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Cipriani for England I say 😀
Can't see it happening but he seems to have sorted himself out is playing very well indeed.
Mr Phillips is coming to Paris, Racing Metro app says so. Lions partnership at 9 and 10 then.
9, 10 and 12!
[b]anagallis_arvensis[/b] - Member
9, 10 and 12!
So @aa big points for you not pointing out you'd seen Phillips was going to Racing 4 hours before I posted. Most kind of you.
Racing posted that they'd be speaking to Phillips about next season already and that the Bayonne incident just accelerated things. It's seems he may possibly play against Quinns. On a related note Racing are playing that game in Nantes, why play a home game 3 or 4 hours away, is your Parisian home support really going to travel ?
9, 10 and 12!
... and Jon Davies will be partnering Fofana in the centres at Clermont Auvergne which should be fun for the opposing centres! Let's not foget Priestland could end up with him too.
It isn't great to see so many Welsh heading for France but some of the partnerships and combinations are looking exciting.
It was interesting to read Jon Davies's various interviews and he said that the best games he has played have been in European Cup competitions and that is something that particularly attracted him to Clermont. Something that doesn't get too mentioned (at least by the players for obvious reasons I guess) is the relative weakness of the Rabo and general lack of success of the Rabo teams (Irish excluded) in Europe. I guess the feeling you don't have too much to play for at a club like the Scarlets must be setting in which is a real shame for a league in need of a boost. The flip side to that is that playing week in week out in a more competitive league with more pressure to play and perform for the club than they might be used to could be mentally and physically fatiguing. It might be a complete misinterpretation but I can't see a team investing half a million a year in him being as accommodating to rest and so on as one would imagine the Scarlets are. Could be way off base but just a thought...
Just checked the Clermont squad... Davies doesn't just have Fofana to partner in the centres but Regan King, Benson Stanley, and Rougerie. Even if one or two leave with Davies arriving it is pretty ridiculous the talent some of the French squads have.
lay and perform for the club than they might be used to could be mentally and physically fatiguing. It might be a complete misinterpretation but I can't see a team investing half a million a year in him being as accommodating to rest and so on as one would imagine the Scarlets are. C
no shit Sherlock! Scarlets are funded by WRU so do as they are told.
Cipriani for England I sayCan't see it happening but he seems to have sorted himself out is playing very well indeed.
Dallaglio said something similar on BTsport's rugby show. Said he was playing better and more consistently than other players further up the England pole.
Whilst i'm glad he's got his act together and is both playing well - and playing as a team member - i don't think he'll get a look at an England shirt and i'd rather he was with Sale TBH. We need him and his style doesn't appear to be what Lancaster wants. I'm just happy we have a 10 who can get things going a bit.
molgrips - MemberWhy did cooper bite him,couldn't he reach spikeys balls with his free hand?
Too busy trying to retrieve the actual ball?
Bottom of a ruck is not really the natural habitat of 10's is it?
A_a, I just wonder if the big name players making the move realise the different demands from the club's they're likely to face. They must have it in the back of their minds but I imagine the demands could come as a bit of a shock having had a comparatively easy life in the regions
Can't see it happening but he seems to have sorted himself out is playing very well indeed.
He is outstanding at the moment for Sale. His all round game is excellent even his tackling 🙂
Full house on Saturday. Try, conversion, penalty and drop goal 😯 we still lost 🙁
The current trend to go to France is interesting from the perspective that "originally" you did so on the basis you where giving up playing internationals based upon the selection rules (either written or implicit). So for a lot of players that meant extending their career whilst earning very good money. It was also good for the clubs as they could field strong teams when other sides where weakened by international call ups.
What's different here, certainly with the Welsh is they hope to be selected for Wales and would seem to have a reasonable basis for doing so. I think it's fair to say most of the English don't expect (or even want ?) to be picked.
It would be a bit bloody difficult to pick a wales squad without any of the foreign based players. Presumeabke the reality is the wages in wales from playing for regions and wales dont get near to m matching the offers to play in France so a family man who wants to provide for his family may turn his back on team wales or at least take the risk. I imagine the differential for the English is less stark hence why less current england players have gone.
AB's cleaned up at the IRB awards.
New Zealand number 8 Kieran Read has been named the IRB Player of the Year 2013. The All Blacks were named IRB Team of the Year for the seventh time and Steve Hansen the IRB Coach of the Year for the second year in succession.
New Zealand won all 14 of their Test matches during 2013, a feat that has never before been achieved in the professional era.
AA, I thought that the welsh regions had a higher salary cap than the English clubs? I know the Irish certainly do. However, if this is true, why is it manly welsh players going? Theres certainly talent in the English league that seems to stay around.
Wales would struggle if an overseas rule was enforced,don't have enough quality players to choose from.
Just a few injuries and they have to drag them out of the academy to play.:-)
It's a constant struggle for strength in depth.
Scotland is the same England have few more players to choose from so not such a deal if they play overseas.
[img] 
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Havent got the figures but I'd be utterly astonished if the ospreys and scarlets together squad cost as much as Saffercens alone. The Irish players get a massive tax break. The welsh players are going due to the size of the pay packet.
I don't think it is any surprise why the Welsh are heading for France- Money. Since most in the first team are multiple 6N winners and successful Lions their stock has never been higher too. Time to cash in.
What's different here, certainly with the Welsh is they hope to be selected for Wales and would seem to have a reasonable basis for doing so. I think it's fair to say most of the English don't expect (or even want ?) to be picked.
As others have already said, the idea of a current international heading over and trying to combine increased demands at club level compared to playing in the regions (less control over rest periods for example, possible management of injuries, increased pressure to play injured, etc) on top of maintaining a high level of form come international time is somewhat new and more of a worry.
Ive been having a hunt around, and (yet again) I'm wrong
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wales-rugby-regions-agree-salary-1801638
Wales £3.5m, Engladshire, £4.2m (cap - not the same as spend), however I can't see how Saracens, Bath, Leicester, Hairyquims and Northampton stay under it, so possibly 30% more? That's quite a bit more per person, so I can see why it happens.
The other factor is how much do current england players get paid for playing for england compared to welsh players playing for wales.
@aa - yes I think this is a big factor. If you're in the England setup then the financial incentive is to stay in England, once you are outside from choice or not being selected then France looks very attractive, as I understand it there is no salary cap in France.
@tinybits I have no doubt there are all sorts of swerves in play to stay under the cap
The new deal, which was brokered by the RFU, the Rugby Players' Association (RPA) and Premiership Rugby, will reportedly see each member of an England matchday squad receive a £7,000 match fee, a £7,000 image-rights payment and a new £1,000 training fee.
It is understood that previously they received a match fee of around £9,200 and a win bonus of approximately £3,000.
Flood could be off to Toulon... he doesn't seem too fussed to be playing a bit part in the current England set up:
"I imagine a move [overseas] would probably rule me out of England. For me, it is no longer about whether a move might further my career.
"It is about where I feel comfortable, about who I enjoy hanging out with and where I'm living."
Have we done the [url= http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/regan-king-return-scarlets-after-6368764 ]Return of the King[/url] yet?
Almost certainly coming back to join Easterby's coaching line up, I reckon.
Hadn't spotted that CFH, thanks. Perhaps part of the deal to let Jon Davies head the opposite direction?
Also talk on the same site that Byrne could be headed for Newport. Byrne did seem to be one of the more peed off players having been overlooked for Wales despite his move to France. He seems more determined to play international rugby than some of those heading abroad so perhaps a move back could actually happen- age isn't on his side though so you'd imagine if there is an offer to stay in France (perhaps there isn't) then it would be more sensible to take the extra pennies
The above Flood quote is in todays times...attributed to Graham Rowntree.
I saw the flood quote [url= http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/rugby-flood-pondering-future-075625027--spt.html ]on Eurosport[/url]
They make it sound like a direct quote from Flood himself but I'd trust Duckman over Eurosport's dodgy reporting!
Hibbard next one to leave Wales
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25229561
gone/going 15
a few pages back we were discussing a complete team of welsh exiles but had no hooker... seems that'll be fixed
Byrne
North
Davies
Roberts
Brew
Henson/Robinson
Phillips
Powell (dubious)
Lydiate
?
Evans
Charteris
Mitchel/Effion Roberts
Hibbard
James/Gill
Hook misses out again!!
No English clubs in the Heineken Cup next year! The mess rolls on
But they aren't self funded so surely will have to toe the WRU line. Surely grandstanding by English premiership teams?
Surely grandstanding by English premiership teams?
Yes, I think the English teams are persisting with their negotiating stance which looks very weak without the French. H Cup games are sell outs, the replacements will not be.
Omnishambles.
french participation in HC is conditional of the English being in.
Suspect the english clubs have dug themselves a bit of a hole with their TV deal.
French cant be relied upon one way or the other as usual.
The Welsh in fighting appears to be using the opposing camps for leverage.
What do the fans want ? And do the clubs / governing bodies care?
http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/25255119
Cripes!
It's open war. The WRU seem to be acting like real assholes to the regions.
The HC will go on without the english, the FFR will make the French clubs play. God alone knows what the English clubs will do. The relationship with ERC is completely broken, and the BT deal effectively prohibits them from competing anyways. The only saving grace is that the BT deal leaves them no worse off than they were playing in the HC.
European Rugby. What do the fans want ? I want to see the best club sides playing each other. In the past few years that's meant Irish, French and English. I'd like to see the Welsh get a good club side or two together. Scotland and Italy can have a reprentative or two in the group stages but I wouldn't miss them of they weren't in. TV money is distributed based on how you do, ie where you place in the group and how far you go in the knockout.
Edit: Phillps came on but Rarcing got battered as did Northampton. Johhny had a bad day with his kicking and after Giteau took over the Exeter crowd where chanting "we want Johhny" excellent 🙂 [url= http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3822_9062174,00.html ]planet-rugby[/url]
The Heineken Cup thing is a shambles. No surprise really as money is starting to take hold of the game now.
Jambalaya, do you want to end up with a football situation where a few clubs have all the money and power, reducing the chances of smaller clubs ever being successful? Where the clubs have the power over the international game?
To me the international game is still the bit I enjoy watching the most. Possibly because with the invention of scottish and welsh regions there has been a loss of smaller clubs which now play at a lower level.. Progress maybe but not local for a lot of people.
Going forward there could be things learnt from things like the NFL system of trying to equalise the game so that the ones with the deepest pockets can't buy their way to the top.
Maybe because I'm scottish and we are always going to struggle I feel this way and possibly if I was a tigers fan I wouldn't.
Anyway. Decision isn't ours to make and we can only hope we are left with some kind of game to watch and enjoy.
the first part about Warburton leaving is just bad. The last two paragraphs are the really worry.
Seems Regional Rugby in Wales is terminal unless they join the EPL.
If the English will have them that is!
Maybe that's what WRU want,they could then set up new regions with central contracts same as Ireland.
They would then be fully under WRU control and i read somewhere that it could be just 3 regions, North,East and West.
My Guess is they will play at PYS West,Rodney Parade East and Parc Eirias North.
I for one welcome this change,we need to keep the best players in Wales,central contracts is the only way to go.
The infighting between the current regions and WRU is a joke and will kill the game in Wales.
Wearing my schadenfreude hat so happy that northampton scum got humped
Can someone explain what the WRU and regions are having a punch up about now, they are always squabbling about something.
punch up
[url= http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/05/wales-regions-legal-action-against-board ]Here [/url]
Ah cheers for that, so still about players contracts with the HC thrown in as well. I thought it might be something new.
In basic terms the terms the regions what a fair share of the team wales proceeds or they want to be cut free and have a go in a proper league that some fans may care about rather than the current status quo of having to release players player when the WRU want a game outside of the window, play players in positions team wales want them and not have achance of winning anything
Good weekend for the Irish provinces. Three resounding victories (Leinster's demolishing of Northampton was particularly satisfying - perhaps they're back with a shout for the HC this year) and a famous away victory for Connaught at Toulouse. 😯
@bruk - if I look back over the past 10 years of club rugby I have it say it's been pretty varied, different clubs and countries enjoying periods of dominance in domestic leagues and in Europe. International rugby is still the showcase, we are a way off what has happened in football and in any case internationals will always have more tv money than the clubs so a football situation is much harder to envisage.
@aa - certainly sounds worrying for Welsh game, the WRU must be the only organisation more political with more vested interests than RFU ! They haven;t really learnt anything from the period when their best players went to League.
Wales Rygbi at [url= http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugby-war-everything-you-6388161 ]War[/URL]
Pretty much explains it all.
An AP with Newport, Llanelli and Cardiff?
**** YEAH!
I'd like to see them protected from relegation for a few seasons but it would be a great return to old rivalries and I'd be happy to make the short hop over the bridge to watch brizzle play there (if we get back up).
A Bath statement released on Monday read: " Bath Rugby can today confirm that Gary Gold has left the Club with immediate effect."The decision was taken following a re-structure in the rugby department and with the best interests of both Gary and the Club in mind.
"No further comment will be made until it is appropriate."
The director of rugby leaves due to a restructure... hmmm.... 😕 Don't tell me he punched Henson too! 😀
Indeed wrecker and thats what the welsh think too! Irish, Italians and scots will be screwed mind. If I was irish I'd be very worried. Cant help but wonder if letting all the team wales players go has been to build up some spare cash and put pressure on wru. No one in wales cares about the rabo and warching Leunster reserves v ospreys.
It's a win/win surely?
The welsh fans return to their beloved clubs rather than the "regions". The AP gets additional spice with the welsh games. The welsh clubs (hopefully) get some good moneys and benefit from increased crowds (triple the prices when quins visit!) and hopefully BT dip their hands in their pockets. I'm sold.
There is no way Wales can resort to a club structure, Ospreys are the only region that married two clubs semi successfully The Blues alienated all the Pontypridd fans and the Scarlett's have always been a stand alone which is why the WRU had to bail them out. Newport kind of works but is the poor relation, they may have the best fan base though.
As an Osprey fan going to watch rugby at the Liberty is a miserable experience as it is a footy stadium and a crowd of 10,000 rattles around inside the place, gets full when playing the Scablets 😆
Hope they come up with something but someone is going to lose out big time, Scots Italians Irish Welsh take your pick.
They intent isnt to go back to clubs afaik. Its for the regions to jump ship. Ospreys v Bath at the library would be very different from ospreys leinster. Away support would help for a start.
I'm just quoting the link on walesonline. Don't blame me!
Cardiff Blues and Llanelli Scarlets are essentially franchises given out by the WRU through the Participation Agreement, while Newport Gwent Dragons are actually 50 per cent owned by the Union.If the PA isn’t renewed, then the WRU have indicated the regions would effectively cease to exist.
But Cardiff RFC, Llanelli RFC or Newport RFC would still exist and that could be the form the teams take in the Aviva.
Ospreys v Bath at the library would be very different from ospreys leinster. Away support would help for a start.
I'd go watch that. The osprey fans might be surprised to see a bristolian cheering their team on though!
From Gog perspective yes. 😀
We might get regional rugby quicker than we thought 😉
Don't think it will be plain sailing for the current regions as they will loose funding from the WRU.
They could struggle and if the WRU can entice some of the players to central contracts it could get very messy indeed.
It all depends on the deal they get in the premiership if they manage to get one that is.
Anyway it's clear RR in Wales is struggling so something has to change,interesting times ahead.
Who would centrally contacted players play for?
The Scarlett's were meant to cater for the gogs, who knew that gogs were into rugby 😉
Who would centrally contacted players play for?
WRU are still contracted to play in the Rabo for 2 more years,if the regions jump ship then the WRU are obligated to have teams play in the league so they need to form new teams for this.
These new teams will have the players on central contracts to keep them in Wales.
This is what the WRU want all along.
Word on the street is there will be 3 new regions east,west and north,so a strong possibility there might not be an Ospreys team if this goes ahead,Kerdiff Scalies and Newport will be in the premier and the new regions in the rabo.
It's also possible that the regions will sign the new agreement with the wru for another 5 years.
I
So where are these new clubs in Wales going to get players from? The WRU,who seem even more power mad than your average blazer,are rather unlikely to allow centrally contracted players to jump ship. Can't see them being too willing to fund them either. We are screwed mind,but in ten years you won't know as the 6N will have died as fall out.As things stand,how many of the Welsh teams are going to survive in the Prem without
I'd like to see them protected from relegation for a few seasons
Welsh can't compete with money that the top English sides have,even with a share of the BT money. If you expand the Prem to take another 3 Welsh sides,their cut is 38 million divided by 15...Surely less than the Welsh are funded by their Union.And for every Cardiff v Bath, there is a Cardiff v London Irish.
Of course the most competitive way would be to have a British league made up of the the top 8 from England and the top 4 from the Rabo, hang on; we can make that the top 5 so the Welsh get a team in... 😈 With a second tier of professional clubs involving the lesser lights such as Edinburgh,Cardiff and Zebre and two sides promoted and relegated each year.
I still can't help but feel that this is still a power play by EPL. There would be no more Exeters/London Welsh,which would be a shame. And ambitious English clubs would be screwed by the addition of 4 Welsh clubs clogging up the Championship.
If you expand the Prem to take another 3 Welsh sides,their cut is 38 million divided by 15
Where did you get £38m from? The BT deal is a LOT more than that.
There is no reason that the Prem couldn't take 3 or more sides (welsh or english). The PRL have been lobbying for it for ages.
Deal is 152 million,over 4 years =38 million.
It's still a good bit more that the WRU is paying them currently (£6.6m/four regions) but BT would have to increase the deal for an expanded AP, as has been stated elsewhere.
Which brings in the statement from Sky that they didn't feel the BT deal was worth the product. As I stated above, I still think it is grandstanding by EPL. Nor do I see how the Welsh clubs could survive or even be competitive without centrally contracted players. Up here the SRU refused to spend on the regions until Murrayfield was paid for (didn't use lottery) as a result it is only the last two years that they have been able to fund the two regions to begin to be on a par with the rest of the Rabo. Without the WRU money it would take the breakaway clubs 10 years to get on the same footing.
So here are my questions; how long do you propose they stay protected? How long will the lower clubs in England put up with it,can't see the likes of Bristol who have a prem set up buying into it.
When the dust settles and EPL wants the Hiney cup money again ,how many Welsh Prem teams will be in Europe.
If there are Welsh regions,where does the allocation of Welsh places go?
I think if welsh teams were playing in a meaningful league I reckon a few backers might appear. Ospreys, blues and scablets would do ok. Only one team goes down... they are all better than worcester or sale or reading
For arguments sake lets say the current regions go to the EPL and the WRU sets up some new regions, would the WRU and the Welsh clubs in the EPL then get together and have a friendly chat to negotiate the release of players for Internationals or will the WRU throw the dummy and not select anyone that plays for the EPL Welsh clubs?
If they did that then the cash cow of the 6N would dry up, who would pay to go and see a Welsh Team made up of players from Llandovery Crosskeys etc taking on england and getting humped by a 100 points, TV wouldnt pay to watch that, WRU would be a laughing stock.
I would hope the players would refuse to play in that situation as well.
None EPL Welsh clubs Welsh Exiles
Gavin Henson - Bath 😀
Lee Byrne - Clermont Auvergne
Luke Charteris - Perpignan
James Hook - Perpignan
Dan Lydiate - Racing Metro
Jamie Roberts - Racing Metro
Mike Phillips - Racing Metro
George North - Northampton
Paul James - Bath
Craig Mitchell - Exeter
Tavis Knoyle- Bath
Martyn Roberts - Bath
Rhys Gill - Bath
Jon Davies - Clermont (from 2014)
Ian Evans - Toulon (from 2014)
The Fridge - Sale
Waiting for a taxi!
Warburton
Hibbard
Priestland
And the above tells a lot about why the regions want to jump ship. Why is the WRU so skint?
Why is the WRU so skint?
Skint??
I think they are in the black at the moment,that's why their not affraid of the regions if it goes to court.
"Gentlemen, if you want to see the Webb Ellis Trophy going south yet again without a fight, you are going the right way about it"
[URL= http://www.espnscrum.com/heineken-cup-2013-14/rugby/story/208575.html#vlTZgOs1Aj3jcdRS.99 ]John Taylor[/URL]
I don't think the WRU is skint. It's still paying off the debt for the millenium, but arent poor by any means. A lot of fans never identified with the regions, hence the lack of support.
Essentially if there two sets of welsh teams; they would be competing for the best players, so the better off teams would have all of the welsh internationals anyway (better wages). If this ended up being the AP welsh teams then the WRU would need to negotiate release for internationals.
Sky would say that it wasn't worth it wouldn't they? To me, [i]their[/i] product isn't worth the money. I don't like them or Murdoch and I'm happy that their monopoly has been challenged.
So again, how will the clubs survive if the WRU keeps the regions? None of the English clubs do anything but lose money hand over fist. The French that they seem to envy are owned BY the likes of France's version of Murdoch. Of course the French have until December 31st to cancel their e158 deal...which could really throw the cat amongst the urban fowl,as the prospect of getting in bed with the French will mean all bets are off for the English.
None of the English clubs do anything but lose money hand over fist.
That's not correct. Exeter, Gloucester, Northampton, Harlequins, B*** and Leicester all recorded profits last season. Sale and Worcester nearly broke even.
Generally the clubs without a ground suffer;
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/aug/30/breakdown
Do you have more up to date figures for that? I find it incredible that Sale nearly broke even lat year bearing in mind they paid so much for such a large bucket of poo.
I hadn't realised quite the behind the scenes turmoil of the WRU and the regions. Completely understandable why players would head to England and France where there is at least a bit more stability and guarantee of some decent matches, not to mention the money etc. What Welsh international in their right mind would commit to a region with everything that is going on at the moment- there isn't really any guarantees for them about leagues/ cups they would play in, the structure of the clubs... what a mess.
Exeter have been in profit every year they've been in the AP. Gloucs and tigers in profit last season. Saints been in profit for 12 seasons running. Not so sure about quins and b*** though.
Anglo Welsh it is then! 🙂
Done deal apparently,5 m PA.
Best of luck to them and hope they can get the crowds back.
Gogledd Cymru in the Rabo!
Sounds good to me 😉
Got a link Beici?
I would be more likely to believe the piece in the times today that shows how close the various parties actually are. Are you sure the guy who started that thread isn't just reading off of here or YOU? 😀