[Closed] 2015-16 rugby, world cup year

I think that there's too much pressure to win every game from up high (and the public) which prevents the England manager from experimenting.

A mates son is getting capped at U16 today for Wales, good luck Paris Thomas

Let's judge Lancaster after the tournament. IMO the whole England setup has been building for this tournament. Its a home world cup. A pretty average French team made the final in 2011 and went down 8-7 in the face of some very poor refereeing (how many penalties where they denied ?). England where no great shakes in 2007 either and where a "foot in touch" away from a shock win. This is very high pressure rugby, its about winning. England have a squad of players who could win it. Whether they do will turn on a few key moments. Same applies to a few teams, thats what mkes the torunament so exciting

Let's judge Lancaster after the tournament.

Of course but I don't hold out any great hopes.

England have great depth (especially up front) and enough quality that, coupled with home advantage, gives them an outside chance.

I just feel that the coaching staff have done little to impprove that chance over the last four years. SL said his aim was to have a settled team with several hundred caps going into the RWC but he hasn't managed that. England have also failed to win the 6N and have a miserable record against the SH.

Is his aim to win this world cup, though? Genuine question, as in, is he aiming for a longer term with a young team?

It's an interesting question but surely a home RWC is there to be won, not as an experiment for 2019. People say England have a great crop of U-20s who'll come through for 2019 but if that was the plan then the likes of Itoje and Slade would've been tried before now.

On a lighter note, I'd posted this on the old Rugby thread before I realised that this one had started.

If you've got five minutes to spare - this is a great story:

[url= http://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2015/aug/13/the-forgotten-story-of-steve-merrick ]The Last Amateur[/url]

Cricfree is covered in ads and I can't get under them to pay anything.

Any other suggestions?

Close as many as you can then go full screen.

England are being eaten alive at the breakdown. The flankers are absent mainly (I think) because they have Billy V man marking Bastardo.

Thanks for that n-buzz,made me all nostalgic. I am the same age as him and it made me long for the days when we had international players at club level,and played against them most weeks. It sometimes seems the game has been professional for ages,and I wonder if somebody making his senior club debut next week will look back on it in nearly 35 years they way I do,actually scratch that,I am playing against a touring Chilean side in three weeks,so not retired yet!

And now we have ****ing Sanderson. This is why I hate rugby on sky. The man's a complete turd who should never have won a single england cap.

What utter shite.

Tell you what. The "Pool of Death" is looking pretty tough now.

Australia, Wales AND Fiji? All in the same group?

😉

England are going to get massacred in the RWC. They'll get out of the group but that's it.
Some points;
-Ford is not nailed on 10, and nor should he be. He awful under pressure.
-Care is the best 9 england has as shown last week and this.
-May's frailties massively exposed. He's a good runner but he has severe deficiencies. Nowell less threatening but far more rounded rugby player.
-Burrel played well. I'm going to be annoyed that either he or slade will lose out to Burgess. That is really really shit.
-Tom Youngs cannot throw a rugby ball.
-You can't ref a scrum when the ground is ****ed.
-Cipriani must be in.

Cips scores. Burrell stakes his claim a bit.

Kryton wonders he should have bought a Welsh supporters shirt instead.

Kryton wonders he should have bought a Welsh supporters shirt instead.

-Care is the best 9 England has as shown last week and this.

Agreed. Really glad that he's sorted out his demons from a few years ago. Exciting player to watch.

-Burrel played well. I'm going to be annoyed that either he or slade will lose out to Burgess. That is really really shit.

Sadly, for all concerned, I think that's nailed on. Burgess is the Messiah, apparently. Feel sorry for him, because he clearly isn't. But he will be picked. At hooker, probably, after tonight's performance!

Kryton wonders he should have bought a Welsh supporters shirt instead.

An English supporting friend of mine is on record as saying he'll switch to Wales if Burgess is picked, claiming a Welsh great-grandmother. 🙂

2nd half just shows - if you have the ball DON't kick it to the opposition!! Drives me nuts that.

Ooh, they're coming back now!

Cue the papers praising the Golden Generation. 😉

Lol @Wrecker.

CFH, it's Mrs K's turn to put he kids to bed tonight, looks like I shall be visiting the Jazz lounge and it's well stocked rum bar with my new best friend Admiral Rodney.

visiting the Jazz lounge...with my new best friend Admiral Rodney.

Why not just admit that you're having a [url= ]clicky linky as it's a rather rude, but funny, image[/url]

🙂

Sadly, for all concerned, I think that's nailed on

Based on what we've seen so far;
Marler
George
Vunipola
Launchbury
Atwood
Robshaw
Morgan
Haskell
Care
Farrell
Slade or Cipriani
JJ
Watson
Nowell
Brown

Oh dear 😆 😆 😆

Careful pigface, careful. You have friendlies against Italy and Uruguay coming up.....

Wrecker, there's one name missing from your team selection up there.....

😉

Mine?
It's Burgess isn't it?
**** you Sam Burgess!!!!!

I think that's nailed on. Burgess is the Messiah, apparently.

He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy......

You would be too CFH if you saw the shape of the entertainment staff down here.

Poor game. England can do better but if he game vs Ireland goes against is next week I feel doom. Now is not the time to be building, now is the time to be playing. Our lack of 7 / 7 type qualities Is there for all to see.

Drink rum and prosper I say...

Re-read that post this morning k57...

Cipriani was the single most effective change. Leaving aside the very well taken try he transformed the team in the last few minutes, aided by a few other late changes (Easter, Attwood)
England slow and labouring, a poor pitch which made it impossible to referee the scrum as well as a couple of other strange decisions. It was only when Cipriani came on did England show any flair or attacking intent. From that point on France were on the backfoot.
No doubt Lancaster will leave him out.

Dr Jaw would love to see Cipriani at 12!

Wrecker that was for the rude man rather than you decent Saes 😆

Hartley is going to prove a huge loss I fear. Anyone else think that Wilson should be in ahead of Cole? For me Wilson is currently far better in the scrum....not quite as visible around the park, but then Cole is an absolute penalty machine and has been for a while!

As a few others have said, it'll be a travesty is Slade and Cips are dropped and Slammin Sam stays.

Disappointing match from a partisan England fan's perspective. The failure of the pack, in particular the tight 5, to even compete for much of the match is a significant concern. England looked tired, drawn and thin with many players appearing to have lost bulk and consistently losing out in the tight contact one on one battles.

Difficult to judge the backs as they had no ball and were behind a pack going backwards at a rate of knots. I think on balance, after some initial wobbles, Ford didn't do too badly; I suspect Farrell (who to be fair I'm not a fan of) would have got frustrated and done something daft or niggly and potentially got penalised or even carded.

Whilst I think the lack of a decent classic open side is a concern and will have a negative impact if we manage to progress in the WC it made little difference last night; even the best open sides (McCaw, Jones, Smith, Back, Rives, Calder) would have been unable to achieve much in a pack being so comprehensively outplayed.

Whilst I think the lack of a decent classic open side is a concern and will have a negative impact

When was the last time England had a proper 7? Neil Back, I'm thinking?

I'm not sure a proper 7 is the problem if your scrum and lineout are being shafted any 7 will struggle, ask Martyn Williams. What is a proper 7 anyway. Tipuric is more a classic 7 than Warburton but warnurton has done a very good job at 6 or 7 but Warburton is a more effective player at international level. SOB is no "proper" 7 but a great player.

I'm not sure a proper 7 is the problem if your scrum and lineout are being shafted any 7 will struggle, ask Martyn Williams.

Completely agree.

What is a proper 7 anyway.

The unbalanced back row consisting of the 3 biggest blokes you can find is a peculiarly NH phenomenon (England have suffered from it since the Jack Rowell days with the exception of the brief Neil Back era) and perhaps explains the general lack of success of NH teams vs the SH. The ABs who have never been without a 'classic" open side, view the position as more / as important as the fly half...

Rugby has changed. All players are now expected to have a crack at a turnover and backs to participate in rucks rather than have one single nutter with a seven on his back who tries to get to the bottom of every ruck. I spent years doing this but I'd never have been a 7 in the game now.

Tallies last para and wreckers post is what Brian Moore states on his latest book; not withstanding the requirement to bind and push that basically 1 and 7 at least have been replaced from a skills perspective by big blokes.

And yet the great 7's still seem tomhave more effect at the breakdowns than others. Look at Julian Salvi for Leicester (now Exeter) somehow they are always there, knowing when a turnover is possible and getting into the right position to achieve.
England were a shambles. How have, in the course of 5 weeks coaching, the Engl and pack been made to look so bloody woeful. Cole could scrummage for example, that hooker was doing storming runs all over the place ( and hit his line out jumpers some of the time). the power of the pack would snuff the life out of teams (including France)and somehow, they now look like a poor Australian pack with no threat behind the pack either.
In the backs, Cips looks good and I expect him to be dropped shortly along with Slade, and they can join the other wingers who look like game changers playing in a regional nothingness until the. World cups over.

It's not going to be a pretty World Cup that's a fact! Wales and Aus to qualify on recent performances

Jones (both Michael and Gywn),

I'm not sure Gwyn Jones deserves to be mentioned in the same breath as my favourite ever non welsh player and all time great

Oh and if turnovers are what makes a proper 7 then Warburton is light years ahead of Tipuric. Tipuric is a very good broken fileld runner and link player but he aint much cop atcthe breakdown against the big boys.

France squad:

Forwards: Uini Atonio (La Rochelle), Eddy Ben Arous (Racing Metro), Vincent Debaty (Clermont), Nicolas Mas (Montpellier), Rabah Slimani (Stade Francais), Guilhem Guirado (Toulon), Benjamin Kayser (Clermont), Dimitri Szarzewski (Racing Metro), Alexandre Flanquart (Stade Francais), Yoann Maestri (Toulouse), Pascal Pape (Stade Francais), Thierry Dusautoir (Toulouse), Bernard Le Roux (Racing Metro), Yannick Nyanga (Toulouse), Fulgence Ouedraogo (Montpellier), Damien Chouly (Clermont), Louis Picamoles (Toulouse).

Backs: Rory Kockott (Castres), Morgan Parra (Clermont), Sebastien Tillous-Borde (Toulon), Frederic Michalak (Toulon), Remi Tales (Racing Metro), Mathieu Bastareaud (Toulon), Alexandre Dumoulin (Racing Metro), Gael Fickou (Toulouse), Wesley Fofana (Clermont), Brice Dulin (Racing Metro), Sofiane Guitoune (Bordeaux-Begles), Yoann Huget (Toulouse), Noa Nakaitaci (Clermont), Scott Spedding (Clermont).

In the backs, Cips looks good and I expect him to be dropped shortly along with Slade, and they can join the other wingers who look like game changers playing in a regional nothingness until the. World cups over.

Talking of which - anyone see Christian Wade in the Premiership 7S? He was brilliant. Seven tries in three games.

Mind you, he's had his international chance. One solitary cap on the 2013 tour to Argentina. He was electric in the 1st test but missed the 2nd test due to being called up by the Lions. Since then - nothing.

Greenwood and Woodward - a lot of wood there - name thier 31 on Sky sports. Losers are Cips, Corbs, Attwood, Burgess, LCD, Easter, w/worth, May Slade and 36.

Although Greenwood diplomatically States that Burrell will lose out to Burgess 'golden boy status.

If I dare go back to the Haka for a moment, this was a rather well put piece;
http://www.eatsleeprugby.co.uk/blogs/hakad-off%E2%80%8F/

I read a very well written piece by Sam Roberts, a fellow friend to Eat Sleep Rugby. The only problem was I didn't agree with his perspective. Now this is OK, rugby is nuanced enough to have differing points of view. The article was about how great NZ's pre match tribal war dance, the Haka, is. You can read it here. Sadly (and it is sad) I don't agree.
I don't like the Haka anymore, the only time I've cheered it in the last 15 years was when the All Blacks refused to perform it in Cardiff. There, I said it. It's not a popular view but below are my reasons why.
I used to like the Haka, I liked it when I was a kid and the All Blacks would appear on tour once every 4 years. Seeing them perform it was a special event, just like the game itself. 15 men would get in a semi circle, perform a 20 second dance to the applause of the crowd and get on with the game. There was little or no fuss, it just happened and it seemed special. These days the modern Haka takes ages, one of the All Blacks stands in the middle acting as ringleader, shouting and pacing up and down, while the rest kneel down with their fist on the ground, randomly pulling out their tongues. The ringleader then shouts some more, finally, they stand up and carry out something that passes for a Haka, but only for brief glimpses. Sometimes they slit their throats at the end, other times they end by standing like 15 men trying to squeeze out some flatulence. Gone are the days of the guaranteed leap in the air.
I lost a lot of respect for the Haka when they switched from the old 'Ka Mate' of my childhood to the new 'Kapa O Pango' version in the mid 2000s. I couldn't care less about the throat slitting gesture that caused so much aggro at the time, that never bothered me. What did bother me was the bullshit that surrounded the need for a new Haka. The NZRFU propaganda department released a delightful YouTube film where Aaron Mauger and Tana Umaga discussed the need for a new Haka that was more relevant for the multicultural Polynesian team (So much for Maori tradition!) and less of a burden to perform than the old Haka (??!)

What they failed to mention in this clip was how in the 10 years since professionalism was introduced, the cash strapped NZRFU were doing their best to monetise the famous All Blacks brand. Performing a traditional Haka that existed in the public domain was damaging to their brand as other brands were free to use it too. Further complications arose as tribal elders were unhappy with the commercial aspects of it's use. The various copyright ramifications of a Maori tribal war dance in the modern commercial world are complicated and explained at length in this thorough piece; http://www.academia.edu/2028087/A_Game_of_Chants_Can_a_Haka_Constitute_Intellectual_Property
In the long run, it was easier for the NZRFU to simply create a new Haka that could be protected by copyright, thus protecting their brand, I would have accepted this as a reason. Like shirt sponsorship and corporate hospitality, it's the ugly, mercenary side of the game but hey, you have to accept it as part of professionalism. But instead of coming clean about the reasons, the nonsense and mendacity has been stifling. It's become almost unacceptable within the game to say anything negative that could disrupt the respect shown to this recently choreographed, commercially necessitated war dance due to 'tradition' and 'history'. For a while they became really sensitive too, stories about the All Blacks being angered by the opposition's 'lack of respect' were frankly embarrassing to read. Check it out yourself http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/7750284.stm . Lions captain Brian O'Driscoll in 2005 threw grass in the air to accept the challenge of the Haka on the advice of Maori elders only to get spear tackled 2 minutes later. As he visted hospital the Kiwi press laid into his 'lack of respect' what was he to think of his efforts to show exactly that? For fear of upsetting the All Blacks any more, World Rugby tournament rules apparently now even protect the Haka against being approached by opposing teams, negating the drama so beloved by many fans.
I don't know why the All Blacks need such a chip on their shoulders about this, it's not as if no-one respects them, they are the best rugby team on the planet, and they know it. But every time the Haka is now performed I don't see something priceless and precious, I see people being precious about something with a price tag and it annoys me, just get on with the game.

Tom B - Member
....Cole is an absolute penalty machine and has been for a while!

Interesting - According to ESPN stats, Marler gave away 3 penalties, Billy Vunipola 4 and Cole 1. Ben Arous the French loosehead prop facing Cole conceded 3 penalties.

And yet I thought the same as you!

Does anyone know where you can get proper stats such as meters carried by player etc?

wrecker - Member

Does anyone know where you can get proper stats such as meters carried by player etc?

Aye, from the same folk who hacked the Ashley Madison site. DD has been quiet since then dontchathink?

Most of the stats are pointless shite. Often fullbacks gain massive metres by running the ball back 10m and then kicking it in the air.
Watched the fra eng highlights on iplayer this am. I suppose the one consolation for england fans is that aus and wales wont play anything like the one out power running forwards game that France did.

One of the problems with Cole is everyone thinks he is prime target for penalties, the refs think he is and the opposition will play on it. Every time he gets into a ruck players like macaw (who is the best professional cheat) will be all over the ref.
Right or wrong Cole is a know for getting penalties

Every time he gets into a ruck players like macaw (who is the best professional cheat) will be all over the ref.

How does he do this? England were guilty of not supporting their own weight on a few occasions. I hope the refs are strict on this at the world cup. Ireland and POM in particular are experts at this

England were guilty of not supporting their own weight on a few occasions.

It happened in every game I watched this last week or two. The refs seem to think it acceptable to clear a ruck by flopping onto the top. 🙄

Well Haskel andcCole got done for it yesterday

Two years ago England where one of the best at correctly clearing rucks and nicking the ball.
Now we come in from the side A lot and that's an easy give away and blatant. Sadly no ref is 100% true to the rules they all have little parts of the game they are spot on with or turn a blind eye with. Balls not going in straight on scrums is one.
As for macaw the guys never onside at scrums and he gets away with it most of the time. Great player and never far from the refs ear.

As for picking the final squad rather Lancaster than me.

anagallis_arvensis - Member

Most of the stats are pointless shite.

Couldn't agree more. If they'd put a tracker on Dean Richards back in the day I bet he wouldn't have run very far yet, magically, he always appeared in the right place at the right time.

Some modern coaches seem more interested in picking players based on their stats rather than watching how they actually PLAY.

Yeah, I was just hoping to see some stats from Burgess, Burrell and Slade for comparison.

Kick pass run stats on those 3 would be worth seeing. I would take Burrel he's no great shakes at 12 but is the second best 13 and a pretty damn good one. Which would mean 2 of Burgess, Baritt, Slade and 12 trees.

Slade and Barritt for me please a_a. Burgess shows promise but hasn't earned a place (certainly at centre) in "nearly" one game and the closest 12T should come to an england shirt is a family outing to sportdirect!

here you go , from the 2 france games, wrecker...

metres run:

Burrell 43, jj 60, May 9

Burgess 27, slade 12, May 124

http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/248675.html

http://en.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/248939.html

I've included may too 'cos i see that as one of the significant points.
Massive difference in his metres between the two games, more so than all the centres put together.

burrel may have almost doubled Burgess' metres, in a losing side too, but Sam ran 5 times and passed 5 compared to Luther ran 10 times and passed 1. It's not always about individual metres in the centres but about creating space and releasing outside backs which he seems to have a good knack for. Neither kicked at all
k/p/r for slade was 3,9,2 and for jj was 1,10,10

Also defence - tackles made - burgess 12 ( and a turnover), slade 2, burrell 2, joseph 4.
No contest really.

there's a lot of dislike for Sam, but in my opinion, he's England's ticket out of the group stage.
Wales throw big runners - Roberts, North, Cuthbert, jDavies(inj so A.nother) down the 10/12 channel on rotation repeatedly until they break through. England beat them last time by overloading their best back row tacklers in that space and negating the threat. nullify Wales there and the're not the team they can be from an attacking point.
Sam doesn't need to even offer in attack, his job would be to cancel the threat of Roberts and let England beat them elsewhere.
Is it coincidence that the biggest Sam haterz mostly seem to be Wales fans? (plus, maybe, a couple of snobs who don't like that "northern game" 😉 )

For the record, IMO England, Wales and Oz are all of a similar decent standard and could all beat each other on different days.
Lancaster's minimum requirement is to beat 1.
I don't see it as easier to beat Wales. But it is easier to predict where their treat comes from (dealing with it - North and Roberts running at you full pace - is a different matter), and so if you can put a 19 stone tackling machine in that position, you can at least give yourself the best chance.

Barritt is the best stopper in the england team, far better than Sam will likely ever be. North very very rarely runs inside (a frustration of Gatlands - he nearly dropped him for it), no JD2 so it's "just" the good doctor likely storming that channel and perhaps HP (more likely).
I'm by no means a Burgess hater (I'd have trialled him at 6), but he's not earned his slot by a long chalk. Others have been doing the biz at centre all season whereas sam was an abject failure at bath in that position.
I'd take Burrell, JJ, Slade and Barritt. I'd also find space for Cipriani in the squad. The timing of his passes is sublime; like those of Henson.
The may stats are largely irrelevant in this context - as one of only 3 wings left in the squad, he's going.

Who are theze welsh fans who dislike him? I alwaysthink we prefer the put upon northern monkey's.

I think Roberts would give Burgess a very hard time given some good ball. Roberts aint thick and wouldnt run straight at Burgess like the French did.

wrecker,
Agreed may's going, and Watson and Nowell.
The may stats weren't a comment on May. They were a comment on the centres inside him. 124 metres made with one pair, 9 with the other.

Agree about barritt , but he's injured until he's fit again. Sam is the next best defender. Burrell was roasted in the Not-heineken v roberts. Wouldn't really want to see the other option - 10,12,13 of Ford, slade, jj after an evening tackling the Welsh.
I'm not claiming Burgess is the best centre, just he's the best option in the Wales game to force a repeat of the victory from Febuary

Also JD2 may be out but Scott Williams is an able replacement.

Not JD2 though is he? Nothing against Williams, I'm a big JD2 fan. He's a game changer.

They were a comment on the centres inside him. 124 metres made with one pair, 9 with the other.

Burrell was roasted in the Not-heineken v roberts

No-one's calling Dr Roberts thick. Or shit. Or saying Williams is shitter than jdavies.
I think it's a mark of respect to the Welsh backs that Burgess is even involved, and being considered by Lancaster.
But I also think even Lancaster picking him wouldn't be claiming he's one of the best 4 centres. Just that he might just be the most appropriate tool for the job to nullify Wales biggest threats, and then try to beat them elsewhere on the park.
Even the biggest Wales fan would have to admit, it's got to be easier to predict how Wales are going to attack england than how Oz are going to attack England.
lancaster's got to try to come up with a way to stop at least one of them.

wrecker, so what do you take from the stats you requested now that you've seen the figures you asked for?

I seem to remember Scott Williams changing a game or two.

Even the biggest Wales fan would have to admit, it's got to be easier to predict how Wales are going to attack england than how Oz are going to attack England.

Nope, its just been the longest rope a dope in the history of sport. You wait for all the flowing backline moves to be unleashed on an unsuspecting world.....maybe....

Yah, he's good. But is he this good?

That try vs Ireland at 1.50......

Jiffy Jr is indeed a rare talent!

Nope, its just been the longest rope a dope in the history of sport. You wait for all the flowing backline moves to be unleashed on an unsuspecting world.....maybe....

I doubt it!
[img] [/img]

Wasn't he the fella who cried after trying to do BOD?

[img] [/img]

Williams is almost identical to Mini Jiffy. Less experienced but uncannily similar.

The irony of Roberts is that he is actually a fantastic gifted rugby player and the coaching/ game plan really does him a disservice sometimes. People often think he is the death of a flowing Welsh backline. The difference in how he plays for Wales the majority of the time and how plays when given some extra freedom and doesn't have to play the percentage game is huge. The pairing with Jaque Fourie for the Barbarians is one of my favs

Pmsl at the Welsh Fanboi's implying we are 3rd to the two teams we have beaten recently, one of which even resorted to a choir / R&B mixtape to assist.

One shitty French game doesn't make a winning or losing team.

Oh,Kryton is coming out swinging! He has also just called the mostly England supporters bemoaning the England performance "Welsh Fanbois" Is he [b]pudding[/b] pressure on his own team to beat the [b]Welsh[/b]?

one of which even resorted to a choir / R&B mixtape to assist

Have you heard the pathetic dross piped around the Cabbage Patch after a try to get the Library to make any noise at all?

There's some weird English infighting going on! English fans suggest (correctly IMO) that big Sam doesn't deserve a WC spot and they get labelled Welsh Haterz and now English fans express feelings of uncertainty after some poor games and get called Welsh fanbois 😯 😆

Loum appeared to be more of a Welsh than English name to me. Perhaps I am mistaken? 😆

I'm a Welsh fanboi?
Ooooo shit myself have you? Sorry, it's the only Welsh I know. I tried to say go morning once; apparently it's not pronounced "borrow your dog"

Pmsl at the Welsh Fanboi's implying we are 3rd to the two teams we have beaten recently, o

WTF are you talking about? We were discussing the relative merits of certain centre combinations. Why dont you get back to worrying about which car to get.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/san-francisco-49ers/0ap3000000515105/Hayne-muscles-for-34-yards

Ex league olayer in nfl