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Well done to England. Deserved it, easily the best of the 6 teams
It's been a while, I remember expecting to win a slam every time! Well done England
100% lineout today. Didn't see the French stats, bud I'd say lineout & turnovers cost them today. There's some big units in that team though 😯
Their lack of pace in defence was obvious again too.
Didn't see the French stats, bud I'd say lineout & turnovers cost them today.
Not sure any Frenchman would want to see their line-out stats - they gave away at least three in good attacking positions (that I can remember anyway). Kruis was England's chief of thief in that matter. France also turned over possession - but England were fierce when they didn't have the ball. Something which frustrated me about Ireland today (and where I think we've missed SOB and POM a lot in this 6N - we've got some great carriers - CJ and JH but don't seem to be able to steal it as well as previously) - they seemed happy to let Scotland recycle (perhaps that was the gameplan, I dunno...) whereas England competed like I think a team should and it paid back in spades. Lost count of how much ball they nicked back off France.
Agreed, DaiD, Hartley seems to have turned a corner. Good for him.
See also Danny Care, who's clearly dealt with whatever demons were troubling him.
Yeah, they are getting better at not competing unnecessarilly, but when it's on they go in hard. Robshaw immense again.
Phew...that felt like a bloody long 80 minutes.
Glad we did it in the end. France played pretty well today though, Sod's law it was the game we played them! Defence was good but they were unable to hold into possession but they still managed to cut us apart fairly regularly.
And today's prize for worst pass goes to Brown as well - clean through in the first half, and threw it to ......... A huge openspace!
Yellow right for Sexton incident but he made the most of it. No place for that in rugby.
Am beginning to see what others have suggested about Brown.....
Owens the best ref by miles
Not a vintage grand slam perhaps but, as Brian Moore pointed out, "If it's such an easy grand slam why didn't someone else do it?"
Jones has created something to build on. It exposes the folly of appointing a totally unqualified numpty like Lancaster.
Decided to stay up and watch it despite only getting in from Gatwick at midnight. Would have been a mare if we had lost it!!
But well done boys led by a magnificent second row effort - men of the match and saved our bacon on several occasions. Brilliant.....bloody brilliant and so much more to come by the looks of things.
"Big" Andy Goode knocking it on the head again after next week. Proof that in an age of gym monkeys,the top two inches can still get you pretty far.
It exposes the folly of appointing a totally unqualified numpty like Lancaster.
Meh. At the time he seemed to be the right choice, evidently didn't have the Midas touch and was rightly booted out after the WC debacle, but I think he did at least move the team towards the right direction. Fact is there are very few coaches of the quality of Gatland and perhaps Jones out there.
Wales & Ireland starting to play more, Scotland improving and France too.
You think? I see Wales as peaking last year/year before and are now at the top of the same gentle slope that Ireland are further down.
Scotland are definitely improving which I think is great and France .... well it just depends which side of the bed they get out on.
I see Wales as peaking last year/year before and are now at the top of the same gentle slope that Ireland are further down.
Not sure I agree the Wales on a downward slope, the players are still young the likes of Gethin and Adam have been replaced. AWJ and Roberts are still only 30, should have a few more years in them. The problem is the team has stagnated rather than gone backwards, the coaches seem to have no new ideas.
Wales clearly still have it in them. They played appalling against this year's grand slam winners for 3/4 of a game and still came within millimetres of winning. Sure, they don't seem to deal with SH teams well, but neither does any other NH team except bizarrely France against the ABs a few times. Even with my most one-eyed of English hats on I can't say that I ever expect to win against SH teams, even at Twickers, I don't think there's a NH team that realistically could.
Now whether that's down to the quality of the coaching, or the quality of the players they have at their disposal is a question to which I dont think is an easy answer. Gatland has been an excellent coach of an excellent side, but I don't think Wales have ever really been in a position to consistently expect to win against SH sides. Don't think there's an answer to that.
Sure, they don't seem to deal with SH teams well
No, but the prevalence of extremely narrow losses is a bit of a conundrum, isn't it?
Wales are just missing a few key things to kick on. A couple of hard carrying forwards, a middle lineout lock and a centre who can pass. Without the carriers inbthe pack we have to play Roberts even then if Jiffy Junior could pass we'd be laughing. I would be intrested to see how Anscombe could go at 15 because he gave us another passing option out wider yesterday but is his defence up to the job? If he came good we could play North on one wing and have 1/2p or Williams on the other. I am not sure Anscombe is good enough though. Also who do we drop to put Moriarty in the back row, he would give us go forward. As for an athletic middle lineout jumper well there are none. Can we have Lawes if you lot dont want him?
Pretty much agree a_a.
Hard carrying forwards... Moriarty on form for Lydiate (?), Warbs if he could find form, Evans carried well as did Owens plus AWJ (after a long rest)? Not going to set the world alight but passable when you add in NotToby's quick feet. That elusive other lock would help no end though in terms of carrying as well as the lineout. It'll be even worse if and when AWJ retires.
There were rumours Roberts might retire from the international game soon but I'm not sure how they started. Foxy is more than capable of passing well but he needs regular rugby. The move back to the Scarlets to partner Scott Williams should help his game and form. Not sure the two of them are an international pairing as they are a bit too similar but it could be much worse.
I've been thinking for a while now that 1/2p and North on the wings with Williams at 15 could be the way forward. Williams has played very well and looked every bit as solid as 1/2p defensively despite the lack of game time through injury but gets more involved when attacking. If 1/2p had some more freedom I feel he could get back to what he does (did) well with fast, clever lines and might even keep him out of harms way for a bit!
Webb and Biggar are a complementary pair since Webb takes the ball towards the defence more, drawing attackers in and creating space whereas Davies is more of a compliment to someone like Priestland who himself plays flatter instead. Davies and Biggar together wasn't a good combination for a flowing back line and relied even more heavily on Roberts carries (or Davies's breaks I suppose) when they inevitably end up a touch deep and static
My other feeling is that the coaching set up brings on the forwards pretty well but we're not seeing the same kind of development in the backs. Most of that seems to come from the clubs so I don't know if swapping out Howley or giving him some support (Jones?) is an answer or if it is just a case of not having the raw talent to mold?
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Here's the future!
anagallis_arvensis - MemberWales are just missing a few key things to kick on
But that's the problem isn't it? You don't have enough depth to solve those problems. Wales have done fantastically well under Gatland but I don't know if you can get much better.
The fact that Launcbury and Lawes can't get into the starting XV shows England's depth. Once Jones figures out who some of the better uncapped players are England will surely go from strength to strength.
Once Jones figures out who some of the better uncapped players are England will surely go from strength to strength
Surely!!
Having lots of good players wont help if they cannot unearth a few really world class players.
Too many to choose from makes it harder to identify the cream sometimes.
How big a squad will we take to Aus this summer? 3 tests plus midweek games too. For once, I can watch the games at a sensible time in Japan, where I seem to spend half my life!!
Having lots of good players wont help if they cannot unearth a few really world class players.
True but it's a better starting point having lots than not enough....
Try the Welsh U21 squad - they did rather well didn't they? 😉
Try the Welsh U21 squad - they did rather well didn't they?
They did indeed. I read a piece on the [url= http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/what-became-extraordinary-2008-wales-11004074 ]The Stellar Wales U20 Team of 2008[/url] and where-are-they now follow up.
Leigh Halfpenny, Jonathan Davies, Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb, Justin Tipuric, Josh Turnbull, Sam Warburton, Ryan Bevington ,Scott Andrews, and Dan Evans have all been capped at senior level. Interestingly, Warburton was at 8 and Tips at 6 with a lad called Dan Franks keeping both of them out of the 7 jersey but his career stalled due to injuries and he's now an optician.
Having lots of good players wont help if they cannot unearth a few really world class players.
This has been England's problem ever since 2003 having Wilko et al. Occasionally those very good players all click for 80 minutes and give someone like the ABs a bloody nose, but usually they achieve considerably less. Great that we won the slam this time, and Brian Moore is quite correct in suggesting that if it was that easy, why didn't someone else win it. However, the SH teams must be wondering whether they should even bother with the tours after seeing most of the 6N this year - they'd be better served beating Fiji and Samoa to a pulp and avoiding jetlag!
This has been England's problem ever since 2003
Well, to be fair, they did make the 2007 RWC Final and have won more 6N games than anyone else. I think the problem is that they've had very poor coaching/selecting from the likes of Robinson, Johnson and Lancaster.
Most world class players don't appear fully formed (although Itoje might possibly prove to be an exception) - rather they are introduced at the right time to the highest level and begin to excel as they find their feet and receive the correct coaching. Ma'a Nonu is a good example.
Ford, Joseph, Daly, Watson, Tuilagi, Kruis, Itoje, Launchbury, Vunipola, Clifford, Underhill and Hughes all have massive potential and some of them might become world-class if we're lucky.
Unlikely to just "unearth" world class players.
Top teams find really good ones and develop them into World class. There's obviously a couple of exceptions, thinking wingers like Savea , but in most positions the WC ones are the ones who've learnt to make the right decisions at the top level.
It's about making players like Watson, Nowell, Itoje, Kruis, Vunipola, into players that are "50 caps better" in a few years time, rather than just having more caps.
DanW - Member
I'd forgotten those two. The team could do with a tour like Japan over the Summer really to take the pressure of the big names due for a rest and give the young guns a chance. I guess the IRB rankings factor in to selecting games against the major SH sides and also TV interest too??? Had a look back at the 2013 tour and Baldwin was a debutant, Liam Williams a fresh faced 22 year old with 3 caps and a 23 year old Biggar had a mere 16 caps to be the second most capped in the squad after Bradley Davies.POSTED 4 DAYS AGO # REPORT-POST
Going back a bit, but Japan have got Scotland.
Two wins and they'll likely make the top 8 of the world rankings. One apiece and they might still do enough to make it depending on other results. That's a lot more appealing for them than taking a beating from Wales. *
If that happens, my money would be on them making the pool stage draw the next day... 😉
*(even if they won last time 😉 )
England won the u20 world up in 2013, 2014 and were beaten finalists in 2015, 2011, 2009 and 2008. George Ford was player of the tournament in 2011.
E Jones was on the radio last night talking about how he wants to be closer to the Premiership clubs with things like nutrition, training etc, I wonder how long that will last as the clubs seem to have their own agenda.
As for making players world class if they aren't born with it, then you don't make them. IMO, the combination of skill, intelligence and having the right physique and stamina cannot be created. Look at Haskel built like a brick outhouse with limited ball handling skills and as thick as a brick. You could train him for ever and he will never be world class. Players can be very good but not world class.
That is why the true world class players are so special.
Also Jones was saying that the basic skills have to improve and that has to start early. That is why the AB's are so good everyone is comfortable with the ball in hand.
Also Jones was saying that the basic skills have to improve and that has to start early. That is why the AB's are so good everyone is comfortable with the ball in hand.
I had the honour (kind of, we got royally smashed) of playing an Aussie RL team which was over touring. You could tell the kids that had grown up with a Steeden in their hands as their skills and ability to read the game were just that much better than anyone else.
If you can combine this with nutrition / size / S & C then you can completely see where Eddie Jones is coming from, and where NZ / Aus / SA currently are.
Develop them young, keep them in the game, encourage the EPDG's to bring them on and give them decent competitive games like the U18 / U20 6 nations to keep progressing. He's got the right idea.
As for making players world class if they aren't born with it, then you don't make them. IMO, the combination of skill, intelligence and having the right physique and stamina cannot be created.
Sure, they have to be born with something but you still have to coach most potentially World-class players for them to achieve that level.
Physique can be changed to a fair degree and stamina can be created. Whilst natural ability can't be coached - skills can and decision making learned with experience.
I guess my point is that most players born with a genius level of rugby ability have to have it developed by some good coaching somewhere along the line.
Develop them young, keep them in the game, encourage the EPDG's to bring them on and give them decent competitive games like the U18 / U20 6 nations to keep progressing. He's got the right idea.
England have consistently outperformed,by some distance, australia and SA , who are more old fashioned in their youth system, at u20 world cup, only NZ has a better record. Too much is being read into one bad World Cup for the Northern Hemisphere.
Too much is being read into one bad World Cup for the Northern Hemisphere.
Not really, for the grace of 1 performance it would have been Wales getting the knife from the media etc, and if that had happened I reckon Gats would have been shown the door.
England have some world class players, they have a huge (compared to the other home nations) pool of clubs bringing on youngsters, and it seems finally they've got someone to pull it all together.
Unfortunately (as a Welsh fan) I think they've got a decent future.
I guess my point is that most players born with a genius level of rugby ability have to have it developed by some good coaching somewhere along the line.
Yes, like me for example. I've got world class talent, just never played the game much 😉
Ironically enough one the major architects of getting the new English talent into the national team was the ex-coach. He is good at spotting talent, just not good enough in translating that into performances - especially given the assistance from the premier league teams
Too much is being read into one bad World Cup for the Northern Hemisphere
Not really - it's not just one poor world cup. The NH has only won one and has hardly been a strong contender despite France getting a few good results and honourable mention to Wales in 2011/England 2007. Add that to the completely miserable records of the 6N sides against the SH over the last 15 years and it's dismal reading.
I think one reason England have done well at Junior RWCs is that they concentrate on power/set piece from an earlier age which gives an advantage at younger levels. Although I think we have enough talent coming through to win the RWC again if Jones can harness it.
Although I think we have enough talent coming through to win the RWC again if Jones can harness it.
As identified earlier, we have had that kind of talent coming through for years, the problem is using it rather than the clubs buying in springboks at the end of their shelf life or fijians. As an example, George Smith walks into wasps at 35 years old and is immediately the stand out 7 in the english league. It's shameful really.
Lancaster, for all of his ability at spotting talent did not have the courage to employ it. He was easily lead and frightened of poor results. EJ is a breath of fresh air in many ways, he doesn't yield and he doesn't apologise for the sake of it. He speaks plainly and I'm chuffed we have him.
The home nations where far off the pace in the RWC and we should have had a home hemisphere advantage. 4 years ago France lost the final by just a point and Wales where imo the best side, we' e collectively lost a lot of ground
Great that we won the slam this time, and Brian Moore is quite correct in suggesting that if it was that easy, why didn't someone else win it.
Because thevpther teamscwere playing shit? England have been close a lot in recent years. Wales and Ireland have clear gone backwards this season and France are shit, Scotland ate improving but not great and Italy are shite. It remains to be seen if England have made much progress or not, they still came pretty closecto bliwing v Wales.
England have some world class players
Discussed after the WC and before the 6N already buuuuttt.... go on then, who are they 🙂 England have a great pair of locks but it is too early to be calling either world class. I normally can't stand Keith Wood but for me, he nailed England this 6N: Pragmatic. Credit to EJ for putting out the best [i]team[/i] but I'm not seeing world class individuals... yet
England have been close a lot in recent years. Wales and Ireland have clear gone backwards this season and France are shit, Scotland ate improving but not great and Italy are shite.
As further demonstrated by the WC, of course.
Well lets be blunt Wales were pretty lucky to beat England in the world cup!
Well lets be blunt Wales were pretty lucky to beat England in the world cup!
I don't agree. I think Wales never gave up and played with terrific conviction even when trailing by a substantial margin late in the game.
Although depleted by injury with players playing out of position they came back and won it. One of the finest performances in adversity I can recall seeing - despite being an England fan.
England certainly are not world class players ATM and yet how often did individuals match/beat world class players this season (and for the haterz at #s 2, 12, 15, and even the plodders at 6&7)? Surpisingly often....and as a team.......
Personally I think England have played better and not won a Grand Slam and whilst we've been worthy champions the Southern Hemisphere teams won't be too worried. It will be interesting to see how the summer tour goes, we could well go 0-3
Personally I'd say that Hartley is world class. Tuilagi when fit is too. Watson and Billy V have the potential as does Itoje.
Reckon Wales probably have more though. Hovis, Toby, AWJ, North, Roberts 1/2p when fit. Samson Lee is probably about as strong a tighthead as anyone already too!
I'm feeling reasonably positive about the future for England....it'd be nice to see Wales get there full first XV all fit together too in time for the Autumn to see if we can get some regular NH wins over the SH. Ireland are obviously very depleted currently but have some incredibly talented players too.
Personally I'd say that Hartley is world class
Under what definition of the word?
Tuilagi when fit is too. Watson and Billy V have the potential as does Itoje.
I'd keep Tuilagi in the potential list too.
Hovis, Toby, AWJ, North, Roberts 1/2p
[b]Not [/b]Toby to racist pig!!, Roberts and maybe Warburton when fit and on form which isnt often the others are not world class.
Hartley world class, I think you may be having an "episode" 😉
If you put england up against the AB's 15 against 15 who would get into the AB team? You can say the same for Wales and maybe 2 would get in.
You can have a team of very good players, motivated, led well and with a game plan and win the World Cup.
In 2003, who in that side was truly world class? I would say two players I am sure most people would say 4 or 5.
You can say the same for Wales and maybe 2 would get in.
😆 I can't think of one.
England may not have any "world class" players (whatever the hell that means!) but that's fine, they don't need any for another 3 and a bit years.
Of course you can't, and would be amazed if you could 😆
2003? A lot of that squad would have been nailed on for a world XV - Johnson, Wilkinson, Robinson and Hill for me. Pretty much every player would have been mentioned in the selection meeting. Vickery, Woodman, Thomson all had a good shout, Greenwood too. Back/Smith/McCaw would have been a long conversation back then.
In 2003, who in that side was truly world class?
Lewsey, Robinson, Greenwood, Wilkinson, Thompson, Vickery, Johnson, Hill, Back, Dallaglio
paulosoxo - member[ picture of curly-haired baby-faced rugby player ]
Here's the future!
I'm also a fan on Launchbury but I would not put him ahead of Itoje and Kruis just now.
You can say the same for Wales and maybe 2 would get in.I can't think of one.
Nor me. Not Toby and North wouldnt look out of place I dont think but I doubt they would get in the team.
Perhaps with Nonu gone and with SBW playing 7's, there may be a [i]slim[/i] chance of Roberts getting in if he's better than Ngatai? (who looks pretty ****ing good to me though!)
True. Roberts is under rated IMO. As good as anyone defensively and if partnered with a better footballer at 10 and 13 very useful in attack. Works much better with Priestland than Biggar.
Hartley......how is he not world class? Best lineout throw in the world bar none, excellent scrummager at international level, and aggressive around the breakdown. Fair enough he's not got great hands/ball carrying ability.....still reckon that he's world class-not saying that he's the out and out best, but he's world class imo.
North would start in my world XV on current form.
Anyone with a Lions XV prediction then? 😀
Hartley......how is he not world class?
Off the top of my head
Dane Coles
That Aussie bloke
DuPlessis
Some other South Africans.
Guirado
North would start in my world XV on current form.
How? he doesn't get in ahead of Milner Skudder or Savea, and possibly a few others.
wrecker - MemberPerhaps with Nonu gone
Gone? He's still playing. At Toulon.
I didn't realise leaving to play in France rendered you ineligble for World XV selection - or is it administered by the RFU? 😉
I thought we were talking about the ABs?
If you put england up against the AB's 15 against 15 who would get into the AB team? You can say the same for Wales and maybe 2 would get in.
I thought we were talking about the ABs?
Well YOU were. I was talking about a World XV.
😳
Off the top of my head
Dane Coles
That Aussie bloke
DuPlessis
Some other South Africans.
Guirado
Ledesma
Moore
Mealamu
Hartley is a very solid international but lets not forget the majority of England fans didn't want him anywhere near the RWC squad. How times change 😉 Hartley can be considered World Class when he has sidestepped and outsprinted some of the best backs in the world, offloaded like SBW and run lines like AAC 🙂
Hartley can be considered World Class when he has sidestepped and outsprinted some of the best backs in the world, offloaded like SBW and run lines like AAC
Hardly! He's a hooker.
Your hooker needs to be good at scrummaging, throwing in and hooking (sometimes). It's also useful if he's a bit nasty too.
Tom Youngs is good at all those fancy things - because he used to be a centre. Unfortunately he's a crap hooker. This didn't stop Lancaster picking him for the RWC and leaving out Hartley because he was going to miss the first game against those masters of the set piece - Fiji.
lets not forget the majority of England fans didn't want him anywhere near the RWC squad
Most England fans with half a brain didn't want their best hooker left out. He could easily have been in the squad. Wales and Aus only took 2 hookers.
Look what happened to the English scrum with Youngs hooking.....
lets not forget the majority of England fans didn't want him anywhere near the RWC squad
I didn't (and still don't) want Tom Youngs anywhere near the team.
Hardly! He's a hooker.Your hooker needs to be good at scrummaging, throwing in and hooking (sometimes). It's also useful if he's a bit nasty too.
That's the bare minimum 😉 See examples of that and more (Moore? 🙂 ) listed above.
I didn't (and still don't) want Tom Youngs anywhere near the team.
Is that the England team or the World XV? 😆
Mate, I wouldn't want him at Bristol!
That's the bare minimum
I agree but he's a fearsome competitor too.
He's certainly in pole position for the Lions at any rate even if there are better hookers elsewhere.
😆Mate, I wouldn't want him at Bristol!
Not even at centre??
(It's where he seems to spend most of his time anyway.)
He's certainly in pole position for the Lions at any rate even if there are better hookers elsewhere.
Couldnt argue with that. I expect he will get banned again though!
Not even at centre??
I think we'll be ok thanks.....
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Are you seriously saying that the French 2 is better than Hartley?!!!!
Better in open play undoubtedly, but much worse at the actual bits that the hooker has to specifically do ie scrummage and throw!!!! Undoubtedly Coles and the two saffas are better than Dylan, I agree, but doesnt being favourite for the Lion's and up there in the top handful of hookers make him world class?!
Anyway, did anyone see Stephen Jones current Lions team tucked away in the corner of the Sunday Times? Think it had 10 Welshmen in it. Oh, and Hibbard at 2, but he isn't actually playing international rugby at present so doesn't count in the 10 😆
Lions
15 Halfpenny if unbroken/Hogg.
14 North.
13 Henshaw/recently unbroken Tuilangi.
12 Dr Chin.
11 Watson (or North,whatever side they play)
10 Irish Faker/Russell.
9 Recently unbroken Welshman/Murray
1 Fatter VP.
2 Hartley/George
3 Nel.
4 Kruis.
5 Davies.
6 Itoje.
7 Sam/C.J Stander.
8 Taller VP.
Guirado is better than Hartley yes. You do realise lineouts and scrums ate not all down to one player dont you?
Lions
15 Halfpenny if unbroken/Hogg.
14 North.
13 Henshaw/recently unbroken Tuilangi.
12 Dr Chin.
11 Watson (or North,whatever side they play)
10 Irish Faker/Russell.
9 Recently unbroken Welshman/Murray
1 Fatter VP.
2 Hartley/George
3 Nel.
4 Kruis.
5 Davies.
6 Itoje.
7 Sam/C.J Stander.
8 Taller VP.
Hogg would be nailed on for me. Davies is pretty average. I'd put Itoje at 5, Talupe Faletau at 8, I think he's a better all round player than Vunipola. Big hard carrying Islanders wontvworry NZ. Or maybe have Talupe at 6. Sam has been shit all season so its Stander at 7. AWJ and Sam would make the team if they were playing well but they havent been.
Good point about Faletau, but I wanted Itoje to have the smarts,and I think they would be a bit similar,taller VP has the job of fixing defenders. I got my Welsh locks mixed up,it was AWJ I wanted,although I wouldn't complain if it was the younger Gray.