention telling disinterested telesales staff about his companies latest developments in toner cartridges
Boris was just his usual wiffle-waffle-piffle-paffle
Tories cancelling the corporation tax cut to fund the NHS ... But but but lowering the tax rate increases the tax take?
Laugher curve.
‘With the Tory party in the pocket of Farage and labour stuck in the 1970’s…’
Ooof. What was on offer? Business rates turned off. That had been done by the Tories for quite a few years previously.
Did they read the Tory manifesto and make a cordial out of it?
Anything else? Or are you here to impart reviews on the speech cadence of all leaders?
The 1970s thing not accurate either as the Tories are stuck in the 1870s and broadband wasn't around in the 1970s.