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Agreed, Peel was a great *proper* 9
My instinct with comments like Gatland suggesting injury subs only was to wholeheartedly agree... but thinking about it more it just makes it more likely that the SH teams would put a cricket score on us!
The SH teams don't struggle to score tries and the Rugby Championship/ Super [s]15[/s] 18/ etc produces some very exciting rugby. When I think about it more, I don't see why the rules should be changed just because the NH is stuck in a stodgy patch of boring rugby.
In 2011 I felt Wales had a realistic shot at winning the RWC. Maybe that's one eyed but they were playing some great rugby. Sure a lot of the tries below had some ropey tackling from smaller Nations but you also have North on form running strong, decent lines at speed, 1/2p with blistering pace, runners committing the tackler, offloading, JD2's acceleration over 10m making space, Priestland playing flat and timing passes to perfection and even Gethin throwing some dummies and kicking ahead for a try 🙂
It is possible, but it requires selection of form players, occasional risk and confidence. Look at Roberts playing in his early days at Cardiff, 1/2p's blistering breaks as he broke on to the scene, JD2 cutting up defences at the Scarlets, North's form in the early big games etc... these are the same players in the current squad... perhaps it is inevitable that the better international players eventually lose form or their initial impact (2011 was 5 years ago after all) and the smaller talent pool works against Wales but I wonder if they have to take some chances on some of the emerging guys despite the young avergae age in the squad. In fairness the coaching setup seem to have done well with the likes of Baldwin (great RWC) and Jarvis (top carrries and offloads in the last match!) in the forwards but there isn't the same sort of development going on in the backs IMO. I also agree with you a_a about the backs doing a lot of the forwards roles in open play leaving no space for the footballers in the current setup. I don't know what the answer is but I'm not sure I fancy rule changes to make an exciting 6N but lead to an even greater humping when we meet the SH sides.
I would rather watch the 6 nations than the Rugby Championship.
I would rather watch the 6 nations than the Rugby Championship.
And you still expect to be taken seriously by the rugby gods? How dare you? 😛
I would rather watch the 6 nations than the Rugby Championship
So would I but that's because I'm English, living in Scotland with a few Welsh and Irish friends and I was brought up in Edinburgh going to Murrayfield for every match.
For a neutral - the RC wins hands down. The rugby is better.
And half of the RC games are on at dawn....
In other recent news.... Brazil beat the USA. The SH dominance continues
The rugby is better.
It's different - not sure it is better for the old fashioned spectator.
not sure it is better for the old fashioned spectator.
IF you mean someone who doesn't want to be entertained and is happy to watch two ****less sides slugging it out - then you're probably right. 😉
The RC has the top four sides from the RWC and they all play a more attacking brand of rugby than the 6N sides currently do. You can admire turgid rugby if it's successful but not if it isn't.
While the 6N is a magnificent tournament in its own right, it's made by the rivalries, the locations and the fans rather than the quality of the rugby.
Even the fanatstic "super saturday" of last season only came about because of the need to chase points difference and the fact that the three best sides were playing the three weakest (apologies to the Jocks). We wouldn't have had rugby like that if the winner of any of the games had been in doubt.
Time for edit nb. Please edit, duckers will go batshit if you don't.
Please edit, duckers will go batshit if you don't.
Oh dear - too late! 😆
You don't need to edit, as was previously remarked on the thread STW had on it, people who refer to other people by outdated and mildly racist terms such as "Micks" and "Paddys" or "Jocks" (and this threads favourite, "Sweaties" tend to say so much more about themselves than any eloquent reply. It was also noted on that thread that the person using the terms then had some ground to make up in any subsequent conversation to prove they weren't really an a-hole. It isn't the first time on the rugby thread this has reared its head. Aimed at the Scottish, Irish and Welsh every year...Seems to always come from the same teams supporters as well.
You forgot about the Taffs!
Anyway, no offence meant - apologies to all our noble Scottish contributors.
Besides, I've been called a F.E.B. so often I take it as a term of endearment. 😉
Just going back to the turgid rugby issue for a second..
The refs are allowing pretty blatant sealing off at rucks this season. The best teams will have 3 or 4 players immediately securing their attacking ball. Of course, this has a couple of immediate effects - the defence don't bother contesting because they are likely to be penalised so instead spread out in defence; the attack now takes longer because there simply is no point running quick ball into an organised defence. If the refs stopped every single team cheating at the ruck then the speed of recycling would quicken and defences might open. It might also allow more interesting players like Tipuric back into the game. Simply make playets support their own body weight or penalise them.
Again with the scrums - yes, they are complicated but often the ref doesn't help himself. I saw a team penalised for collapsing the scrum (Pro12 maybe?) a couple of weeks ago. The reason they collapsed was that the dominant team's 6 was boring in on the 'collapsing' 3. None of the officials saw fit to notice this. Or the ref who was setting the scrum really slowly and gave a free kick for an early engage. As the commentator pointed out - the teams themselves had achieved exactly what he was aiming for, a stable scrum, but then the ref had to slow the game a bit more.
The existing rules cover everything they need to. There really is no need to constantly amend, reinforce or whatever. Just get the refs to apply the rules properly and perhaps we can enjoy some proper rugby.
Sorry for the long post!
Just going back to the turgid rugby issue for a second..
😀
I agree that the quality of the 6N has been pretty pure - more so when watching the games where you are neutral. I also do think the time of year doesn't help - the AP tends to be far more exciting in the early and late months of the season on the harder pitches.
One thing that is noticeable about NH rugby is that the basics are lacking somewhat - the quality of passing, catching, using space etc are poor. A prime example of poor passing is Youngs flinging the ball at people's heads or feet. The English are particularly bad at passing the ball to stationary players rather than to those running at pace. There is a massive emphasis on weights too - TJ Ione remarked in an interview that he was surprised at the time spent on weights when he moved to the Sharks. This is evident when watching how happy the SH forwards are with ball in hand - I remember seeing Attwood ending up in space with a look of terror on his face! The backs in the SH seem largely interchangeable too - Beale seems to play pretty well in most positions as do others. Things are much more rigid in the NH, with players concentrating on a single position.
Hopefully things will spark into life over the next few games - although I still believe that Wales will beat England next weekend. If by some miracle we do win it, I'll look forward to hearing about how it was a poor championship and therefore the win can be derided compared to all but one since 2003!
I'm going to harp on this a bit more because I'm in the fifth day of food poisoning and am intensely bored. I've just watched the Blues v Ulster game. Ulster were chasing the game by a few points with about 3 minutes to go. They tackled a Blues player and started driving over him. Tackled player lying on the pitch had placed ball on the wrong side of him so tried picking it up and moving it to the correct side, pushing it forward in the process. The ref sees it, gives a scrum advantage, Ulster drive over, secure ball, kick it upfield, advantage over. The Blues scored from the return play, taking both the win and the losing bonus point away from Ulster.
So, how incompetent does a ref have to be not to understand one of the most basic rules of rugby? Players on the ground cannot play the ball. It should have been a penalty to Ulster, not a scrum.
As I say, utterly basic stuff. So is the ref really that crap at his job? (I'd be sacked if I made as many mistakes in a shift as an elite referee!) Is he biased? Is there an agenda?
Genuine questions because I'm dumfounded by the terrible standard of refereeing at the top level.
😯 hasn't that been the perennial hunting ground of flankers since the start of Rugby - dancing along the thin line at the breakdown?If the refs stopped every single team cheating at the ruck
Can someone explain to me what this turgid rugby is please - I thought it was when the weather was interesting (aka dreek, sleeting, 'proper').
As to watching teams I have little interest in (or SH rugby) it's a bit like a w@*k isn't it.
Sort of good for your health but not as empassioned and satisfying as a [s]seeing to[/s]6N or a Premier/Pro12 match?
With what passes for an defensive threat at the ball these days, teams have little choice but to seal off. Defenders are just clamping onto attackers arm, leg, body, whatever and getting pens for it. they are never supporting their weight either. Goodes recent success is a good example and its kvesic ever does although he's not the only one. It's a complete shambles.
As to watching teams I have little interest in (or SH rugby) it's a bit like a w@*k isn't it.
Sort of good for your health but not as empassioned and satisfying as a seeing to6N or a Premier/Pro12 match?
Whilst it's an excellent analogy my point is that SOMEONE should be watching the SH rugby - namely coaches of NH teams.
It's all very well winning a forward battle 9-3 on a wet night at Welford road but the "win at all costs" mentality in the AP and Top14 is carried over into the 6N.
A blind man watching the RWC could see that the SH sides were way ahead of the NH because they played more dynamic rugby and duly filled the top 4 places. Most of those players play in Super Rugby so that's where to start looking.
Interesting piece comparing Super Rugby to the 6N:
[url= http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion/77423260/super-rugby-sizzles-while-six-nations-fizzles ]stuff.co.nz[/url]
Why? You cannot play rugby like they do in the S15 on a wet night at welford rd. Nobody can. Summer league please.
Super rugby is absolutely and complete incomparable with the 6N. They are so different in almost every way, it takes a special kind of numbskull to even attempt.
Aren't you supposed to be on the naughty step? 😉
So I would suggest the only difference in the stats is around kicking game. Which if done tactically well I find exciting (particularly in poor weather) and sets up some interesting battles (particularly when Ireland destroyed England last year with their high kicks) and set-pieces.
6N SR
Metres run 699.00 858.89
Kicks 63.78 38.11
Passes 279.33 273.44
Runs 232.78 214.78
Clean breaks 10.22 16.89
Offloads 11.11 20.67
Tackles made 252.89 211.56
I take the point that the NH needs to up their ball handling skills and forward attacking vision. I think they also need to get old school in their set pieces around line outs and scrummaging.
We all have sex-wees when we see an offload on a tackle before a ruck forms. I'd like to see more of this and less bish bash bosh. And less of those lovely 5-pass/dummy-run/7-player moves that Ireland do without any yardage gain...even though they look pretty.
It wasn't that long ago that both Irish and French backs came on the ball at speed from deep in wonderful flowing moves. So much better watch that bish, bash, bosh
As a Pom (ouch) watching English receivers taking the ball almost stationary has always been depressing in contrast. And then the bloody rolling bore, bring back collapsing to stop the blatant obstruction..
Another thing; sort the ****ing rush defense out! They are all offside all the time and it's starving the game of space.
The refs are allowing pretty blatant sealing off at rucks this season. The best teams will have 3 or 4 players immediately securing their attacking ball.
I think this is an attempt to allow faster, more flowing, attacking rugby rather than ping every marginal technical infringement. Watch the SH sides and they seal off to secure quick ball and generally play a higher tempo game whereas we seem to kinda seal off, have a bit of a tussle to make absolutely certain of secure ball, look around a bit and then amble in to the next predictable bosh. The rules are the same but the approaches are different. Granted weather doesn't help but the best teams play deep in the opponents half (good kicking game) where you can mount pressure both in attack and defence and be a little more ambitious in attack (unless playing Scotland and they'll intercept 5.67* tries on average per game from their own half 🙂
*possibly an underestimate
wrecker - MemberWhy? You cannot play rugby like they do in the S15 on a wet night at welford rd. Nobody can. Summer league please.
Super rugby is absolutely and complete incomparable with the 6N. They are so different in almost every way, it takes a special kind of numbskull to even attempt.
Aren't you supposed to be on the naughty step?
I agree but it's not just the pitches and the weather is it? They do have rain in NZ - lots of it. Surely it's the mindset? The Kiwis have such superb basic skills that anything seems possible to them whereas in the NH we lack so many basic skills that most things seem impossible.
(I'll go back to the naughty step now. 😥 )
To understand the difference between NH rugby and NZ compare and contrast Jerome Kaino with Lydiate or Robshaw.
between NH rugby and NZ compare and contrast Jerome Kaino with Lydiate or Robshaw.
Or Coles to any of the 6N hookers....
The only 6N side that's been able to match the SH in the professional era was England in 2002-2003.
The only 6N side that can match them in the forseeable future is also England - if they can combine massive power up front with even a touch of guile out wide then it's possible.
The romantic ideal that "anything could happen when you play France" seems to have been replaced by "they're totally sh*t". That leaves the "White Auks" as the only NH team NZ are truly wary of - if the sleeping giant ever awakens enough to reach its potential.
The only 6N side that can match them in the forseeable future is also England
How have you arrived at this conclusion?
How have you arrived at this conclusion?
Head to head records. @aa you yourself say Wales cannot beat Australia and they are consistently the easiest sh side to beat (excluding Argentina). Ditto Ireland. France have proven capable in the past but are very far below the right level now.
England didn't match the SH in 2002-2003 we where the best side in the world and won the rwc as favourites.
Ditto Ireland.
Iteland have beaten Australia plenty of times. And South Africa.
Never beaten NZ...agonisingly close a few times but there you go.
Get your facts straight Jamba. (I realise this is a lot to ask.)
Head to head records.
But Wales regularly beat England. I think you should focus on a few years of Grand Slams before you aim for world domination!
compare and contrast Jerome Kaino with Lydiate or Robshaw.
Kaino was the best player in the best side in the world for two consecutive world cup victories. No surprise if others come up a little short...
But, Lydiate has certain strengths and skills that make him exceptional at what he does.
It didn't work out for him in France where they thought they were getting something different to what he is.
But, it does work at international level where the balance of the team allows him to flourish as probably the best defensive 6, in what is possibly the best defensive back row.
IMO, It makes for a really interesting match next week. Ireland didn't cope with BillyV - Wales could do.
The difference was highlighted by the France game. Lydiate had to drawca man and pass to create an overlap but he just paniced and lobbed over Davies head. Any all black forward would have done better..and i loves Lydiate
TBH, I've seen Jonathan Davies do similar and just fling the ball out of touch.
Tipuric passes well.
But that's not gonna be no1 priority in the beating England gameplan.
Horses for courses...
But that's not gonna be no1 priority in the beating England gameplan.
True enough but were discussing beating nz
That's quite a jump.
The gap between NZ and anyone else is bigger than the gap between NH and other SH.
But it's a good year to try. They'll be building to 2019 now so if there's ever a summer tour to try and go on as a fan...
anagallis_arvensis - MemberHow have you arrived at this conclusion?
It's a fair question.
Since England won the RWC it's probably fair to say that Wales and Ireland have been the best 6N teams. In the last 10-12 years Wales have won Grand Slams/titles and Ireland have won their Grand Slam and titles too. In that period England have a solitary title, nothwithstanding that they've actually won more 6N games (since its inception) than anyone else.
It's also fair to say that Wal/Ire have certainly punched either at or above their weight. They have maximised their resources and done pretty well. England have certainly punched below their weight for most of that period.
However, both Wales and Ireland have miserable records against the big 3 SH sides. Albeit Ireland have gone 4-4 against SA and 3-5-1 against Aus they're 0-11 against the ABs!. Factor in their terrible RWC performances too.
In 2001-03 England beat the SH teams nine times in a row under SCW (Gawd bless 'im). That wasn't just because they had great players - it was because they had good direction, planning, coaching, leadership and selection.
Recent England sides have had none of that. If England can maximise their huge resources they can compete with the SH.
Good breakdown of NH v SH at [url= http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/story/231093.html ]ESPN[/url] even if it's 18 months old.
Just for the record:
Post RWC 2003 Wales/Ireland vs Aus/SA/NZ
Won 10 Lost 58 Drawn 2
Wales: Won 3 Lost 38 Drawn 1
Ireland Won 7 Lost 20 Drawn 1
Ireland haven't actually done too badly with 4-4 against SA and 3-5-1 against Australia but it's still a poor return when you consider how Ireland have had a pretty decent side and both SA/Aus had periods when they were eminently beatable..
But, Lydiate has certain strengths and skills that make him exceptional at what he does.
That's the point though - players can excel in the 6N with a limited skillset (good player though Lydiate is).
All Blacks can generally do it all.
Just for the record:
Post RWC 2003 Wales/Ireland vs Aus/SA/NZ
Won 10 Lost 58 Drawn 2
Wales: Won 3 Lost 38 Drawn 1
Ireland Won 7 Lost 20 Drawn 1
Ireland haven't actually done too badly with 4-4 against SA and 3-5-1 against Australia but it's still a poor return when you consider how Ireland have had a pretty decent side and both SA/Aus had periods when they were eminently beatable..
All true but it doesnt expain why you think England can win a world cup. Scotland have a better record v aus and sa than wales in recent years. It proves very little.
We only play well against good opposition a_a.
Hence why we're rubbish in the 6N.
What about in the last world cup?
Jesus, if England fans think England have played well against SH teams in recent seasons, their expectations are lower than I thought.
All true but it doesnt expain why you think England can win a world cup.
No, it doesn't but my previous post does. 😉
What those results suggest is that Ireland and Wales, even when they're pretty good, can't match up to the SH.
England have been pish against the SH since 2003 with a combined record of 9-33. However, they have greater room for improvement IMHO.
So to summarise Wales and ireland have been trying their best but england havent really so could be much better?
So to summarise Wales and ireland have been trying their best but england havent really so could be much better?
Er no.
We had a purple patch that ended with us winning the World Cup. There was however no succession planning, so when many of those key players retired and Clive's ego got bigger RC we were left in a huge hole that we're still stuck in 13 years later. Whilst we were floundering, the like of Wales and Ireland have got better and appointed some good coaches and have overtaken us. I hope there is light at the end of the tunnel but after so many false dawns I think we'll be waiting sime more. Not not that but Wakes particularly have found a style of play that suits them and has been successful whereas we've faff about between up the jumper and trying to fling it about like last 6N.
So to summarise Wales and ireland have been trying their best but england havent really so could be much better?
Exactly. 😉
Since someone was asking... How much of a bell end is Castro?
anagallis_arvensis - Member
What about in the last world cup?
Going out in a narrow loss against one of the finalists in a game that many (after the game and none before) thought we might have won?
I'll take that. We could with a following wind, have made the final and been completely humiliated by NZ. Better we went out as we did really. Still miffed by the Aussie penalty and no Scotland penalty at the ruck from the restart though.
@dd Head to head records, Ireland ditto. Never made a rwc semi final ? Argentina seem to be their bogy side.
England certainly have been trying to make another final since the last appearance in 2007, we've not been good enough. Wales should have won in 2011, that was their big chance with an outstanding side and only having to play NZ in the final
6 weeks every year. Once every four years. It's ok. I get it jamba.
Going out in a narrow loss against one of the finalists in a game that many (after the game and none before) thought we might have won?
England went out because they lost to Wales at home a game they should have at least drawn. A draw would have gotvthem through!
I dont think I have ever seen anything as comical and juvenile as that Castro stamp. A premiership wendyballer would be proud of that as his contribution to the fray 😀
Wales should have won in 2011, that was their big chance with an outstanding side and only having to play NZ in the final
What is the term? Jambafact?
We lost to SA, France and Aus in that worldcup. We neat Samoa and Ireland. Could have beaten France and played NZ in the final a team we have not beaten since 1953. We played to our level and could have made the final, theres nothing to suggest we could have won it.
Or... Started too slowly against SA and didn't finish far off, were robbed of the chance to beat France, sulked about our dear leader and didn't show up against Aus and would have given NZ a run for their money in the final as the ABs were trying their best to lose to France! Too many what ifs but it was doable with the wind in the right direction:) certainly more doable than it is likely to be for a long time to come which is what got my flippin hopes up at the time... although in reality in was never their WC to win as you say a_a so a fair result in the end. Still, I wouldn't mind if Wales could go back to playing that sort of attacking rugby with the current standard of defense...
Priestland and Shane ate the only really differences in attack. The team is much the same apart from Shane, Phillips, Adam and the Bennett. Shane is the only player we havent replaced with a similar standard.
It is also odd that players like Biggar and Roberts have been some of the form guys for Wales but equally are the style of player that hold a more fluid, attacking game plan back. I'd love to see a 2011 Priestland back again but it doesn't look like it will happen any time soon.
I'm not sure someone like Morgan is the answer to the missing Shane mojo as a lot of people seem to want but do wonder if 1/2p on the wing (assuming a decent FB alternative) could be close, getting back a smart, fast, niggly runner in the team.
Again though, what 1/2p does so well at fullback in defense pretty much eliminates all the attacking threat that got him first noticed when he broke on to the scene as he has so much work to do at the back. No idea what the solution is and if it was obvious I guess it would have already happened by now!
anagallis_arvensis - MemberEngland went out because they lost to Wales at home a game they should have at least drawn. A draw would have gotvthem through!
Indeed - but being neither Welsh nor English, I'll leave others to worry about that.
[url= http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/schools-rugby/neil-francis-bulls-medical-letter-misses-the-point-70-socalled-experts-lack-the-qualifications-necessary-34514849.html ]Neil Francis always has something to say and this article about the "doctors" who called for reduced contact in a letter last week is quite interesting reading...[/url]
There's some ummmm astonishing stuff in there, Albanach.
Aye your dead right there John
The only problem with Francis is that Copsey didnt hit him hard enough!
Neil Francis always has something to say and this article about the "doctors" who called for reduced contact in a letter last week is quite interesting reading...
Brilliant link, thanks for that Albanach.
I did question the quality of the academics on the other thread, but I didn't find the additional "colour".
I've read a lot of his pieces over the years - he generally has something of interest to say.
Cheers for the link. 🙂
Just watched saracens Northampton. Never seen a more depressing example of scrummaging. It seemed every scrum was just played for a penalty. Think the stat was 50% led to penalty. Two good teams but little expansive play as it was all about the penalty scrum.
I didn't find the additional "colour".
Indeed. Not nice.
Anyway, Lawes is out. That means Lunchboy is a shoo in for man of the match.
Tuilagi good for impact off the bench. Apparently.
All gone quiet here. You Englanders not confident? Will Tuilagi start and if so who plays 10?
Yep, not confident. I think the Welsh defence will cancel out our attack and the back row will make a mess of our breakdowns. Playing Tuilagi is too much of a gamble. He's probably currently only fit enough for a bench 'cameo' role at international level, but what if he has to come on after 5 minutes? Although I do think he'll be on the bench come Saturday. However I still think we might just edge it - ever the optimist.
Yep, not confident.
I started watching Eng v Wal in the 70's - I think it's been bred into me 😆 I used to have to answer the phone to my Dad's mate (with a 70's non-pc nickname relating to the river in Cardiff)
"No, sorry, Dad's out at the moment"
Still at least Steve Walsh has given up refereeing so it stops you Walshmen having that advantage.
You Englanders not confident? Will Tuilagi start and if so who plays 10?
No and No.
All gone quiet here. You Englanders not confident? Will Tuilagi start
Its Tuesday, what is there to say. No he'll come on as sub. Ford will start at 10. It should be a cracking game and as I posted before I expect Wales to improve massively from what we've seen so far, as such the result hangs in the balance. England to win the meaningless post RWC 6N but a Grand Slam is far from certain.
England to win the meaningless post RWC 6N but a Grand Slam is far from certain.
no 6N is meaningless, Autumn internationals are meaningless...
no 6N is meaningless, Autumn internationals are meaningless...
? 😯
it doesn't matter who/who is not confident - the only thing that matters is what happens on the pitch
I just can't decide who will give away the first daft England penalty that will make me bury my head in my hands - Farrell or Haskell?
Back row under pressure...