[Closed] 2015-16 rugby, world cup year

DanW - Member
There's some weird English infighting going on! English fans suggest ([b]correctly IMO[/b]) that big Sam doesn't deserve a WC spot and they get labelled Welsh Haterz and now English fans express feelings of uncertainty after some poor games and get called Welsh fanbois

POSTED 11 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST

😆

Wow, another anti Burgess opinion added.
By my reasoning above, you're either a rugby snob or a Wales fan ?
Do I owe you an apology?

😉

Seems to me that there are some league fans who were hoping big Sam to be better in Union than he is......

As Brian Moore rightly points out - Burgess should be considered for 2019.

Wasting time with him now is utter nonsense - shame on the coaching staff. They should have been looking at people who can already play Union.

a rugby snob or a Wales fan ?

I'm both. Do I get a prize?

🙂

Agree with the Burgess comments, the only league player who really made it that fast is Billy Whizz, but he's a freak and his ability to beat players 1 on 1 (or sometime 9 or 10 on one) was like nothing I've seen again. To put him on as a substitute winger the right way of doing it, and in a few international games he's gone to a nailed on full back.
He might make it in another couple of seasons, and I can see him nailed on by the end of the 6 nations, but not yet, not for the next 6 games!

the only league player who really made it that fast is Billy Whizz

He did have a spell with Bath about three years earlier too.

Israel Folau has probably made the fastest transition to world class level. His stellar performance in the first Lions Test of 2013 was after only 14 games of Super Rugby - during which he'd already been top try scorer for the Waratahs.

Didn't Folau also release a range of backpacks?

namastebuzz - Member
As Brian Moore rightly points out - Burgess should be considered for 2019.
Wasting time with him now is utter nonsense - shame on the coaching staff. They should have been looking at people who can already play Union.

Brian Moore really can talk crap.
Whether Sam's considered good enough for 2019 or not is one of the most irrelevant arguments he could possibly try to make. It's got jack to do with selection for this WC. The choice isn't between Burgess in 2019 and Burgess now.
Simple process for Lancaster - decide what jobs he needs his players to perform for him in this WC then choose which players are best suited to do that.

wrecker - Member
Seems to me that there are some league fans who were hoping big Sam to be better in Union than he is......

That sounds to me like the Brian Moore argument reworded.
Again, doesn't matter how good he might have been compared to how good he is, those aren't the options. It's whether he can do a better job (as Lancaster sees it) than the other players in the current training squad.

Preferred your earlier argument that Burrell is a better centre than Burgess. You're probably right overall, especially as cover for 13, but different coaches prioritize different skillsets.
They are probably more similar players than Burgess and Slade though. Can't really understand why most commentators (eg Guscott) are claiming it's between Burgess and Slade for the spot. For me , it's not a choice between those two but between Burgess/Burrell.
Surely Cipriani's similarity to Slade (playmaker covering same positions) makes him a bigger threat to Slade and vice versa, and Burgess to Burrell?

Would be intersted to see an England fan's predicted/preferred 31.

Would be intersted to see an England fan's predicted/preferred 31.

So would I. Problem is, with a few exceptions most on here would start with Wilkinson, Dilly Dally and Johnno! 😉

a-a I think you've omitted Dusty Hair from your line up.

and Rory Underwood.

Preferred your earlier argument that Burrell is a better centre than Burgess.

Wow, another anti Burgess opinion added.
By my reasoning above, you're either a rugby snob or a Wales fan ?
Do I owe you an apology?

All of the above 😆

I still believe England have too much talent at their disposal which is 95% world beating standard but lacking the final polishing (through lack of decent management/ coaching) to be a really great side. Too many form players have missed their opportunity to shine and it is only in the last year or so the squad selection has cast the net a bit wider, which I believe has actually brought some great new players in to the side. Feels like a few years too late but that is probably the pressure to win absolutely every game rather than build as such.

I don't think any team is going to look at England and fear them... but then maybe that works in their favour. I think we can expect the side to be picked on the basis of avoiding f*ck ups rather than reeeaaaallly proactively going after a match which to be fair is a very pragmatic approach to any team based tournament. Again, the lack of "ambition" in the squad selection most of us expect will probably actually work in their favour as the tournament progresses. Not what the more neutral fans perhaps want to see but I guess an English fan is happy to win ugly if it means winning just like the rest of us with our teams

Excellent summary DanW

When in need...

http://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12504/9965226/dylan-hartley-not-ruled-out-of-england-squad-says-graham-rowntree

Might as well get this out of the way.
[img] #[/img]

Shockingly, I'm pleased that the headbutting, punching, gouging kiwi biter may get a call up - and I really rate Tom Youngs, but there's no way we shouldn't have our best there.

oh shit our hookers are a bit crap

Too slow, got called away to an emergency spider removal!

Hartley has been banned so many times they all blur in to one for me... I can't even remember what his last ban was for!

there's no way we shouldn't have our best there for at most 70 minutes of the first game.

FTFY. 🙂

Oh CFH, and here I was thinking "what should I do with my excess rum allowance..."

To be fair Hartley is a good player, strong in the scrum and very good arrows.

Kryton, I do very well out of Duty Free on my travels! Well enough to give you a hard time here!

Hope you had a cracking trip, by the way! Am more than a touch jealous.

Ha ha, still two days to go.... And yes it's been another great one.... Bahama's planned for 2019.

Back to rugby, I've little doubt Hartely will be back Tbh, he's proved his form. And phew... But who stays..... Youngs needs a good game now to keep his 2nd spot.

Indeed, back to rugby....

Hartley IS a good player, that much is true. However, he's also a scarily regular liability, proven to snap far too easily. Every single opponent will know that. Every single ref will know that. He's a marked man, not for his quality play, but as someone who WILL get a card during the WC if he's picked. Can't afford that level of liability in the WC in my opinion.

So England have realised that Tom Youngs is actually a shit hooker and that they might need Hartley after all.

I wonder if they've also figured out that their back row is equally shit at the breakdown and it might be worth giving Steffon Armitage a shout - probably not until after they've lost to Australia and/or Wales.....

F*** stefon armitage.

In which case they probably also need a full back. Delon? and a prop - Stevens?

My England 31
Hartley, youngs, Webber
Mako V, Marler, Cole, Brookes
Lawes, Launchbury, Atwood, Kruis
Robshaw, Wood, Billy V, Morgan, Haskell

Care, Youngs, wigglesworth
Ford, Farrell
Barritt, Joseph, Burrell, Slade, Burgess
May, Nowell, Watson
Brown, Goode

With a starting XV:
Vunipola, Hartley, Brookes
Lawes, Launchbury
Robshaw, wood, Morgan

Care, Ford,
Burrell, Joseph
May, Watson Brown

Bench: mako V, Youngs, Cole, Attwood, Haskell, Youngs, Goode, Slade.

Englands problem is a lack of stand out world class been there and done it players. Players like Brown, Ford, Care, B Youngs, B Vunipola, Robshaw,Lawes, Lauchbury and Cole etc are all quality internationals but are they top class. Wales have a few in AWJ, Warburton, Roberts and maybe North and Halfpenny maybe not much better but they have experience and Lions test caps. Wales problem is we have some more players like Ball, 2015 Gethin, Cuthbert, Priestland who are barely test class and then some really dross like Jarvis, Dacey, Andrews who are barely pro class. The England squad on average is much stronger and their test front 5 is stronger than the welsh by a long way.
Tuilagi is a big loss imo as he is a special player. Shame for you lot that him and May have never been paired together. Ford, Tuilagi and May looks like a potent midfield to me.

Edited... I dont mean May do I! Joeseph.. he could be one of those stand out players

dantsw13...Hartley isnt in the squad and is still banned. Other than that it looks about right. England could be in trouble if Robshaw gets a knock as it would mean Hask at 7 and the seemingly out of form Wood at 6.
If you start with M Vunipola v Wales I will be very happy.

I've little doubt Hartely will be back Tbh, he's proved his form.

How has he done this whilst banned?

I concur with the exceptions of Haskell for Wood, Youngs for Hartley and Burgess for Burrell.

dantsw13...Hartley isnt in the squad and is still banned.

And you appear to have Billy Vunipola as a prop! Your test 8 has to be Billy V over Morgan surely. Morgan was awful v France at twickers...unsuprisingly given his broken leg.

Oops - I made too many edits without cross-checking 😳

Hartley will be available after the Fiji game. I know he's out of the squad, but I would have him.

I prefer Marler as my starter with Mako for impact.

I know Morgan is still short of fitness, but if he plays the Ireland and Fiji games he will be ready for the big games. As with his brother I think Billy V is a bigger impact player whereas Morgan has a better all-round game.

Once squads are announced, are injury replacements allowed?

Yes but can't play for a bit (71 hrs?)

So how many hours after a hooker gets injured against Fiji is there before Hartley can play Wales? 🙂

Approximately ten times the time difference between Hartley taking to the pitch and going for a little sit down for ten minutes.

;')

Hartley, George, Weber
M Vunipola, Marler, Cole, Wilson
Lawes, Launchbury, Parling, Easter
S Armitage, Robshaw, Wood, B Vunipola, Morgan,

Care, Youngs, Simpson
Ford, Farrell, Cipriani
Joseph, Burrell, Slade, Eastmond
May, Wade, Watson
Foden, D Armitage

Good work thats 5 players not in the extended squad. Whats the point of Easter over Attwood when you have two 8's anyway and he wouldnt be as good as Attwood asca lock and be shite as a 6 and even shitier as a 7? Steffon can cover 6, 7 and 8 (with his gut he could cover more).

Cips left out I hear?

Twins?

[img] https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT2RlsNvpGYw2ETgNfvvUhTNUQ6azelMHJFYWT1BdxFHmR9ScbL4w [/img]

[img] [/img]

Cips left out I hear?

So Sky sports is reporting. He must wonder what he has to do to play for his country (apart from stay out of the headlines).

Morgan only had an hour in his legs when he was "fit", he's blowing after 1/2 now, sorry to say but that injury has done him for this year.

No chance that he's anywhere near first choice ahead of Billy, who's done the opposite and turned himself into an 80 minute player .
And tbh, morgan's a very poor bench choice too 'cos he lacks any versatility as cover - as well as his fitness - injured flanker in the first half and they're stuffed. A 20 minute impact man isn't enough for a BR in the WC. Therefore no point taking him as fifth BR, he can go home and watch the games on the exercise bike.
Can see Lancaster taking Easter ahead of him too now, he offers that bit of versatility and experience that they don't really have elsewhere. second choice 8, possible lock, and put's pressure on two bench spots in the final 23.
If he's got any balls, he can use that to his advantage in squad selection. Can't see the point in taking JG or LCD either when they so obviously wouldn't want to play them - and there's a creative way to get the man they want back after Fiji. By picking Easter (Cover's br and lock) and a versatile extra back (cover 10, 13, 15, poss more) in a 16/15 split- Slade's the man - and go two hookers like Oz - and get first choice hooker coming "out" as first injury replacement for whoever goes home first after Fiji. Obviously Props and Halves excluded - but any other injury - even a back - could work really.

Marler, Mako,
Youngs, Webber
Cole, Wilson, Brookes
Lawes, Launchbury, atwood, Kruis,
Robshaw, Woods, Billy, haskell, Easter

Care, Youngs, Wworth
Ford, farrell,
Slade
Barritt, burgess, Joseph, Burrell

Nowell, Watson, May
Brown, Goode

("departure lounge" - hartley)

To me, whatever squad he's going to pick now looks a little short of wing cover with only three in the training squad and the two 15s rather unusually not really covering there. But taking the extra FH/centre would allow JJ to go out if really need and maintain decent cover in midfield - bit like the 6N when there was an injury.

Intresting looking at England squads. Hooker and 7 are potrntial problems if you get an injury or 2. I'd take Morgan over Easter as Wood or Haskel can cover all the backrow from the bench. You could take an extra wing/full back if you dropped Slade. Goode can cover 10 against Uraguay. Although I'd take Slade over Burgess or Barritt.

anagallis_arvensis - Member

Good work thats 5 players not in the extended squad. Whats the point of Easter over Attwood?

True enough - I did consider that. OK Attwood is in and Morgan out as he's not really fit enough.

But that's my final word. 😉

With regard to Loums post above, I'd ensure I had Cips over Slade (for experience) or Goode (for talent). Otherwise he made a good point about the back row, as much as I like Ben Morgan when fit - maybe Morgan goes home to his exercise bike but remains on injury cover, I suspect Cips will also.

Interesting now most of us getting Slade, Burgess and Burrell in.

Apart from the obvious Armitage, which other candidates are there for a 7?

Oh, and as well as being fat, out of form, injured, and unable to cover lock or any other position, - Morgan is really Welsh. 😉

7 is a funny one. There's the obvious unwanted European star missing, and then apart from that, England seem to think that Robshaw, Haskell, Woods, Callum Clark is the order. Fair enough, Quite happy to NOT see Clarke at a World Cup.
And there aren't any more wing/ fullbacks in the training squad.

K57,
Cips does seem to be a little hard done by to be behind someone like Goode, but I think Lancaster likes him 'cos he's a FB who might cover FH if really needed rather than a 3rd choice FH who's more likely to be needed out of position as 2nd FB. Squad shape rather than talent really., as neither are likely 1st choice starters. To be fair to Goode, he's had a few games and not really let Lancaster down.
Slade is a better centre than both, and then covers the other positions.

Can't believe cipriani is being left out. Big mistake by Lancaster that.

I'd ensure I had Cips over Slade (for experience)

Experience of what, running into buses and a oiding drink driving charges? Goode is a decent player. Reliable, good boot, often beats the first man and acts as a second 10 on attack, I'd rather have him at 15 than Cips and Farrel seems to be favoured over Cips at 10 so Cips is not needed.

Beeb reporting Anscombe injured which means Matt Morgan may be going to the world cup. God help us, if you thought Cips was a hot and cold player wait till you see him!

Farrel comes across as to hot headed sometimes on the pitch.

e can go home and watch the games on the exercise bike.

Well fortunately, despite being English, I have a Scottish mother, Irish grandmother and Welsh grandfather.

Should come in handy when I find myself cheering against England.....

I know how it is. I'm half Irish, and I have a feeling that I'll be using it in the later stages!

Cipps is an ideal world cup player a couple of flashes of brilliant play inspire a side into believing they can win. If he has gotten into strife off the pitch(again) then fair do's he stays at home.

Ireland are the strongest of the home nations but the draw and home adv gives england the best chance.

Read an interesting piece looking at the ABs likely squad which suggested even someone like SBW could be left out depending on who else was picked.

Mind you, if they can play like they've played the last couple of years, most rugby fans wouldn't begrudge them winning it.

Some great tries, why can NH players not straighten, draw a man and pass?

This may draw comment but cipriani can, and does.
It'll be a real shame if he's not selected. I honestly think hes earnt it.
Looks like the media machine has mobilised for burgess which normally means he's in. I'll not be at all happy if slade goes home.

Wales team for ireland announced tomorrow. Might be something like:

M Morgan (I was expecting Anscombe)
North
T Morgan
C Allen
Amos
Priestland
Davies
Moriarty
Tips
Lydiate
Bradley Davies
Charteris
Francis
Owens
Paul James/Rob Evans

Or will we go with all the big guns and have acteam like above v italy?

Not selected. Travesty. He could have scored 20 points last week and a blind man on a galloping horse could see Lancaster was never going to take him.

Or will we go with all the big guns and have acteam like above v italy?

I think North needs a run out for sure. Otherwise wouldn't it be more morale boosting to get a win over the Irish and therefore play a stronger side?

Then again a morale busting loss would be more likely even with the big boys out. I'm not sure we can aford to risk Sam, Not Toby, AWJ and Roberts.

I feel sorry for Cipriani, he's done well when brought in but the fact is no one in the Engkand setup (or me) trust him. I suppose it's possible he could yet be called up if there's an injury, much like the AB 10 who ended up kicking the winning points in the final but that's a long shot. It's time for him to move on, make some good money in France. Such a talented player wasted his chance at the start of his career. We don't know yet what will come of the drunk driving (?) event but there's too much evidence to say nothing has changed inside his head.

Edit: got a mailing for top 14 tickets, Slade Francis v Toulon in Sep for £8. I wonder what the games will be like with so many players away.mgoing to be tough on the clubs

Nightmare penalty potential with cole, Haskell, Hartley and Farrell on the pitch. Only cole has a big game temperament the others will overreact and be sent walking for silliness. Cole penalised for slipping round a ruck or going beyond the ball too obviously too often.

I predict Farrell will implode under the expectation of a home nation, he is flaky enough in 6 nations games. I would love to see him give some Islander one of his petulant digs and get absolutely hammered.

Is Cips the english Quade Cooper? can do brilliant things but a head full of toys.

Beeb reporting Slade and Burgess going, so other two Joeseph and Barrit?

jambalaya - Member

there's too much evidence to say nothing has changed inside his head.

Whilst you make some good points I don't agree with this. He's knuckled down for Sale the past few seasons and been consistently excellent.

SL told him he was part of the RWC plans to prevent him going to Toulon and then proceeded to give him virtually no opportunities at all.

18 minutes at FH vs Italy where he scored a try immediately and then set up another and was generally excellent.
A few last minute run ons at FB.
30 minutes at FB against France when England didn't have the ball.
27 minutes against France where he played all over the backline and was by far England's best back, also scored again.

Fair enough if we had some world class players keeping him out but to see useless lumps like Farrell, Barritt, Haskell, Goode and Tom Youngs going to the party must be infuriating for him.

can do brilliant things but a head full of toys

See also The Orange One.

What Namasterbuzz said. As a ST holder at Sale he has been pretty flawless both in his play and his temperament. I think its not so much the fact that he has been omitted more the fact that Lancaster has strung him along, he is no doubt been a bit embarrassed when despite limited game time he has still shone.

but there's too much evidence to say nothing has changed inside his head.

Can you show some of this "evidence"?

Slightly off the current discussion - but an amusing Jonah Lomu vid in the run up to the world cup...

Can you show some of this "evidence"?

The drink driving thing was a massive own goal tbf.
He has also never really done anything at the top level. That leg break at the wrong time really did for him.

The Times this morning suggests Stade may be his next port of call. Correct me if I am wrong,but is drink driving not compulsory in France?

Well innocent until proven guilty on the drink driving I'd say - like anybody else.

He totally ripped Ireland apart in the 6N I recall and then got that nasty ankle injury wasn't it?

The point being he clearly has the talent and with the right management he could possibly have been a world class fly-half. Thing is, we'll never know as SL doesn't care for his type.

Anyway, Toulon generally don't bother trying to hire too many second rate players do they?

Has Farrell done anything at the top level, he was a dirt tracker for the Lions.

Pigface - Member

Has Farrell done anything at the top level, he was a dirt tracker for the Lions.

He came out of Andy's balls,that would appear to be enough.

Ouch!

😆

Wales team for ireland announced tomorrow. Might be something like:

M Morgan (I was expecting Anscombe)
North
T Morgan
C Allen
Amos
Priestland
Davies
Moriarty
Tips
Lydiate
Bradley Davies
Charteris
Francis
Owens
Paul James/Rob Evans

Or will we go with all the big guns and have acteam like above v italy?

It's last chance before the squad announcements for Ireland so IMO, it would be fairest and best to give the chance to those players who still need to do something to claim a spot.

For Ireland, maybe FJones, Earls, DKearney, Fitz and McFadden need some time at the back, marbe mixing it up a bit from the other games with Earls wing and Fitz and Mcfadden centre. But sadly it looks like Gilroy's not really in the frame any more. Cave deserves another go too, and if they're still under consideration then Boss and Marmion at SH.
There are rumours that Madigan night be covering 3rd SH spot like Giteau and OZ - Boss only played 60 unneccesary minutes at the last WC so not a complete crazy gamble - which could be a fun 20 minutes this weekend.

Up front, it looks like the first match ever that Schmidt won't start MIke Ross.
Marty Moore came on for him in 10/10 times in the last two 6N , but still injured so must be in danger for WC. Healy's still out too and two crocked props would be too much to take. Nathan White , Kilcoyne, and Bent all need game time to prove their worth.Would be nice to see what Cronin does from the start with them too as he's likely to be coming on with them on 60 in WC.
Think Henderson and Murphy are in the squad now due to versatillity, so the two most at risk of missing out if 6 props are needed are D Ryan and Chris Henry. Both deserve to start on Sat to show what they can do.