[Closed] 2013/14 Rugby Thread

It is not necessarily the International level coaching that is the issue it starts way before at school level and the very basics of draw the man and pass, straighten the line of attack etc which are not ingrained in any of the home nations.

NZ rarely do anything that flash. They just do the basics exceptionally well. Everything is quick, accurate and they always have players in support (and others running dodgy blocking lines) it makes it all look very easy.

Not necessarily sucks, but I think the culture is wrong. The players aren't somehow genetically inferior to those from NZ or SA.

Yeah I agree that they are not genetically inferior, so I guess it must be down to coaching or earlier training like ijs445ra says.

NZ's very best athlete's play rugby as it's their number 1 sport, SA is pretty similar in that regard. There are lots of other distractions in England and Scotland. I would say Wales get's a pretty good crack at the best sportsmen although clearly football is still a major draw.

I would not say any of the 6 Nations are at the same level as NZ or SA athletically.

As for the coaching debate, as I posted England looked very rusty and with a lot of new players in important positions and Farrell having a poor game. I think England have a very good chance of winning the upcoming 6N, you don't do that with poor coaching.

I think England have a very good chance of winning the upcoming 6N, you don't do that with poor coaching.

Rob Howley would suggest otherwise.

Yer, even I think this a fantasy.

England had a decent shot at winning it last year and I think we will be stronger this time round. Plus the fixtures are easier as we have Ireland and Wales at home, unless there is a huge change in form we'll beat France away quite handily, so barring the traditional banana skin at Murrifield we have the two "deciders" at home.

I am the biggest england fan, and as one eyed as you can get, but I have not seen an England performance recently that is sure to beat wales or ireland on a Rose wilting mission. Of course they need to be in the right mood, but there is nothing like England setting themselves up for a glorious win to motivate our so recently downtrodden neighbours..

When did England last beat Wales in a competitive game? England at home yo wales is 50:50 I would say. England were comprehensively demolished by wales last season.

Of course they need to be in the right mood, but there is nothing like England setting themselves up for a glorious win to motivate our so recently downtrodden neighbours..

Y'see, I'm not sure quite how this is meant...

That's the joy the sporting "bar talk" !

England to win against Argentina (possibly a messy game but clear ahead by the end), get trounced by NZ and then 6N champions (edit: including beating Wales, last year in Cardiff was a fine win but it won't happen again in 2014)

Indeed, things have been looking shaky vs wales since at least 2011..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_rugby_union_matches_between_England_and_Wales

Y'see, I'm not sure quite how this is meant...

ijs445ra - Member
NZ rarely do anything that flash. They just do the basics exceptionally well. Everything is quick, accurate and they always have players in support (and others running dodgy blocking lines) it makes it all look very easy.

+100

Jambalaya - now we were sitting next to each other on Sat. Can we say the same thing about England? Remember how the back lines were (not) lined up, how many passes were made blind or dropped, how throwers and jumpers were not on the same planet. These are guys at the pinnacle of the game who are missing basic skills and the coaches have to take some responsibility, don't they?

Remember Woodwards TCUP that was drilled into the 2003 team and look at our recent panic attacks!!

Why do the Irish, Welsh and French have the ability to run the lines we can only dream of? Are they better players, do they just all play together more often, are they coached better? A combination of these and other factors?

AA - 2010 and 2007 weren't bad for the men in white - you boys dont have it all your own way!!!

When did England last beat Wales in a competitive game?

To wind you and AA up of course. xx

Ah right I see now.

If I were an England player, I'd be plenty motivated playing against the green machine. They've only won three of the the last ten 6N games against them. And two of those were the last two. 😛

Didn't they ruin your last grand slam? Mind you, you did dump them out of the RWC....

@teamhurtmore - I said we were rusty. When you win playing poorly that's a good sign right 😕

@wrecker - Wales have won the last two, England the two before that (the two games in the middle where non-competitive RWC warm upas which were shared 1-1)

Lets hope so. Plus Parling back in the Line Out, the mad Kiwi biter starting and Tuilagi back in centre, we might play a bit better come the 6N.

Odds on us beating the AB again!!!???

wales have won the last three, you can't hide the statistics because its a different competition. Look I am not trying to defend wales, I want us to beat them every time, but lets not be lame about this.

Is Tui back then? I thought he was out?

Not yet, just hoping for the 6n. But I don't know tbh!!!

Why do the Irish, Welsh and French have the ability to run the lines we can only dream of? Are they better players, do they just all play together more often, are they coached better? A combination of these and other factors?

wales dont do much other than run straight. Davies and Roberts dont pass well but at least they run straight. Englands backs dont run straight other than Tuilagi and so all ths spacd for the back three is lost. The all blacks run straight and pass before or afted contact. Its why I love Henson whdn he's going wsll he draws defenders in by running straight and attacking the inside shoulder and then pass well.to playeds in space. Its simple things done well, and makes players around him shine.

In other news Ryan Jones fit and not in the Wales 23. End of an era?

Be nice to Eli do some of this on his debut

Just got round to watching the weekend's highlights.
Christian Wade just has to be in the Engalnd squad!

Really good to see Walker start. Watching him run is quite strange as his legs never seem to move that fast but he has a massive stride and massive step which takes him about 10 meters away from the tackler before anyone has even noticed 😀

NZ rarely do anything that flash. They just do the basics exceptionally well.

Totally agree. They just do exactly what needs to be done at exactly the right time. The skills across all positions are also exceptional and I think a lot of it comes from the freedom they seem to be given at all levels of the game which can be seen watching club rugby. When they have grown up with freedom to play it is natural to do things which would be considered exceptional by other nations just because it happens so naturally come game time. England have a significant player base and resources but I feel the objective culturally in general is more to not lose than to go and win and let loose. It is just a different approach from the lowest level to the highest

Wade's tries well taken Dez, but one was a telegraphed switch move poorly defended and the other a sprint down the line past a few forwards. Not miffed at all, oh no 😕 😆

Devilishly god scores both of them.

England were comprehensively demolished by wales last season.

Any of you lot should worry about your teams,up here they are stressing how big a task beating Japan will be in the press,fricking Japan! 😡

[i]one was a telegraphed switch move poorly defended and the other a sprint down the line past a few forwards[/i]

When was the last time Ashton sprinted past [i]anyone[/i]?! 😆

I dont want to talk about Japan 😳

When was the last time Ashton sprinted past anyone?!

Q at the Toni and Guy concession on Debenhams blue cross day?

@duckman - I like that !

15-Pat Lambie, 14-JP Pietersen, 13-Jaque Fourie, 12-Jean de Villiers (captain), 11-Bryan Habana, 10-Morne Steyn, 9-Fourie du Preez; 8-Duane Vermeulen, 7-Willem Alberts, 6-Francois Louw, 5-Flip van der Merwe, 4-Eben Etzebeth, 3-Frans Malherbe, 2-Bismarck du Plessis, 1-Tendai Mtawarira
Replacements: 16-Adriaan Strauss, 17-Gurthro Steenkamp, 18-Coenie Oosthuizen, 19-Pieter-Steph du Toit, 20-Siya Kolisi, 21-Ruan Pienaar, 22-JJ Engelbrecht, 23-Willie le Roux 

looks big and scary

Interesting they've put Le Roux on the bench. I've always thought he was very over-rated (especially by himself).

Seabass retires.

Great player for Sale and France amongst others.
[url= http://www.espn.co.uk/france/rugby/story/204907.html?CMP=OTC-RSS ]Seabass[/url]

Aside form perhaps discipline it is hard to pick a weakness in that SA starting 15

Also I think the S.A. mindset is a tiny bit fragile, the last game against the Kiwis they threw everything at them and the Kiwis didnt buckle, the heads went down a bit. You could ask questions about how fit they are. Sonunds ludicrous I know but they are so huge how do they play there uber physical game for 80 minutes. They do seem to fall away for the last 10 or so.

Hey I could be just clutching at straws 😆

With some cleverly applied rough stuff, you could get half of that pack sent off or binned 😀

England: M Brown (Harlequins); C Ashton (Saracens), J Tomkins (Saracens), B Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby), B Foden (Northampton); O Farrell (Saracens), L Dickson (Northampton Saints); J Marler (Harlequins), D Hartley (Northampton Saints), D Wilson (Bath Rugby), J Launchbury (London Wasps), C Lawes (Northampton Saints), T Wood (Northampton Saints), C Robshaw (Harlequins, capt), B Vunipola (Saracens).

Replacements: T Youngs (Leicester Tigers), A Corbisiero (Northampton Saints), D Cole (Leicester Tigers), G Parling (Leicester Tigers), B Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), B Youngs (Leicester Tigers), T Flood (Leicester Tigers), A Goode (Saracens).

Foden in for Yarde WTF why play a FB out of position when you have perfectly good wingers available?

Eli Walker out of Saturadys game with another hamtstring injury.

Yarde and Wade injured. Surprised Strettle hasn't been called in, he must be threaders.

Oh god. Not looking forward to that at all.
Can only assume the decent backs are being saved.

Yeah, 2 fullbacks against Argentina cos they are such an attacking threat. Pooh.

I'm more concerned with the problems at 9-10-12 than who's on the wing. Foden is a very good player; pacy, elusive, good tackler and intelligent.
Focussing on the wing is overlooking the major issues IMHO.
Marler is a worry too. Looks like Cole is being given a kick up the jacksie.

wrecker - Member
With some cleverly applied rough stuff, you could get half of that pack sent off or binned

Posted 4 hours ago # Report-Post

And a wee memorial stone outside your national stadium with the phrase " Died in action."

A reprieve for Ashton then with Wade and Yarde injured. If they were going to play the likes of Wade, i'd have now stuck Jonny May in some where instead of Foden. There again with the liability on the other flank they appeared to gave gone for the solid option. Having said that wasn't Foden's tackling, or lack of, one of the reasons he got dropped in the first place?

Having said that wasn't Foden's tackling, or lack of, one of the reasons he got dropped in the first place?

Gutted for Walker, thats what did for his first cap last season. I expect we will see Liam Williams and his angry face on the wing now. Shame he's a bit shit because I love his captain angry death or glory attitude.

Is Williams (pint sized Scralets wing?) in the Welsh squad?

Does Lancaster's selection mean that Ashton is the only fit and capable winger in England at present 😯 ? What message does that send to Strettle, May, Sharples etc that if two wingers are injured he would rather play an FB out of position?

As was said above I think it will be largely irrelevant who is on the wing if 9-12 play as they did last week. I dont think you should change whole back divisions at once, but Lancaster could have perhaps tried a new centre combo and given dickson and Farrell 40 mins to prove their worth or started Youngs and Flood to try and get better and more ball to 12T, Tomkins and the back 3.

I think Trinder got injured again anyway - dead leg.

I do like the look of the English tight 5 mind,that is starting to take shape nicely,Corbisiero(sp) still to add.

Aside form perhaps discipline it is hard to pick a weakness in that SA starting 15

Perhaps a slight defensive weakness in the back 3... but then I'd only really say that with the big lump Cuthbert keeping North company on the wings.

I expect we will see Liam Williams and his angry face on the wing now. Shame he's a bit shit because I love his captain angry death or glory attitude

He's not that shit. Solid tackling especially the last gasp type stuff, great under the high ball and guaranteed to piss off lots of SA team. I think it is only because his angry face and niggly attitude is just so awesome that it is easy to overlook the other parts of his game 😀

What is worse than a few Scarlets coming in to the team is tons of Scarlets coming in to the team! The back line is from out West almost. Can the Scarlets beat SA.... 😯

Apologies if this has been done already, but...

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/24838490 ]Adam. [/url]

He's not that shit. Solid tackling especially the last gasp type stuff, great under the high ball and guaranteed to piss off lots of SA team. I think it is only because his angry face and niggly attitude is just so awesome that it is easy to overlook the other parts of his game 

He's a decent full back but his positioning and defence on the wing v NZ was crap last year. Still he is a stroppy **** and brave to the point of reckless it will at least be funny seeing him putting it about v SA.. Cant see Wales winning. SA have the same gameplan based on bosh and they are bigger. Would need to see Gethin role back the years and Bradley Davis step up to be the player he threatenned to be a few years ago to stand a chance. Without Ian Evans or Girafferis the lineout is a worry too.

You see this is just madness, Wales gave England a stuffing last year, on form if anyone can beat SA its you lot.

As seen in the AB game, SA are a tough team but anthing can happen at the millenium. Wales are on form, full of quality and high on confidence. They can beat them. Whether they will is a different matter.

Toys its not madness its quite simple england<wales<SA

Oh and where are these on form welsh players? Roberts and Cuthbert are broken, Lydiates not picked for his club, Phillips is pissed and the rest play shite for shite teams.

Yeah, they were all shit on the Lions tour weren't they? It was only 3 odd months ago FFS.

Malherba and du plessis together there's the SA weakness.

Wales to win all 4 Autumn Internationals, followed by an impromptu referendum on Welsh devolution with a subsequent landslide election to First Minister for Adam Jones. 😆

Wrecker you dont think top professional sportsmen peak? What happens after the peak? Very few of them are currently playing well.

Surely they can plateau, too?

I dont think you understand the term "peak".

A question.
Saw today that Sale have signed defence coach Mike Forshaw on a 2yr contract, as Sale have the 5th strongest defence in the Premiership (currently) he's obviously doing something right.

So, why are we putting so much faith in RL defence coaches at both club and National level when from the SL games i have seen defences are awful?
I see wingers coming in to double (or even triple) tackle the ball carrier and leaving a whole for the oppo wing to stroll through, why the fascination with RL defences?

Dont know but Edwards is pretty good.

I dont think you understand the term "peak"

No, of course I don't.

Ever heard of the phrase, "Form is temporary, class is permanent"?

Maybe you should have more faith in the current Welsh squad? You seem to play down Welsh chances. It's almost like you are hedging your bets.

I hope Wales win but its unlikely and I dont expect it. This is based on an understanding of rugby. I'll love it if they win but it'll be a shock. I fail to see how anyone who understands the game could be any more than hopeful of a welsh win. Could you explain how you think a wales team who havent beaten anyone any good for ages will beat the second best team in the world.

Ah, you old romantic you. I believe we have a side capable of beating SA on Saturday. That's also based on an understanding of rugby. 😉

Where do you see Wales being better?

"An understanding of rugby" means you can't predict what will happen!

However, I also [i]think[/i] SA will win, but I bloody hope not!

With our starting pack I believe we should edge the scrum & breakdown. Not so confident about the line out but if AWJ stays on, we should be OK. If Hibs can throw straight (and the roof stays closed!), Warbs may be used a bit more at the tail.

Backs-wise, Habana has some form and du Preez is class. However, if we kick from hand well and chase better, we have a very capable trio at 10-12-13 who can make things happen.

That may not tally with your understanding of rugby, but it's an understanding nonetheless.

Physically we are a match for them. Mentally, we can only beat ourselves.

This is based on [s]an understanding of rugby[/s] total arrogance

Arrogance to think SA are the better team. Come on Toys try harder.

With our starting pack I believe we should edge the scrum & breakdown. Not so confident about the line out but if AWJ stays on, we should be OK. If Hibs can throw straight (and the roof stays closed!), Warbs may be used a 

lot of ifs and getting shit chucker to chuck long doesnt seem like a good idea. Problem is both Bradley and AW are front jumpers.

Let's just say it would be a big surprise for Wales to win. Not enough of the main players in the squad and it would take all of the main men in Wales to be in form to out bosh the masters of bosh. Wales's approach lacks subtlety and I can't see SA struggling to deal with that. In the recent matches against SA Wales have played very well and absolutely dominated large portions of the game yet SA just weather it and keep the points ticking over

Wales have a chance but i think they need to try and play smart and not try and go toe-to-toe with SA. The SA pack is massive the backrow in particular i would suggest is a fair bit more powerful than Wales. I think Wales need to look to play at pace use the speed advantage of their backrow to get the ball away from the ruck before SA can engage and slow it up. I dont see Wales winning an arm wrestle. Philips needs to be sharp and get some quicker passes out and keep the SA pack moving.

I would like so see North running at Steyn/Du Preez off set pieces because i dont see Wales getting much joy through the centres, De Villiers for me is up there with Conrad Smith and BOD as one of the best centres in the game and Fourie was always good to watch before he dissappeared off to Japan i dont see Davies and Williams getting much out of them.

Hoping to watch a cracking match in the comfort of being a neutral 😀

Be afraid, be very afraid...
[img] [/img]

Is the Wales game on council telly; it is just I have been waiting for BT for two months to fit t'broadband and am starting to hanker after a wee bit more than the Sunday highlights show.

BBC 2 17:30 or S4C if you prefer

Scotland v Japan and Ireland v Samoa are on red button

ijs445ra - Member

As was said above I think it will be largely irrelevant who is on the wing if 9-12 play as they did last week.

toys19 - Member
You see this is just madness, Wales gave England a stuffing last year, on form if anyone can beat SA its you lot.

This year, wasn't it? Just a matter of months ago in fact.. 😛 😉

Posted 15 hours ago # Report-Post

DanW - Member

Let's just say it would be a big surprise for Wales to win.

Very true but if they don't start competing with the big teams this year then they aren't going to be in any position to compete in RWC in two years time. Leaving it until next year to unleash surprise victories is cutting it too fine.

Just got back from Welford Road, thought we were gonna get stuffed as all the the development lads were playing, not sure who Ospreys ran out but they looked pretty poor. Ospreys complete bench was used up, hopefully no long term injuries.

Ex Scarlets Owen Williams played well and hooker Harry Thacker was superb, future England #2 I reckon