[Closed] 2013/14 Rugby Thread

I don’t think the lack of a world class 10 is a Welsh or English thing as very few countries (only NZ and Ireland?) have what most view as a proper world class 10 at present.

I think there is a bit of a “Dan Carter factor” in the perception of every other 10 in that he is, and has been, so much better than the rest for the last however many years that we expect more from every 10.

I really rated Jonny W as an international 10 he never did a huge amount of flash stuff but by all accounts he is one of the harder working players in the game, so his tackling/kicking things he could practice were always top notch add that to good decision making and he looked better than almost everyone, until Carter appeared and moved the game on.

For me the best 10s still playing internationals are DC, Sexton and Cruden all generally do the basics very well, make good decisions and to varying degrees can produce bits of rugby magic that win games. Until the NH can overcome a fear of losing and the trend in over coaching our 10s are 90% of the time going to pick the safe option, we see it quite often that when a game is already won or lost the rugby gets better and the game more expansive.

On a different note I met Jim Hamilton once, the biggest human I have ever come across!

Living around here I see loads of rugby players and very few of them look huge. Alan Wyn Jones (coming out of Morrisons a few years ago on crutches..) didn't look as big as I'd have thought. But Justin Marshal (changing in the gym next to me) was considerably taller than me - I'm 5ft10" - and very polite. Nice guy but very aware that HE was the superstar! But I was surprised how tall he was.

My MIL refers to Shane as that lovely little lad, but I've stood next to him in the street and he isn't that tiny (compared to my 1670mm), it's just every one else on the field is massive.

The height/ size thing is very deceptive in rugby players. I certainly wouldn't go around believing every published height/ weight you see. Wiki has Shane as 1.7m and 80kg for example but having lived with an ex-Wales prop he just burst out laughing to read that (partly at the height, mostly at the weight) and said there was a lot of "bigging up" going on in the stats/ media 😀 I know Shane was more robust towards the end of his career but the stats are rarely accurate! Is it a short person thing to measure yourself in mm too? 😆

Also worth bearing in mind is that height isn't everything. Seeing Mike Phillips (thankfully non-aggro) shopping in Cardiff... it wasn't the height that was in any way intimidating but the fact he is so damn barrel chested. Same with the Toulon props who were walking around Cardiff recently- not huge in height but about as wide as they were tall! 😀

England and NZ teams

England team: Mike Brown; Chris Ashton, Joel Tomkins, Billy Twelvetrees, Ben Foden; Owen Farrell, Lee Dickson; Joe Marler, Dylan Hartley, Dan Cole, Joe Launchbury, Courtney Lawes, Tom Wood, Chris Robshaw (c), Billy Vunipola.

Replacements: Tom Youngs, Matt Mullan, David Wilson, Geoff Parling, Ben Morgan, Ben Youngs, Toby Flood, Alex Goode.

New Zealand team: Israel Dagg; Charles Piutau, Ben Smith, Ma'a Nonu, Julian Savea; Dan Carter, Aaron Smith; Tony Woodcock, Keven Mealamu, Owen Franks, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Liam Messam, Richie McCaw (captain), Kieran Read.

Replacements: Dane Coles, Wyatt Crockett, Charlie Faumuina, Luke Romano, Steven Luatua, Tawera Kerr-Barlow, Aaron Cruden, Ryan Crotty.

I dont think they were lying about Shanes height, he was defo taller than me..

I agree that height is not everything.

I normally quote 5ft 5, but did it there in mm for accuracy as it was pertinent to the discussion and as a self deprecating thing, otherwise I have to say 5ft 5 and 7/10 and everyone takes the mick for making the 7/10 so important..

[i]England and NZ teams..[/i]

I'm almost glad I'm not going to be able to watch it until Sunday night. We're getting squished.

I really rated Jonny W as an international 10 he never did a huge amount of flash stuff but by all accounts he is one of the harder working players in the game, so his tackling/kicking things he could practice were always top notch add that to good decision making and he looked better than almost everyone, until Carter appeared and moved the game on.

Wilkinson wasnt even the best ten in the world cup final,Larkham was better. Him going off when Ben who stood on his face made the difference. Excellent player a top class international but Larkham was better. He wasnt much better than Steven Jones.

What happen to Conrad Smith?

Meh Jonny W asnt even the best 10 playing in the British Isles, anyway I have made my thoughts on Wilkinson known way to often to bother going back over old ground.

Is Sexton that good??? never seen him do anything that special. Carter hasnt been at his best for a while, he is very composed though.

I thought Smith was on the bench, well that is what it said on the radio this morning.

Messam, McCaw Read wouldnt want to be Farrel 😆

What happened to Conrad Smith?

On sabbatical... awesome player

[i]I really rated Jonny W as an international 10 he never did a huge amount of flash stuff but by all accounts he is one of the harder working players in the game, so his tackling/kicking things he could practice were always top notch[/i]

You're not alone mate. I agree.
Although our 'factual knowledge' about rugby isn't quite up there with some 🙄

I think Conrad Smith has taken a sabbatical hasn't he?

On the subject of player size - I bumped into Ashton Sims the other day, one of the Fijian brothers playing in the RL WC. I'm 6'4" and 17st but my god he's a monster... Nearly walked straight into his chest!

I think the player size thing is starting to become an issue even in the amateur game. At the club I play at you've got such a mix of sizes. Small 5'6" 9/10st players playing against guys who are 6'6" 20st gym monkeys. One day someones going to end up seriously hurt.

However, i'm not sure how it could ever really be resolved. People suggest splitting the game up by weights but to me that ruins the whole game. In all the best teams i've played in/against its been big strong guys hitting great lines but its always a small wiry player pulling the strings from flyhalf/scrumhalf or cutting teams apart on the wings.

I think there will always be a place for small players in rugby but they'll have to adapt. Look at Will Genia, undoubtably one of the best scrumhalves in the world and he's mixing it with the biggest and best players in the world at just 5'8". The difference is he's built like a brick outhouse and is one of the strongest players in his team. Maybe thats the approach the small guys will go down in the future? Certainly the best scrumhalf i've ever played with was only tiny but was virtually a solid ball of muscle. Used to be amazing - impossible to tackle due to his height and as strong as an ox, bouncing second rows and props all over the park.

In terms of the result on Saturday I have to go with a NZ win, I look at the England backs and just can't see them offering anything at all. At least with Barrett and Tuilagi we had a nigh on inpentrable defence. Now we don't even have that! Pretty uninspired for 2015 atm i'm afraid.

By the way, first post on this thread so please be kind 🙂

Dez stop stirring please 😉

Me stirring?! 😆

Welcome Ekul

DezB - i will have you know my factual knowledge of rugby is far in excess of at least Andy Nicol? 😀

I can tell 🙂

Good points ekul.

However, the fact people like Genia have to be built like a brick outhouse to survive/ prosper kind of suggests the gym monkey element is still hugely important. Height, not really... but weight/ muscle yes.

Leigh Halfpenny was always hugely talented too but just look at the size of him lately. He has gone from quite wirey/ normal to a real defensive machine. No-one would doubt his or Genia physicality despite the height... but it did require quite a bulk up. I can only really think of people like Parra or Laidlaw who buck this trend on the international scene.

Also reminds me of seeing the Argentinian front row wandering around Cardiff a year or two back- not tall by any stretch of the imagination but balls of muscle as you say ekul!

Wales: Leigh Halfpenny (Blues); George North (Northampton Saints), Cory Allen (Blues), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Liam Williams (Scarlets); Dan Biggar (Ospreys), Mike Phillips (unattached); Gethin Jenkins (Blues), Richard Hibbard (Ospreys), Rhodri Jones (Scarlets), Bradley Davies (Blues), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Sam Warburton (Blues, capt), Toby Faletau (Dragons), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys).
Replacements: Ken Owens (Scarlets), Paul James (Bath), Samson Lee (Scarlets), Luke Charteris (Perpignan), Ryan Jones (Ospreys), Lloyd Williams (Blues), James Hook (Perpignan), Ashley Beck (Ospreys).

😯 Rhodri Jones 😯 Cory Allan 😯 .. Suppose Allan will fit with Gatlands plan A approach. I thought Beck did OK the other day, not got as good form as last season but I think he's a good player.

Gethin's 100th cap. He may not be playing at the level he once did but he's still an awesome player.

ijs445ra - Member

Welcome Ekul

DezB - i will have you know my factual knowledge of rugby is far in excess of at least Andy Nicol?

No, Nicol's got loads of knowledge but it's deeply enmeshed within his bigotry that he can't get it out sensibly. Sort of like a_a on an advanced rant but scaled up by 10. 😉

DanW - Member

Also worth bearing in mind is that height isn't everything. Seeing Mike Phillips (thankfully non-aggro) shopping in Cardiff... it wasn't the height that was in any way intimidating but the fact he is so damn barrel chested.

Pigface - Member

Is Sexton that good??? never seen him do anything that special.

Dan W - you also have to take into consideration the protection the likes of Parra gets (not so much Laidlaw) from the French pack. It negates the need to be particularly big. However, on the wings/fullback or even at 10 there is much greater exposure to the bigger boys so to speak. An example of this would be Courtney Lawes tackle on Parra a while back that dislocated his shoulder. Although that was a hell of a hit it does make you wonder whether a bigger built player such as Genia would have suffered the same injury?

Like I said though it is affecting the amateur game and its starting to become less about the game on Saturday but also about the amount of time they spend in the gym of a week which I think is a shame as its a huge barrier to entry.

True. Mind you, Shane claiming to be 80kg is funny.

well I am 90kg and shorter than him, muscle weighs more than fat, he is more bulky these days. Having seen him in the flesh I believe it.

Hopefully, due to the lack of suntan in this pic, aa will be able to stop himself from letting the swimmers go..
[img] [/img]

Some info from the team announcement:

Dan Lydiate is injured

Gatland: "At 10 the plan was to play one in the first game and one in the second. We will look at Hook next week and then make a decision on the Australia game.

"Rhodri has been training really well. We have been impressed with him. Scott Andrews is injured so again its a chance for a youngster.

Gatland: "We don’t want to inhibit them. When Rhys Priestland ran the ball from behind his own line that was really exciting. We want the players to express themselves."

Gatland: "Giving players experience for the World Cup is important, so this is our chance to give some players on the edge some experience."

Edit: also talk of Priestland to Clermont or Glos????

muscle weighs more than fat

toys19 - Member

Hopefully, due to the lack of suntan in this pic, aa will be able to stop himself from letting the swimmers go..

Which one are you?

🙂

edit: which one is you? Of the two of them.... I can't make that 4 word question sound right! More coffee needed.

I am both of them.

Muscle is denser than fat

Indeed which means for the same volume, it is an actual scientific fact that muscle weighs more than fat, which was was my implication.

Anyway I am happy to believe it. 80kg is only 12.5 stone.

Lydiate has an ankle injury, he always plays with heavily strapped ankles.
Hook will start with the other canon fodder v tonga... good luck mate!
I am presuming Samson Lee isnt starting due to his lack of fitness, Gatwards demand fitness from players first and foremost.. Lee is a tub of lard. Hope to see him get a half though... surprised James wasnt the one asked to switch sides

Ire team to play the crims

Ireland: R Kearney; T Bowe, B O'Driscoll, L Marshall, F McFadden; J Sexton, E Reddan; C Healy, R Best, M Ross; D Toner, P O'Connell; P O'Mahony, S O'Brien, J Heaslip.

Replacements: S Cronin, J McGrath, S Archer, M McCarthy, K McLaughlin, C Murray, I Madigan, R Henshaw.

DD will love the Lions scrumhalf being dropped for D4's finest 🙂 At least that crap flyhalf Sexton has made the team, phew!

toys19 - Member

I am both of them.

Muscle is denser than fat

Indeed which means for the same volume, it is an actual scientific fact that muscle weighs more than fat, which was was my implication.

Anyway I am happy to believe it. 80kg is only 12.5 stone.

You're absolutely right. I think my brain needs a nap! 🙄 (In my addled head I translated 80kg to somewhere near Adam Jones weight..)

Hadn't considered the cannon fodder aspect of Hook starting against Tonga 😕 Poor guy!

Is Ryan Bevington in the mix for Wales or injured at the moment? He seemed to be coming on nicely along with Paul James...

Just noticed... is Shane wearing Non's shorts? Size womens small perhaps? 😀

BlindMelon - Member
At least that crap flyhalf Sexton has made the team, phew!

Don't recall anyone saying he was crap, just a bit premature calling him world-class.

Don't recall anyone saying he was crap, just a bit premature calling him world-class.

We all know BMI is bollocks, and it is common for muscly people to be considered obese, so according to the BHF Shane is just in the obese range.
Given the level of bulking up he did towards the latter half of his int career I can't see how anyone can say 80kg is out range of a fit powerful rugby player of his stature.

[img] [/img]

Ha ha,according to that, the upper ideal weight for my height is 14.5 stone. I don't recall being less than 15 after the [b]age[/b] of 15 😀 when I pushed the boat out trying to get a sustained run in 1xv championship rugby I was fit as a butchers dog and 17 stone.

exactly, so for a typical rugby player will always be on the mildy obese range. For Shane to be just in the ideal weight range he would need to be bang on 12 stone...

just a bit premature calling him world-class.

I don't think it is. A winning Lions tour, 2 heine cups and a Rabo in 3 years is an excellent achievement. DC is the only flyhalf consistently better in the world IMO.

I don't think it is. A winning Lions tour, 2 heine cups and a Rabo in 3 years is an excellent achievement. DC is the only flyhalf consistently better in the world IMO.

But has he scored a try against england? If not he has failed to deliver!

Irish team looks strong.

On the Sexton topic, I don't think he does much that stands out as shockingly amazing but when you consider the consistent high level he has maintained for many years you can start to think of him a world class. A 10 that consistently does the right thing is almost more "world class" in my eyes than a hit and miss 10 with more X-factor. I wouldn't immediately think of Sexton as world class but when you compare him to the other 10's around at the moment it is hard to say he isn't right up there. Bit of an on the fence opinion I know! 😀

Irish team do look strong although I guess strength in depth is going to be the recurring buzz word around the squad, much as with Wales

The weight and BMI thing is funny 😀 Halfpenny is listed at 1.78m and 85kg, Priestland 1.83m and 87kg, Danny Care 1.75m and 85kg, Ben Youngs 1.78m and 92kg 😯 Quite a variation in players all seemingly of similar height yet their builds don't seem to correlate to their listed weight... it's all a load of nonsense 😉

Edit, mental note: Do not post up my height and weight then a BMI chart

Sexton must be at least 27 so I don’t think it is premature…I shall put my justification forward and await correction and education from my more knowledgeable betters. 😀

And please feel free to provide examples of players in any position you believe are world class and why. 😀

1. In the home nations context he is currently by a margin the best 10, hence why, even on this forum, he was first/only choice 10 for the Lions even Warren Gatland could not fail to pick him.
2. His game mgmt and control are consistently extremely good.
3. His place kicking is consistently good
4. Leinster v Northampton HC 2011(I think) I accept not an international but he is widely accepted as the main reason Leinster came back and won that match with a virtually flawless 40mins.
5. He is not as exceptional as Dan Carter but as I posted earlier I think Carter has raised the expectations, probably unfairly, of what a 10 should be like.
6. Just because there is a lack of competition does not mean you can’t be judged to be at a certain level.

Disclaimer: All the above is simply my opinion which I am sure can be proved both correct and incorrect by a GIF montage to music.

mmmmyeah but sometimes people can be heavier than they look. I'm about a stone heavier than the number 8 at my club but look nowhere near as big despite being of a similar height. Muscle and Bone density is a strange thing to try and accurately calculate in my experience.

Also in agreement re. Sexton. He is a brilliant player but is always at a disadvantage as Dan Carter has raised the bar for number 10's by such a huge margin! I'd say Sexton is on a par with Cruden (admittedly i've not watched the latter play much)

But has he scored a try V england 😉

I agree he's excellent.

Why are we arguing? With the exception of Carter, all 10's are crap,that why we have forwards.

According to the BMI chart I should be dead 😆

1000!

But has he scored a try against england? If not he has failed to deliver!

No, but he has scored a fair few pens and the odd conversion.

Wilkinson, did he ever score against england though?

Simon Danielli scored a try against England 😆

No, Wilko did not, and even you think he is crap QED.

Wilkinson is not crap but he is not "the walk on water" rugby god the media or england fans makes out. Arrrrrgggghhhhh must not get involved 😆

But has he scored a try against england? If not he has failed to deliver!

Alas not. He must be crap 😆

He did score all the points beating the boks with a broken hand though

Wilkinson is not crap but he is not "the walk on water" rugby god the media or england fans makes out.

Hear, hear!

Great place kicker, really good all rounder, but sadly had to do waaaay too much of the back row's job for them as Larry Dayglo was too busy showboating. Hill was the REAL star of that era for my money. One of the best back row players of a generation.

Has Gatling mentioned anything about the Argies being the team that Wales most like to beat yet?

Yeah, I mean how shit is wilkinson?!? Being a No.10 and doing the back row's job too. Average.

I played against Hill,well to be honest was on the pitch in a different strip at the same time. Best back row forward in the UK so far in the pro era.

On the above benchmark

Andy Craig has scored a try against England. (not getting to live that one down toys)
So has Rob Dewey.

Best back row forward in the UK so far in the pro era.

Agreed in full.

DD, not saying that Wilkinson is bad, as such, in fact, I rate him very highly. Just agreeing that he's not the sainted water-walker, as mentioned above! He certainly seems to be enjoying his rugby in the sunny South of France these days, and that's great to see!

I believe he was a personal friend of O'Flashearty's. Hill that is.

(not getting to live that one down toys)

Nothing to live down, I'm happy to help the blind see.

I did indeed play with him a loooooong time ago, at schoolboy level in a county side 'tis true! Used to bump in to him around Salisbury in the years after that, too.

Even then, he was streets ahead of the rest of us. Seriously impressive player.

Wilkinson has more WC winning drop goals than the whole of the other five of the 6N put together. 🙂

deadlydarcy - Member
I believe he was a personal friend of O'Flashearty's. Hill that is.

Posted 36 seconds ago # Report-Post

Did I read that he has already had a knee replacement?

No, my knees are fine, thanks. 😉

Wilkinson has more WC winning drop goals than the whole of the 6N put together.

This is the measure of a good player, only Wilko and that saffer dude who landed about a billion of them on us in the 90's.

Edit Jannie De Beer 5 bloody drop goals. Although the were not the winners, it was Joel Stransky who did the winning drop goalagainst NZ.

Andy Craig has scored a try against England.

No I haven't (see email addy)

Hill was indeed the man in 'that' backrow.

"That" back row was so good because of balance. They complimented each other.

Did I read that he has already had a knee replacement?

A quick search would suggest he has has a knee replacement at 36 years old 😯 It could be a uni rather than a total but even so he is going to be struggling after the undoubtedly several revision surgeries by as early as 50-55 years old 😥 Poor guy! Can't see much stopping him as he seems very active in fundraising and so on

CaptainFlashheart - Member

I did indeed play with him a loooooong time ago, at schoolboy level in a county side 'tis true! Used to bump in to him around Salisbury in the years after that, too.

Even then, he was streets ahead of the rest of us. Seriously impressive player.

Odd, I called you on this last time, and you retracted saying it was a different Richard Hill... 😉

I'll pass on your regards to him in the morning.

No, Wilko did not, and even you think he is crap QED.

reading not a strong point of yours is it.

so aa is this still friendly banter or have you reverted to type? Cos I am trying to keep this civil.

A-A, FFS, you may have the odd bit of abuse on here, Zokes, toys etc, but seriously, do you have any idea how you come across a lot of the time? You'll no doubt say 'prove it or 'show me where I said' or something like that, but really, it's the impression, as opposed to something direct.
I like this thread, but your ability to start an argument in an empty room really grates.

I know, I know, they all started it......

I really do not appreciate people taking what there mind thinks i have said and then chucking it back in my face. You can be as cival as you like but criticising someone for something they havent even said makes you a **** in my eye. If people dont like that then tough. And thats not aimed at you tinybits its aimed at the people who have such a myopic view of the world they cannot seem to work out what reality is.
Isay something along the lines of Wilkinson is a very very good player but Larkham was better and toys fails to read and just presumes I think he's shit. It says more about him than me imo.

No, you started what I thought was a reasonably amusing bit of banter about if someone scores against England or not based on a little meme you wanted to created to take the piss out of me.
Which I did not object to and ran with. Hence my Wilko comment, I thought it was funny a bit of a comeback on your pisstaking, and a good opportunity to not carry on arguing, every one else joined in too. I honestly for a minute there thought you might have taken a deep breath and considered that sometimes you can be a bit dismissive and abrasive, and that you would just try and keep the peace.

But then as it was a page later and you thought nobody was looking you decide to try and stamp your "rugby brain authority" on the thread again.

WTF are you talking about? I dont understand that.

To repeat for you two -"Roll Away"...... 😉

FFS, stop!

well THM and CFH, I had stopped, but AA could not resist another dig. I don't see why I should roll over and take it.

CaptainFlashheart - Member
FFS, stop!

+1

But only cause is like to see the thread continue. For sheer entertainment value please do carry on, but somewhere else still visible to us all.

Wilkinson was a superior 10 to Carter, just saying. He's not at that same level now but he's still better than Sexton and the rest in the 6N currently. Flood will stay in England till after the World Cup, Farrell could get injured and he'll still be picked in the squad so he'll get to play in a home RWC.

Flood will stay in England till after the World Cup,

Not sure about that, clearly 2nd place to player who's not even first choice English flyhalf [i]at his own club!![/i], and a lucrative deal from France beckons, plus he's out of contract next season.
If I were his, I'd go, safe in the knowledge that should Farrell be injured, he'll still get a call up, but probably won't be picked as a bench warmer.
Do i sound bitter? Well, I guess that's because I am!

Wilkinson was a superior 10 to Carter, just saying.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha just saying 😆

well THM and CFH, I had stopped, but AA could not resist another dig. I don't see why I should roll over and take it.

so I am supposed to accept you making up things about me even when they are pretty much the opposite of what I have said. I can only think you mind creates these things based on your own prejudice. Please dont try and paint a picture of me as an anti english bigot. I find that offensive.

When I say Wilkinson is a very good player and you bang on about me thinking he's shit I feel like you are trying to make me out to be something I'm not.

Look you have misunderstood me, I was trying to join in with what I thought was your banter.
Before you mentioned Wilko you you [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/201314-rugby-thread/page/29#post-5514132 ]said[/url] in response to others criticsim of Sexton:

But has he scored a try against england? If not he has failed to deliver!

Which to me (and my prejudiced mind) looked like a bit of low level banter aimed at me. So far so good.
Nobody responded to your witticism so 3 posts later you tried [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/201314-rugby-thread/page/29#post-5514163 ]again.[/url]

My prejudiced mind responded in kind a few times [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/201314-rugby-thread/page/29#post-5514186 ]here, [/url] and later on.

as did [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/201314-rugby-thread/page/29#post-5514251 ]Blindmelon[/url] and [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/201314-rugby-thread/page/29#post-5514284 ]duckman[/url], who took it a bit further.
My responses were good natured. As was my response to you

No, Wilko did not, and even you think he is crap QED.

So if you take the time to read this you will see my intention was different. Call it the Edinburgh defence, but I was just responding to a joke with another joke.

So I will apologise. [b]I am sorry[/b]. It was not my intention, so if I made you feel that I was trying to make out you were something you are not then that is my mistake.

Toys chapeau, good man.

AA please lets draw a line under this, this thread is such good value.

One of the reasons that england is so unpopular (for me at least), to listen to the media you would think that tomorrows game against the All Blacks is akin to a world cup final. All Blacks out for revenge, england pack to dominate, Carter to wear gold boots pah who does he think he is, bloody upstart. england for the win as thay have the psychological edge after giving them such a thrashing las year.

I havent heard anything about the other home nationas at all.

I havent heard anything about the other home nationas at all.

Caveat-I'm not defending it, just attempting to understand/explain:
This is down to a London/England centric media right? The media just respond to demographic, there are 53.5 million people in England, 5.3 million in Scotland, 3.1 million in Wales and 1.8 million in Northern Ireland. (Sorry Eire, cant find yours, I think its about 4 million, which makes 6 million Oirish). I expect this drives national news content.

I would say I cannot find anywhere that says they expect England to win, apart from the players and coaches. Which to be honest would be very disappointing if the players went on the pitch expecting to lose, they at least have to have the will to win.

BTW-upsets happen, who saw England's win against NZ last year coming? England were utter shite up to that day, and on the day they looked excellent. I do not expect lightening to strike twice, but it is an amusing fantasy.

Toys no need to explain I understand the demographics of it all but it is the British Broadcasting Corporation not the england broadcasting corporation 😆 I am a stranger in a strange land 😉

I wouldnt be surprised for another upset but I am crossing everything for the All Blacks to dish out a humbling with Lawes to get red carded, Ashton to be so embarrassed by his inept performance he voluntarily walks off the pitch and doesnt stop walking untill he reaches the sea, then carries on and Hartley to realise his error of turning his back on the country of his birth picks up the ball and carries it 40yds and scores an own try (if only that was allowed)that is what I want to happen on Saturday 😉